>>109924125
Let's build a compiler by Jack Crenshaw.
https://compilers.iecc.com/crenshaw/

>>109924125
Compiler? I hardly know her!

>>109924125
I've been working hard on finding a strategy to make my language easily bootstrappable. The goal is to start from nothing (by a definition of nothing I'm still working on placing right) and write the minimum amount of scaffolding to get the language working fully.
I am also trying to avoid full esoteria, so no compiling my language to brainfuck for example (which would make implementing from scratch super easy as implementing brainfuck is trivial).
Previously I was working on a forth-like strategy of extremely dense syntax and semantic structures which can easily be bootstrapped from asm on any platform. But I am now trying a different strategy which allows me to be more flexible on language implementation details by starting from an arbitrary interpreter, under the premise that it should take as few non-esoteric LOCs to get a fully working interpreter for the bootstrap to run.
I'm down to 250 lines but hoping to be able to do better with parser combinators. Maybe around 150-200 should be possible.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6whQ6CW68oe3tcmFcBLYFQChqwYEaG7_

>>109924471
Define "bootstrappable" - if you really want to start from nothing, then look at Guix and NixOS do it, you can literally bootstrap them from a 357 byte minimal assembler you are expected to be able to input into a primitive memory you build after the apocalypse by manually setting it to 0s and 1s via switches. Or just start with C like ever sane person.

Re: topic https://craftinginterpreters.com/ was pretty good.

>>109924471
250 lines for the interpreter or compiler because that's a tiny compiler if it is one?

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Since i was a compilear earlier is it possibly to just use AI to instead of having it compiel down to a simple like interepreted version of a program l

>>109924125
mixfix syntax is hard
I'd like to just say:

add a: b: =...
a: + b: = add a b

Without any special keywords like fn or operator.
So basically, I have to parse subexpressions inside out and eliminate alternatives.
It does allow for things similar to stack languages natively:
add mul 2 3 4 # (2*3)+4

The problem is actually trying to define a generic algorithm for this which doesn't have weird edge cases. I can get AI to make something that kind of works.
I also need to be able to make it fast to parse, but it's naively O(n*m) for a single expression, where n is the length of an expression and m is the total number of possible definitions.

>>109924568
The base assumption I use is being able to input machine code, in practice to input asm.
Like I said, I could just compile the program as a bootstrap sequences and brainfuck can be target 0 as it's just a few bytes and so forth.
But I want to instead make the 0 target be a turing complete subset of the language instead.

Stage0, which I think is what you're referring to, is similar to what I'm talking about above. It's also not really what you think it is or does for that reason.

>>109924601
Interpreter. I also deliberately avoid all golfing.
The current concept is that "if it is small on arbitrary hll X -> it can be short in asm" with the possibility of compiling from a hll into some asm and manually patching for a target arch, or writing it from scratch in asm. That is, I am trying to see if adding the assumption that you can start with an arbitrary but existing system can add flexibility and convenience to the bootstrap process at the cost of being less convenient to do straight on a new chip/by hand, say.

>>109924471
You should look at how BCPL did it in the late 1960's. BCPL could be ported to a new machine in just a few days, and was enormously successful in its day, it was the implementation language for Xerox's OS that hosted Smalltalk and Cedar/Mesa, and was heavily used at AT&T, and was used to write the operating system of the Commodore Amiga. It's well known that C was a descendant of a language called B, but what is less well known is that B was essentially BCPL ported to the DEC PDP-7, with a few syntax tweaks to better fit with the DEC VT keyboards. In BCPL [] and {} were interchangeable for delimiting code blocks, because most keyboards had one or the other but very few had both and some had neither (so it also supported $( $) for those keyboards that had neither); it used ! for array indexing and pointer dereferencing; B used [] for array indexing and {} for blocks.

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>>109924125
What is your favorite language to build an interpreter in? I really like doing it in Java! <3

>>109924471
My bootstrapping strategy was to define a procedural subset of my language then write the full compiler in it.

>>109924912
>BCPL
Thank you for posting about this. I didn't know about this language. Do you know other interesting languages from this era? I think the 1960s-1980s had the most interesting programming languages. My favorite from that era is SNOBOL4. What is yours?

>>109924610
ESL or stoned i cant tell

I can now concatenate tables including strings since strings are also tables which is nice.

_tabcat(\a, b, i =
    | i < b.len : (
        tablepush(a, b[i])
        _tabcat(a, b, i + 1)
    ) _
)

tabcat(\a, b =
    result = copy a
    _tabcat(result, b, 0)
    copy result
)

main(\= puts(tabcat("hi ", "there")))

>>109925946
My favorite is Java too since that's the only language I've made interpreters in.

>>109924912
BCPL compiled to "intcode" which is why it was able to bootstrap "easily" on other machines (just implement the easy vm and you're done). That would once again be equivalent to my proposal to compile the interpreter to brainfuck and then just having to implement brainfuck on targets. That again has the distraction of requiring another engine/language and less clarity in the source program (in brainfuck form).

Ultimately the intermediary language I will be using is tree-shaped with lzw compression and will compile from that form. So either I have to drop features of this representation to make it easier to interpret and have to rely on the existence of a full system elsewhere anyway, or rely on a completely different system, if I use this approach.

>>109925946
Smooth pussy status?

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>>109924125
really struggling with how to do proper eval
seems like I will have to rewrite half my code to get to it
I started with the incorrect assumption that build time and runtime will be separate phases

>>109925946
>favorite
it would probably be haskell

>>109927477
BCPL shipped with two backends to the compiler, the one that compiled to "intcode" (about a day to roll an interpreter in asm) and another one that compiled to "ocode" which was easy to convert into a native-code compiler. You would write an interpreter for intcode with your local machine's assembler, then use the intcode version of the compiler to compile and run the ocode compiler as you tweaked it to generate native code for your local machine. When you were done you ran your BCPL runtime library through your ocode compiler, ran your ocode compiler through your ocode compiler, and linked them using your local linker to get a native BCPL compiler. Total time to get a running intcode BCPL compiler on your machine was about a day, to get a native BCPL compiler on your machine was about a week. At least one implementation of BCPL at Xerox used the ocode compiler as-is and just used a JIT compiler to compile to native code at load time (this is because the Xerox machines loaded microcode at boot time so the same hardware had lots of different instruction sets, sometimes down to the individual machine).

>>109925946
>chainsaw man
Kill yourself IMMEDIATELY

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>>109929359
I don't know what a chainsaw man is. I just like cute maids.

>>109929348
Thank you for the continued history lesson about BCPL <3

>>109929464
>I don't know what a chainsaw man is. I just like cute maids.
Reze is from chainsaw man

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>>109929485
I think it would be interesting if there was a Chainsaw Maid show and it is about a cute maid who uses a chainsaw to cut down some trees and make her ideal maid cafe.

>>109924135
Based, parsing Pascal is like 10 times easier than parsing C.

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>>109924125
What are your thoughts on DARPA's Nucleic Acid Compiler? (creating molecular machines that can be expressed in living cells to translate optical signals directly into DNA and RNA sequences on demand)
https://news.ucsb.edu/2026/022777/ucsb-professor-lands-darpa-award-develop-mini-dna-factories

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>>109929559
I would love to work on this project, but it is probably proprietary. It might be fun to try to build a public domain one? You probably couldn't actually make the DNA/RNA without impossible to get equipment, but the idea of taking a program written in a human readable language and compiling it to a DNA/RNA sequence is fascinating and could probably be done on consumer hardware if you knew what the DNA/RNA sequences you were building from did. Like make some base grammar that maps into simple things you know, almost like an assembly language, then build higher level languages that target it. Basically, treat DNA/RNA like machine code.

My first question would be what is the purpose of doing this? Is it to explore computation on a new substrate? How could computation on DNA/RNA be simulated? Very fascinating. Thank you for sharing it <3

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>>109929540
I was thinking about this more, because I am waiting on my OS to recompile.

Maybe Chainsaw Maid becomes Chainsaw Maids, and a contest where maids make ice and wood sculptures with chainsaws, and there is a big competition about making these things? That way the story gets a lot more maids in it.

>>109929796
I know someone who’s done this already. You cannot make the DNA or proteins or whatever full stop. You will get hit with bioterrorism laws really fast if you try to turn that into anything physical.

>>109930680
Nonsense. There are plenty of home kits that take you all the way to CRISPR-based genetic modification on things like axiolotl's for $500.
>>109929796
We don't know how anything works so it's impossible to compile instructions to cDNA. There are generally 2 ways these things work. Either it's simply something like expression_system([tag] + [protein] + [linker type] + [other protein] + [cap]) and it pops out an optimized sequence of the expression system, or it's something like "IgG + gfp - Fc" and it gives you a sequence that expresses the chains for an IgG with a gfp molecule attached and no Fc region. Eitherway it's a total meme.

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>>109930680
Why would it get problems from laws? Is trying to compile a program to DNA illegal?

>>109930716
So, is the purpose running computations on axolotls? I think I am probably misunderstanding the goal. What happens if you crash the axolotl?

>>109930818
In this case you'd do something like make the axiolotl fluorescent. You could do other things like introduce albinism or change its skin tone with this. You can also do more serious work like introducing knockout to investigate regeneration (axiolotl are a common animal model for this).

>>109924125
I need a qrd on lexer and parser algorithms/techniques/strategies. Which one is the best for a brand new project? I know jack shit about parsers

>>109930842
A left-caching packrat parser is ideal. It is fast, handles recursion correctly, and can parse anything worth parsing. It's also extremely easy to write, understand, maintain and extend. I like to combine lex and parse into one but that's a matter of taste.

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>>109930842
It depends entirely on what you are parsing. What are you parsing and why? What is the goal of the system?

>>109930838
Programming axolotls to make them glow in the dark sounds interesting, but what is the point if you can't use it for computation?

>>109930885
A DSL that looks like a programming language

I got hashmaps working in the table language not just maps. Hashmaps are really fast.

it's either this or networking, I need to fill the gap in my knowledge

>>109930716
>>109930818
Wanted to 3d print some protein structures and got told this violated some such law. I’m not a lawyer, I’m just saying what they told me the limits were.

>>109931802
Who told you that? The clanker? Lmao.

>>109931851
The person who made it

>>109931979
Obviously not.

>>109931991
It’s “obvious” to you because…? I don’t understand the need to come across so hostile for someone just recounting a conversation. Have a walk if you’re getting angry.

>>109932031
Because you're asking to get a little plastic toy but instead of representing bing bing wahoo man it represents a protein, something that is readily available in kits you can buy in toy sections for kids in any toy store, and supposedly someone told you that's illegal.
Nevermind the fact that even ordering plasmids or full proteins is fully commoditized and has been for over 3 decades now and fully available to anyone.

>>109932056
More or less, yes. I was told by a biologist who made a demo where you can generate a protein she was not allowed to distribute 3d printed souvenirs to attendees of an event in Australia due to some biosecurity or bioterrorism law.
I don’t know what you want here. There’s nothing to be gained from these posts you’re making, you’re just going to have to take it or leave it or cool yourself off somehow, I don’t know what to tell you lol

>>109932088
Yes, there's nothing to be gained from your schizo posts. Take your meds.

>>109932129
lol
Anyway if you’re done spamming the thread with cries for attention I think this was actually about interpreters and compilers

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>>109929559
Does computation on DNA just work like a chemical reaction network? If so, you can probably make a language which emits a chemical reaction network.

I don't know. I would need to do more research. I could probably make something (CS only, not physically make the DNA) for less than $1.7 million. How do I get the government to give me money?

I'm getting burnt out from developing my compiler. What should I do?

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>>109932332
If you have an interpreter in your language, write programs for it. You can use them to test your compiler later.

>>109932392
I don't and I still need to add loops to the thing.

>>109924125
what's with your obsession with mixing programming with being a massive homo?

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>>109932412
Make an interpreter and write programs. This will help you make sure you like the syntax/semantics in a place where you can change it easily if you find needed changes. You will also have a library of test programs for your compiler.

>>109932439
Everybody interested in this topic is wearing a maid outfit. There are millions of maids reading this thread right now and they're all doing heart hands.

I am trying to write an optimizing compiler for C in C. I don't have much education on this subject and just read a bit of the dragon book and a bit from a book about SSA. My plan is to turn the C code into SSA IR in one pass as I already know all the statements that branch and am pretty sure it can work without generating dominance frontiers and whatnot (ignoring goto). And then optimizing passes and codegen which I am pretty new to and don't know much about. As I didn't want to reinvent the wheel, I designed my SSA based on an old version LLVM IR and thought a lot about managing memory, so I use a weird pool/arena allocator where many structures end with an array with unspecified length. At this point I parse most of C apart from some weird struct initialization expressions. The parser is around 1000 lines ignoring all the struct definitions, auxiliary data structures, and memory management code. Progress is pretty slow as I do a lot of premature optimization (pointer tagging and abusing structure alignment), refactoring, and macro abuse. I am now finishing my needlessly generic hashtable and dynamic array implementations, and changing the symbol table implementation to save 8 bytes per structure and have nicer alignment. I will probably make it into an interpreter before starting to generate SSA to weed out many parsing bugs, but I don't have any idea how to properly test it. My long term goal is a C compiler with some of the simpler optimization (as I doubt I will be able to do any non trivial aliasing analysis) that compiles to at least RISC-V, maybe SUBLEQ and probably not very good x86. Also simple JIT like the C compiler from IOCCC by Fabrice Bellard seems interesting and not too difficult.

Lol, I made a for loop without even adding for loops to the compiler.

main(\=
    s = ""
    i = 0; while (
        i = i + 1; i <= 10
    ) : (
        tablepush(s, 'a')
        puts(s)
    )
)

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>>109932874
How does this work? It doesn't appear like you're using recursion. How did you make while loops work without adding them to the compiler?

>>109932874
Whats that inverted slash?

>>109933078
I added while loops to the compiler and got funny looking for loops through parentheses and semicolons.

main(\=
l = list[42 5 74 3 27 19 10]
i = -1; while (;i = i + 1; i < l.len):(
putiln(l[i])
)
)

>>109932754
Why are you doing pointer tagging?

>The parser is around 1000
That's too few for a complete C parser, C is not as simple as a lot of people think, its a not CGF.

>>109933172
For some reason it removed my indentation.

main(\=
l = list[42 5 74 3 27 19 10]
i = -1; while (;i = i + 1; i < l.len):(
putiln(l[i])
)
)

>>109933135
It starts functions.

>>109933193
Niggerlicious. You should use =\ because it looks like λ.

>>109933424
No. It's from Haskell.

>>109933178
>Why are you doing pointer tagging?
because if I use normal tagged unions, after padding I waste 8 bytes for 5 bits or less of tag, so I just make sure my 32 byte struct is aligned to its size when allocated and I have 5 free bits for the tag. Most structs also just happen to be a nice 16 bytes or 32 bytes without the tag

>That's too few for a complete C parser, C is not as simple as a lot of people think, its a not CGF.
well I don't have the operator callbacks written or the control flow statements like if for while, but they are easy. I mostly finished declarations, declarators, function args, struct definition which seem to be the more complex parts. (reference for everything is the C99 standard). I have to add the callbacks and I have a working interpreter.
C not being CFG or even LL at all is mostly a problem for parser generators. Writing a recursive descent parser by hand for C is mostly straight forward, as the not being CFG parts is a single symbol table insertion and query for typedefs. The other problem is function prototype/definition/variable declaration conflict which happens only at the global scope, so it can be resolved not too difficultly. Another weird things is the declarator syntax seeming to be backwards, but I figured out how to parse it.

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>>109933424
Please be polite in the maid thread.

>>109933436
I don't know much about Haskell. I haven't used it in 20 years. Was your language inspired by it, or is it more Lua influenced since it is table oriented?

>>109933482
It's probably more influenced by Haskell.

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>>109933492
I had an idea for the name. Maybe call it Tabby and the mascot is a cat girl maid? Maybe Colette like columns in a table? Or maybe Pyon and it is still rabbit themed and has a cute bunny maid?

>>109933552
I like Tabby.

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>>109933492
What do you like about Haskell? Also, can your language do low level stuff?

>>109933580
<3

>>109931851
It’s ironic because when I googled this to find out who was right you can quickly find >>109931802 is actually correct lol

>>109935249
I am a biologist. I know what is allowed and not allowed both for actually ordering proteins and plasmids, and here he's talking about 3d printing a toy. Again, you can literally buy a protein 3d structure in any kids' toy store in the world. Stop believing the clanker.

>>109930885
> but what is the point if you can't use it for computation?
I don't think the point of the DNA compiler is to use DNA as a new form of computation. I think the point is to be able to easily produce custom strings(?) of DNA. And I think the point of the axolotl thing is to mess with the DNA of things and see how it effects them.

>>109933187
You should put the syntax of your language somewhere, I keep forgetting it. If you don't want to put it on a website, you could put it on rentry or pastebin etc

>>109933424
>Niggerlicious. You should use = because it looks like λ.
I plan to do what Chez Scheme does, turn lambda into λ when you type it in. I might also have ^y as a shortcut that does the same thing.

>>109935713
>I am a biologist. I know what is allowed and not allowed both for actually ordering proteins and plasmids, and here he's talking about 3d printing a toy. Again, you can literally buy a protein 3d structure in any kids' toy store in the world. Stop believing the clanker.
The person who said it wasn't allowed mentioned bioterrorism etc laws in Australia. It probably depends on what country you live in.

>>109936026
IT'S
A
TOY
A 3D PLASTIC MODEL
HELLO? DO YOU HAVE SOMETHING IN YOUR SKULL OR IS IT JUST AIR?

>>109924125
I was writing a fantasy stdlib yesterday, which includes features I haven't yet implemented in the actual compiler...
How to get out of delusion coding mode?

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>>109937226
Put on your maid outfit, then implement what you need in the compiler and then make the fantasy library a real one.

>>109936006
>I don't think the point of the DNA compiler is to use DNA as a new form of computation.
This makes it less interesting, if true. I was looking at chemical reaction networks more, and they basically just look like string rewriting to me. If this is correct, they would actually be an ideal project for MAIDS. But I don't want a programmable lizard if programming it means it glows in the dark, and not that I can compute a big factorial on the lizard. It looks like CRNs have universal computation, but working with DNA might have some extra constraints I don't know about which break that.

>>109936041
Please be polite in the maid thread. Most maids have never been interested in biology before, because their main focus is Math or Computer Science. Maids are international and it is possible that that maid lives in Australia, and Australia is a big jail with strange laws and dangerous wildlife. So it is possible that something which would be considered innocuous globally would be illegal there.

>>109937744
The only laws in strayacuntland related to this is the same basic laws as anywhere else in the world. I checked to make sure. Namely, you can't get DNA or RNA to cross a country border (i.e. don't export or import without a license). That's literally it.
And we're not even talking about biology here, but again, a 3d printed plastic "symbol".

>>109924125
eli is a pervert who gets sexually aroused by wearing victorian maid dress and defecating in them. He's never been and won't ever be a programmer. He don't even like animes, the only few he's watched were english dubbed

>>109924125
is that fucking don quixote

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>>109937883
>victorian maid dress
These are usually not very moe. More like the female equivalent of a tuxedo. A good maid outfit should be cute and ideally show off huge boobs, since a maid outfit is an outfit for huge boobs.

>>109938088
Don Quixote is a cute maid. I like her more as a maid than as a knight with dementia who tilts at windmills.

I got not only for loops but also ternaries without even adding them to the compiler.

1 && puts("hi") || puts("hello")

>>109939626
I like things like these because I am a big fan of language simplification and universal construction.

>>109938200
yeah yeah we get it retard, you have big boobs, that doesnt make you better than us q_q every body is different and boobs are not everything

>>109935713
Ok but it literally says it is in fact illegal to do that lol

>>109939667
But it literally isn't and the law is very clear on that.

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>>109935713
>I am a biologist.
Could you please explain more the purpose of the DNA compiler? If it isn't for computation, what is it for? Is the idea just to make the lizard glow in the dark, or become albino via code, instead of the current methods of doing this?

>>109940816
It's like 2 other anons said before in the thread. It's not for computing, it's for getting the sequence that fits some properties of interest. For example you want to produce an antibody in ecoli, so you need to basically have the ecoli absorb DNA that encodes the protein of interest. But ecoli transcription and translation machinery is more efficient if you use certain codon patterns over others that would otherwise encode the same thing, so you want that to be optimized as well. I'm simplifying everything, including bacterial transformation, for brevity, but you should get the gist.

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>>109940894
Thank you for telling me. I don't find this particular application interesting, because I am not a biologist. But now I am stuck on the idea of can I use a chemical reaction network made from DNA components to compute factorial on a lizard? Do you think DARPA would give me money for a working lizard compiler that runs factorial on the lizard and is released to Public Domain?

>>109941105
There are things like biological networks that can be trained to perform functions. I think it's been done with rat brains before, for example. But this is more literal than you probably intend.
RNA constructs have some programmatic-like behaviors, like the siRNA-mRNA-tRNA interaction dynamics. Also, proteins like GPCRs have switch mechanics (they can enter a bound or unbound state, which changes their conformation and their ability to bind to 3rd molecules), they can thus act like transistors. GPCRs are very interesting study targets in biology because they are complex to target due to the conformational changes and lack of good 3d modeling tools (alphafold et al are dogshit despite the hype), but potentially very useful targets in many diseases, especially several cancers. But we don't know how to engineer them just yet.
In pure chemistry, there are existing single-atom transistor designs which probably is as close as it gets.
The main issue with computing with biology would be the speed of reaction. The same would be true in "pure chemistry". Basically a gpcr takes 30-50ms to switch conformation, and getting a metal ion in place takes some time to even trigger the conformation change etc.

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>>109941262
I have created a MAIDS program which assembles a very simple program for factorial into a chemical reaction network. It is not fast. Four factorial took about 8 minutes because number of reactions increases super-linearly. I might be able to restrict this only to chemicals in DNA/RNA. If I can get factorial working on DNA, would you please run it on your axolotl to see if the axolotl computes four factorial?

I am assuming you came from DARPA to make friendly relations with the Science Foundation for Maids? If the axolotl compiler works and the compiled program runs on your axolotl, does that count as friendly relations? Then I publish the compiler to Public Domain, along with the data from a program running on the axolotl and other maids can reproduce the research independently and DARPA gets happy somehow because now they can use axolotls for computation instead of just making it glow in the dark?

>>109941812
It would cost about $3-4k for raw materials alone assuming it all goes well on the first try. In practice, a protocol would need to be devised and tested.
It would probably be a good idea to use one of these engineered minicell constructs for a poc and do it in vitro. The program could be composed of a binary encoding based on the conformational state of the gpcr. Another usable mechanism is the conformational change induced by photoswitching in gfp's. In the gpcr case, some kind of mechanism would be required to observe the state. Some gpcr are metal-activated, and tf binds iron as part of the tfr-tf iron trafficking pathway, so this could be used to create the mechanistic switch between states.
Using these principles, you would then have to build building blocks (nand gates, then the rest is easy enough).
A program would then be a linear chain of these nand gates, but it's not possible to express a protein that large, so you'll have to express the program by parts and conjugate using compatible tags.
In total I estimate the required pocs should take about 1.5y end to end, with a budget around 50-70k, excluding salary, rent, and any machine that needs to be acquired.

What's a good argument against function overloading?

What's a good argument against operator overloading

What is love?

Tabby now has a Brainfuck to C compiler.

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MAIDS is memory safe now. That happened yesterday, but I forgot to say it here.

>>109942330
A maid with huge boobs (see attached).

>>109942034
I don't have this amount of money.