Imagine if all the development hours that went into Wayland were put into improving the Linux desktop instead.17 fucking years of Linux desktop development has been effectively wasted.
XLibre was a psyop to stall X11 server development by dividing and conquering.
>>109506323It's also inferior product, it has crippled foundation.
Trying to set up Compton with an NVIDIA card was always a mess and it was either laggy or a broken piece of shit, meanwhile "unsupported" Wayland somehow works just fine with a built in compositor in the DE/WM. Never going back to Xshit11.
>>109506323Except it is the desktop environments driving all of the improvements in Wayland???It started off life as a shit environment for kiosks and in-car entertainment systems but these days pretty every notable change to the protocols is coming from a KDE developer.
>>109506323I just use X11+XFCE and I have zero issues with it,I don't get why the fuck did they need to make a new standard, are they retarded?
>>109506424because it's a much simpler protocol with historical baggage, so that means smoother development hahahahahahahahaha
you used the wrong picture and typo'd "GNOME"
>>109506680Without the historical baggage, you mean.>>109506424Basically Xorg is this bloated monolithic Frankenstein thing with the problem that nothing works.Wayland made the deliberate decision to not include any of the bloat, it was to be a minimal protocol that only does what's needed of a display server.Yes, this means that they didn't even put core desktop controls and window management into the core protocol because they weren't designing it for desktops, they designing it from the perspective of "What is a good minimal baseline for a display server?", as such it doesn't include a lot of bells and whistles.Part of the reason why it's taken so long to get good adoption is because all of the desktop protocols needed for a desktop compositor have had to be bolted on top. But this was actually a deliberate decision to do so, it allows for easier experimentation. They can make unstable protocols rather than needing to put them into the core and maintain them for life. Only when they are good enough will they be declared stable.
i wish i could keep using x11, i really do. i also wish there was something besides wayland but there isnt
>>109506714aint going to read all that tranny text,you lostx11 works and always worked
>>109507077It has no support for modern displays. It doesn't work.
>>109507077>i cant read>i am afraid of changemajor self own there buddy
>>109507162it works on my 165hz screen,modern displays like what?HDR?who the fuck cares about that made up bullshit
>>109506768XLibre is exactly that and will continue to be regardless of how much the corpo shills cry about it.
>>109507173>HDR?>who the fuck cares about that made up bullshit>HDR isn't real>It's made up bullshitI bet you're a flat earther too
>>109506400Works on my machine Sounds like a skill issue
>>109507183Transgenderism isn't real and that's why your parents are ashamed of you
>>109507215Lmao, I'm not a troon. I do have modern display hardware though which isn't real and doesn't exist.Since nobody is making new X11 window managers anymore you should check out the Denial Wayland compositor:https://www.phoronix.com/news/Denial-WM-Compositor
>>109506400Wayland is the only way the desktop doesn't feel like complete dogshit with nvidia. If you don't notice the difference you're simply retarded
>>109506323>win32 hello world: https://github.com/microsoft/Windows-classic-samples/blob/main/Samples/Win7Samples/begin/LearnWin32/HelloWorld/cpp/main.cpp>handful of function calls, less than one hundred lines>makes .exe that just works foreverCompared to:>wayland hello world>250 lines of insane complexity>"optional" protocols required>have to generate .c files for these "optional" protocols>have to drag in more libraries if you want to handle keyboard input>or draw anything>or literally anything useful>makes fragile elf that will break the next time ebussy throws a hissyAnd people wonder why we complain about it.>inb4 just use gtk or qtSo I'll have to rewrite in 3 years when that version gets deprecated? Win32 doesn't have this problem.
>>109507244Use libsdl2. It'll still be around no matter how many times your mom gets around. It'll still be around even after she's dead because they keep making compat layers for it.
>>109507264That's good for making games, less so for an actual GUI. It doesn't give you a way to draw text, so you have to do that some other way just like on wayland.
>>109506323>Wayland was a psyop to stall Linux desktop developmentIt wasn't made to stall, it's political. Since Wayland is a protocol it can't fall under the GPL, it's less obvious who actually controls it (a few corporations with plants in the FDO committee).>Imagine if all the development hours that went into Wayland were put into improving the Linux desktop instead.The Linux desktop is shit because they did the same thing to other parts of the desktop. So they actually can't change it without breaking compatibility with everything.For example before DBUS we had DCOP, DCOP was much simpler, more straightforward and just worked. DBUS is an over engineered piece of shit and probably responsible for most of the bugs in desktops like KDE.>>109506714>less bloated>requires a compositorok buddy.
>>requires a compositorDirect scanout has existed for eons. You don't have to pick and choose between transparency and shadows or performance, you can have both.
>>109507316Meant for >>109507304
>>109507304>Since Wayland is a protocol it can't fall under the GPLX11 is a protocol too.
>>109507337Also the X11 licence is notoriously bad which was what led to the creation of the MIT licence. Bringing up X11 as a shining example of free software licensing is a bit of a stretch.
>>109507220I use i3wm, I don't care about your problems kid
>>109507215It's a real mental illness and its existence disproves the "gender is a social construct" retards
>>109506323so why is it better now?
>>109507316I don't believe it. Maybe it would be better than X + a compositor but Xlibre runs pretty fast on it's own.>>109507367Not claiming it's perfect, but at least it's obvious. Most of the time X11 meant Xorg, which is why Xlibre caused so much drama. An X11 implementation that's not under direct control of the corpo-tranny comittee? No way we can't have that!
>>109507477Because KDE devs and Valve have fixed a lot of the bullshit limitations that gnomefags insisted on.
>>109507537>I don't believe it. Maybe it would be better than X + a compositor but Xlibre runs pretty fast on it's own.The last time Phoronix tested Plasma Wayland vs Plasma X11 the Wayland session absolutely smoked the X11 one.They didn't test without a compositor though because no sane human being is running their desktop session without shadows and transparency.
>>109508015>shadows and transparencyI only use a compositor to eliminate screen tearing
>>109508036It's also handling transparency and shadows. Using any GTK app without a compositor results in ugly black boxes everywhere.
>>109506714low level apis are silly utopic systems made up by egg heads that expect way too much from the average software developer.
>>109506714Wayland was originally designed by and for embedded systems and by retards who wanted to make a phone touch GUI like androids WindowManager (feetfags)
>>109508057>Being closer to the metal is a bad thing>We should have high level API's (Xlib and libXCB are not particularly friendly either, by the way) that stream everything over a network socket so we can pretend we're still using a mainframe connected terminalUse a toolkit or fuck off. Nobody ever complained that Vulkan expects too much of the average developer. Instead of shitting their pants they continued to use OpenGL instead (likewise you can still use Xlib if you really want to, some people are even working on making a Wayland compatible Xlib library built on top of SDL: https://www.phoronix.com/news/libx11-compat)
>>109508015I have a script that disables the compositor while playing games and that's how I get low latency 70-80 FPS in Counter Strike on my crappy mini PC.You can also have shadows and transparency without a compositor. On top of that Xlibre gives you tearfree by default.>>109508049In that case it's a configuration issue.And we're getting off the main point that FDO/XDG standards suck in general.
>>109508080>You can also have shadows and transparency without a compositor.You can't. You can only fake it. To do it properly you need the XComposite extension.
>>109508084Exactly. If that's all you want why not fake it?
>>109508102Because it's not the 90s anymore, you can do it right. Fake transparency would have looked really good back then, now it's just amateurish.
>>109508109And?>I want heckin transparency and shadows>No, not like that!Even on Windows you can disable the compositor. Compositors aren't a requirement and it's good to have the choice. If you think it's just about eyecandy you're missing the point.
>>109508155What is it about?We've already established it's not about performance.Is it just some pointless "user choice" thing for you?>I should be able to make everything worse>Windows and X11 let you make everything worse>Why won't Wayland!?
>>109508049I don't use or care about those things
>>109508184Go be a tech luddite somewhere else kid
>>109507244>fragile elf that will breakI want to break elfs into submission
>>109508207Yes, I'm the luddite for advocating for "modern" (*it's actually not particularly modern anymore. Windows has done compositing by default since fucking Vista at this point) rendering technologies.Go sit your ass down in a museum and stay there. It's where you belong.
>Primary monitor is 1440p>Secondary monitor is 1080p>Third monitor is a 4k TV for video games and media on the couch>Want to play a game on TV and make the game treat it as my primary display, launching on it and getting the supported resolutions and refresh rates from it instead of my actual primary display (the 1440p one)>Open game launch parameters>PROTON_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1>WAYLANDDRV_PRIMARY_MONITOR=DP-3>DoneCorrect me if I'm wrong but I don't think you can do this on X11.
>>109508184>What is it about?Balancing hardware acceleration load, having a consistent render pipeline, latency.>We've already established it's not about performance.No we didn't.>Is it just some pointless "user choice" thing for you?No, in fact you shouldn't have the choice to make everything worse with Wayland.Xlibre is the future. Go be a luddite somewhere else, tranny.
>>109508266It is worse than that. On X11 every game will randomly take over your display configuration and re-apply things via Xrandr.Have fun, having your game close and leaving your desktop stuck in 640x480.
>>109508274Compositing has fuck all overhead. What are you even trying to "balance"?With direct scanout it's not even doing anything when you're gaming anyway.
>>109508276>game close and leaving your desktop stuck in 640x480ahh just like in the good old windows98 days
>>109508262Cry harder luddite zoomertard
>>109508276>game actually interfaces with the display manager instead of going through 3 layers of scaling and compositingBased.>>109508281Hardware load. Are you dyslectic? I can game without compromising on anything.>direct scanout>all the search results are about krashes and screen tearing issueslol, I don't even get screen tearing on Xlibre.
>>109508360>>game actually interfaces with the display manager instead of going through 3 layers of scaling and compositingEven Windows moved away from doing that and for good reason.>>109508360>Hardware load. Are you dyslectic? I can game without compromising on anything.There is no additional hardware load (direct scanout bypasses the compositor) and direct scan out won't krash or cause screen tearing. Those posts you saw are likely caused by a GPU driver issue.
>>109508410You're hyperfixated on direct scanout as if it's not a solved issue. Upgrade to Xlibre and be free.
>>109508426Disabling the compositor is not a solution. It's a problem in search of a solution.>42 years of development>Still no valid reason found for disabling composition except broken NVIDIA driver
>>109508436>You need to have a 5% overhead from your compositor which is also a display server and window manager for some fucking reason!>"""direct scanout""" is totally a valid substitute for disabling the compositor, just ignore the hardware issues and latency>You will own nothing and be happy.Do luddites really?
>>109508465Where in your ass did you pull this 5% figure from?Are you running on a GT710 or what? There is no overhead.Recent benchmarks pretty much universally show Wayland achieving better frame rates than Xorg.
>>109508475>Some tranny wrote a blog post saying the 15 year old corposlop is better than 40 year old corposlop>trust me bro direct scanout totally bypasses the compositor, the studdering and latency is normal>idk the difference between frame rates and latencyAnd? What does that have to do with Xlibre?
>>109508517Post your sources for that 5% overhead claim.
>>109506323idk man, xcb is 25 years old and still refuse to document basic things.FOSS devs are mostly trash, which is why it's always sponsored corporate programmers who end up getting actual things done.
>>109508573My own testing. Trust me bro, it was extensive. And it included latency too.
>>109508360>dyslecticLMFAO
>>109506323>Imagine if all the development hours that went into Wayland just because a lot of time has passed doesn't mean a lot of work was put into it. based on what I've seen they haven't spent many years to actually work on this
>>109506323The Linux desktop was solved with Gnome 2.
>>109510849And then it was ruined
>>109506680>historical baggageYou mean the ability to render applications on a different machine than the one where they're actually running? You mean the one feature that is going to be essential when all your programs are running inside data centers?
>>109507162Good thing I have no use for a "modern display."
>>109510894You might not but plenty of people do. Seeing a bunch of crazies in denial that ignore that such hardware exists doesn't help their case.The world moves on and if software like Xorg and XLibre doesn't move with it then people will have no option but to use Wayland.
>>109506323>17 fucking years of Linux desktop development has been effectively wasted.It's not 17 years of active development. It's mainly 16 years of discussions and bickering and only a single year of real work.
>XLibre
>>109506323Desktop linux was peak 22 yrs ago, like better than xp. I remember suse slowly adopting systemd and friends, polkit etc.. things like usb automounting were "broken" made me get used to doing it manually. They were already hard at work pushing the old=bad bs which created a lot of unneeded churn.
>>109506400Fake
>>109511072This is typical for Linux in general, I don't understand what you want to prove here, that Xlibre is like Gnome and KDE?
>>109506332Retard. X11 development ended years ago. The waytards who control x11 have declared it dead. It only gets but fixes now mostly to serve xwayland.
>Don't like Wayland, why don't you go your own way, lad? It's all FOSS, after all.
>>109506680That "baggage" is useful functionality that is actually needed to make a working desktop.
>>109513717>>109513840>>109513850uh oh, melty
>>109506680It took 2 months for x11 to get vr support (protocol + xorg implementation + xcb). It took 3 years for wayland to get vr support, and another 2 years for gnome compositor (mutter) to implement it.
>>109506323>Imagine if all the development hours that went into Wayland were put into improving the Linux desktop instead.It's already been perfected.
>>109513840Cope, mouthbreather. Xorg was still getting merges and had gestures introduced not that long ago.
>>109506323The only time they tried to implement something, that they were being stalling for a very long time, was when steam was about to release Frog protocols to bypass them entirely just to have a working platform.Would have loved to have frog protocols to have features wayland has no intention to provide.
>>109519015That's not how that works at all. Anyone can make a Wayland protocol, you don't have to go through the official Wayland protocols.The Frog protocols repo was basically a testing ground for Valve to experiment with Gamescope and also KDE implemented some of them but it was always their intention to upstream them properly. It was just for experimentation and helped to provide a proving ground for HDR because their protocol coupled with a Vulkan extension was one of the first ways we got to see HDR video and games working on Linux:https://github.com/Zamundaaa/VK_hdr_layer
>>109506323>were put into improving the Linux desktopbut wayland is an improvement and thats why so much times been spent on it?
>>109519307It could have been an "extra protocols" that any distro could implement, a way to have a standard beyond what wayland wants to implement.>their intention to upstream them properlyHere's the thing, you implement the protocol and try to upstream it, if it gets accepted great, if it's not it doesn't matter you already has the protocol and any major distro that wants to implement it will have a working extra feature, it was a way to take some control back from freedesktop.
>>109511072>xlibre has a bug tracker guys this is awful!What?
>>109520183But they didn't need to "take back control" in the first place. The "Frog protocols" was really just a dumping ground for testing protocol development because upstream Wayland Protocols is not that at all (they only take functionally complete protocols. They're not interested in your experimental protocol that might need to be deprecated in a few months from now)
