Please just read my thread before spamming "saar" in the replies.I am being fucking GASLIT. I went to fucking school. I studied Geography. EVERY reputable academic source CATEGORIZES Indian people as DESCENDANTS of Indo Aryan people.>But Indians aren't blonde haired blue eyed EuropeansYES I FUCKING KNOW Indians aren't blonde haired and blue eyes. I'm JUST SAYING that Indians are BY CATEGORY "Aryans". That dosen't change the fact that they still eat da poo poo and do the scam calls. But aren't Indians literally the children of Indo Aryans? Like HISTORICALLY and ACADEMICALLY wise.
sorry prakesh you will never be aryan.
Only the upper three varnas are traditionally considered Aryan, Shudras are excluded.
>>18498104would you say most modern Indians are descendants of the Shudras? And that the current caste system is a mere mockery of it's former proper form?
>indians are aryans saar thread #37458723462846247why do I even visit this board
>>18498086What is your point?Everyone knows they speak Indo-Aryan.Everyone knows R1a is widespread there.Everyone (on this board) knows they have some amount of steppe admixture which varies according to caste.>But aren't Indians literally the children of Indo Aryans?In genetic terms, they owe much of their patrilineal descent to Proto-Indo-Iranians. Some autosomal admixture comes from them as well. They are the descendants of Indo-Iranian steppe herders and natives of the Indian subcontinent. The majority of their ancestry is from the natives.
>>18498116ok good so I didn't study Geography in an alternate universe. Literally every fucking pol poster will SWEAR on their nans grave that Indians arent Aryan
>>18498124>taking pol seriouslylol. lmao even.
Yes Indians come from Indo Iranians. Modern Indians are Indo Iranians mixed with Dravidian Aboriginal natives which is why modern day India is... well... India.So yes, by technicality, Indians are Aryan But When an Indian says they're "Aryan" online they're trying to convince you that they're the same people their ancestors were.It's like saying "I AM MY GRANDFATHER WE ARE THE SAME GUY!!!!!"
>>18498116you will never be aryan please do the needful and leave this board.
>>18498109Most of the population is Shudras, yes. Shudras just means farmers/peasants which is >90%
>>18498138>>>/pol/begone.
>>18498124>Literally every fucking pol poster will SWEAR on their nans grave that Indians arent AryanThey are not Aryan in the sense that they are not White and in the sense that their Proto-Indo-Iranian ancestry is small.They are Aryan in the sense that their languages are Indo-Aryan and they have a small amount of Proto-Indo-Iranian admixture.The reason they are not considered Aryan is because the original Aryans (Proto-Indo-Iranians) were a White, European people with light features who went east.
>>18498159>They are Aryan in the sense that their languages are Indo-Aryan and they have a small amount of Proto-Indo-Iranian admixture.This is not how things work. Mexicans, for example, speak a European language and in some cases can also have more than 30% european ancestry, but this doesn't make them spanish or european at all.
>>18498159>The reason they are not considered Aryan is because the original Aryans (Proto-Indo-Iranians) were a White, European people with light features who went east.Is that what they teach in that sissy school of yours?
>>18498159Ok but they are at the very least, descendants of Aryans. Today they could be classified as Indo Iranians with heavy Aboriginal Dravidian admixture. The abbo part taking up over 80% of their DNA. The 20% Aryan part does the heavy lifting for basic level cognition that barely mimics base level intelligence(the intellect of an 11 year old)
Again, Indians are Vedic just as Mexicans are Iberian.
>Mleccha thread you're not aryan. You're Mleccha and worship Semitic gods the fact is There was no Sintashta or andronovo migration, as shown by the latest Iron Age Iranian samples, as well as the Sinauli and Southern Megalithic samples dated around 2000Bce–300 Bce. Swat Valley samples the real vedic people, hadonly 30% steppe. Androcucks, who were already 50–60% Northwestern Bharatiya (Iranian-related) through the core Yamnaya and later BMAC. Its over saar we wuz aryanz
>>18498180>>18498179>>18498173Read our scriptures, sameflag."Aryan" meant anything beyond nobility, and the supposedly "Dasyu" could also be Aryan, so what? The so-called "steppe ancestry" came from the woman.
>>18498173Aryans were White. The only people who are mad about that are the kind of people in your meme, Iranians, and Indians.
>>18498194No. See>>18498188The swat valley samples represent a different group of Indo-aryans.Vedas on the other hand were written in the parts of modern day Haryana/West Up, Upanishads were written in the same geography except it extended till kosala too.
>>18498212So Swatt is literally Female mediated and no sign of male migration exists thereNazi bros? Our answer??
>>18498212There's no such thing as Indian archaeogenetics. Your archaeologists are corrupt and literally cover up samples that disagree with their preferred chronology because your entire country is bunch of egotistical crybabies who are scared of having European admixture.Western geneticists had to come in and show you all have R1a and steppe admixture while being careful not to hurt your feelings.
>>18498227You literally all have R1a. What is even your point?
>>18498228>>18498234No, our soil isn't good for preservation, but all Vedic samples are like that:>>18498227By the way, which study is your sample from? Yes, you can't answer. Swat valley Iron age samples(Vedic era) which was mostly mediated by Aryan females(by 1200 B.C) who had less Steppe ancestry on the Y chromosome (~5%)...Implying that Steppe ancestry entered mainly through maternally
>>18498243Bronze age Iranians: Steppe being only 2%(R1a). Maternally their Steppe related mtDNA lineages are ~50-60% where mtDNA haplogroup U4 dominates(34%). Its over saar whites girls love BMAC and indus bros ;)
>>18498243Yes, saaar. Women conquered you and made you speak a European language and then forced you to practice a European religion. Then they all sprouted penises like hyenas and injected R1a up the asses Indian men. We wuz Amazons 'n shiiiet.
I have more Aryan DNA in my pinky than the entire Indian population combined.t. blond haired blue eyed Dane
>>18498350>Danes>Aryan >>18498308>xiiter postIrrelevant
>>18498308>european religion >eats cow poop
>>18498362That's literally one of your head archaeogeneticists admitting on Twitter that1) the leaked samples are real2) he's been covering up samples that disagree with his narrativeHe's as brilliant as a call center scammer. It's a huge scandal, and I know you know about it but you're playing dumb.Retards like that just reinforce the fact that India is a culture of scammers. Everything published by Indian archaeologists is complete garbage and they aren't even smart enough to hide it.All of this is beside the point though. You will continue denying the basic fact that Proto-Indo-Iranians were White people. They came from Europe. Proto-Indo-European does not come from India.
>>18498128Why are Indians not allowed to claim they are the same as their ancestors but whites are despite having no achievements and no bravery and nothing in common with the great men before them?
>>18498429Could just be a noisy sample because of low SNP… sure but Niraj Rajs reaction to the leak makes me think it is real.
>>18498512>>18498429This sample is 100% contaminated, you idiot. The SNP is worthless. The Vedic people were like that>>18498227
>>18498512The SNP count misses the point. The SNP count cannot dispute the fact that this is a steppe admixed individual.The sample is important for establishing the chronology of the Aryan invasion (or migration). It was left unpublished because they are currently pushing a different chronology. That's what they're doing behind the scenes. Just cherry picking the data they like.
>>18498516>100% contaminatedNo evidence of this. Stop coping.Honest institutions regularly publish contaminated samples by the way. The only reason to hide it is because you have the personality of a sleazy call center scammer.
>>18498429Wait until you see the archaeological mess that is India.I really can't find quality or unbiased material, and what I have found was actually done by academics outside of India and sometimes, outdated.For example, there is some evidence of Andronovic material culture in Balochistan and Pakistan, which can be interpreted as population movements.Looters continue to pillage Afghanistan’s rich archaeological heritage.. unfortunately, archaeology should be restricted to westerns.but this is never thoroughly investigated, and samples from these sites would be useful. >>18498212Are you suggesting Z93 was spread by females too or is it from Iran Neolithic or AASI Hunter Gathers?
>>18498512>but Niraj Rajs reaction to the leak makes me think it is real.The immediate takeaway is that Niraj Rai or someone he works for is a dishonest fraudster with an agenda. There is no reason for him to be so upset otherwise.Either he's really dumb enough to respond this way publiclyor he's felt he had to give this response publicly so the director of the Birbal Sahni Institute of Palaeosciences or anyone else would not think he was complicit in the leak.
>>18498539>For example, there is some evidence of Andronovic material culture in Balochistan and Pakistan, which can be interpreted as population movements.>Looters continue to pillage Afghanistan’s rich archaeological heritage.. unfortunately, archaeology should be restricted to westerns.Indians are truly retarded if they can't protect Pakistan and Afghanistan's archaeological sites
The fact is, both out of India jeets and Nordicist retards are wrong, and gay, and stupid. This is how the Indo-Aryans came to be:>Yamnaya (majority CHG/EHG admixture) expand west>~2900 bc, they mix with EEF and WHG to form the Corded Ware Horizon>Eastern CWC peoples start expanding east into Russia, north of the steppe (Fatyanovo)>the Abashievo culture forms in the southern Urals, influenced by the earlier Fatyanovo/CWC and the Catacomb/Poltavka culture on the steppe and forest steppe zone (yamnaya descendants)>~2200 bc, the Sintashta culture forms SE of the Urals from the aforementioned cultures as well as mixing with locals. Sintashta are probably one of the earliest groups of the earliest proto-indo-aryan speakersPausing the narrative here for a moment, we come to a group of chariot-riding pastoralists who likely speak proto-Indo-Iranian. They live in the southern Ural region, and their general genetic makeup so far has been CHG, WHG, EHG, EEF, neolithic anatolian, and some mixing of other groups from the north. I am not a fan of the term Aryan for several reasons, but arguably these are basically the first Aryans. They have no subcontinental DNA, mostly from Europe, the Caucasus, and Anatolia. But they are not Nordic looking. Their most common hair color is brown. Their most common hair color is brown. They might be lighter than the Yamnaya because of mixing with fairer European peoples, and probably wouldn’t look too out of place in southeastern Europe, but they do not resemble Swedes.1/2
>>18498580Sintashta were White people: >>18498194
>>18498580Jeet means Nordic
>>18498580>~2000 bc, two new cultures appear, the Srubnaya on the western steppe, and the Andronovo to the east.>the Andronovo expand south and east, into Central Asia proper>they mix with the advanced BMAC culture, who are mostly a mix of indigenous elements from the region and neolithic Iranian farmersThese are the peoples who would go on to invade India and Iran, and who the Vedas talk about. Aryan has cognates in other Indo European languages, but to me, they deserve it the most. As they went south they mixed with the locals of the Indus Valley and the Iranian plateau, and these fairer, steppe derived features were gradually watered down, as new identities were formed. Many modern Indians are descended from these peoples patrilinearly, because migrations are not mass annihilation of the older groups, but gradual mixing. Sometimes peacefully, through marriage alliances, sometimes violently, through killing the men and raping the women. But people who overemphasize that latter point are fetishizing history and missing the point. Instead of a massive wave of rape and death, migration happens gradually - bands of people moving in, establishing themselves as the ruling elite. Their language gets adopted, they are a higher status individual to marry, and over centuries, their indentity becomes dominant
>>18498588I never said they were not “white people” I said they were not “Nordic.” Nordicists do not know the difference
>>18498615You are factually incorrect unless you restrict your definition of Nordic to Swedes, Finns, or Balts. If Nordic means Northern European, the Sintashta had Nordic pigmentation, because in reality some parts of Northern Europe have comparable pigmentation.Genetically speaking Sintashta were ultra Nordic. Actually more Nordic than anyone alive today. This is because "Nordic" is common parlance for steppe admixture and low ANF. In the end, Sintashta plots closest to Northern Europeans on a PCA.
>>18498629>unless you restrict your definition of Nordic to Swedes, FinnsWell yeah. That is what the majority of people think Nordic means, not some hypothetical “nordic race” that squashes all the varied cultures of 1/3 of europe into some pointless supergroup to fit someone’s biasesSintashta plotting closest to Swedes is because of their high steppe DNA, this is true, but that ignores the entire process of how Scandinavians came to be vs how Sintashta came to be. It makes ignorant people think a homogenous group just migrated in a straight line from Sweden to India
>>18498643Nordic just means northern. If you mean Scandinavian, say Scandinavian.The PCA provides intuition on what Sintashta was like. If you want to ask something vague and somewhat subjective like "Are they Nordic?" the answer on the PCA is correct albeit vague and somewhat subjective."Are they Nordic?" is not a scientific question, but it can be answered anyway.
>>18498140ngl indian caste system is kinda based, europeans should've adopted it too (not necessarily for racial reasons, just because the average person is a soulless cow who deserves to be mistreated)
>>18498580>>18498606>As they went south they mixed with the locals of the Indus Valley and the Iranian plateau, and these fairer, steppe derived features were gradually watered down, as new identities were formedThis point continues to be raised in every discussion, while everything I have already presented is disregarded. First, how was this conclusion reached? We lack samples from the Cemetery H, Copper Hoard, and PGW cultures, which are precisely the candidates associated with Indo-Aryan migrations. However, if this sample>>18498512 is valid, and I am willing to consider it given the problematic reaction from parts of Indian academia, such populations were still homogeneous.If there is doubt regarding the sampling and no explanation is offered for Niraj’s unusual reaction, it is important to note that we have samples from Tazabagyab sites in Uzbekistan and from Tajikistan, dated to 1500–1000 BC, which display homogeneous genetic profiles similar to Steppe_MLBA, with little or no admixture from the "Iranian plateau". Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that these populations were homogeneous during this period.From a craniometric perspective, Sintashta and Andronovo have been described as Europoid and, more specifically, Nordic, although you were the first to state explicitly this Nordic characteristic that many tend to avoid mentioning. According to andrei:
>>18498606>they mix with the advanced BMAC cultureMoreover, this is an exceedingly simplistic and repetitive claim. First, the BMAC is a complex of independent cities, not a monoculture. The central flaw in this argument lies in asserting that Andronovo admixed with the BMAC, yet the majority of samples, including the southernmost Andronovo samples, show no significant "BMAC" or Gonur ancestry. Given that the archaeological cultures associated with the Andronovo migration, such as Yaz and Tazabagyab, appear to have had a relatively small population compared with contemporary sites in Iran, the inhabitants of these regions were still largely characterized by their steppe ancestry. That is precisely what the samples indicate.Note also that most of the alleged "BMAC influences" are vague, such as the question of fire worship, which is often attributed to the BMAC, although it is now known that fire worship as a ritual practice was already present in Sintashta and Andronovo settlements.https://ltrr.arizona.edu/event/7668https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/indoeuropean-puzzle-revisited/fire-and-water-the-bronze-age-of-the-southern-urals-and-the-rigveda/9FF4C26A7BC1751A587DD017670E7A62or even the supposed substratum "bmac", which although I am not particularly versed in historical linguistics, we have had threads about here before and many of the claims that Indra and Soma are derived from this substratum bmac are not compelling.
>>18498714The Indo-Iranic split probably occurs ~1800 BC, and then ~1600 the Scythians diverge and begin their expansion. ~1500 this forces Iranic groups southwards, causing them to invade the Oxus Basin, forcing the Indo-Aryan Tazabagyab Culture into Afghanistan and eventually the Punjab
>>18498725It is plausible, and some argue that Tazabagyab is Para-Andronovo. Be that as it may, the argument for an alleged early admixture with bmac, Gonur, zagrosian etc does not hold, especially when one considers samples such as these from Kashkarchi dated to 1000 BC. It is worth noting that there were steppe-derived groups that became fully sedentary, as in the case of the Tazabagyab culture, although an urban center at the Semiyarka site associated with Andronovo has already been identified. Maybe This challenges the notion that ancient steppe communities were strictly nomadic?? Tazabagyab shows greater affinities with Alakul' than with any other cultural horizon. Cherkaskul' is likely derived from Alakul', yet materially it resembles Fedorovo. Moreover, Indo-Aryan is very likely derived from Fedorovo, specifically southeastern Fedorovo. Fedorovo pottery was found in Shortugai, a colony in the Indus Valley in northern Afghanistan, c. 1800 BC. Unlike Alakul', Fedorovo practiced partial cremation, a typical trait of later Indo-Aryans. Therefore, I believe the Indo-Aryans are Fedorovo.
>>18498725>~1600 the Scythians divergeDid you take this from Herodotus or tomb records?
>>18498714What is your opinion on the Leiden University linguist Alexander Lubotsky's article "Indo-Iranian Substratum"? He proposed a BMAC origin for several atypical Proto-Indo-Iranian roots. Most of these roots correspond to irrigation and architecture, two areas in which these early Indo-Iranians could have learned a great deal from the inhabitants of the BMAC.
>>18498086>>But Indians aren't blonde haired blue eyed EuropeansThat's a meme, retard. Aryans were never blonde haired and blue eyed.
>>18498738Forgot the picI'm tired of discussing this every week, in short, it's plausible that the Vedic people were homogenous when they invaded, or if our friends prefer, migrated to India. It's useful to remember how the caste system created a strong north-south genetic Cline, although.>>18498747>Lubotsky's article "Indo-Iranian Substratum"? He proposed a BMAC origin for several atypical Proto-Indo-Iranian roots.As I said, I'm really not in a position to discuss linguistics because I only know the very basics. There are other anons here who could help you interpret this article, Although I know he's one of the proponents of the idea that Indra and Soma are both "bmac," this isn't as conclusive as it seems.I also vaguely remember Kuiper proposing a list of "300 bmac words," right? If anyone wants to contribute or explain this to us, feel free.
>>18498744Scythians are related to Karasuk. That's why the Jack chan ancestry >>18498757Or maybe they were related to Yaz I
>>18498753They are. See modern and ancient Europeans and Sintashta/andronovo were blonde and blue eyed, like the guy ur mom cheated on your father
>I also vaguely remember Kuiper proposing a list of "300 bmac words," right?The entire premise is dubious because there is no attested "BMAC language" so the categorization of a word as BMAC is a priori. No phonology or morphology of BMAC words is known.If someone has a list of 300 words with unknown etymology then it is likely some belong to a substrate just going by the numbers, but without any methodology to identify non-Indo-European words, it must also be the case that some are Indo-European. It's just that their etymologies are difficult or obscure.
>>18498086Good Morning Sir
>>18498086>Indians are Indo Aryans.Only some.The genetics show they didn't move very far into India. Down the Indus Valley, which is in modern day Pakistan.
>>18498772I read an article months ago by Witzel regarding substrates and he argued that many of these supposed substrates could actually have diverse origins from various extinct languages spoken in India. India was more linguistically diverse than we like to imagine, even during the time of the Harrapan civilization.
>>18498159>Aryans (Proto-Indo-Iranians) were a White, European people with light features who went east.MMmmm. Look at Afghanistan, and around the Tashkent area Sammarkand sort of areas.
>>18498820But then I believe he commits the same petitio principii as Kuiper and Lubotsky in this passage: but he was honest and left the question open. And how exactly is that determined?I much prefer the term "unknown Central Asian substrate" to simply stating that they are bmac. The reasons for considering bmac as linguistic borrowings are generally based purely on archaeological arguments extrapolated to linguistics. Keep that in mind.
>>18498086>aryanIts a Mesopotamia word>The name is found, apart from the similar one of a Mesopotamian city (Arattā), and an adjective (arattū, 'in the manner of Aratta, noble'), as that of an area called Aratta somewhere to the east of Mesopotamia, probably beyond the Zagros mountains, or at least east of Anšan (W.Persis); it also seems to be the name of a river in the Zagros.
>>18498847>>18498820https://www.academia.edu/43671589/Aryan_and_non_Aryan_Names_in_Vedic_India_Data_for_the_linguistic_situation_c_1900_500_B_C
>>18498086NOONE IN THE WORLD IS ARYAN; ARYANS BECAME EXTINCT MILLENNIA AGO; WHAT IS LEFT NOW ARE INDIVIDUALS WITH ARYAN RACIAL HERITAGE: ARYANIDS.IN INDIA, ARYANID PRESENCE IS INFIMAL; MOST PEOPLE IN INDIA ARE CROMAGNID.
>>18498967Witzel is biased and this article is garbage. I read it and he went so far as to claim that most important tribal names are non-Indo-Aryan. Why would anyone take this clown seriously?
>>18498977I also found it strange. I'm not advocating for anything, either.
>>18498981Witzel throws out a number out of thin air and says that "half" of the Vedic tribal names are of non-Indo-European origin
>>18498988>>18498977Professor Michael Witzel is one of the world's leading experts on Sanskrit and Vedic texts, but his theories on Indian prehistory and Hinduism generate strong tensions. Cry all you want, but most of the names are not IA.
Summary for OP:Proto-Indo-Iranians are the Aryans who brought Indo-European language to India and Iran.Those Aryans were originally White, without a doubt.What is controversial is what happened after the Indo-Iranian split up and how long the descendants stayed White or mostly White. I honestly do not care in the slightest over this part but it's so controversial that some take it too far and say not only were Proto-Indo-Aryans Brown but also Proto-Indo-Iranians. Well, we have genetic samples of them. What is there left to debate unless you're an out of India conspiracy theorist?Indians belong to the Indo-Aryan ethnolinguistic group. They inherited the Aryan identity from their ancestors./pol/ is pointing out that they inherited their namesake from White people and since they're Brown now, they're not the same thing.
>>18498243>No, our soil isn't good for preservationNeither is cremation, which Indians traditionally practiced for millennia
>>18498194>memegraph Sorry but you retards are best suited just going, "Do joos" whenever any evidence against your worldview is presented. Don't even try to mention data, it doesn't work for you guys.
>>18498761Why does he look mildly annoyed
>>18498086Pathetic we wuzzing. Jeets are closer to southern monkeys than persians
