Why did Rust fail and what happened to all the JS skids who thought learning the nanny language was a shortcut to success?
“hiding” semantics in the type system makes coding anything a pain in the ass. most people look into a quick rust tutorial and then move on back to their main
>>109418482>Why did Rust failhow has it failed?its popularity keeps increasing and more and more projects are being made with it.
>>109418482>Why did Rust failWhat?>S skids who thought learning the nanny language was a shortcut to successWhat?
>>109420728>the vocal minority keeps screetching about it and more and more rewrites are being made with it
>>109418482>Why did Rust failRetard
rust is already being used in the kernel, i'm honestly impressed there are still people like op here
>>109420728I don't think that's objectively true. There aren't many meaningful projects built with Rust. In most lang indexes it's there with Delphi / Scala / Ada. The only difference is that everyone makes sure to mention their project is "written in Rust," creating the illusion that it's everywhere when it really isn't. Even in the Linux kernel, the amount of Rust code is extremely tiny. It doesn't seem to have seen the level of interest expected when Rust support was introduced.
>named after fungus that kills plants and renders crop toxic >punny to transistor oxide>synonymous with rusting sockets enshittification >that exactly is what critics of rust like Bryan Lunduke accuse Rust of overpromising and under delivering>also zealously the most sjw troon brigade uk dystopia loves rust
>>109421099>There aren't many meaningful projects built with RustYour post has been processed by Rust code in order to end up here.
>>109421099Rust is in firefox, android, chrome, windows, aws, python tooling and cryptography, cloudflare, etc.You'd actually have to try quite hard to avoid all rust-compiled code.
>>109421200it was processed by a larger amount of C code. what is your point?
why is op retarded?
>>109421350OP needs to make an engagement bait and get it screenshotted to reddit to validate his existence.
>>109420728>>109420734>>109420759>>109420855>>109421350explain how rust is not a complete failure.
>>109421426How is the image you posted shows its a failure?
>>109421335>what is your point?OP claimed that Rust failed.The other anon disagreed and said it's very popular.You claimed that it's not true because there aren't many meaningful projects built with Rust and Rust being everywhere is an illusion.My point is that it's kind of ironic to say it is not popular when the very same post you used to make that claim was processed by Rust code. This means that Rust is in fact popular enough to end up in multiple high importance, production projects, such as cloudflare, firefox, chrome, android, windows, etc and so you are wrong. It is everywhere.
>>109421426The burden of proof is on the person who makes a claim
Lean4 is what Rust wants to be but better.Lean4 is a functional programming language like Haskell but it doesn't have the useless syntax and type complexity of Haskell.However, it also supports its functions to be formally verified using its own language.So you can have functional code and formal verification asserting that your code is correct at compile time.
>>109421524>corporateniggers trying to force rust put it in all the forced corporatenigger softwarevery insightful
>>109421586Not an argument.
>>109421557>Lean4 is what Rust wants to beLean is managed language. Rust is a systems programming language.They are fundamentally different. You can never reach Rust level of performance with Lean.
>>109421594>cloudflare>windows>chrome>high importance>all forced normalnigger software for which better alternatives exist without using rust>all corporations involved in the rust foundationjust because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not an argument.
>>109421636>>all forced normalnigger software for which better alternatives exist without using rust>>all corporations involved in the rust foundationThat's orthogonal to the previous argument.
>>109421524>bringing up kikeflare as an argument for rusti don't care to even have a discussion with you, much less an argument.
Lean is functional, which can be slower on a single core. However, functional code is very parallelizable over many cores. Non-functional code would need mutexes or locks or spinlocks, etc. Functional code and non-functional code both have code with some cores telling other cores what to do, but functional code doesn't need mutexes or locks or spinlocks.However, Lean4 does have a garbage collector, but that can also be parallelized. I'm new to Lean4 so does it have a 'unsafe' like Rust?
>>109421200>Your post has been processed by Rust code in order to end up here.A Rust rewrite of nginx that caused the largest outage of the Internet to date.
>>109420855>>109421441>>109421531Every single day there is much more kernel code written in C than in Rust.If Rustlets wants to rewrite and replace kernel code, they will have to up their efforts a thousand folds.And remember that tranny written Mac garbage that got abadoned?
>>109421665>corporations involved in the rust foundation>force rust to be used in their software>orthogonal argumentyou're a bad faith nigger, kill yourself.
Ok, Lean4 has the Foreign Function Interface (FFI) for using other programming languages code with Lean, like C and Lean.Rust also has the Foreign Function Interface. (But Rust is an all around shitty programming language)Ok, so a paper says that Lean4 can give you on average 80% of a CPU core's performance. But C programmers use mutexes, locks, spinlocks, etc., so Lean on many cores is using 80% of all the cpu power while C on many cores is using less of the cpu power, unless fine grain multithreading is implemented in C with attention to detail.https://cs.nyu.edu/~shw8119/23/epfpe.pdf
>>109418482Rust troons got completely replaced by AI.And they will be the only coders who lose their job to AI. Everybody, who actually creates something, still needs knowledge of software engineering, and that will always be required.Meanwhile why would i need a human to look at C code to rewrite it in Rust? It makes sense to automate that... if i even want to do that.
>>109421679I accept your concession.
>>109421803With further proves how prevalent Rust is.
>>109421824>Every single day there is much more kernel code written in C than in Rust.That does not help your initial claim.
>>109421884The fact that people are forced to use Rust works against your initial argument claim that it is not used.
>>109421975Because one single company rewrote nginx in Rust, while everybody else kept using nginx, and this one company, that used Rust, crashed their global infrastructure with it?I honestly don't get it why anyone would use Cloudflare as an example of Rust usage. It's a horrid dystopian company that harms the whole internet and that never produced anything good by itself. It's whole business model is "nginx as a service" and the one time they tried to code something themselves, it crashed and burned.Shouldn't you have better examples than this?
>>109421985That was my first post i made in this thread.Fact is that the goal moves further and further away as time passes.Imagine running to reach a target, but the target moves away from you faster than you can run.
>>109421995Yes. The fact that cloudflare among many IT companies use Rust in production suggests that it is in fact popular.
>>109422010The fact that one single company uses Rust, and crashes and burns with it, while nobody else uses it, proves that Rust is popular?
>>109421961nta but this is absolutely the most niggerfaggot insufferable cunt meme i've seen in 20 years on /g/
>>109422005>That was my first post i made in this thread.Well, you replied to a post that literally says that the burden of proof lies on the one making the claim.>Fact is that the goal moves further and further away as time passes.Yup.
>>109422029No. But the fact that cloudflare among many IT companies use Rust in production suggests that it is in fact popular.
>>109422033>>109421961that said, insufferable cunt meme or not, you're not wrong. just... don't be such a cunt about it, m8
>>109422042>among many it companiesCloudflare made their Rust stuff Open Source, and to my knowledge, nobody uses it.The nginx-rewrite (done by the multi billion $$$ corporation), did not replace nginx (done by one single guy in Russia).Who is this "among others"? Can you name a company that utilizes the coudflare rust rewrite of nginx besides cloudflare?
>>109422069Rust rewrites are just... pointless. "Memory safe! Blazing fast!" Just bullshit. Canonical started this all for no reason. And now we put a lot of manhour (actually, tranny hour) to rewrite battle-tested software in Rust. Why? To boost their egos, that's why. There's no rational reason for this.
>>109421961>i'm not arguing with a disingenuous faggot>heh, looks like i won the argument!
>>109421426>Rust 0.4%>Python 0.3%>C++ 0%I think it's a success.
>>109418482Well, for me I stopped using it because it was another transitive dependency hell environment. Other than that I enjoyed my time with the language. Some things are a bit too annoying to deal with though, and I don't like reference counting. I love the borrow checker and lifetimes, and I like how expressive the language can be.
>>109420728It's only a little more popular than Pascal.
>>109422315Delphi coper
>>109422069>Cloudflare made their Rust stuff Open Source, and to my knowledge, nobody uses it.Your post has been processed by that code in order to end up here.>Who is this "among others"?The other companies that use Rust in production are: Mozilla, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Meta, Discord, Dropbox and many more.
>>109422074>Rust rewrites are just... pointless. "Memory safe! Blazing fast!" Just bullshitSource: https://blog.google/security/rust-in-android-move-fast-fix-things/
>>109418482Laurie lays it out:https://xcancel.com/lauriewired/status/2082875191085187395#m
>>109422247>>i'm not arguingThat's what we call a concession.
>>109422374I'm talking about user-space and normal software. Not kernels or OS themselves.
>>109422434Safety in user space software can be just as important as in kernel. Many of most popular attacks recently were caused by vulnerabilities in user space programs, like bash and openssl.
>>109422361>but but that one company uses itSo?I asked you who uses the Rust rewrite of nginx that Cloudflare did, besides Cloudflare.It is open source after all. Surely the memory safe blazing fast product of the multi billion $$$ corporation hiring the best Rust developers of the world, will be successful, right?>those companies have some little rust part somewhereAnd if you cut it down, all of them look pathetic.Mozilla is THE CREATORS of Rust, and they kicked out and fired their whole Rust team. The people who made the language, got cut. In all those years of them working on it, the best thing they could deliver was a CSS rendering engine. That's it. That's a decade of work of the very people who created Rust.
>>109418482It's ugly and a pain to deal with.So the only people touching it are corpo wageslaves, and they obviously do a bad job at it.
>>109422569a Rust troon itself already confirmed that here:>>109422361>BUT MUH CORPO SLOPIf some jewish corpo wants to torture its wageslaves by forcing this horrid language on the... that is their deal... i am not going to follow it
>>109422485>So?So, going back to the original claim that Rust is not being used, the fact that cloudflare among other companies use it in production means that Rust is in fact popular.>I asked you who uses the Rust rewrite of nginx that Cloudflare didI do not know the answer to this question.>And if you cut it down, all of them look pathetic.Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Cloudflare, Discord, Dropbox, etc are one of the biggest IT companies out there. They do not really look pathetic.>Mozilla is THE CREATORS of Rust, and they kicked out and fired their whole Rust team.Rust is being developed by Rust Foundation. Mozilla has nothing to do with it for many years.>The people who made the language, got cut.Rust core team is being paid by Rust Foundation, not Mozilla.>In all those years of them working on it, the best thing they could deliver was a CSS rendering engine.Rust core team does not work on Mozilla's CSS engine.
>>109422590>i am not going to follow itYou are free to not keep up. However your ignorance might result in making more false claims.
>>109421607Rust is a managed language too, lol.
>>109422606Seems like you have forgot to "rice" your cattpuccin neko hyprland desktop setup today, anon.
>>109421524> It is everywhereSo are idiots and evil people.
>>109421426>explain how rust is not a complete failure.fagman use it, that's the only metric that matter
>>109422613This must be by far the most stupid take on entire thread
It's still growing in popularity though?
>>109422606>>109422597Look, corporations are holy and all mighty.The ultimate sign of quality is when a corporation shills something. Corporations would never do anything bad. Corporations would never deliver low quality.I love corporations.Mozilla created Rust, and had to lay off its whole Rust team, after only delivering some shitty CSS parser in a decade of work.Cloudflare rewrote nginx in Rust, and its whole global infrastructure crashed and nobody else touches their Rust project.Canonical rewrite coreutils in Rust, and after multiple years still produces crashes and incompatibilities in the most basic projects. Like they can't make cp work, copying a file.If those giant coporations can't make Rust work, then i will definitely not touch it.It would be blasphemous towards my American Democracy and Freedom loving corporate gods to even suggest that i could use Rust better than they do.
>>109422704>giant coporations can't make Rust work,Your post has been processed by Rust code in order to end up here.
>>109422645is it?
>>1094227224chan is written in PHP, idiot
>>109422773There is more to making a post on 4chan than just PHP backend.
>>109422773Yes, PHP does the heavy lifting, but Rust code did an stdin > stdout in between!!!!And it only created global outages a few times, despite having such an easy task.
>>109422800you mean SQL doing all the storage and processing?
>>109422773Calm down tough guy. He talks about Cloudflare. Which 4chan uses, which uses Rust.
>>109422815but Cloudflare is a trash company that everybody hates and that causes internet outages regularly?
>>109422824Yup. Indeed.https://0xacab.org/dCF/deCloudflare
>>109422813No. But there is a Rust proxy on the way. And likely there is some Rust code on your computer that is used to display kit.
>>109422640please explain how a language that reference counts everything for you, isn't managed
>>109422753weird how Rust hit a wall the second USAID got cut
>>109423490>reference counts everythingRetard
>>109423550What does the borrow checker do then?
>>109422753Yeah
>>109423565It's a static analyzer you retard. It's part of compiler that checks lifetimes, similarly how a type checker checks types.You are confusing borrow checker with a garbage collector.
>>109423601>It's a static analyzerthat also runs at runtime, it's a run-time reference counter, or, a garbage collector, as known in every other language, just with too much responsibility lol
>>109423583how is your malware infested micro-dependency-hell relevant to the subject?
>>109423621>that also runs at runtimeThis is not how static analysis works.>it's a run-time reference counter[citation needed]
>>109423637>[citation needed]https://google.github.io/comprehensive-rust/borrowing/interior-mutability/refcell.htmlTurns out, people actually do want garbage collection
>>109423633You asked if Rust is still growing in popularity. These graphs show continuous polynomial growth of Rust projects and users.
>>109423656yes, if it is growing in popularityHow does an increasing amount of micro dependency garbage relate to popularity?
>>109423649RefCell not prove your previous point. It is not a method of borrow checking. Borrow checker is part of Rust compiler, not standard library. If you use freestanding Rust without the standard library, your code will still be subject to borrow checker.
>>109423664>How does an increasing amount of micro dependency garbage relate to popularity?Increase in amount of micro dependency garbage does not relate to popularity. However continuous polynomial growth of Rust projects and users does show that Rust is still growing in popularity.
>>109423675>users and projectsso we would go by the github graph that shows us that Rust hit a wall in 2023 and is going sideways at best and stagnating at worstYour amount of micro dependencies is irrelevant
>>109423665>. It is not a method of borrow checking.How do you think RefCell's get resolved at run time? By Rust's Garbage co- sorry, Borrow Checker.
>>109423689Pretty much every language on that graph is going sideways and stagnating.
>>109423711>How do you think RefCell's get resolved at run time?You can read the code here: https://doc.rust-lang.org/src/core/cell.rs.html#849>Garbage collectorRefCell has nothing to do with garbage collection, it has nothing to do with allocations or heap at all. RefCell is available on platforms that do not even have any allocator and therefore nothing to collect.>Borrow CheckerBorrow Checker is a static analyzer. There is no API that RefCell could use to access it because it simply doesn't exist in runtime. It merely checks for lifetime bounds, annotated statically in your code. Just like a type checker.
>>109423735>RefCell has nothing to do with garbage collectionRefCell exists because there are some things Rust can't resolve at compile time.You still have to manage the memory...Honestly, why are rust people so adamant about not wanting to admit they use a managed language? it's the entire selling point of the language lol
>>109420728>more and more projects are being made with itYou mean rewrites that implode because rewriting battle-tested code is really hard and people just give up or lose interest.
>>109423791Too truehttps://github.com/remacs/remacs
>>109418482c tranny tranny sucks
>>109423773>RefCell exists because there are some things Rust can't resolve at compile time.Nothing can resolve this. Doing so in general case is an undecidable problem.Mutexes, Cells, RWLocks, Atomics etc exist for cases where you can't express your program in a way that guarantees there won't be any unexpected concurrent mutations. And with the exception of Cells, you will find them in pretty much every systems programming language.>You still have to manage the memory...Synchronization and memory management are different things.>managed languageRust is a systems programming language. Managed languages require runtime and Rust does not need any.
>>109423824>Managed languages require runtime and Rust does not need any.Did you happen to even glance at the RefCell example...?
>>109423833This is the intelligence level of a cnile
>>109423845ad-hom won't change rust's runtime borrow checker
>>109420717Anon, explicitly spelling out semantics using the type system is the opposite of "hiding"
>>109423583most crates are a half-assed jokes tho that get abandoned after the first hacker news post.>>109423852yeha but borrow checking / lifetime inference / etc are basically extensions of the type system. it's probably a good language for LLMs but it's a miserable language for humans to write.
>>109425153>borrow checking / lifetime inference / etc are basically extensions of the type system. it's probably a good language for LLMs but it's a miserable language for humans to write.This implies languages like Haskell are not made for humans and python/JS are better.Sounds like skill issue.
>>109425382haskell is also a useless language, yes. it's not me saying that but its author simon jones.
>>109422315Well you rarely hear, i have rewritten A, B with pascal, oh my code safety bullshit
Rust is obviously way better than C and C++. Maybe someone will one day make a language even better than Rust, but Rust is the best out there right now. Zig is garbage.
>>109422645It is not clear if the recruitment can ever match the self castration.>>109422704>Canonical rewrite coreutils in Rust, and after multiple years still produces crashes and incompatibilities in the most basic projects. Like they can't make cp work, copying a file.It adds to the insanity that they are willing to ship code but are not willing to use the test suites.You could also add that Redox-OS has now been going for 11 years, and is still nowhere near the state of useability that Linux was after 4 years. Nevertheless, they have had the normal drama associated with Rust, including purges and [spoiler]suicide[/spoiler].
>>109422704>Canonical rewrite coreutils in RustHoly retard. Canonical never rewrote coreutils. They make Ubuntu, not uutils.This is what happens when you base your tech knowledge on nothing but /g/ memes.
>>109423851https://en.cppreference.com/cpp/memory/shared_ptrI guess C++ is managed now too
>>109427766No one questions that C++ is a steaming pile of shit that should be condemned to the annuls of history. Rust is the same.
>>109427766if you think RAII makes a language managed then good for you I guess, have fun in your fantasy world
>>109427805It's a form of automatic memory management. It's sort of in the name,
>>109427766C++ is a different kind of delusion.They implement ad-hoc garbage collection in all their projects.
>>109421531>the burdon of proof is on the person making a claim.Its on the person making an affirming claim.If I say there is no teapot floating somewhere in space. I don't need to prove that. The same way I don't have to prove there are no unicorns.So the people saying rust isnt a failure need to show some counterexamples here.
>>109427898Bad rust code does this. I'm working on a project with multiple threads dedicated to specific tasks, and to cross thread boundary, virtually all variables are wrapped into Arc<RwLock<..>>While 99% of the time an MPSC queue could have solved it, only using synchro primitives for thread-related synchronization.We even have our own newtype wrapper for RwLock to detect deadlocks in debug builds.I'm trying to preach to coworkers who've never done systems programming how to isolate state and enforce invariant, like "thread #1 owns this variable", or "this is when thread #2 is waiting for more work from thread #1, thread #1 can modify thread #2 variables until notify is called". But they insist on using arc<rwlock<..>> because the ai told them it would compile.These clowns have introduced deadlocks in a single thread by holding locks across different stack frames.That said, RefCell is usually a code smell. Cell is fine, but every time I see a RefCell, I know there's a 99% chance the code has been written by a retard.
>>109427928>there is no teapot floating somewhere in spaceyou're wronghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRMYOO1gHm0
>>109427971>These clowns have introduced deadlocks in a single thread by holding locks across different stack frames.amazing, the true power of a fundamentally flawed language giving bad programmers delusions of being competent
>>109428023This, the language isn't badly designed, it just give brainlets the impression they can do systems programming.Every time they have to implement something complex, they look for a crate that does it for them, prompting the rest of the team to review the crate and it's dependencies recursively to make sure it's up to our standards. It literally takes longer than actually implementing it.Lately we needed to implement a BSP panel ui, like the one in blender. It would have taken maybe half a day to get something working, tailored to our needs. Instead they pulled a general BSP implementation crate for 3D rendering, that was absolutely not suited for our needs. We had to write tests for it, as well as the tests for the use we make of it.What would have taken 1 busy work day took almost a week to get working.
>>109427928>So the people saying rust isnt a failure need to show some counterexamples here.Sure. If you want to make that claim, then go provide the proof.No matter what claim you are making, the burdon of proof is on the person making a claim. I haven't made any claims yet, so if you want to make any, make sure you have something support it.
>>109428023>the true power of a fundamentally flawed languageNothing he described is Rust specific. If you put every variable behind a mutex(which is what they did) in C or C++ you would end up with the same problem.No matter what language you use, if you have multiple threads using many independent variables behind many mutexes you will end up with tons of deadlocks.
