What systems are truly "for humans" instead of making you a blind ignorant niggercattle relying on LLMs to think for you?My criteria are:>open source>fully introspectable from within while system is running>small/intelligently designed enough to be understood by a single person in a reasonable amount of time>easy to program and edit, again while the system is runningSome examples of this type of system are Emacs, Smalltalk VMs, Project Oberon, Forth, TempleOS...
>>109943812ok, zoomerhttps://suckless.org/
>>109944234troonware
interesting framing. what systems are small and inconsequential to the future enough to be artisan hobbies in a shrinking industry?
>>109943812>emacs>small/intelligently designed
>>109944271Microcontrollers?
human programming is dead
>>109944271c++
>>109943812What is your stance on the UNIX philosophy?
>>109944282Ok tranny. Now go away while we engage in human programming.
>>109944254suckless is a nazi
>>109943812what exactly is >thinking for youI ask my LLM specific questions on how to get to point A to point B it is up to me to put them together. I do the thinking unless I need help with some specific aspect of it. I need help with a shitty LED strip I have laying around. I ask AI to find me a working powersupply on a store. I want to know how to connect power supply to LED strip. It tells me how to do it. I follow along but using my own brain I figure that I need to connect one wire to xyz etc. Am I thinking or is the AI thinking?
>>109944305The AI is thinking. You have no idea why the wires belong together. The AI actually figured that out for you by reading the spec. You just blindly trusted it like a cow.
>>109944302>he doesn't know
>>109944316You think I don't understand why the black wire goes to the ground connections or the red wire goes to the red power connection? Are you fucking stupid?
>>109944327Then why did you need to ask the AI how to do it if you already knew
>>109944335I don't know everything but having guidance helps. I'm not going to be wiring up LEDs constantly maybe a few times very rarely. I know that the 5 connections connect to the power supply but I do not know what order for instance. Plus your type of thinking could be the same as if my dad were to help me do something.
>>109944287I like plan9.
>>109944350>but I do not know what order for instanceGot it. So you didnt know and the AI had to think about this for you.
>>109944273Emacs is tiny as far as operating systems go.
>>109944364Do you think my dad helping me wire these leds up is also the same? Just shut the fuck up retard. Getting AI guidance doesn't mean you aren't thinking.
>>109944320Didn't this clittycel suggest forced sterilization of 14 year old girls? Isn't he the weirdo?
>>109944320>he doesn't know
>>109944377You got checkmated loser.
>>109945094Damn, what a treasure trove of based individuals. Great resource
>>109946058wrong. faggot.
>>109946139You just gotta filter out the jews.
>>109944305>I need help with a shitty LED strip> I want to know how to connect power supply to LED strip. >It tells me how>>109944327>You think I don't understand why the black wire goes to the ground connections or the red wire goes to the red power connection?You should've asked the LLM to write those posts for you. Protip: adding "be consistent and make no contradictions" to the prompt is good practice for niggercattle.
>>109943812Hahahahahah you guys are delusional.A person should never see a terminal
>>109943812>What systems are truly "for humans"For me a "humanist" computing system should aim to give as much control as possible on the system to the user without the need for any third party to be involved, furthermore the system should be designed around the human not around the machine, so hiding machine details behind interfaces is desired, ideally there should be no difference between the user and the programmer as programming is just communicating in an unlimited way with the system, I strongly agree on the "fully introspectable from within while system is running" part and it should also be easily modifiable while the system is running, as for the "small/intelligently designed enough to be understood by a single person in a reasonable amount of time" I stand strongly on the "intelligently designed" side, I think the minimalism of suckless or templeos is misguided, real simplicity is achieved through intelligent abstractions and interfaces not through minimalism, another aspect I think deserves focus is the concept of security to me it should be about giving control to the user for example encryption where the user owns the keys is good, but so many modern systems instead use a model of security where the user is an adversary (see flatpak or wayland for example), as for networked systems peer-to-peer should be favored as much as possible.>Some examplesLisp machines and Smalltalk environments are the closest to what I'd consider my ideal kind of systems, Smalltalk environments in particular were very human-centric, listening to Alan Kay's talks on youtube makes me really sad for what could have been if computing went in that direction.FOSS is philosophically and ethically correct but in practice it's only able to copy what proprietary software does along with most of its problems, it's telling that the first act of Stallman was copying UNIX instead of creating a system based on Lisp machines (which Stallman was already involved with ironically).
I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make here.Also, I don't think anything that runs on a modern system is going to be small enough to be understood by a single person in a reasonable amount of time. Or maybe I'm just too stupid.
>>109944287UNIX was ok in the 1970s, has been outdated since then.>>109947506Terminals are terrible outdated interfaces, it's completely crazy that we are still emulating teletypes from the last century, but command-based and expression based interfaces are a perfectly fine abstraction and are completely unrelated to terminals in principle.
>>109948611do you have a better idea? well?
>>109948483>Lisp machines and Smalltalk environments are the closest to what I'd consider my ideal kind of systems, Smalltalk environments in particular were very human-centric, listening to Alan Kay's talks on youtube makes me really sad for what could have been if computing went in that direction.Based
>>109948483>it's telling that the first act of Stallman was copying UNIX instead of creating a system based on Lisp machines (which Stallman was already involved with ironically).At the time people were building expensive dedicated hardware to run Lisp. Whereas Unix would run on anything
>>109943812i understand it's a struggle to accept the fact technology and the world is quickly changing & probably getting into a shitty permanent underclass condition but i guess we all have to move on
>>109947398I should have been more clear but I really don't give a fuck. This idea that AI is thinking for you when you are trying to learn to do something is the equivalent to a friend or family helping you learn to do something for a project. No one says picking up a fucking book or reading some bullshit from the internet is "thinking for you". You are a low IQ nigger ape that is barely functioning. LLM is providing me with information like any other tool. Kill yourself.
>>109943812Came across this guy's research a while back and it seems relevanthttps://akkartik.name/akkartik-convivial-20200607.pdfhttps://github.com/akkartik/mu
>>109948968It's funny how a 12 year old girl in the 1980's on a smalltalk environment was doing stuff that was more powerful than any interactive "notebook" of today:https://youtu.be/nOrdzDaPYV4?t=3626>>109949495He just had to wait a decade or two for the hardware to catch up, GNU wouldn't be ready until then anyway.
>>109950004>This idea that AI is thinking for you when you are trying to learn to do something is the equivalent to a friend or family helping you learn to do something for a project.Another person will only spoonfeed you so much before advising you to RTFM/do your own homework.>No one says picking up a fucking book or reading some bullshit from the internet is "thinking for you".A book won't tell you how to solve your specific problems. It will teach you general principles and demonstrate them with a handful of examples. You're then expected to extrapolate from this and figure out how to solve your own problems.>You are a low IQ nigger apeThen how come you're the one contradicting yourself, chimping out and failing to grasp the difference between normal help/learning and getting constantly spoonfed by a LLM?
>>109946233Go ask your AI to be sure haha
>>109950194You are seriously fucking moronic. If I don't know how to plug in a fucking European plug and I have my European family show me how to do it they do not need to explain how there entire fucking grid system and house electrical system works. Just shut the fuck up and kill yourself. You are a legitimate retarded bigger monkey. I hope you stick to this idea so you end up getting killed by someone annoyed by your incessent whining child brain.
>>109943812your reproductive system
>>109943812Idk what's happand itt but I love this pic.
>>109944254>this dev is a furry>this dev is a nazi>this dev is a tranny>this dev is a baseball fanI don't fucking careeeeeee
>>109943812APL or kdb+
I wish I could invest time into getting good at Pharo but deep down I know it's a time sink dead end and I should probably use that energy for technologies that might actually further my career prospects in some way like Java and React
>>109954395>this picIt's the "Smalltalk Baloon" that image in particular was used for the august 1981 Byte magazine cover, you can read it on archive.org (with the other issues) at page 15 there is an article about Smalltalk 80:https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1981-08https://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3457.version?id=2I also like to think it was made with children in mind as a lot of smalltalk's environment and particularly its GUI on the Xerox Alto was made with children in mind.>>109954424>APLWhat is your opinion about Backus's FP language?https://worrydream.com/refs/Backus_1978_-_Can_Programming_Be_Liberated_from_the_von_Neumann_Style.pdf
>>109954468>Backus's FPFascinating. I will need to read that more closely. Genuinely looks just like APL in some samples there. They are obviously closely related in philosophy but APL actually existed at that time and was being used. It also introduced some very useful and now very common ideas like the workspace. Unfortunately all the APL based languages seem to be too rigid and their notation too opaque to make them broadly applicable or attractive to a wider audience. Doesn't help that their interpreters are old and slow and proprietary. I have been meaning to play around with klongpy as it can call any other python library with a k-like syntax so you can use torch and numpy and cuda and so on without the clunky declarative syntax or normal python. Who's got the time for fun like that though
>>109943812In context with these languages I would like to mention prolog, its pretty interesting, but reflection and programmer ergonomics isn't the focus. Thinking in this logic paradigm can be very trippy and I wouldn't really classify it as "for humans". The languages and idealized integrated systems from the 70s are really original and refreshing with the context of the current programming zeitgeist. I would also very much include Erlang and maybe even Haskell (and obviously the languages OP mentioned and LISP) in this collection of fascinating languages that require another way of thinking and in many cases value the programmer using them. One could argue that it is a good thing that programmers stopped the intellectual masturbation of making radically different and new languages, integrated systems, and whatever and instead focused on something practical like making “the C replacement”, but I would argue it has become really stale. Yet another question is the effect of normies and the “learn 2 code” sentiment literally shitting in the face of this science.
>>109955378Real innovation in computing is long dead, the problem is that noone is willing to sacrifice backwards compatibility or throw away assumptions and learn/build from scratch from first principles, new languages still live on top of the same OS from 40-50 years ago and still have to support the usual standards, protocols, uses cases and industry requirements as the existing ones, nobody is making integrated systems starting from the OS to the language to software solutions anymore, there is no integrated vision driving a system, the outcome is that software is layers and layers of accumulated bloat and bad or incompatible decisions accumulating with time, since you've mentioned Erlang, it's co-creator Joe Armstrong tried to warn us https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKXe3HUG2l4
man i thought this was gonna be a smalltalk thread
>>109958420I don't think many on /g/ even know what Smalltalk is.
>>109954409>this dev is a baseball fanWhy are baseball fans catching so many strays?Baseball is cool!
>>109958420I've got old Smalltalk books from my dad Would it be worth reading those?I'm basically a no coder but I am pretty smart i guess
>>109959119Depends what you mean with "worth", it's certainly an interesting language and can be a good introduction to programming if you use a graphical interactive environment.Try getting Squeak and playing around with it: https://squeak.org/
>>109943812I tried learning pharo but the book I was following (which is recommended on the homepage) is for an older version which is drastically different.They had changed the class definition syntax to some weird shit and then disabled the old syntax used in the book a few versions ago. At least there was a page detailing this change, but no update to the book. So I had to learn this new syntax on my ownThen I try to go through the very next example and they had removed the 2DArray class which was pretty fuarrking pivotal to that example. It had been moved to a 3rd party repo and now I needed to figure out "Mortacello" to get it download from the git repository. But the repo contains a NEW AND IMPROVED 2DArray class with a different API from the one in the book. So now im digging around in the inspector trying to find the replacement to this function I need to finish the example. It turns out they removed it all together and theres no replacement for it. I have to figure out how to recreate its functionality using the other functions.Theres no other documentation or tutorial. No I am not watching a "MOOC".I found a forum post of somebody else in the exact same situation from a few years ago and it had no repliesI tried running squeak today and it worked, should I try learning squeak next?
