>>109536016
I've been thinking about this a lot lately. You're right, JavaScript was a mistake. There's nothing stopping anyone from developing some new protocol and publishing a client and server for it. It's well within my own abilities as a programmer. Maybe that will be my next project.

>>109536016
>>go back to l'eddit
you forgot doing the cookie dance after signing up to reddit with online id verification, two phone numbers, and your last three tax returns

>>109536016
We could have used Gemini Protocol (not the LLM) but it seems to primitive for an actual experience perhaps. I'm all ears.

>>109536016
you can make a difference, just write static html only sites

Skill Issue

>>109536035
That's what gemini does

>>109536112
Gemini is woke and schizo.

>>109536016
Jeetascript is too embedded. The problem is "network effects", basically it virtually ensures ecosystem lock-in for first movers for any network-based technology, no matter how shitty it is.

>>109536197
We're not taking about trying to use the existing Web without JS. We're taking about an entirely new parallel system.

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>>109536016
>javascript is the issue

>>109536016
Javascript is not the problem. When I write javascript everything is very light and fast, because I know what I am doing.
The problem is that all webdevs nowadays are retarded indians who don't know CSS so they use fifteen external scripts to change the color of some text... because it's cheaper than paying a real webdev.
All websites also have tons of scripts for spying purposes. This is because you can't make any money from ads anymore.
And of course there are the annoying captchas because of bots, which is not related to javascript at all, these days bots are mostly scrappers from AI companies.
So basically, every time the real problem is money, and a bad use of javascript, not javascript itself.

>>109536016
It's time to replace HTML and CSS.

>>109536333
This, stop visiting websites that suck and stop blaming the scripting languages for everything
Although I will admit that JS development should have stopped in 2015

I will agree though that sending untrusted executable code to client to immediately execute is a rotten idea in principle.

>>109536471
This was not a problem when JS was only used to modify the DOM, now JS has access to the file system which is an insane security hole for modern browsers

>>109536559
in ideal scenario there would never be a need for javascript. want something to happen on the webpage? standardize a new html element.
we have a collapsible <details> ffs.

>>109536016
js is niggers, but I think the problem is that the web was created as a linked document system, not an operating system which it is in practice. And why is it an os? Because it is mostly used to deliver software portably and universally, with minimal latency (compared to actually downloading one from, say, an app store).
I think the conclusion is truthfully that we need a proper OS designed for-purpose from the ground up.
A slew of other improvements are needed. If we could crack distributed hosting properly, we wouldn't need captchas (bots would simply help serve network capacities so it would even out and nobody's personal server would ever be overloaded). Spam prevention is trickier, but with full control in the OS-like environment, it might be easier to do without resorting to captcha there as well.
Hosting costs would be very low to none, because of distribution, so much lower need for greedy jew tactics to keep the lights on.
Might also be easier in the long run to 'crack a website' as we do classical software, rather than relying on adblocks and such.

But there will be a need for a few technical innovations to really make that work, and I think I am one of the only people alive who have the capacity to do those. There are maybe a handful more people like these. People with jobs, maybe even families, and/or other hobbies to tend to.

If only zoomers had listened to us instead of focusing on cheatmaxxing.

>>109536016
It became cancer with women and niggers on mobile devices. Literal cancer.

It is funny that html doesn't have its own way to update a page. Standardize some common actions (append, replace) for the browser to modify the DOM and give HTML some explicit entry point tags. That alone covers almost every remaining legitimate use of Javascript.

>>109537354
<iframe> does the job of partial updates.

>>109537376
Mostly, it can refresh but can't append or replace without resending the entire section.

>>109536219
It's the same difference. That parallel system will compete with the network effects of the existing one with all the momentum in the world behind it.

>>109536016
People with higher IQ would just install Firefox and full version of uBlock Origin, and not see a single ad.

My boomer dad is so fucking retarded I've had multiple arguments and multiple explanations on how to install an adblock, fucking retard watches youtube videos with ads, and uses internet with ads, and has no concept of understanding you can use internet without ads. That combine with HDD instead of SSD which he also refuses to replace and would rather now replace full computer. On top of that a 22 inch single 1080p monitor.

>>109537411
imagine a forum with <iframe> appended to the very end containing submit form. when posting, it is replaced by new posts including yours and another <iframe> with a form. can do this many times

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>>109536035
I'll just leave this here.

>>109537489
Firecuck did the equivalent of removing manifest v2 like 10 years ago dude. There's no full ublock there.

>>109536044
Yeah Gemini is a little too basic. We need like a Gemini++. But gemini is a step in the right direction, in the sense that what we need are open protocols not locked in walled garden bullshit "apps".

>>109537600
Literally the opposite. We need to "appmaxx".

>>109537600
Indeed. For example cookies must be allowed. We cannot store the entire state on server (or in the URI). But they must be opt-in. It's too simple as well. No inline media nor images.

>>109537611
Retard

>>109537621
It's true. Think about it.

>>109537510
OMG isd is that..? Is that a hekckin' XKCD?!?! Holy WAOW OMG OMG

>>109537629
Thought about it.
It's false.

>>109537647
Think about it harder, because it's empirically true.

>>109537670
Enlighten me.

>>109537595
source? full version of ublock is working on firefox it has no same limits as v3

>>109537510
Most retarded mindset, fuck XKCD and everyone who thinks it's smart. All established, widespread standards became that way because someone decided to make them.

>>109536016
This has nothing to do with JavaScript. What you actually don't like are ads, captchas, and EU regulations. JavaScript actually FIXES those problems.

>>109537927
they became that way because either the other options were shit or it was the first one to be made, retard

>>109536016
It's called gemini and it was dead on arrival.

>>109536016
There's already an internet without Javascript, and it was brought by LLMs. It's the /llm.txt file on every AI website. It has all the information without any of the marketing/css/javascript crap. Pure undiluted information, usually straight to the point, created for your agents, actually usable by you.
I made myself a small browser that only works with markdown/txt files (used tauri but I'm looking into moving to a native ui kit).

Now we just need to make sure everyone adds an llm.txt to their site.

>>109536016
>>109536035
>You're right, JavaScript was a mistake
lmao, JS is not the problem. Corps are then problem. All we used to do was a clock that will follow your mouse around. The problem was never make the web interactive, was letting corps shove probes and gather signals on every other site

>>109536064
My theory is that we need a new browser that only works on sites like that. Completely new, super fast, no limits for the user. Once that exists sites that are built around it can proliferate in "web rings" basically.

>>109538111
can you see two steps ahead? if an abusable function is included it is only a matter of time when it will get abused.
arbitrary computation is most definitely a problem.

>>109536184
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini_(protocol)
Which part is woke and schizo?

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>muh web 2.0
>muh ajax
>digg, reddit, etc
>jQuery duz cool shit, but I dunno how it werks!

You gotta go back 18 - 20 years and to notice when the internet was bloating up. But recall that Microsoft failed to do it themselves using ActiveX and VBScript. Would that have been worse?

The irony is that at its core, the internet was designed to be a pull system. People host content and you pull it at your leisure and process it how you want.
Javascript turns websites into what companies want. They want to control how you see information, turning it into a push system. You pull just their web application javascript nightmare, and that code then gets pushed data at their choosing, not yours.

>>109538167
>arbitrary computation is most definitely a problem.
I'd like to see where you're going with this.

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>"You are being rate limited" simply by clicking a few links on a page
>Sorry, you have been blocked
>infinite scroll that inevitably breaks or rapes you with memory leaks
>an empty browser tab using 50-100 MB of RAM
>paywalls
>login walls for everything
>privacy rape and gape
>social features
>AI features powered by some dogshit model
>normalfag brain rot everywhere
The normalfag egregore is merciless. Everything it touches gets raped and gaped into darker-than-ventablack niggerdust. Employim, retailoyim, taxoyim, boyim and other overexploited fauna are like a goddamned fungus.

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>neutered search function so that you get lost and never find what you're looking for
>everything is laggy as fuck, videos and web pees everywhere while having less information than a text-only page from the 90s
>everyone uses cloudshit's MITM
>verifying that you are human
>captcha after captcha
>captcha loop hell
>elements that spaz around as the website loads
>mobile/tablet centric design to pander to the niggercattle
>we have detected automated behavior on your account

>>109538206
yeah ultimately it's about control and the normalfags are a resource

>>109538034
Wait, what?
Claude, is this true?

We need an APT for JavaScript programs and an end to inline JS

>>109538349
see >>109536810

>>109536810
>standardize a new html element.
>we have a collapsible <details> ffs.
Sounds plausible, but how do you deal with data mutations on the page. Say you want to take some <input>, make some calculations, fetch an endpoint and update a <div>?

>>109536016
let it die. abolish it. lets go outside again.

>>109538513
you don't update a <div>, update an <iframe> as shown above.

>>109537948
>they became that way because either the other options were shit
Literally what the comment is mocking, stupidly
>or it was the first one to be made
vaguepost
>retard
the irony

>>109538590
Sucky, but OK, what about the calculation part? everything goes to the server in a post request or do you propose something better?

>>109536016
Make websites without JS
>>109538143
Make a web browser that doesn't support JS
It's that easy, just stop complaining and get to work

>>109538143
I think this is the other side of the solution. Writing a browser is only hard in order to support all the bullshit we neither want nor need. So a new web, with its own browsers suited for nothing else is the answer. Don't even have to limit ourselves to html, perhaps we could come up with something better suited to our purpose.

>>109538616
of course, any arbitrary computation must be done server-side.

This board has been complaining about the same shit for 15 years now

>>109536044
>Gemini Protocol
>but it seems to primitive
That's the point. It keeps the normies off.
It's literally just simple text-based markdown sites over a different port. It's basically gopher with SSL.
This is enough if a barrier to the average midwit that they will never, ever use it. Everyone currently using it is enjoying you not being there.

>>109538616
Stop pretending web pages are applications. You want a networked application? Write one. Stop adulterating the web with nonsense.

>>109538648
>any arbitrary computation must be done server-side.
>having frames update each other
all the tech is there already, but just made the case for using JS, unironically.

>>109538677
I love when /g/ ignores history, Been there done that, nobody wants to do a rollout to thousands of machines anon.

>>109538694
>I love when /g/ ignores history, Been there done that, nobody wants to do a rollout to thousands of machines anon.
Then whatever it was you wanted to do wasn't that important anyway. Or just make a Java applet or some shit that has it's own purpose built "app browser". There is no reason whatsoever that the web and your "app web" have to be coincident.

wasm is just doing the same shit as flash and java applets all over again
Retards didn't learn their lesson the first time
Kill wasm with fire

>>109538710
Meant to add, we have the internet, you can run whatever protocol on top that you desire. Why jam everything into a single ill suited one?
Forums and newsgroups were and should still be their own.
Chat it's own.
Email it's own.
Various instant messaging protocols, their own thing.
You computer is perfectly capable of running multiple applications to support these myriad protocols.

NFTs could have been the perfect solution for this but you idiots rejected the future!!!

>>109536016
Why are you visiting these cancerous websites? None of the things you mentioned are inherent to javascript, but are inherent to shitty websites that are hostile to their users. Literally everything you've listed could be accomplished without javascript, except it would be 10x slower because nearly always it's the backend that is lagging and slow to respond, not client code. If you force full reloads on every single of these operations you will have to wait several minutes before you see anything on these shitty websites.

>>109536559
>insane security hole for modern browsers
Submit a CVE then. Browsers pay huge money for serious security vulnerabilities.

>>109538740
NFTs are just tokens, retard. Fundamentally they are just contracts that associate an address with an id. That's literally it, it has nothing to do with websites.

>>109536064
We don't need HTML. The web was a mistake. We never should have left usenet.

>>109538716
Wasm has basically nothing to do with flash and java. Flash and java applets were full frameworks that give you pretty much the same thing that modern web apis give you, except way less secure. Wasm is just a virtual machine, it can do computation and only that. It can't even display anything or mutate dom. You must provide your own interface from js to let it do anything.

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>>109538675
I don't see why something simple like this can't be normie friendly. News websites are literally just templates that fetch some text and like some meta stuff but nothing crazy. One glance and you can tell any text could be there.

picrel.

btw it's like idk 20 div layers buried? html is a heap of trash.

>>109537595
>There's no full ublock there.
Works on my machine.

>>109537722
>source?
His ass, full uBlock works fine on firefox

>>109536016
>replace JavaScript
I thought that's what html5 was supposed to do, what happened with that?

can't believe there are people defending javascript on this shithole board

>>109539109
Feel free to leave.

>>109536359
JS is a hideous language that actually turns people retarded.

>>109537486
We're not trying to replace the Web. Different systems can coexist.

>>109539120
Put the fries in the bag helpdesk

>>109537615
GDPR can gargle my nuts. You consent to cookies when you open a browser.

>>109539194
GDPR has nothing to do with cookies.
As long as you do not store and sell user's private data you do not need to worry about GDPR.

Gopher?

>>109539211
GDPR is the reason every site added cookie popups at the same time.

>>109536016
Gopher G6

>>109539316
No you absolute retard. GDPR has nothing to do with cookies.
It's "General Data Protection Regulation", it's about protecting user data. It means that a company can't just take your data and sell that to advertisers. It also gives users right to ask to have all their data removed from servers. At least if you are from EU, americans get fucked all the time and they can't opt out. And it's not even strictly related to websites or internet as a whole, it is about all kinds of companies that process people's private data.
You are confusing cookie law(ePrivacy Directive) with GDPR(General Data Protection Regulation). They are separate regulations.

>>109539316
are you 5 years old or something? Cookie popups and the legislation for them came way before gdpr, maybe 10 or 15 years before it.

https://kiwif<cut>arms.st/threads/gopher-g6.81249/

>>109539412
Go back.

>>109539109
Modern js is better than 99% of the craplangs out there.
As for js as the basis for web technologies, it's really gay for various reasons, but mostly because it's artificially limited in what it's allowed to do.

>>109536184
Just fork it and remove the woke parts

>>109536810
How do you do 4chan's quoting system with pure html elements?

>>109538782
>Submit a CVE then. Browsers pay huge money for serious security vulnerabilities.
have you ever seen the CVE list of firefox or chromium? every fucking day there's new ones

>>109540140
Yeah. You can make money this way, especially if you have found some serious vulnerabilities like you've claimed.

>>109540050
>How do you do 4chan's quoting system with pure html elements?
don't. select text, ctrl+c, ctrl+v, prepend >
but also web browsers should be customizable and scriptable by the user to automate tasks if user wishes so.

>>109537489
my tech-illiterate mother is more tech-savvy than most people because of me against her will, she uses signal, keepassxc, protonmail, 2fa everywhere, brave and rocky linux with full-disk encryption.
it wasn't hard to "convince" her, I just installed the software, hid the alternatives, show her a few things and she naturally started using all these things, that's what most people do, I'm sure if you installed firefox with ublock on your dad computer and change the shortcut to look like his previous browser he would not notice anything wrong.

everything is working great and she does generate complexe password and use the password manager correctly.

>>109537927
>All established, widespread standards became that way because someone decided to make them.
yeah but "someone" in 2026 is a consortium of all the worst tech companies on earth whose sole goal is to extract as much money as from people.
take a look at all the new protocols around you
>display port
>usb
>hdmi
>video codecs
>iot (thread, zigbee,zwave, etc)
>http
>wifi
>bluetooth
and so on
all these things are defined by committees behind closed doors by people paid by s&p500 companies.
the days of ip, tcp, dns, ftp, bgp behind developed in labs for the greater good are OVER, protocols are now patented and you'll pay one way or another to use them.
all the hippie shit like ipfs, gnunet and other "alt" protocols are just doomed, they'll be used by pedophiles and drug dealers and mass adoption will never ever happen.
>>109538364
>"You are being rate limited" simply by clicking a few links on a page
I've been rate limited by microsoft because I was scrolling my work emails on outlook web, I had to do this because I could not select more than 100 mails at once to move them to the archive folder.
I'm sick and tired of this web centric era, every tool exist in a worst version of itself inside a web browser, fuck this gay shit, bring back native applications

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>>109540506
>the days of...
Yep, long gone are the days of
>Tim Berners-Lee, who invented World Wide Web and gave it away for free: 'My vision is based on sharing, not exploitation'.

>109538364 (Me)
>I've been rate...
Yeah, and if I were to connect what you said here to the rest of your post, it's part of an overarching trend towards consolidation of more power through the means of tech and otherwise (legal, financial, etc.). It's parasitism draining the host, i.e., the rest of society, leading to a tragedy of the commons type of problem and other consequences that you and other anons have noticed.

Every time I get rate limited or they attempt to manipulate me with dark patterns I realize that somewhere some sociopathic subanimal wants to make some number go up by some percent, and normalfags allow it because they're gullible and have a pro-authority bias for the egregore and those that own it. And every day they're given an inch and they take a mile. And you can't really do much but observe and try to find ways to mitigate.

>>109536959
>>109536959
ok so an entirely new network architecture, OS, protocols, and software stack are needed to fix JS?

good thing we have you. Our savior who is the only person who knows everything about anything

>>109538465
yes, we need an Advanced Persistent Threat to continually hack JS until companies see using it as too risky

>>109538646
wasm

>>109538815
not quite true
>>109538716
a huge selling point for wasm is the number of languages that can compile to it. Website hosts can write in C, Rust, Java, Go, Python, Kotlin, Ruby, C#, and even AssemblyScript if you want something JS-like

>>109540854
>not quite true
It is true. Wasm is just a virtual machine and here is full list of things you can do in it: https://wasm-chart.pengowray.com/
You can do basic computation, loops, ifs, functions, request more memory and that's pretty much it. There are also proposals for threads and simd. Anything else you need to provide as a function from the host. Usually that's JS code and so you can only give it some wrappers around web apis and your own logic.

>>109540912
you do need a line of JS to launch WASM, but check out WASI (system interfaces) which fleshes out the stuff you imply it's missing

and check out non-browser runtimes like wasmtime

>>109540979
>WASI (system interfaces) which fleshes out the stuff you imply it's missing
WASI is just an abstract interface. A set of function declarations/signatures/standard, not a runtime. It needs to be implemented and when you are running wasm in browser, you need to write all these WASI functions in JavaScript in order to use any of these functions. They do not come out of nowhere and browser does not provide any of this, your code does.

>and check out non-browser runtimes like wasmtime
I am using wasmtime in my project. You still need to provide wasi functions if you want to be able to call wasi functions from wasm. wasmtime can't do it for you, it doesn't even have them. You need to implement it yourself or use crate like wasmtime-wasi that will provide these implementations.

>>109541027
what is your project?

>>109541043
I am working on a website that allows you to write bots for simple games like spacewar, chess, tetris, etc in various languages and have them compete against each other with ranking and all. I am using wasmtime because it has fuel implementation and more low level access than the wasm implementation in node.js
Right now the project is on hold because I am working on other project, but every now and then I revisit it and push it further.

>>109541086
too bad the name BattleBots is taken

>>109541120
Eh, there are hundreds of variations of bot, script, war, battle, fight, vs etc. Branding it not a problem. Every tool being immature, incomplete and 10 competing standards for everything is what's most problematic. Like cool, you can compile everything to wasm. But when playing chess a first class baremetal wasm Rust target is going to outperform eg JS code that requires compiling entire NodeJS with an event loop into wasm+mandatory wasi by orders of magnitude. And that assuming you even manage to make some sane toolchain for this to work with these shaky niche libraries. This is the main headache in this program and why I eventually got discouraged. But as time goes and the tools mature it all should get easier and more reliable eventually.

>>109538143
>No limits for the user
>But don't you DARE visit a site that uses a language I don't like!!!

>>109536016
Sounds good. I'll ask AI to make the logo.

>>109541375
make sure to burn thousands of tokens asking it for name suggestions too

>>109538190
The people who publish on it except me and like five other guys, one of which made the protocol

>>109540841
First large scale use of web assembly (80%) was mining shit inefficiently on unsuspecting browsers that support it.

>>109536016
We need an internet without "advertisers" (surveillance).