>What is Finnish Folk Religion?Finnish Folk Religion consists of the religious beliefs of Finnish "commoners" or lay people, which have not been tied to a particular religious dogma like Christianity. These beliefs include gods, spirits, magic, curses, traditions, and pagan synchretism with Lutheranism / Orthodox Churches. >What was pre-Christian Finnish religion like?This is incredibly hard to say, as much of the research has been based on comparative theology / religious studies, archeology, and linguistics. What we do know is that it was a form of shamanism, where haltia and spirits of the dead were venerated. Many smaller haltia might have been bigger gods as well.>GodsFinnish folk religion has one definite god, which is the Christian god / Jesus. Some of the pre-Christian gods could still be seen as haltias or as gods next to Jehova and Jesus. These gods include Ukko (the Sky, sometimes conflated with Christian god), Ahti (Waters) and Tapio (Forests). These three we know to be gods, because their areas of "expertise" are cosmic in range, when most other haltia merely rule over a single species, individual, place, etc.>HaltiaHaltia are spirits, who are much akin to kami in Shinto. Some haltia rule over a building (often called tonttu) such as a church (synchretism), while others rule over nature. They can be good and evil, depending on how people treat or honour them. Interestingly, many Christian saints sometimes evolved into haltia, who were invoked in spells.>SynchretismBy the time these beliefs were written down, Christianity was the dominant religion, and actively affected how people viewed the world. As a result, many of the stories we have show interesting mixture of both ancient pagan and Christian characters, as I mentioned before. For example, one story has Jesus and Sampsa Pellervoinen, the seeder of world, encountering Iku-Turso the monster on a boat trip. One story from Karelia has Väinämöinen as the father of Jesus.
>>18494938>Finnish Folk Religion consists of the religious beliefs of Finnish "commoners" or lay people,Not reading your AI post.
>Is there any specific dogma or common narrative to these?Aside from the belief in haltia and magic, no. All beliefs varied by time, place, and the individual, and were mostly oral tradition. The only people writing them down were either secular judges or clergymen seeking to end or collect "pagan beliefs". How seriously lay people viewed them depended. Some who told about them might not believe in them, while others might take them very seriously (just like these days when it comes to the supernatural or religion). Most of these beliefs disappeared following urbanization.>Who is Väinämöinen?A god and a hero, his status depends on time and location. He's tales usually cast him as a powerful wizard, though the way he's invoked in spells has us believe he's probably been thought of either as a god or a haltia as well. Mikael Agricola mentioned him as a "false god", while a clergyman referred to him as the "son of the giant Kaleva".>>18494948I'm autistic, please understand.
>magicEvery thing was believed to possess "väki", which could be described as groups of haltia or spirits. Invoking the "väki" of different concepts could be used to either heal or harm. The different väki include, for example, fire, water, forest, church, women, bears, and iron. For example, Women were known to cast protective spells on children and livestock by exposing them to their pussy, so part of their väki would move on to protect others.
>>18494952What did you mean by:>Finnish folk religion has one definite god, which is the Christian god / Jesus. Obviously pure Finnic paganism didn't have any notion of Abrahamic faiths.
>>18494957Of course not, and I should have been more clear about that. In that section, I was talking about the post-Christian folk beliefs. I should have made it more clear. Before Christianity and even after it, many Finns worshipped non-Christian gods. However, following Christianization, most Finns would have worshipped Jehova, which is why I talked about synchretic beliefs. All of what we know about Finnish folk beliefs come from the Christian era, and in that context, Abrahamic God and Jesus is the most important.
>>18494957Yeah after reading that part I assume OP is a schizo JW or something similar
>>18494952NTA i m also autistic, but not a LARPagan
>>18494957Fake term
>>18494975Apologies, this was not my intention. I'm an atheist/agnostic, not a Christian nor a pagan, and my intention isn't to make out that one religion is better than another. My intention was to merely tell broadly about the evolution of folk religion from "pure paganism" into a synchretic belief system mixing pagan and Christian beliefs come 18th-20th Century.>>18494990I'm not a larpagan either.
>>18494956I forgot to mention this here:Naming was very important in spells. In order to summon a spell, it was important to know the "births", "fathers" and "mothers" or "creation stories" of things. For example, mentioning a certain god (Jesus/Väinämöinen etc.) was naming a creator for the (summoned or invoked) thing's family tree.
>>18495016Do you know about other folk religions or just Finns?
>>18495029Mostly just Binnish, though I'm interested in folklore in general.
>>18494975>jewHow exactly is he a jew? Schizophrenic
>>18495016Okay, sorry. But can i give you some adice?? If you really want to learn more about paganism, i can recommend some good sources. Do not waste your time asking the larpagans here and i think you just ruined your entire thread by mentioning "Christianity"
>hiisi before ChristianityThe term hiisi used to mean a holy or sacred grove or cemetery, where families or communities would gather to venerate haltia and/or ancestors. It's likely that many haltia were originally thought as spirits of ancestors and/or animals.>hiisi after ChristianityAfter Christianization, hiisi were turned from holy places to demons and monsters. Over the course of history, hiisi has meant a holy grove, a giant, a troll, a demon (both the pagan or Christian kind), the Devil himself, Hell, or just simply afterlife for the dead. Most often they've been seen as troll and giant-like creatures. Many times they have their own country for them, Hiitola, which has sometimes been mentioned as a "bad side of afterlife" or a country far up north. Many stories tell about hiisi as Aetiological creatures, who have been used to explain interesting features found in nature, such as ancient ruins and glacial features. These stories often mention a competition between humans and the hiisi to build a church to decide, who is allowed to live in an area. Hiisi, being stronger, start building their church very fast. However, humans are craftier, and they set up two pylons with a church bell on it. After hearing the ringing bell, the hiisi ragequit, believing they've lost, and in their anger throw stones at the humans, before leaving the area. Other stories mention hiisi as prideful creatures. One story mentions a hiisi going for a swim, and a bunch of people began laughing at his penis. Hiisi, being rather upset, threw a boulder at the men, just missing by an inch. This way, hiisi have been used to explain natural formations. To this day, erratic boulders are known as "hiidenkivi" in Finnish, meaning "Hiisi's stone", while glacial potholes are "hiidenkirnu", hiisi's churn.
>>18495110If one would like to comparative looks, there are some fun similarities between Japanese Oni and the Hiisi. Both are prideful demon-like creatures with impressive strength, who love to desecrate holy places and shrines.Moreover, following the translation of Lord of the Rings into Finnish, goblins are nowadays often translated as "hiisi". In other words, Hiisi are Finnish goburin. Many who play the hit-game "Noita" might remember hiisi as common enemies, and this depiction follows the goblin tradition.
>>18495071Thank you, if you have some source ideas, I'll take them with pleasure. My original intention with this thread was more to share up information on the area I'm interested in, but I am grateful if someone can share any good books or studies. What paganism did you have in mind?
How does it feel knowing only people who care about folk religion anymore are either this or that?
>>18496397To be honest, neither of these really stands to truth here. Maybe among neo-pagans, but not so much among people "just into folklore and tradition". In the first place, Finnish Folk Religion isn't really a religion, but a collection of traditional beliefs and practices. Recently I've been noticing a growing range of "normies" being interested in the topic, which I think is a result of more accessible work by academics and a general interest in history and tradition. However, I can only speak from a Binnish perspective.
>SoulThe concept of soul was tripartite. People were believed to have three souls, that formed a person. Itse, the self; Henki or Löyly, the "life" or "spirit"; haltija-soul, the haltija that protected a person. The idea of this slowly died off after the introduction of Christianity, though ideas about it still lingered. Henki was the soul that gave the life to a body. It was often thought to literally leave the body after death, often in the form of a bird. This was sometimes seen in the post-Christian idea that people had seen black ravens exit the mouths of condemned criminals on their way to Hell, or white doves flying to Heaven.Itse was a soul that couldn't be killed, and formed the personality (self) of a human. People who were either murdered or committed suicide were thought to haunt until they'd reach the age they would've died "naturally". Post-Reformation, the view about this soul seems to have synchretized with the Lutheran tradition of soul sleep in some places, as the dead were sometimes literally seen to be sleeping. Haltija-soul was the protective spirit of a person. Pre-Christian Finns seem to have thought that this was a spirit to be gained after birth, usually through giving a name (ancestral veneration). Post-Christian Finns seem to have mostly believed in its existence among the Forest Finnish areas of Sweden and Finnish areas of Southern Lappland. Arguably, one could also see the guardian angel tradition as a continuance.
>>18496645A good example of how this view still affects Finnish culture is through the expression "hengenlähtö", a colloquial for death. Literally translated it means "spirit/henki leaving the body".
>TuonelaThe afterlife, which continued existing deep into Christian era (though it did matter on time and space, many did still subscribe to the lay Lutheran perspectives). Partially this was due to Finnish translations of the Bible using Tuonela for sheol/hades. Tuonela was seen as the land of the dead, where people continued their lives akin to how they lived. Tuonela was separated from the land of the living by a river, which is sometimes described as a calm river and other times as a rapid full of swords and knives. Tuonen Tytti, the daughter of Tuoni, would row the deceased over the river. Tuoni was most likely the god of Tuonela, though he (or she) has remained an elusive figure. It's possible the name has been used to describe Louhi/Lovetar/Syöjätär, who is a figure most often associated with Tuonela in folk beliefs, and was believed to have created all the major diseases. Louhi is also known as the main antagonist of Kalevala. Another interesting figure was the spirit/haltija/goddess Kiputyttö, "Pain Girl", who either took in pains of the people, created them, or both.
>the deadBefore Christianization, the dead and ancestral spirits were known to be venerated. In a way, this could be seen in re-using the names of venerated ancestors. This veneration continued in the Catholic era, and fit well into the Orthodox beliefs of East Karelians. However, following reformation, Lutheranism vehemently opposed this veneration. Often, spirits of the dead were either called straight-up demons or some other entities that aren't the dead. As a result, an interesting mix happened, where the dead were still identified as the spirits of the deceased or as haltija, yet had a certain demonic or evil form and feel to them. (To be clear, most accounts clearly see them as different to Christian concept of demons or "piru". People mostly saw them as either haltija, kalma, or spirits of the dead. The christian devil and his minions are identified as different beings, though some, especially priests, might have seen every creature that's not an angel as demons.) There were many different creatures related to the dead, such as kirkonväki, "church people", often seen as the dead, who literally woke up to either drive disrespectful people out of cemeteries, to go welcome the newly deceased, or to worship God in Christmas. Other creatures related to the dead were creatures like "keijukaiset" and "menninkäiset", who were known to bully the living and livestock. There are many others, but naming them all would take too much space, and many share features with each other.More important was as a mysterious power known as "Kalma", which was sometimes seen to be part of "väki" and a haltija with a mind of its own. It was often also seen as being among the "disease demons" that Louhi created (disease demon isn't the term people used, but a descriptive term folklorists used). Kalma was both a force and a disease you could get from the dead, which is why it was both feared and soak after. It could be used to curse and infect people, but it could also be cast away.
>>18497051>after speaking with lappland witches we have discovered that the kalmar union is satanic, as can be inferred form their name in their northern tonguet:hanseatic league
>tietäjäLiterally translated, "knower" or "person who knows". Tietäjä can be described as something akin to bards, druids, wizards, witches, and shamans, though "shaman" would only apply for tietäjä before Christianization. Post-Christianized tietäjä were not known to use trance, or necessarily even travel to the lands of the dead, Tuonela. They had magical power, or rather, they had knowledge that could wield magical power, "väki". East Karelians often describe Väinämöinen as the "eternal tietäjä".Tietäjä were known to possess a strong mind that was strong enough to face haltija and other spirits. Their most important asset was knowledge. Magical power came from knowing the "Synty", birth myth, of every being. As I explained earlier, the way magic used to work, was by knowing the way something was made. Knowing their fathers and mothers, and the parts used to build it, were all important in "exposing" it. By exposing its origin, one could hope to command its haltija and väki. Tietäjä were known to have familiars, sometimes actual live animals, such as snakes, ravens, and toads.Tietäjä are often translated as "bards", which is fitting, as the spells were often in the form of poems sung out loud. However, singing was not the only thing they did. Many also used traditional "witch doctor" methods, such as animal parts, liquids, and so on. Sometimes even pieces of human bones, stolen from graveyards, were used. Tietäjä were known to sometimes even wake up the dead to speak with them.Most tietäjä were men, though female tietäjä also existed. Interestingly, this is the reason why Finland is an exception when it comes to witch trials. Most people either trialed or convicted of witchcraft were men. I do not think Kantele was widely used outside Karelia, or I have not found information if it was also common in modern Finland.
>>18498702Although Christianity took a hard stance on witchcraft, most tietäjä were able to practice their magic in peace. Authorities usually only got interested, when a clear case of death was actually involved. Some tietäjä were even respected in their parishes. For example, Juho Luomajoki (1843-1914) (pictured) was a respected tietäjä in Hätämaa. Despite his "un-Biblical" activities, Luomajoki was a known church goer, received the eucharist often, and had no problem with pastors. His profession was even marked as "Witch doctor" in the church books.
NO NYT ON HYVÄ LANKA
>>18498787Vähän laatua näiden skitsofreenien keskelle.
>Tonttu, or maanhaltijaHaltija most often found in Western Finland, which had a lot of influence from Sweden. Thus, there are many elements from the Swedish Tomte here. Tonttu were haltijas guarding and protecting buildings. Not every building had its own tonttu, but there were tonttu for almost every building in old Finnish farms. There were tonttu for the main buildings or homes (kotitonttu), a tonttu for sauna (saunatonttu), tonttu protecting mills or barns, and so forth. Apparently, there was even a tonttu for a pile of shit, called shit tonttu (paskatonttu).Tonttu were not really worshiped or venerated, but they were honoured. The offerings given to them were more a pay for a "job well done", rather than something you'd sacrifice to a god. While tonttu may have evolved from ancestral worship, they weren't ancestors. Tonttu did often take the forms of deceased humans, though this seems to have been more something the spirits did in honour of the deceased. Haltija rather often took these forms of the deceased, and this was a rather universal belief. Similarly, the first one to light a fire in the fireplace of a home or a sauna was usually the person, whose form the tonttu would take after their passing.Tonttu were often believed to look like miniature humans, most often they were described as old men, although young and female tonttu existed as well. One story told about a beautiful sauna tonttu, who looked like a young woman. However, tonttu needed to be respected. A house without morals, disrespected by bad behaviour, could result in the tonttu leaving. Sometimes, tonttu might even himself show up and throw people out. One terrifying case tells of a sauna tonttu, who skinned a disrespectful woman alive, only leaving her skin to dry. Another story even tells of a house tonttu, who took revenge by LITERALLY KEKING THE FARMER BY FUCKING HIS WIFE. If the right apology was made, the tonttu might return and forgive the people.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130402223634/https://www15.uta.fi//yky/arkisto/historia/noitanetti/ammatti.html
>OP talking to himself the thread
>>18494938very interesting, anon. I've been doing my own research in a similar vein regarding folk spirituality in my own country (bulgaria) and it is a fascinating topic. to my knowledge, japanese shinto wasn't a religion per-se but was scraped together during the nineteenth century from syncretic folk practices which coexisted with buddhism. I wouldn't be surprised if a good few eastern european cultures have retained enough non-christian material to hypothetically create something similar.>Haltia>Haltia are spirits, who are much akin to kami in Shinto. Some haltia rule over a building (often called tonttu) such as a church (synchretism), while others rule over nature. They can be good and evil, depending on how people treat or honour them. Interestingly, many Christian saints sometimes evolved into haltia, who were invoked in spells.the term for this concept is a "tutelary spirit".>>18496397if you're truly interested in something, you aren't concerned about what sort of people share your hobby. I love to read about history/ethnography for my satisfaction alone, not because I intend to use it as some cheap outlet to socialize.
I believe that each peoples innate religion lies within them, waiting to come out even if suppressed by abrahamic lies. In Finland this process is manifesting itself via creation of new versions of their native god archetypes such as Apu, Spurdo, and Gondola.
>>18499451Thanks a lot, anon, I appreciate it. I've never heard about Bulgarian folk beliefs before, so if you have some sources, I'd be happy to read them. The comparison with Shinto and Buddhism is indeed apt, as there was a lot of syncretization or creolization between local folk practices and Christianity, although not quite on the scale of Japan, where Shinto wasn't banned or forbidden. As far as I know, this has practically happened everywhere in Europe, although it was most profound in the East and the North by living the longest. Of course, though I used the phrase "folk religion", it can just as aptly be described as "folk spirituality" or "folk tradition", because Lutheranism and Orthodox Christianity had heavily permeated Finnish spiritual life (most Finns still considered themselves Christian), even though "non-Christian" beliefs and practices continued living alongside the official religion all the way up to urbanization of the 20th Century. A frequent church goer could have believed a church haltija was protecting the church, and a magic practitioner could invoke Biblical figures, even if the official church didn't approve. In contrast to Finland, Estonia and Latvia had a much more active folk religion with pagan traditions, which was the result of many things, such as the commoners seeing the church as a religion of their "conquerors", the German feudal lords. To this day, there are the Seto nation in Estonia, whom are known to worship the god "Peko" (funnily enough, Peko is related to the Finnish haltija of beer and barley, Pellonpekko). If this topic interests you, I can recommend this video by ReligionForBreakfast, and the works of Professor Francis Young.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drA6PifnsFU>tutelary spiritThank you for expanding my vocabulary, I actually had no idea about this term before! This describes haltija rather well, especially how many haltija were tied to specific landmarks like certain trees.
>KalevalaKalevala by Elias Lönnrot is a very important book, and without a doubt, one of the most important and influential books of modern Finnish culture. Many will pick it up and come away thinking they've grasped Finnish mythology. However, although the book is very important in understanding Finnish culture and presents many real myths, there are some major problems when it comes to studying the traditional folk beliefs. (Moreover, for any Finns lurking, no, I'm not a varttikarjalainen aktivisti, Lönnrot wasn't a fucking colonialist :D)The most glaring problem is that Kalevala is partially invented, despite utilizing many collected mythical stories. For one, it has a narrative. Many of the original stories were not connected to each other. For example, the famous story about Aino, the sister of Joukahainen, is a combination of at least three different stories with no relation to one another. The original myths tell about three different people known as "Aino", which sometimes might have just been an archaic way of saying "only" ("only daughter" or "only sister"). The reason for this is that Lönnrot wanted to construe a glorious mythical history for Finland, which would elevate the nation to stand among the great nations of Europe, as was the trend at the time. By creating an epic narrative akin to Aeneid, Odysseus or Matter of Britain. This wasn't anything new, and since the 18th Century many scholars had been studying Finnish folklore in an effort to create a mythical history for the nation with its own pantheon akin to Greeks and Romans.
>>18500102The second problem is that many of the poems collected for the book were from non-Finnish Karelian areas. This has nowadays created a battlefield, as many liberal activists have accused Finns of appropriating the myths for themselves. This is half-true. Many stories were collected from non-Finnish or Ingrian Finn areas, but plenty were also collected from the historical Finnish areas. For example, many important stories about Väinämöinen were collected from Ostrobothnia. However, it does provide a major issue of the book: Contemporary Finnish and Karelian poems and traditions were often sidelined completely. Instead of seeing them as a reflection of 18th and 19th century local cultures, these stories were interpreted as signs of an ancient pantheon and mythology.The third problem presents a compilation of the two problems mentioned before:Kalevala is not a book that accurately portraits what ancient Finns believed in, or necessarily even what contemporary Finns and Karelians believed in. It's been pieced together from multiple different myths with no relation to each other, presented as a straight narrative akin to Ebba. Many things, such as the Swan of Tuonela, were invented, or heavily altered, such as the story of Iku-Turso. Modern influences, such as mentions of Christianity and coffee were mostly swept away and heavily sexual stories were outright censored. Moreover, Lönnrot made some interesting decisions while writing the story. For one, the cosmology of Kalevala is almost Christian in nature, and Ukko is sometimes treated as a proto-monotheistic god. Another thing is that the ending of the book is much "softer" towards Väinämöinen, then the original poem, where he's called a motherfucker among many things.
>>18500105So, do I think you should read Kalevala? Yes, absolutely. It's a great book, and a national epic. It still contains many myths, and as a work, it's helped define the nation. However, you shouldn't read it like you'd read the Bible. It's not a set collection of outlined beliefs, but a narrative creation of 19th Century. If you read Kalevala, use it as a jumping point to academic studies researching Finnish folklore.
>>18500109Kantelerar by Lönnrot is also a great collection of unedited poetry, including the poems he used in Kalevala. Unfortunately, no translations of it exist much to my knowledge. Moreover, just to be clear, although Kalevala has its problems, I don't hate the book, nor do I hate Lönnrot, nor do I side with the "Karelian" activists claiming that all of Kalevala is copied from Karelia (it's not). Lönnrot was a great man, who absolutely deserves all the praise, but Kalevala should be seen as a product of its time.
