Would Japan be able to achieve a Pyrrhic victory if the atomic bombs never existed?"
>>18495877No
>>18495877No. Even if they inflicted enough casualties to make the US give up, the Soviets would already have joined the invasion of Japan by that point.
>>18495877no. just encircle them with dreadnoughts and keep bombarding.
>>18495877Nohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo>The strikes conducted by the USAAF on the night of 9–10 March 1945, codenamed Operation Meetinghouse, constitute the single most destructive aerial bombing raid in human history. Sixteen square miles (41 km2; 10,000 acres) of central Tokyo was destroyed, leaving an estimated 100,000 civilians dead and over one million homeless.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#13–14_August>In the largest and longest bombing raid of the Pacific War, more than 400 B-29s attacked Japan during daylight on 14 August, and more than 300 that night. A total of 1,014 aircraft were used with no losses. B-29s from the 315 Bombardment Wing flew 6,100 km (3,800 mi) to destroy the Nippon Oil Company refinery at Tsuchizaki on the northern tip of Honshū. This was the last operational refinery in the Japanese Home Islands, and it produced 67% of their oil.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Starvation>Beginning on 27 March 1,000 parachute-retarded influence mines with magnetic and acoustic detonators were initially dropped, followed by many more, including models with water pressure displacement detonators. This mining proved the most efficient means of destroying Japanese shipping during World War II. In terms of damage per unit of cost, it surpassed strategic bombing and the United States submarine campaign.>For instance, shipping through Kobe declined by 85%, from 320,000 tons in March to only 44,000 tons in July. Operation Starvation sank more ship tonnage in the last six months of the war than the efforts of all other sources combined.Most civilian rice in Japan was transported on rice barges along Japan's coasts and the Inland Sea. As a result of Operation Starvation this system deteriorated and then collapsed. The Japanese people were already under siege conditions in August 1945. Operation Olympic was scheduled to begin on November 1. Operation Coronet was scheduled to begin on March 1, 1946.
Nope. No oil, no hope of making any real dent in total allied superiority, and shitty scarce farmland with shitloads of allied planes spraying napalm along with Op. Starvation meant that Japan was on the brink of a major famine by the time they surrendered.If they had decided to keep resisting on Kyushu they'd be looking at 5-10 million deaths by starvation, not counting picrel bringing any industrial output from any major urban centre within 30 miles of the coast to a grinding halt for a full year while Allied troops geared up.and the atom bombs didn't really cause disproportionate damage compared to mass bombing raids anyway. Their significance lies in symbolism more so than actual damage; Fat Man and Little Boy didn't do anything that 1,000 B29s or Lancasters couldn't.In terms of grinding down Allied morale, yeah the American people probably wouldn't be too happy to see 20 of their rifle divisions get wiped out taking Mountain Range #4973245 on the home islands, but in terms of the scale of losses it wouldn't be anything that the Western Allies hadn't gone through in Northwest Europe and Italy already. When it came to mustering fighting strength in large conventional battles, the Japanese were pathetic compared to the Wehrmacht.And even if you were an average Joe in the US who didn't like how Downfall was going and how long it was taking, what were you gonna do? suggest that America NOT keep fighting those hated little yellow barbarians? By the time Okinawa ended there was significant public discontent in the US but it was expressed more so along the lines of "just shell the next fortified Japanese island with mustard gas instead of sending the Marine divisions to go clear it" rather than Vietnam counter-culture style "sign a treaty now!"It's still a shame that we never saw Downfall go ahead though because Joseph "Lolcow Supreme" Stillwell of all fucking people somehow got slated to command US Tenth Army, which would have been hilarious.
>>18495975>It's still a shame that we never saw Downfall go ahead though because Joseph (Lolcow Supreme) Stillwell of all fucking people somehow got slated to command US Tenth Army, which would have been hilarious.t. Peanut
>>18495877There is no scenario where Japan wins and they knew it very well. They were committed to defense of the mainland as an apocalyptic fulfillment rather than a military objective.
>>18495877no. soviets would have created at least a north korea/south korea situation.
No. The Americans would have landed in Shikoku and the Soviets in Hokkaido. The islands would have been isolated with superior air and sea control and the defenders would quickly lose ammunition and suicide charge just like on Iwo Jima and Okinawa.After that it would just be a slow and bloody grind from the opposite end of Honshu towards the center. Just lots of dead people on both sides, probably mostly Soviet and Japanese and less American.
>>18495877no, and Downfall is not happening eitherJapan surrenders when Manchuria falls
>>18495877I think there would be one or two turbo normandy style huge battles (which the Japanese would lose) and then they'd surrender in early 1946. Japan was already on the edge of famine by that point. They'd give up after the USMC started to close in on Tokyo.
>>18497156In the case of land invasion, Japan would have higher man power, greater will, and larger incentive to fight. They would lose the war eventually due to material, but it would be very bloody to the point of lowering the conditions of surrender. Japan would've probably preferred a ground invasion at that point in the war. In a no nuke world, the best route to American victory after the carrier fleet and oil was exhhausted would be simple suffocation.
>>18497156>They'd give up after the USMC started to close in on Tokyothe Army and Navy did most of the work in the Pacific in the land (and air).
>>18495934and? That is literally what a pyrrhic victory is.>DA HECKIN REAL PROLETARAIT WOULD WINno they wouldnt, Russia ALWAYS loses to asia.1. Japan would inflict huge losses on both Russia and the US2. Russia wouldnt be able to defeat Japan, they cant even defeat Ukraine.
>>18495963>>18495977>>18495991I believe OP means could they make invading so costly as to not be worth it.That answer is yes.>b-b-butVietnam literally did this to the United States.Iran is doing it as we speak.Liberal regimes are simply too weak to wage war effectively.They either overwhelm or they crumble politically.
>>18497486anon, i'm not sure exactly who you think was on the winning side of the Pacific War, but it wasn't the ultranationalist imperial military junta.
>>18495934After the Soviets invaded Manchuria they didn't really have a plan to actually go overseas and invade the mainland.
>>18497574Nevermind I'm retarded
>>18497574wdym? Stalin wanted a northern chunk of the Japanese home islands badly and 100% would have gone for it if he considered it feasible. Granted i will say that i don't know whether or not the Soviet Navy actually would have been up to the task of undergoing a major amphibious operation of the sort that'd be needed to land and supply enough forces to take Hokkaido, so the plan might have just been shelved anyway. In terms of logistical capacity and firepower, the Russians' Pacific Fleet was pathetic compared to what the British and Americans were bringing to bear down south. They might have been able to count on US lend lease sending them lots of new shiny Liberty Ships or even destroyers to use, since Macarthur was enthusiastically in favour of getting the Russians in on the invasion of Japan (he denied this later) but that's also up for debate.
>>18497514You have a third grade reading level.
>>18497486>vietnam literally did this to the united states>iran is doing it as we speakThe United States never invaded North Vietnam, and is yet to invade Iran.
>>18495977>the atom bombs didn't really cause disproportionate damage compared to mass bombing raids anyway. Their significance lies in symbolism more so than actual damage; Fat Man and Little Boy didn't do anything that 1,000 B29s or Lancasters couldn't.
>>18497702Operation Meetinghouse was a deadlier raid than each of the atomic bombs.
>>18497192All pointless when they couldn't even produce guns. They were handing out black powder muskets and bamboo spears. >>18497486The American population’s will to fight WW2 (especially against the Japs)) were 500x that of their will to fight in South Vietnam or Iran. Old men have died never touching a Japanese product they hated them so much. Japan was to America what Germany was to the Soviets. Full on race war.
>>18496194>the Soviets in Hokkaido.The Soviets were going anywhere in Japan, it was wholly in the American sphere of operations and the Soviets literally had no shipping to get there anyways.
>>18497705One (1) B-29 with one (1) nuke = 1000 B-29s with conventional bombs
>>18497712>1000 B-29s with conventional bombsMeetinghouse only involved around 300 bombers. Scary to think about
