>>109588288
chrome engine in general ruins ux for me
I use a middleclick toggle to scroll
it works in firefox and everywhere in native system scroll frames, but it just doesn't move beyond like cursor height - just fucking scrolls that tiny amount then nothing in chrome browsers and electron apps
chrome engine is such a special snowflake that forces it's retarded ways of doing things and doesn't respect you

>>109588491
you need an extension middleclick scroll in chromium, don't know why they don't make it native, it's retarded

>there is still no good native cross platform ui library
I've been working on an desktop application and looked at what was available it's all shit so I am just implementing my own. I really don't think it would be that complicated to actually get something decent but everything that exists is just kind of shit. Just using electron + some component library is 1000x easier to get something decent looking out quickly but of course it performs like complete shit

>>109588288
More like
>single-handedly makes desktops better

>>109588697
There is. It's called "webview". If Electron is too bloated for your taste then use Tauri instead.

>>109588697
I'm also writing a gui library. I wish I was 5 years younger though so that I could do this on some future good language instead of r*st

https://nwjs.io/ has a different approach which I think makes more sense, separating the engine from the executable itself, like HTA files used to work, so instead of each app having an instance of chromium+node, they all share the same instance of chromium+node, skipping compilation, unless you use some stupid framework that requires compiling to JS

>>109588636
Not him but how would an extension like that work on an electron app?

>>109588710
needing to run a browser/web view to show a ui is insane, im just using sdl_renderer
>>109588716
im using odin because i dont care about getting a job it's comfy as hell. Blick is a cool piece of software that just came out with it I like the odin community they are cool people

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>>109588288
Can`t you vibeslop some alternative with GO in the front and back end idk

>>109588288
what, you only have 4gb of ram or something?

>>109588860
I don't know, maybe it enables this flag?

--enable-blink-features=MiddleClickAutoscroll

the thing is, in windows you don't need any special flag or extension, only on linux and macOS

>>109589007
no, i have 64GB and im running 4 of these daily - firefox, vscode, figma and claude desktop

>>109588958
>needing to run a browser/web view to show a ui is insane
Why?

There's literally nothing wrong with using a browser engine to render GUI apps. It works, it's cross-platform, it's not heavy (Electron excluded), it makes sense. HTML, CSS and JS are quite literally made for UI work. Even Gtk and Qt effectively use HTML, CSS and JS, or at least syntax and rendering heavily inspired by them.

>>109588288
the main performance hit with electron apps is the single threaded nature of it.

>>109589060
>Gtk
you can even use React with GTK
https://github.com/gtkx-org/gtkx

I can't tell anymore what's CEF and what's electron but everything feels like I'm just running another chrome instance on my desktop these days

>>109589060
there is no such thing as magical free abstractions at bottom a gui is displaying pixels and shapes using a graphics api or software rendering and anything that removes you from that just in principle does cost performance. Having a composable UI library that keeps you close to the metal and allows for customization of that is just superior
GTK and qt both suck shit
If you need to display UI based on state that is extremely simple to do computationally and is essentially instant and programs all suck and are bloated garbage because people think they need to run a web browser to tell the gpu to render a rectangle

>>109589060
also HTML/CSS/JS are not made for UI work, they are made for web documents lol. The UI stuff on a web was hacked into something meant to display documents.

>>109589182
just use Rust bro
https://github.com/zed-industries/zed/blob/main/crates/gpui/README.md

>>109589182
>performance
The additional resource usage is completely negligible on computers made after 2002. You do realize some cheap ass smartwatches run web UIs?

>>109589220
Retarded take. This is like saying all GUIs are just hacked into something meant to display a CLI. So if you use Linux outside of a TTY you're doing it wrong.

>>109589241
sorry im not trans sister but i wish you luck on your brave journey
>>109589309
>additional resource usage is completely negligible on computers
is this why software is all so fast and good now?
>retarded take
HTML is literally a format for a document that is meant for displaying text documents and linking them, interaction was a complete afterthought. I got started as a web developer so I am very familiar with web stuff and doing uis for it, and have done tauri and electron ones as well. They are bloated and slow and feel like shit.
Your argument doesn't even make sense you are telling me to use a text document display format as a thing for modeling UI interactions then running a web browser to display and interact with it. I am just saying all you want to do is display glyphs and shapes based on data and you can trivially do that directly on the gpu there is 0 reason to use a text format or browser, tty has nothing to do with it and the fact you'd even bring it up just makes it seem like you are retarded and have no idea what you are talking about. What do you think computers even are?

>>109589393
>is this why software is all so fast and good now
Developers stopped caring about optimization. You can easily make anything perform like shit if you're a shit developer.
>the rest of the post
Man, you got called out for saying nonsense and now you're squirming here and throwing insults. You know I'm right.
>I got started as a web developer so I am very familiar with web stuff and doing uis for it
Well I can see that you were absolutely dogshit in it. Which is understandable since web dev positions have very low standards, especially regarding UI work.

>he thinks it's just electron
Blud time traveled from 2017 to make this post

>>109589432
What? You dont have to ship Chromium anymore?

>>109588288
It's part of the reason I don't have Obsidian on my PC's.

I use it on Mobile and it makes sense there, but it's a goddamn Chrome tab: Let me see my damn .md notes in Firefox/et. al.

Isn't Tauri the solution to Electron bloat? It's literally sitting there and no one uses it just because Electron came first.

What about flutter?

>>109588288
What should I use instead for my project?

so, where is all that indispensible software built on electron? I couldn't find a single program on it on my computer.
onlyoffice? I use libreoffice instead.

>>109588288
I just write desktop apps in C and C++. I don't have the time or energy to fiddle with my balls all day wrangling JayantaScript code.

>>109592680
Figma

>>109593107
looks like inkscape or html+css covers my needs instead.

>>109593178
Looks like you don't know what you are talking about

>>109593237
maybe, what am I missing?

>>109592680
Signal. VSCodium.

>>109593107
Figma balls

>>109593683
thanks.
signal messenger couldn't muster up a native desktop client like telegram did? what a shame.

>>109593714
>native desktop client
Both Signal and Telegram desktop clients are native. Non-native would assume they're not built for your OS and you're using emulation or translation layers to run them.

>>109593763
electron "apps" are not native, code goes through js vm and visuals go through dom layers.

>>109593808
It absolutely is native.

>>109593815
your definition of "native" is wrong, then.

>>109593826
No, yours is.

>>109590921
No one wants to write in tranny languages it seems...

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>>109592583
like the cool ai labs you should write your own electron:
https://openai.com/index/building-chatgpt-atlas/

>>109588710
WebView is just an embedded browser you fucking retard, how are you this fucking stupid holy fuck

>>109589060
It's not an app then you retard it's a website you moron
Kill yourself holy shit

>>109593808
>c apps are not native, code goes through the c vm and visuals go through the gtk layers.

>>109593808
and what do you think other UI toolkits do? directly interact with your hardware with no abstraction, translation, rendering layers, etc?

>>109594242
>>109594246
>a web browser is not an app
>an app that is rendered in a webview is not an app
imagine being this retarded

>>109594367
A browser is an app.
A website is not.
Kill yourself now

>>109594472
>A browser is an app.
that does what?

>>109594472
>A game engine is an app
>A game is not!
Who's the retard here?

>>109594297
lol'd at "c vm"

>>109590921
Unironically this >>109593956
Making Tauri use Rust instead of JS was the most retarded fucking decision. It was done to force it on people, as trannies always do. People want to use these frameworks because they don't want the humiliation ritual that comes with low level languages and native UI shit. I'm not going to use Rust for this.

>>109595458
The Rust decision didn't make sense. The reason people use Electron is the convenience of using JS for everything. Having to juggle two languages is nonsensical since at that point you might as well look for a better cross-platform solution.

>>109595486
Exactly. Tauri could have become a serious player in Android and iOS app development. If you told me I can make cross platform apps with whatever JS tools and frameworks I want that work on all systems without having to use R*act or some specific language, I would be like hell yeah sign me up.
If you tell me I have to use Rust for it, you might as well say I have to use C++. Miss me with that BS.

>>109595486
>>109595541
There's also Wails, which uses Go: https://wails.io/

>>109595762
Go is also a quirky chungus language. I ain't using that either.

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>>109588697
Or is there?

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It is not that electron is good, it is that native platforms frameworks and other cross platforms frameworks are subpar

>>109596254
This. Any other cross-platform solution is dogshit.

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>>109596283
But what about Preact?
https://preactjs.com/
It works
It's cross platform
It's got that same modern react API you already know
IT'S LITERALLY DROP IN

>>109596299
It is calling the system webview, and the webview implemention is different from platform to another, mac, windows, ios and android all have their their own implementions, so ui\ux are gonna behave differently, staticly linking node and chromium ensure consistent ui\ux across platforms

>>109596365
Why do you want chrome to be the only webview? lmfao that's not a good thing. even google itself wants to not be a monopoly at this point

>>109596299
What do you mean "what about Preact"? It's literally just a web framework like any other. No shit it's "cross-platform" when you're building it into Electron or the native webview.

>>109596365
It doesn't matter as much as you think. There's only 2 WebView implementations, that being Safari or Chrome. iOS and macOS use Safari while Windows and Android use Chrome. Linux uses both. And both are almost fully interchangeable, unless you're explicitly using features that are only available to one of them (which any properly set up code editor / IDE / project linter will warn you about).
The bigger difference comes in the version of a webview you're targeting. You generally want to target Chrome/Safari versions that are around 4-7 years old because most people don't update their shit. And by "target" I simply mean "don't use newer CSS or html features", since JavaScript can be polyfilled and effectively fully backported to older webviews.

>>109596625
https://mozilla.github.io/geckoview/
Dumbass

>>109596632
>geckoview
Just because this exists doesn't mean anyone uses this shit. Name 1 relevant OS or Linux distribution that does. I'll wait.

Normal Linux distros use Gtk webview (webkit/safari) or Qt webview (blink/chrome). Mobile Linux distros like UBPorts use an outdated version of Safari/Chrome. Smart TV operating systems use an outdated version of Chrome and sometimes Safari. And as I've said, Windows and Android use Chrome while Apple uses Safari. There's no OS I've ever seen that uses Firefox as a webview.

Am I missing some obscure bullshit OS that opted into the shittiest webview implementation?

>>109596632
>GeckoView is pretty directly tied to the Android platform, so turning it into an Electron-like Desktop runtime isn’t directly feasible. We do, however, hope that Android developers find creative uses for GeckoView!
from some pozzila blog
https://hacks.mozilla.org/2019/06/geckoview-in-2019/
>>109597049
this is probably why because you cant even use it outside of android without considerable engineering effort

>>109597049
GeckoView is for Android.
Firefox for Android (Fenix/Daylight), Firefox Focus, and Firefox Reality all run on GeckoView.
Millions of people use Firefox for Android.
Firefox Reality is really an apt name here.

>>109597121
>Millions of people use Firefox for Android.
That's a browser. A user app. Not a system webview. Installing Firefox does not immediately make it your webview implementation, nor can it even be used as a webview implementation.

Standard Android, including all Android ROMs like Graphene and Lineage, use "Android System WebView" which is the Chromium engine. If you want to get technical, Graphene uses Vanadium but that's still just Chromium.
If you want to change your webview (99.99% of people don't) you'd have to enable Developer Settings. And even then, your only option will be the regular WebView or Chrome itself. You cannot set an arbitrary non-Chromium web browser to be your webview.

Having Firefox as your webview requires building your own ROM or rooting your device and fucking around with it.

Again, nobody uses this shit. It's not a consideration when developing webview-based applications. Only Chrome and Safari matter. Firefox is completely irrelevant here.

>>109597215
>You cannot set an arbitrary non-Chromium web browser to be your webview.
Yes, I can. I have root.

>>109588697
>library
This concept is the problem. You should be building the basic building blocks of an application from scratch. This is especially true with LLM's that can code now. There is no real time-saving in using most "libraries" especially where UI is concerned.

An app should be built to do what it does and nothing else. This creates all kinds of benefits whereas using a universal platform introduces all kinds of limitations and extra bs.

>>109597243
>I have root.
You're proving my point. You're in the very tiny minority of people who have rooted their device and then in the tinier minority of those who would fuck around and replace a standardized system component. If an app doesn't work on your device nobody other than yourself will give a fuck. App developers aren't going to accommodate people who intentionally break their OS. People like you are less relevant than the 2% of people who are still stuck on WebView/Chrome v50-v60.

>>109597310
Shit mindset. Reinventing the wheel is the worst thing you can do.

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>>109597329
No, I'm not. You're stating your opinion as if it is a fact. It is not. The fact is, millions of people use GeckoView. GeckoView is highly relevant. GeckoView is a library, it is reusable in Android. You seem to be implying that Chrome is the only option for a system webview. This is a stone faced lie. You could replace it with Vanadium. You could replace it with Geckoview. It is absolutely possible to do so. Users have a choice. That is a fact, and you need to get over it. Facts don't care about your feelings or opinions.

>Fact: Geckoview is relevant
>Fact: Geckoview has millions of users
>Fact: Geckoview is a reusable library which enables developers on the Android ecosystem an alternative to the system webview.

>>109597610
>Vanadium
That is still Chrome
>Geckoview
It is completely and utterly irrelevant.

You're coping hard. Nobody in the real world cares about Geckoview aside from yourself and a handful of Mozilla people.

wine uses gecko engine for displaying chm files.
somehow it takes much longer to show up than firefox.

>>109595015
>He thinks comparing a game engine with a browser is a valid comparison
You're a braindead fucking moron who deserves to have his head flattened with a ballpeen hammer

>>109598452
>is objectively wrong
>still calls people retarded
leave

>>109598648
>Says others are wrong
>Doesn't explain why
Kek
Suck start a shotgun

>>109598960
Explaining things to an imbecile is as feasible as explaining nuclear physics to a chipmunk.

>>109598997
Funny you'd compare yourself to a chimpmunk, I'm pretty sure a chimpmunk is smarter than you.

>>109599004
I asked Gemini if this was possible and it replied:

No. While chipmunks possess specialized cognitive skills like excellent spatial memory for finding food caches, humans have far more advanced cognitive
  abilities, including complex reasoning, abstract thought, language, and tool creation.

>>109599004
>lacks reading comprehension
>is proven wrong by an AI
>is wrong throughout the whole thread
>cannot provide coherent arguments in order to even attempt to back up his claims

>>109599239
>cannot provide coherent arguments
Funny you'd say this. I told you here >>109598960 to provide arguments and you replied with 50 iq ad hominem. You really are a brown braindead retard kek.

>>109599339
>cries about ad hominems
>while only doing ad hominems

>>109599392
>more cheap deflection
You started the argument with an ad hominem yourself you brown fucking retard, burden of proof isn't on me

>>109599414
>more false statements
this is your first post here >>109594242, so you're the one derailing and using ad hominems, we're just playing along.
you still haven't answered this >>109594991

>>109599524
>that does what?
Renders websites

>>109599547
>Renders
correct!
>(only) websites
INcorrect!

>>109599612
Only websites.

>>109599626
you're simply wrong by all accounts.

but, I'll humor you just for fun. lets assume a browser can "only display websites". guess what? a website can contain an application inside it. I know it sounds weird grandpa, but it's not 1991 anymore. and guess what, browser+webapp=application! so we still come to the conclusion that you're a tech illiterate moron.

>>109599688
You said it yourself you brown illiterate moron. "WebApps". Web applications. they're not standalone apps. What do you think "a website containing an app" means? It's still html, css, and js, no different like any other static website you retarded indian faggot. And they're NOT apps, which is precisely why every big company and their mothers want you to download a REAL app and throttle the mobile version of their websites.

>>109599716
Absolutely destroyed that stupid little jeet.

SDL + Dear ImGUI is all you'll ever need.

>>109599757
re-rendering every frame might be an even worse idea than packing a webpage with a whole web browser.

>>109588988
It wasn't funny until I saw the subject line.

>>109599757
DearImgui cannot do proper margins and rounded borders for shit because the dev is fighting against imgui looking modern

>>109599716
>they're not standalone apps.
yes, they are.
>It's still html, css, and js
the underlying programming language doesn't matter. Gtk and Qt are also "still just XML, CSS/JSON, JS/C/C++".

you don't know how computers and software works.

>>109601972
You technologically illiterate retard
A "webapp" is just fancy terminology for a website that does anything more complex than serving static content. It's still a website. It's why instagram wants to download the real instagram app, as does facebook, youtube, etc
Again you're clearly a retarded faggot who's never written a single line of code in his enitre life
>Gtk and Qt are also "still just XML, CSS/JSON, JS/C/C++".
Kek a WebView is just an embedded browser, it doesn't syscalls you technologically illiterate faggot

>>109602222
>webview
>doesn't syscalls
It literally does, retard.
>fancy terminology
You're the one being stuck on terminology here. By all accounts and definitions, a "webapp" running in a system webview is an application. You can keep coping all you want.

>>109602362
Hilarious you ignored this
> It's why instagram wants to download the real instagram app, as does facebook, youtube, etc
Twice
Stupid fucking retard
>By all accounts and definitions, a "webapp" running in a system webview is an application
The application is the container running the webview. The webview is just a website.
>b-but it's an app that displays a website!!!
Idiot

>>109602545
>The webview is just a website.
And the "website" is what contains the app or is an app.
>Hilarious you ignored this
>It's why instagram wants to download the real instagram app, as does facebook, youtube, etc
Because it's irrelevant to the underlying point that webapps are apps. And it's an invalid take anyway since a ton of Android applications explicitly use the Android System Webview for all rendering, including older versions of the Facebook app (which, again, is still an app).

ALSO:
Hilarious you ignored this
>It literally does, retard.
Hilarious you ignored this
>You're the one being stuck on terminology

See, I can do this too.

At the end of the day, you're making pointless arguments and nonsensical distinctions which are completely irrelevant. A webapp is an app.

>>109602626
>>109602626
>Because it's irrelevant to the underlying point that webapps are apps
No it's not you retarded fucking stupid nigger. You can render a website all you want and it will never be an app.

>And it's an invalid take anyway since a ton of Android applications explicitly use the Android System Webview for all rendering, including older versions of the Facebook app
Of course not you stupid nigger, it makes zero sense to make an "app" that just shows the website.
Can I wrap the 4chan site in an embedded browser and call it a mobile app? Stupid fucking retard

>>109602710
>You can render a website all you want and it will never be an app.
Except it is.

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>>109588288
>write software once
>runs the same way anywhere, with the same performance
>microslop funneling money to improve the most popular code editor on the planet that runs on linux
>only downside is ~double ram usage, ie completely irrelevant unless you're a destitute thirdie using some 8gb laptop from 2012
Electron is quite literally the best thing to have ever happened for desktop computers. Qt, WxWidget, PWAs etc is all old shit and I'm never touching any of it again.

>>109602737
>Ignores the rest of the post
Kek
You're a 12 year old that thinks he's le epic haxor because he asked chatgpt how to wrap a website in an embedded browser
Kill yourself you underaged retard

>>109588288
>Someone creates a fucking electron application that solves a problem
>The author goes "well, you should be glad this exists, at least it solves the problem, someone else can make a native application later
>Nobody ever does because the shitty solution is good enough

Really though, native frameworks fucking suck. The .net world is like 15 years, the C++ world like 25 years behind in developer convenience.
>Hmm? You want a custom widget? Here, inherit from Basewidget, there's an OnDraw(GraphicsContext& ctx) method here. GLHF, faggot.
No.

>>109602748
>>microslop funneling money to improve the most popular code editor on the planet that runs on linux
and google is funneling money into improving java/typescript so all electron apps run better
it really is the best solution unless you need extreme performance (you don't)

>>109599800
The rendering engine is retained. Immediate refers to how the GUI is composed. Doing it each frame has a basically nonexistent performance cost, and if the contents of the frame don't change, the retained GPU-side data does not change either. Dear ImGui is extremely high performance.

>>109602751
>Ignores the rest of the post
Because you're no longer worth replying to as you're an obvious retard or a troll.

>>109602828
that doesn't seem to be the case, people resort to setting fps to 10 to save on resources, especially if it's unfocused and behind other windows.
still unmerged:
https://github.com/ocornut/imgui/pull/5116

https://github.com/ocornut/imgui/wiki/Implementing-Power-Save,-aka-Idling-outside-of-ImGui

if every gui program behaved like a video game, it would be fucking hell.

>the dumb nigger in this thread is still saying electron and tauri apps are not apps just because they're rendered by a browser engine
lmao, what is visual studio code then, a website?

>>109589011
>only on linux and macOS
on GNU/linux it makes sense, because the default behavior for a middle click is inserting text from the selection clipboard. Having it be the other way around would annoy me. I do scrolling via having scroll emulation on my trackpoint, which is handled on libinput level.

>>109602999
>the default behavior for a middle click is inserting text from the selection clipboard
Thankfully this "default" is being eradicated soon.

>>109603053
Oh wow, a tourist? I'll sure enjoy having to deal with enshittification of everything!

>>109603053
I've mostly eradicated middle click paste on x11 for myself, heh.

>>109603201
>highlighted text is automatically copied to a separate, hidden clipboard
>middle click pastes from that clipboard
This is already shit behavior. Removing these garbage features by default is de-shittification.
>tourist
You wish. I've used Linux for almost 2 decades.

>>109603241
it made sense when 3-button mice were common and scrolling webpages wasn't.

>be linux noob
>no idea middle click paste is even a thing
>using an altchan with live posting and live file embedding you can't delete
that was some high risk posting

>>109603255
>it made sense 30 years ago
Sure, but it's no longer 30 years ago. Now it's just a nuisance.
And I really doubt it made sense back then even. I can't see a world where having 2-3 separate clipboards "makes sense".

>>109603364
I agree. accidentally pasting selected text into a web form that javascript can immediately upload somewhere is unacceptable.
some people install clipboard managers to have unlimited entries, but anyway.

>>109602865
>No longer worth replying to
>Still replies
Case in point, you're completely fucking braindead

>>109588288
>I want the costumer to install every single dependency separately even if they are not compatible with other software

>>109605452
Some people are just retards chasing a self-invented definition of software purity.