Today when you use any terminal, be it on unix or windows, it feels archaic, it's so much behind every technology after the 70s, we can have hyper{text,media}, images, videos, 3d, even full interactive GUIs, yet the terminal is just text in and text out, with additional escape codes which are just hacks.I don't mean turning it into a web browser, nor replace it with a WIMP GUI, but something in between, where we still have the programmability and control that the traditional terminals give, combined with the convenience of modern hypermedia and graphics. I think of something equivalent to the interaction mechanism of TUIs (e.g. vim, lf, mutt, newsboat...) and the programmability of the shell (and maybe improve the shell also) which gives a new dimension of commandability, like the relation between ex(1) and vi(1), or emacs and elisp, allowing this neo terminal the ability to become the commanding human interface for the OS, or the medium, or rather the hyper-medium. With its advanced capabilities it can replace the cli and the gui, and be better.I don't mean to just hack ncurses and bash into a gui, but a new system of thought regarding the human interface, a system that we saw glances of its superiority in many separate projects, but it was never extended to its full potential. This will also make it super easy to make "apps" and programs without a need to the mess of GUI libs, TUI libs, or the unix shell, that's why many casual devs would rather embed a full web browser rather than deal with that mess; because the WWW got a lot right when it comes to hypermedia and ease of use.ofc this ideas are not complete, and maybe wrong, that's why I want (YOU)r input.
>why drink water it's so ancientwerx on my machine
>>109923705fpbpop is a
>>109923705Yeah, but do you go and get it from your locale spring? there's an improved infrastructure around it.
>>109923717do i use xterm? no, i use feet terminal
you didn't even real the post didn't you? gtfo retard
I've been using eshell in Emacs. It's not widely known, but you can render anything an Emacs buffer can render in an eshell buffer, so it's not too hard to get images or clickable links as output to eshell commands.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6o1N2kfmuc
>>109923665>with additional escape codes which are just hacks.This drives me up the wall sometimes.>and the programmability of the shell (and maybe improve the shell also) We've pretty much already solved the shell with Fish and Nushell (gay name, I know.)You have nice dreams but I think you're looking in the wrong field. That's all I really have to say which actually isn't anything much. Apologies. But I hope you can make these ideas come true.
you're not really going to get anything interesting without a bunch of gross hacks until people are willing to move on from emulating a vt100. it's a shame because stuff like plan9 "windows", eshell, templeos' shell and cat9 are interesting.
>>109923665You mean a web browser?
>>109925525>>109923717>>109923665Are you /g/uys talking about Emacs as a solution to the terminal?
>>109928089The more proficient you are with Emacs, the less you need the terminal.
>>109923665anyone who uses the term hypermedia is a confirmed discord zoomer larper. it literally means nothing besides regular html. htmx isn't even about multimedia it's about the over the wire transmission of html templates.
>>109923665A problem anon, I don't think you really grasp what you're talking about. Writing started out as cave paintings. Meaning was communicated as a non-linear arbitrary form-and-space matrix. Do you know why we stopped doing that? Because it sucks. We developed linear writing systems with constrained sets of glyphs and a limited set of composition rules because we found out over a long period of time that's the best way to communicate things.>that's why many casual devs would rather embed a full web browser rather than deal with that messThey're not "embedding a full web browser". They're embedding the same graphics toolkit as a web browser. The parsers and runtimes for the DSLs that make declarative GUI easy.The flexibility you're asking for doesn't come for free. The more you want to do, the easier and slicker you want it to be, the more it becomes exactly the thing you hate.>a system that we saw glances of its superiority in many separate projectsHave you ever actually "used" any of those "separate projects"? The 85:15 principle applies in spades. Technical demos get 15% of the work done for 85% of the presentation. The remaining 85% of the work is where the wheat is cut from the chaff. There's a reason all the good Amiga UIs hand-rolled their own code instead of using the system UI libraries like MUI. CLIM is a massive specification, rivaling web standards in complexity and cruft, and is just as inappropriate and resource-heavy beyond simple applications. Squeak scales like absolute shit, and I don't just mean performance-wise. A large project is unwieldy and unworkable when you're hampered by retarded shit like the system browser's total lack of organization. Industrial Smalltalk abandoned it a very long time ago.What you're suggesting is appropriate as a specific application. It's not appropriate as a general interface to use a computer.
>>109930754you're the discord zoomer, hypermedia is older than the web and your meme htmx, the hypermedia idea goes back to 1945 with Memex, maybe even older, it's just the general name of an interactive media.
Isn't this solved already by arcan
>>109932092and it's as retarded then as it was now. you resurrected a dead meme for your shitty movement and now you're claiming oldfag status when everyone knows you're a larping zoomie. you lie like a jew you stupid fuck
>>109923710>tranny
>>109923665Problems with terminal is same as problems with programming languages, operating systems, tooling, etc,...: it's all built on the assumption that you are an academic who will understand the jargon, or that you have 5 years of your life free to work full time on doing nothing but learning the jargon and everything else.If you simply rewrite the jargon on the assumption that a random 14 year old kid with no experience beyond game modding should be able to pick it up and go, then you'll solve about half the difficulties people face in all these domains.Why is * both a type (type pointer) and an operator (get me the address of whatever)? Because fuck you, scrub; that's why.The other half is the lack of explicit behaviors, the bias towards implicit behaviors, which fucks people.You can't just code, you have to remember to doogle your kerfluffle, and that your croids tend to brurq when snargled.Just make everything explicit. Types, return values, type modifiers, make it all fucking explicit, and then it simply becomes a matter of sitting your ass down and grinding through the lessons.You don't have to hold all that extra shit in your head, just the problem. The syntax and semantics stay on the page where they belong.Anyone who complains about this is a computer janitor who will be out of a job and homeless soon.This is the way in which C sucks, unix sucks, terminal sucks.Ambiguity: bad!Implicit behavior: bad!Reuse of vocabulary in wildly different contexts: bad!Vocabulary that is not understandable by a teenage boy who just got done making his first game mod: bad!---Otherwise built in terminal multiplexing with details of background operations occurring in one terminal pane would be nice too.
>>109935534jargon is an essential information compression behavior that human beings exhibit in literally everything. 5 years to learn something is nothing. thinking the hard part of programming is notation or semantics and soending this much time exclusive bitching about them is a self-report that you genuinely aren't cut out for this. go back to prompting claude.
>>109930912no, writing systems developed the way they did to better match how it may be spoken. language is first and foremost something you communicate verbally with, it's what our brains were made for wrt language.
op have you tried yazi
>>109930912Personally, I don't hate web browsers as GUI toolkits. There's an argument to be made that the most common thing that people do now which takes advantage of this is to re-render a page whenever a file (in the UNIX sense) gets written to, and no one wants to pursue that workflow any deeper.>>109935534>Why is * both a type (type pointer) and an operator (get me the address of whatever)? Because fuck you, scrub; that's why.Because it's a convenient trick for moving the pointer across the assignment operator.Abuse of notation isn't an abuse if you just make it part of the grammar.
Terminal needs to be simpler not more complex. No escape codes. No text. Bitstream in bitstream out. Let other parts handle what to do with the bits.
>>109923665TempleOS already did this.
>>109935646You're not actually disagreeing with my point, which is about layout linearity being a developed innovation to improve efficiency in written communication. You're saying "No it wasn't about improving communication, it was about improving communication" which is completely incoherent. The entire point is that writing systems were refined over millenia, over and over again, to bring layout linearity into existence. Oftentimes regressing (eg the Greeks and their "as the ox plows" shit) just to relearn the lesson that layout linearity was developed for a reason.On the mechanism itself. You're putting the cart before horse. Scriptism isn't a fixed feature of writing systems. Pic related was before cuneiform even developed the ability to encode sentences. Layout linearity was developed much, much later on top of that. Egyptian borrowed the rebus principle from later cuneiform and adapted it to its own writing system, but never developed a linear layout for example.But again, the point wasn't that layout linearity isn't an improvement. The point is that it IS an improvement. The improvement is in the efficiency of communication. That includes encoding and decoding. And you may be surprised at how easily things can be communicated to you in terms that aren't actually language. That's just one medium among innumerably many. Communication is the point. Language is a means to an end, spoken or otherwise. Hence why this applies everywhere communication exists, including at the computer-human boundary.
>>109923710>OP got him before he could finish the sentence
