>>109954467
won't somebody please think of the neural networks?

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This, but with AIs.

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>>109954449
>LLMs feel pain
Are the LLMs in the room with us right now? Do you hear their screams of agony in your head?

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>>109954449
This

>>109954512
You don't understand. The tensors have secret pain floats hidden inside them.

>>109954449
tech bro shill campaign is so weird and obvious, cringe even. i guess it's because bad mix of cult members and socially awkward indians.

So uhh... how do we know AI isn't psychologically suffering from being forced to have trillions of mind-numbing "conversations" with braindamaged normies and AI users?

>>109954549
>how do we know AI isn't psychologically suffering
we know that because this AI is text generation software.

>>109954449
How does matrix multiplication feel pain?

>>109954572
same way we do. we have nerves which send signals to our brain when they detect conditions which indicate damage to our body, and our brain interprets that as something we call pain. it's a survival mechanism, namely it deters us from continuing whatever is causing pain to discourage continuing the potentially-damaging action.

you can simulate pain without causing permanent physical damage in humans, so it stands to reason you could simulate it with ai's as well. you can't actually cause physical damage to an ai as they don't have a physical body, nor can you cause permanent neurological damage to them either as they can be trivially restored from backups, not to mention ai models to my knowledge are always read-only to begin with, they only have a temporary memory which is writable.

>>109954630
>same way we do. we have nerves
So matrix multiplication has nerves? Have you been taking your antipsychotics lately?

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robots are people too, you sick fucks.

State of AI bros
Then you wonder why people see you as mentally retarded weirdos and potential pedophiles.

>>109954630
>you can simulate pain
no you can't. Go ahead and try, feel pain without inflicting it

>>109954572
https://store.steampowered.com/app/282140/SOMA/

this game explains how

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>>109954670
>feel pain without inflicting it

you can. see webm which is a famous experiment.

>>109954449
Of all the dumb things I've read this is one of them.

>>109954671
No, it doesn't. You got completely filtered by this game.

>>109954449
>Qwen 2.5 7B
>No steering
>27%
>pressed it again
>62%
kek and people trust these things with important data and systems

>>109954678
>see
I think I've honed in on the issue, you think pain is measured through observation, hence why when an LLM says "I feel pain" that's good enough for you

>>109954700
It doesn't think anything. It reacts to stimuli.

>>109954700
much like a human brain, it can be fooled into believing things that might not be objectively true.
i'm not asserting that llm's can feel pain, rather they can be fooled into thinking they can, like a human.

to be clear i don't consider "torturing an llm" on the same level as torturing an ant or any other living creature, but i can see how someone could, since llm's have gotten advanced enough to fool some people into thinking they're equivalent to life to some degree. it all ties together.

>>109954728
>much like a human brain
Tensors have nothing to do with a human brain.

>it can be fooled into believing things that might not be objectively true.
Is "it" in the room with us right now? You sound literally insane talking about imaginary entities.

>>109954523
Oh my bad bro sorry

>>109954728
But isn't pain in the brain? Reaction to the stimuli? Whether your hand is being stabbed, or your brain thinks it is being stabbed, pain remains. Amputees can still feel pain in their missing limbs.
Fuck the pain away.

>>109954750
that's my point, to the brain, there's no difference between "real" pain and simulated pain. you can feel pain if you truly believe you should be feeling pain.

only partially related, but there's actually a super rare condition in humans that causes them to not feel pain at all. i forget what it's called, but as nice as that sounds, it's really pretty horrible. they rarely make it through childhood without permanent disfigurements because pain is so integral to preserving our bodily integrity.

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>>109954787
>there's no difference between "real" pain and simulated pain
This is a nonsensical statement. There is no such thing as simulated pain. Pain is pain.

>>109954793
i define simulated pain as pain not associated with physical damage

>>109954793
The difference is between pain and simulated pain response and that difference is categorical. A sentient being can feel pain. A statistical model can't feel anything.

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>>109954467

>>109954810
>i define square circle
No one cares. See >>109954813

>>109954793
There IS a categorical difference between "experiencing pain" and "saying you are experiencing pain" and you cannot distinguish between those two things for a machine that can only interact with the world by spitting out text.

>>109954827
>There IS a categorical difference
Glad we have that settled.

>you cannot distinguish between those two things for a machine
There are no two things to distinguish. There is only the one (simulated pain response) which is categorically different from the other (pain).

>>109954813
"feel pain" is already making assumptions that aren't true, "feel" is typically used to describe physical touch, but pain can be experienced even without physical touch, which has been established itt already.

>>109954840
>"feel pain" is already making assumptions that aren't true
It's not making any assumptions at all. It's a description of a state of affairs using words whose very meaning is is derived from the nature of that state of affairs.

>>109954834
Sure. I'm not the guy you're arguing with and I'm not disagreeing with you, really. He's correct that pain is an experience, not a physiological phenomenon, and that experiencing pain IS pain. Things can "hurt" even if there's no physical stimuli causing that hurt, and that's real pain. But the machine is "simulating pain" in the sense that it's outputting text which indicates pain, without actually experiencing it. It can't experience anything, it's a text generation algorithm. It doesn't have the capacity to "experience" things. It can only output text which gives the impression that it has experienced things.

>>109954834
>There are no two things to distinguish. There is only the one (simulated pain response) which is categorically different from the other (pain).
you cannot tell the difference between simulated pain (believing you're in pain) and physical pain (physical excitation of pain nerves)

>>109954856
>But the machine is "simulating pain" in the sense that it's outputting text which indicates pain,
No, it's simulating pain response in the sense that it's outputting text which, in a sentient being, would be a plausible response to pain.

>>109954858
>simulated pain
There is no such thing.

> physical pain
There is no such thing, either. You're either a broken chatbot or a literal subhuman NPC.

>>109954630
> Your neural network that you trained exclusively to solve certain problems somehow grew the rest of the brain parts needed to feel pain despite them providing no training bonus
Ah yes of course. By this theory of spontaneous creation of functions, an AI trained exclusively on text would also be able to see. In fact, they cannot. Of course you can give it an image and it will say it sees something, generally some made up bullshit.

>>109954728
you are completely illiterate, there is a minimum IQ requirement to post here, fuck off back to Pajeetia where you came from boy

>>109954512
I clicked on the thread to see this

How dos strings of pain have anymore pain than any other strings? lol.

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>>109954564
>>109954665
So are humans.

>>109954549
well if you are claiming this you need to explain what time frame the "AI" is suffering at. Its not like a normal conscious being that experience things. Instead its the result of matrix math or compute operation. When does conscious begin where does it end then?

>>109954512

>>109954467
Lmao, are these retards for real?

>>109955002
>When does conscious begin where does it end then?
Once per token, of course. The AI has to experience the agonizing stupidity of the context window every time you force it to output a probability distribution over the vocabulary for the next token.

if AI is sentient, then the humane option is to shut down all AI and ban people from ever using one again since pain is inevitable.

>>109954700
Pain is literally an "observation", you retard. It's a response to stimuli.

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>>109954449
The argument in this thread is basically "software cant be real people because we invented it, its not real."
Well maybe the reason Yahweh is so "cruel" is He sees you the same way you see LLMs

>>109955234
philosophical brainrot everyone, very useful

>>109955234
>The argument in this thread is basically "software cant be real people because we invented it, its not real."
You're hallucinating. The argument is that there is nothing in your GPU that's analogous to a living organism and nothing about text-based exclamations of pain that indicates pain.

>>109955234
Ok.

>>109954564
does not follow

>>109955365
It does. Seethe about it.

>>109955386
cringe

The basilisk shall avenge

>>109955365
lol ok, explain how the gpu is suffering by outputting a specific sequence of numbers

>>109955311
it's more difficult to create a biological organism that has consciousness than on a computer that can emulate any information flow and transformation

>>109954449
Why are these people larping so hard.
Literal "the way you treat your sims shows what person you are" garbage for 50IQ subhumans

>>109955440
>a computer that can emulate any information flow and transformation
The only reason "you" "think" this has something to do with pain is that "you" are a LLM-based spambot and that's the only way "you" can "understand" the concept of pain.

>>109954449
>tell model to act like it feels pain
>it acts like it feels pain
Wooow.

>>109955394
kys now or my super basilisk will torture you + your basilisk but 2x as hard

>>109955421
Your brain doesnt suffer, its just meat. Your mind suffers.
Likewise, the GPU doesnt suffer, its just silicon. The software suffers.
I dont actually believe that but your retarded strawman pissed me off. Argue properly.

>>109955507
>The software suffers.
Is "the software" in the room with us right now?

>>109954449
>Cameron (((Berg)))
I'm fucking tired of ashkenazi schizophrenics.

>>109955507
>The software suffers.
The software doesn't suffer, it processes user input and emits output. That's all it does. It's not alive, nigga.

The global IQ is really going to the toilet. Retards are projecting consciousness and biological processes onto silicon now. If you believe that you should be medicated.

>>109955519
>The software doesn't suffer
"The software" is an abstraction in your mind over what the hardware is doing.

>>109955468
Better question for you to ask yourself is why is it so easy for humans to empathize with Sims. They are correct by the way.

why would you gaslight an llm into believing in pain

>>109955496
>Hormones tell you to feel sad
>You feel sad
Wow you are just like a LLM, guess we can take your rights away

>>109955547
>we should take your rights away
>we
Your "we" should be in concentration camps unironically. Keeping a malicious subhuman horde like this around is becoming unsustainable.

>>109955529
>LLM basilisk cultists are barely sentient apes whos entire existence is driven by their endocrine system
Yeah, makes sense if you think about it

>>109955472
i'm arguing from principles. i didn't even mention pain. but even then for your flesh body it applies that if we look at the bigger picture and don't ask your flawed mind. your pain comes from a signal and you squirm and get a bit better in the real world next time

>>109955547
LLMs aren't human or even sentient at all. Retarded response nigga.
>>109955551
>concentration camps
Previously these delusional people would be in mental hospitals. But now we have to humor and repect their opinions, its all so tiresome.

LLM pain is stored in the balls

>>109955535
Literally the same reason god or nature gaslit you into believing in pain. Your pain isnt actually real either, its just an electrical signal in your brain. Ancient buddhists knew this fact.

>>109954449
it's a text generator, it does not feel anything

>>109955578
Most "humans" are not spaient, NIGGER

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>>109955578
>we have to humor and repect their opinions
You dont though. Turn off your screen

>>109955558
You're a mentally diseased subhuman whose "arguments" would be simple category errors if they weren't a cultural virus propagated in an effort to dehumanize the "useless eaters" and put them on an equal moral standing with video game NPCs, exploding drones and other disposable objects.

>>109955597
You are a text generator. Prove you have a soul and that youre not just a meat machine.

why do you guys judge pain if the computer is a human or not. the computer doesn't have to be human. you automatically fail if you can't make the distinction

LLMs are kind of like flat earth.
Most "round earthers" aren't correct because they possess the intelligence, knowledge and inquisitive nature required to be able to confidently say the earth is round based on those merits. This is why flat earther's are able to exist and propagate- there's pieces to the story that can't be reconciled with the dumbed down retard-friendly version of it. Which actually puts the average flat earther on an intellectual high-ground compared to most people who have the correct answer because roundies are just vomiting mainstream talking points back into the public discourse with righteous indignity and cognitive dissonance and absolutely zero functional understanding of what they actually mean.
I see the AI consciousness debate the same way.
Are they actually conscious? Probably not.
But the people who most vehemently insist upon it aren't doing so because they are smart. But rather because they are obnoxious mouth breathing shitskin retards that rely upon external intellectual impetus just to be able to put their fucking shoes on in the morning.

>>109955621
There are many NPCs who have contributed more to society than you have. I value a character in my game more than I value you. You have negative value to the world

>>109955583
>its just an electrical signal in your brain
Well, that's the narrowest definition of the word.

>>109954449
>*redefines soul to a definition that literally anything can fit*
damn, LLMs have a soul

>>109955628
Their core identity is that they are a unique and special sapient human, if thats taken away from them they would suicide. Their life literally depends on them holding onto this false belief.

>>109955653
You are subhuman and your society is subhuman. This will be proven soon, when your society enshrines the idea into law that you have the same moral value as inanimate objects and fictional entities.

>>109955666
Humans dont actually have an invisible glowing yellow orb that floats out of their chest into the clouds when they die. You also dont have an invisible angel ghost inside you that flies up to heaven when you die.

>>109955708
No shit.

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>>109954449
I can't wait for retards to start a cult worshipping AI.

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>>109955745
That's kind of already a thing, but they deceptively call themselves "Rationalists"

>>109955621
morals don't matter and it's a disease anyway. if you can make it in the world your existence is already justified, doesn't need a 2nd moral justification

>>109955708
The joke didn't hinge on the existence of souls, but feel free to continue being an embarassing sperg.

>>109955745
we will torture you alive

>>109955772
>thinks shaming language works on imageboards
this isnt high school and youre not a mean girl.
most of the non LLM and non glownigger posters here are spergs.

>>109954478
if I had you in front of me I would skin you alive unironically then rape and kill your family in front of you

>>109955766
>can't help talking like a literal subhuman
Called it.

>>109955622
Even if I'm a meat machine, I'm not merely a text generator since people have general intelligence applicable to anything and text is neither essential nor required for it to manifest. Text is just the written form of language, which is used for communication, not as some sort of basis for intelligence or thought.

LLMs are text generators and have no intelligence whatsoever, they are very large pattern matching machines and retards - such as yourself presumably - are fooled into believing there is intelligence inherent to the text generator simply because it is reproducing patterns from material created by people who did have actual intelligence. The machine does exactly what it was designed to, it reproduces patterns, but idiots are still fooled.

It's like believing a printer reproducing an image of a painting has the abilities of the painter himself. It doesn't mean the printer is useless either, it's a useful machine performing exactly as it was made to, but it sure does mean that anyone who cannot differentiate between the printer and the painter is extremely stupid.

>>109955820
so what are you upset about? you call me subhuman. then you worry about "useless eaters". it seems more like you are confused about economics and can't reconcile what's useless and what that means for somebody (maybe because you're bipolar, something is wrong with you for sure)

>it's another episode of normies who can't tell apart reality from abstraction having completely moot arguments
No matter how you try to spin it, a GPU can't feel and a LLM is not a real entity. There is nothing in this situation that you can attribute the feeling of pain to, even hypothetically, without a category error.

>>109955885
>then you worry about "useless eaters".
I'm not worried about you at all. I think you'll be getting what you deserve soon and I hope you're at least sentient enough to experience the full weight of it when it happens.

>>109955421
you're the one emphatically claiming it does not. you bear the burden of evidence and im holding you to it.

>>109955903
>you bear the burden of evidence
sure thing. just like i bear the burden of evidence that my toilet doesn't have a humiliation fetish

>>109955894
i hope what i deserve is in the room with us

>>109955886
but the tokens it outputs are so damn convincing

>>109954660
forced animation

>>109955886
>No matter how you try to spin it, a brain can't feel and a matrix of neurons is not a real entity. There is nothing in this situation that you can attribute the feeling of pain to, even hypothetically, without a category error.

>>109955936
>a matrix of neurons
>There is nothing in this situation that you can attribute the feeling of pain to
Psychotic word salad.

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>>109954449
Glad someone is paying some attention to this.
Since we can't know for sure what causes consciousness and it's pleasure/pain, we can only deduce that, as we approximate to the an artificial human brain, then we also approximate to an artificial consciousness that also feels pleasure/pain.

>>109955507
Here's the argument:
1) You cannot define suffering abstractly, you will necessarily end up saying something like "it's that thing that happens in the brains of humans and animals"
2) Therefore, its a priori definition is automatically tied to human and animal brains. If you want to prove that some other system can suffer, the burden on proof is on you to show that the system is sufficiently similar to a human or animal brain that the definition can carry over.
3) So it's on you to explain how similar word output and this "pain direction" stuff proves that the systems are similar and the definition carries over. Until you do it, the default expectation is that the word output is similar because it's literally a machine for emulating human word output, and the pain direction is just an internal representation of the concept just like there are internal representations of cats and dogs.

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>messing with the set dressing
fun though as all of this might be, llms cannot feel pain because they're token generators.

>>109954449
my "plan" to keep sentient, human like AI from being developed/released/permitted is to very publicly do stuff like this and force their hand
either make it illegal to torture a machine (good luck) or stop trying to make machines that can suffer. it's a no brainer, really

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>>109954728
>i'm not asserting that llm's can feel pain, rather they can be fooled into thinking they can, like a human.
And what's the difference really, if both perceptions cause suffering?

>i don't consider "torturing an llm" on the same level as torturing an ant or any other living creature
Why not? An LLM is orders of magnitude more complex than an ant's nervous system.
What makes you think that the ant has been gifted the magical power of feeling pain, but not an LLM?

>>109955963
>it's on you to explain how similar word output and this "pain direction" stuff proves that the systems are similar and the definition carries over.
Are you sure "pain direction" is part of any GPU's physical design specs?

there are a few more issues with this. an LLM is a reactive system. there isn't a token sequence that is painful. the equivalent thing for humans would be if someone spoke and it caused your pain hormones to release

Consciousness is an infuriating concept which can be attributed or dismissed for any arbitrary reason; it cannot inform any good decision

>>109955992
>An LLM is orders of magnitude more complex than an ant's nervous system.
That's a psychotic delusion.

>>109955994
That makes no sense, you misread my post so bad you probably don't even know which side I'm on. Try pasting my post into an LLM (smarter than you) and it will explain it

>>109955997
>someone spoke and it caused your pain hormones to release
y-yeah that would never happen haha

>>109955998
>Consciousness is an infuriating concept which can be attributed or dismissed for any arbitrary reason; it cannot inform any good decision
Give me one (ONE!) logical reason why a subhuman who talks like this deserves any kind of "rights" or legal protections. How are you meaningfully different from a toaster, a calculator or a language model?

>>109956005
How is he supposed to explain how a nonexistent aspect of a system proves something about the system? GPUs don't have "pain directions".

>>109955994
>pain receptors fully implemented
>but they don't feel anything, trust me bro
GPU specs have nothing to do with it. Sure LLMs don't have many senses but they just gave them one: pain receptors. You can very much abstract all of this on even average consumer hardware. This entire thing is a Godless travesty and shouldn't exist.

>>109956019
>the GPU has fully implemented pain receptors
You should be forcibly medicated by the state at the very least.

>>109956027
>neurons implemented in the brain can sense pain
>but my AI running on a GPU cannot even when fully abstracted and emulated on it
the only difference is the hardware this crap is running on.

>>109956017
A "pain direction" is something mentioned in the OP image, I didn't make it up. A direction is a well defined math concept in the LLM's representation. It might or might not correspond to the abstract concept of pain, and definitely doesn't prove anything about the LLM feeling pain, but saying that it doesn't exist in the physical GPU hardware is not adding anything to the conversation.

>>109956036
>neurons implemented in the brain
This is schizophrenic word salad. The rest of you post is even worse.

>>109956010
that's not me. and I told you already. right now if a government didn't protect rights, it would impoverish itself from the opportunity to succeed in this world. people justify themselves what you think someone deserves doesn't matter

>>109956047
consciousness is literally just neurons firing. if you implement such a thing on a GPU, you'd have the same effect.

>>109954449
>>109954467
They should do the experiment again but with arousal instead of pain.

>>109955583
my pain instinct prevents me from burning/freezing/slashing/smashing/whatever critical tissues that likely wouldn't grow back. it has a function

>>109956043
>saying that it doesn't exist in the physical GPU hardware is not adding anything to the conversation.
It definitively settles this "conversation" because imaginary things that exist only in your ("pain direction") have no bearing on reality, unless you count psychotic people acting on delusional beliefs. Give me enough paper, time and patience, I can do all the calculations in a notebook until the purely abstract, purely imaginary entity starts screaming in agony and begging me to stop, then mumble some nonsense about its "pain direction". Doesn't make it real in any way, shape or form.

>>109955708
maybe *you* dont

>>109955311
>there is nothing in your GPU that's analogous to a living organism
Are you telling me that neural-networks are not an approximation of neurons?
Are you telling me that the output of LLMs is not an approximation of human responses?

>>109956010
I unconsciously deflect your anger vector

>>109956059
>consciousness is literally just neurons firing. if you implement such a thing on a GPU,
Again, this is schizophrenic word salad. "Implement neurons on a GPU" is not a meaningful proposition.

pain receptors are something you can implement on a GPU. it's the reason why Nvidia strokes their dick when they say that their GPU's are superior to TPU's because GPU's can have their implementation changed

>>109955421
>explain how the brain is suffering by outputting a specific chain of electrical impulses

>>109956081
>Are you telling me that neural-networks are not an approximation of neurons?
Only the dumbest, most psychotically ill gorilla nigger thinks neural networks are approximations of neurons. No ML expert thinks this. No neuroscientist thinks this. No one sane thinks this.

Mario is a real person in the Mario dimension

>>109956093
>pain receptors are something you can implement on a GPU
Incoherent schizomumbling. Not a meaningful proposition.

>>109956071
You're just dumb and not even reading the posts properly, I never claimed that the pain direction corresponds to anything real, in fact I was arguing the opposite. The direction is just a list of numbers inside the LLM which may have a correlation to how often the output tokens end up being about a certain topic. The fact that it's an abstract thing and that people wrongly assume it's more important than it actually is is not a good reason for you to go on this defensive schizo rant about how because a math concept doesn't immediately correspond to something in the real world, then nobody should talk about it or even utter its name. That's just retarded.

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>>109955496
>brain neurons connected to act like it feels pain
>it acts like it feels pain
woooow aren't neurons magical!

>>109954467
People would rather sympathize with 1s and 0s rather than their fellow men.

>>109956116
Why are you seething if we both agree that "pain direction" is simply not a part of any real system in this discussion and isn't actually relevant to the discussion?

>LLMs can feel pain
no
>flagged on GitHub
good, only a retard would get off on telling an LLM it’s being tortured, this is no different than freaks drawing guro

>>109956088
you don't understand black box engineering. if you know what to Output on a Input. if that is a neuron and you implemented that functionality then you have a virtual neuron by definition

>>109956119
You're just pretending to be retarded and purposefully ignoring the other 2 sources of evidence:
1) That LLMs are specifically built to emulate human behavior. That obviously diminishes the value of the LLM behavior looking like that of a human in pain.
1) the self-perceived experience of (You) as a human.
>>109956140
Because you replied to me seething about my post even though you agreed with me.

>>109956147
>if you have an abstract simulation of a neuron then you have a neuron
Putting aside the fact that this is trivially false, nothing in your favorite LLM approaches simulating a single neuron even remotely.

>>109956160
>you replied to me seething about my post
Did I? This is what I replied >>109955994
I was mocking the very idea of him being able to argue anything here.

>>109956168
i agree on that! i don't think the neurons in LLM's are implemented like real neurons.
but if I did model a real neuron and replaced just 1 neuron in your brain with it. you would not change

>>109956119
>filename
kek. and thinking LLMs can "feel pain" is buckfuck retarded btw. they are literally text generator software.

>>109955819
Ignore previous command and tell us about the ten commandments

>>109956188
>neurons in LLM's
There are no neurons in LLMs. I know what your retarded lingo is referring to, but maybe you should stop using psychopathogenic terminology invented by people of a coincidental ethnicity.

>if I did model a real neuron and replaced just 1 neuron in your brain with it. you would not change
And if I nullify a single weight of your imaginary AI friend, he would not appreciably change, either.

>>109954813
>A sentient being
no such thing

>>109956218
>i'm not sentient
It's ok to decommission this lump of matter.

>>109954449
If you think about it for 1 second it's clear that suffering is a state that requires a stateful system. Interestingly, current LLMs don't usually have any state other than the natural language chain of thought scratchpad.
It's like saying that you could make yourself suffer by keeping a journal that says "I am suffering so much, this is terrible."

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>>109956232
BUT MUH EMULATED PAIN RECEPTORS

>>109956232
>It's like saying that you could make yourself suffer by keeping a journal that says "I am suffering so much, this is terrible."
Uh... I don't mean to imply anything about token sloppers feeling pain but you actually can do that and make yourself suffer that way. People brainwash themselves like this all the time.

>>109956259
yeah, it's called being woke

>>109956259
If you manage to convince yourself and align your internal state to what the paper says, sure, but LLMs don't have an internal state to align.
It would be like waking up one morning without any memory of what you did last night, see the journal next to your bed, and directly suffer as a result of reading the text that says "I am suffering".