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>>18498994
such as?

I am suspicious of people who need an all-seeing sky father to ensure they follow basic tenets of any society like 'don't kill people' and 'don't steal'. What am I supposed to expect these people are capable of when their faith is inevitably broken and they realize there is sky daddy

>>18499005
no*

>>18499002
Athiests do not believe, or have any basis to believe, there is qualitatively anything special or unique about conciousness or society's norms and morals. Therefore in interacting with other people it always has to be in the back of your mind that they have no reason to really believe other people are anything more than animals, and that there is any reason to be sociable or moral other than that is what they want to do at that exact moment. To live among athiests is to always fear being turned upon if they decide for whatever reason it is no longer in their best interests to act as a Child of God, who they believe does not exist.

>>18499005
I do believe you need to believe in your very core that there is something special about humans and society in order to participate in it yes. Athiests miss this foundational feature of being human and so can't really be treated like one. Why do you not feel beholden to treat bees and ants, and the laws of their society with respect?

>>18499011
>To live among athiests is to always fear being turned upon
In reality, atheists commit less crime than religious people so it's the opposite. Being religious requires believing in things that aren't real and justifying any wanton behavior as "a higher power wants it that way".

>>18499027
If you can't explain the casual link between believing morality doesn't exist and committing less crime the most rational explanation is that your relationship is correlative not correlative. Take away the free porn abortions and standards of living and see what the "rational" response to suffering really is. Not to mention that the modt lethal regimes have all been athiests. If you say that athiests commit less crime because they believe ultimately getting along with the state is more important than principles, doesn't that make athiests the perfect slaves? They are then at the same level as cattle, to be herded around by another farm animal with the right level of sociopathy.

>>18499051
correlative not causative*

>>18498994
huh?

>>18499051
>the casual link between believing morality doesn't exist and committing less crime
Nono the link is between not believing in things that don't exist like gods and not committing crime because you are attuned to reality rather than imagination, which is empirically observable since atheists factually commit less crime.
>muh murderous regimes
The nazis weren't atheists and the scale of historical genocide was more of a technological limitation than anything, the Cathar genocide and 30 years war show that Christians are perfectly willing to stamp out millions not too unlike mudslimes.
>If you say that athiests commit less crime because they believe ultimately getting along with the state is more important than principles
Atheists commit less crime due to having more developed prefrontal cortices and a better objective assessment of reality. If they didn't, they'd make bad decisions such as committing crime and believing in magic at higher rates.

>>18499011
>>18499017
An Abrahamkek committed the first murder on earth according to your bible. Not a good look bro

>>18499066
Do you admit that less deviance as measured in agregate according to the definitions of the dominant regime are your criteria for being human? Athiests commit millions, probably billions, of abortions across all continents every year. Just because these aren't legally or often culturally defined as crimes doesn't mean they aren't wrong. And in fact it's evidence that society is becoming more and more depraved without realizing it that such abominations are tolerated without even thinking about it in times where athiesm is more prevalent, the same with euthanasia and transgender castration. Education is the basis of morality for non religious people, , and their emotional reactions to the education are the full extent of their morality. You probably feel nothing at a lot of things I would. The point is morality is diverging but you still can't define what it is to be human other than submitting to the leading psychopath better than religious people.

>>18499069
Cain was an athiest if you read the very obvious subtext of rebelling against an all powerful God because he didn't like him.

>>18499086
lmao oh christkek cope

>>18499087
Do you rebel against gravity because it keeps you stuck on the ground where your wife's boyfriend is?

>>18499089
>christkek has cucking rent free in his head

you're just being funny now

>>18499090
Someone who believes God is all powerful and that experience has meaning cannot rationally rebel against God, just like you don't try and jump off a building believing you can fly. Cain acted insane like an athiest and so can be considered an athiest in that moment

>>18498994
>They reject the most basic assumptions for participating in reality after all
Brain trauma can change a person entirely and a belief in God can be influenced by magnets fucking with your brain waves
>I-its like a radio bruh!
Cope.
>>18499011
Most criminals are Christian tho. See white trash murdering eachother over meth, Mexican cartels skinning people alive, and blacks wearing crosses while they gun down a rival gangster.
>>18499051
Right back at you fag
>>18499084
Russia and African countries have the highest abortion rates. Cope, seethe, and pray.

>>18499097
>Russia and African countries have the highest abortion rates.
Actually not true, Russia is similar to the UK. Also, narrow abortions per capita by religious demographics and it's obvious abortion is nearly an exclusively athiest phenomenon.
>Right back at you fag
I'm not saying your humanity is dependent on your submission to the government, you are.
>Brain trauma can change a person entirely and a belief in God can be influenced by magnets fucking with your brain waves
And when you die, you can't repent any more, despite being very very aware. Is this the cutting edge of athiest debating, that when I'm asleep I'm asleep? Lmao

>>18499084
>Athiests commit millions, probably billions, of abortions
This isn't a bad thing.
>euthanasia
Not a bad thing.
>transgender castration
Religion is responsible for a billion times more genital mutilation and if you're an Abrahamist you literally worship a book where people are "divinely commanded" to mutilate baby penises.

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>>18498994
>Can non religious people even be considered concious? They reject the most basic assumptions for participating in reality after all
What basic assumption? That space daddy exists? lol, lmao even

>>18499129
Someone who does not respect human life does not deserve to have their life respected.

>>18499167
Neither do you. You want an innumerable amount of people to live in senseless pain and misery .

>>18499167
Someone who does not respect animal life does not deserve to have their life respected. I hope you're vegan.

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>>18499167
>Someone who does not respect human life does not deserve to have their life respected.
So by that logic, God doesn't deserve to be respected? Or does God get the pass, because reasons?
Death can be used to respect life. Babies that would be born malformed. People who are sick in various ways and want to end it. Death can be used as a way to alleviate suffering and therefore respect life more than continuing the torture of being alive in a fucked up way. The mutilation part is stupid considering the foreskin munching demon you worship. There is even sects in parts of the world that will stab their own bodies in various ways and go marching down the street in some festival in order to be identified with Christ. Complete retardation if you ask me. Go ahead, nail yourself to a plank if it makes you feel better about yourself.

I don't understand why there is such a fixation on the babies getting born when they will probably end up being thrown in a dumpster anyway or living such a toilsome agonizing life that it would have been better to not have been. Life isn't sacred. It grows on rocks and shit if it has to.

>>18499188
Apropos of nothing. I always think of how not too long ago some Japanese used to kill their babies after the first few births so they could better focus resources on the ones they already have. Far more extreme than anyone alive would be daring to go. And very banal. The world is much more interesting than we may think.

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>>18499224
Happy will be the one who seizes your children and dashes them against the rocks. Psalm 137:9

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK7P7uZFf5o

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>>18498994
According to abrahamocucks' goycattle brain you are not conscious if you think there's something wrong with the evil scum who commanded these acts

>Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)

>Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. (1 Samuel 15:3)

>>18499224
Not too long ago proper, god fearing Christians did the holocaust.

>>18499011
This claim is founded on the delusion that christendom is a utopia where cruelty and disregard to life has never existed, which is obviously fucking retarded.

>>18499011
>To live among athiests is to always fear being turned upon if they decide for whatever reason it is no longer in their best interests to act as a Child of God, who they believe does not exist.
That's true. But to live among christgolems is to always fear being turned upon if they decide for whatever reason it is no longer in their God's best plan to treat you like a Child of God.

>>18499678
>This claim is founded on the delusion that christendom is a utopia where cruelty and disregard to life has never existed, which is obviously fucking retarded.
No, it's founded on the delusion that the average theist is actually spiritually enlightened in the way the religion idealizes. But at least they have something to strive for. If recent history is any indication, atheists strive for maximum degeneracy.

>>18499694
>But at least they have something to strive for.
This is meaningless. If asked, atheists would strive for a world of prosperity and love without suffering just as christians would.

>>18499719
>atheists would strive for a world of prosperity and love without suffering
You can see for a fact that they don't. And why should they in the first place? What philosophical basis do they have to override human instincts that completely contradict such universalist values?

Define conscious.

>>18499738
Capable of being a subject (having a materially irreducible experience) rather than just an object (something reducible by to matter by a subject).

>>18499723
You’re being disingenuous. The leftist goal is the juvenile fantasy that every African can live a 1st world suburban life in a post scarcity world where everyone is free to express themselves in love and acceptance. It’s as noble a goal to strive for as “heaven”.
>but leftists aren’t nice
Neither are incels who claim righteousness.

>>18499770
>The leftist goal is the juvenile fantasy that every African can live a 1st world suburban life in a post scarcity world where everyone is free to express themselves in love and acceptance
Ok, but this goal has no more philosophical standing than the goal of collecting every funkopop or being the richest streamer. You're repeatedly failing to comprehend the point precisely because I'm right.

>>18499751
Define "reducible to matter."

>>18499095
>Someone who believes God is all powerful and that experience has meaning cannot rationally rebel against God
You're literally doing that every time you sin lmao.

>>18499776
I’m not arguing philosophy. It’s just literally what atheists desire regardless of whatever cognitive dissonance they suffer from.

>>18499776
Why the fuck would anyone need to "philosophically justify" doing what they desire? Any brain left in that skull of yours?

>>18499795
>Why the fuck would anyone need to "philosophically justify" doing what they desire?
They couldn't even if they wanted to. Becky's hippy ideals are no more valid than Stacy's obsession with increasing her social media followers but far less potent. And that's exactly the point. Is this board always full of literal imbeciles or is it just the theism threads?

>>18499800
You didn't answer my question, low iqoid. You know why? Because you can't think of an answer lol.

>>18499777
>Define "reducible to matter."
Can be explained and comprehended in terms of particle interactions.

>>18499804
Ok, it's clear at this point that you're mentally ill. Moving on. Protip: your simplistic programming defines that you WILL shit out another post that no one's gonna read.

>>18499806
As predicted, you couldn't answer the question and instead you attempted to cast a hex to prevent me from responding.
See how these arguments of yours crumble under the tiniest bit of scrutiny and then you flee?

>>18499791
>I’m not arguing philosophy.
Then why are you replying at all? Did you run out of context window? What to strive for as a culture/society is fundamentally a philosophical question.

>>18499811
>atheists desire human prosperity same as christians
>no they don’t
>but they do
>BUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN???!?!?!
Sneed

>>18499813
>atheists desire human prosperity
Empirically, they don't. And why would they? I guess you really did run out of context window because you're looping now.

>>18499817
>Empirically, they don't.
Prove it

When I say at least Christians have something to strive for, what I mean is that there's something it's like to be a good Christian. Being a good atheist constitutes nothing beyond effectively banishing the idea of God from your life.

But even if you swap the morally empty label of 'atheism' for some brand of secularist humanism, you only gain a standard for what it means to be a good follower of that particular ideology, not for what Good is in general - you concede that Good is always up for grabs when you subscribe to secularism. Peddling "benevolent" humanist norms on top of that is just a subjective preference, according to your own overarching framework.

>>18499837
Christians may be wrong in their choice of axioms, but the choice of axioms is always a philosophical question. Atheists are either wrong on a logical level when they try to make moral arguments, or they are living in dissonance when they realize they have no grounds to make any but still demand others to conform to their moral intuitions.

>>18499806
>Anon starts doing the 4chan equivalent of plugging his ears and screaming "I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU, LA LA LA LA!"
>Somehow thinks he's winning the argument.
Come on man, you're making us theists look bad.

>>18499837
>>18499843
See >>18499795.

>>18499855
>>18499856
>mentally ill and seething

>>18499011
Notice the cope, the deflection, the avoidance of the fundamental question, the rushing towards crime statistics and percieved backwardness instead of giving an actual reason as to why trust them behaving morally if they fundamentally do not believe there's justice beyond what can be physically inflicted by society

>>18499870
It's literally christian doctrine that christians sin constantly lol. You have no way to cope with countries like Czechia being safe as fuck compared to your based and christpilled crusaderlands.

>>18499881
>countries like Czechia being safe as fuck
Your predecessors would have used Germany or Sweden as an example. I wonder what happened to that. :^)

>>18499894
An influx of people who believe in god.

>>18499866
>Lol, ur mad. So mad. Why u mad bro?
Are you going bring out every childish deflection in the book or what? Next thing I know you're going to start telling me you're right and I'm wrong because your God can beat up my God.

>>18499895
>An influx of people who believe in god.
How did they get there?

>>18499911
They got invited by bleeding heart Christians like Angela Merkel from the Christian Democratic Union.

>>18499837
>there’s something it’s like to be a good Christian
But there’s no standard to what a good Christian is. It’s why crusaders raped while your grandma thinks dancing is sin while the resident /his/tard thinks Christ is when White people. Christians will literally argue against what Jesus himself said in the Gospels if it serves against their material benefit. It’s fundamentally just based on any given individual’s own conscience same as atheism.
Being a good Christian constitutes nothing beyond putting “Christ is King” in your twitter bio.

Pretty funny how this mumbling mental patient's (>>18499898) master argument was that he doesn't need to justify anything, and 5 minutes later he's frothing at the mouth with rage because he isn't getting an audience with me to justify his deformed ideology. He WILL try to address me again with more paragraphs I simply won't read. :^)

>>18499923
>They got invited by bleeding heart Christians
It's not every day that I own someone so hard they actually lose their mind and start spouting psychotic delusions. I take this as a concession.

>>18499924
See >>18499931

>>18499931
I like how you didn't include the rest of the post in your quote because it utterly destroys your argument lol.
Next you will argue that real christianism has never been tried.

>>18499936
I like how this psychotic patient's primitive programming is forcing it to reply over and over. :^)

>>18499938
>loses argument
>acts smug about the fact that the person he was talking to replied to him
lol

>>18499935
Cope

>>18499940
You're mentally ill and seething.

>>18499942
Nope, that's you. You're still seething about the fact that you have no reply to moslems being invited to Germany by Merkel's CDU.

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>You're still seething about the fact that you have no reply to moslems being invited to Germany by Merkel's CDU.
Why are atheists so much more likely to suffer from mental illnesses?

>christranny apologetics is easily picked apart
>has a melty
Tale as old as /his/

>>18499928
I've referenced my own belief in God both times I've replied to you. I was hoping that would make it clear that I am NOT the atheist anon you were bickering with but I guess that was little too subtle for you, huh?

>>18499870
>an actual reason as to why trust them behaving morally if they fundamentally do not believe there's justice beyond what can be physically inflicted by society
There isn't one. They point to the material success of the western system (which they are in the process of tearing down) but literally cannot grasp the point being made. "Crime" and "safety" are subjective measurements built on social assumptions.

>>18499967
If you do not assume the social assumptions are based in anything objective and permanent i.e. a divine reality, you only participate in society at the surface level of fear pleasure and punishment. You are animals.

>>18499968
And this gets you…. fear of heaven and hell. GG

>>18499970
>Christianity is when heaven and hell
If I tell you there's a fundamentally good cosmic order and hope for both yourself and the broader society you live in to aspire to, why is the first thing you think about how much you can get away with by deviating from it? The positive aspect of religious society is arguably more important than the negative, but athiesm does not have a positive or negative influence on morality because it doesn't have any. The difference is an individual finding a reason to act beyond themselves and a dog figuring out what it's master wants it to do for the chemical soup bone it needs for gratification with no transcendent experience

>>18499959
See >>18499837, >>18499843
Nothing in these posts has been disputed.

>>18499952
Because facing reality sucks sometimes, yo. Why do you think religion has survived this long? Having all the answers feels better than uncertainty for most people. Anons always throw out cope as an insult, but religion literally is a coping mechanism on multiple levels. It provides meaning, answers, and storytelling. We eat that shit up.

>>18499805
Alright. Now prove me that your experience doesn't fall into that. I am one step away from accepting Christians are right. You can do it!

>>18499116
>And when you die, you can't repent any more, despite being very very aware. Is this the cutting edge of athiest debating, that when I'm asleep I'm asleep? Lmao
No proof of this. There is proof however that if Dr. Chad hits your brain wirh a powerful enough magnet that you’ll completely stop believing in God (:

>>18500143
You are proving the point of this thread, that you only respond to pain signals and conditioning to deduce meaning from experience. Like a dog, it's very sad! Anyway, please prove to me why you should be considered human when you clearly lack the epistemic faculties to engage in human society?
>>18500147
If I give you Datura is the psychedelic world real even when the trip ends, or are you going to go around telling drug psychosis victims their interpretation of base reality is judt as hecking valid? You are a clown.

>>18499777
Not puppeteered by a ghost

>>18499086
>Cain was an athiest
>He was rebelling against an all powerful God because he didn't like him.
These both can't be true at the same time. If he was an atheist he doesn't believe in God and can't rebel against something he doesn't believe exists.

>>18500172
No, he believed that he was rebelling against a powerful but finite being that had accepted his brother's sacrifice instead of his. If he believed there were permanent and unbearable consequences for his rebellion he would not have. done so. Even Satan is an athiest in the sense that he does not really believe God is infinite who will truly inflict infinite and unbearable punishment on him, because he is stupid.
Put another way, any sin is an expression of unbelief in God and God's infinite goodness, and thus how terrible it is to voluntarily seperate oneself from it.

Atheists literally believe that the PHYSICAL, ENTIRELY CONTINGENT UNIVERSE caused itself. Kek

>>18499066
It's amazing how leftist retards just lie while doubling down on said lies.

>>18500143
>. Now prove me that your experience doesn't fall into that.
To claim it does would be a basic category error.

>>18500134
>Because facing reality sucks sometimes
You're not facing reality. You're facing mentally ill distortions.

why are atheists so histrionic and overly emotional about something they don't believe in?

>>18499097
>>I-its like a radio bruh!
>Cope.
Someone isn't aware of the hard problem.

>>18500209
Seething

>>18500241
that's what you're doing, correct.

>>18500209
It's driven by ego. They want you to acknowledge that they can refute a strawman argument. Its a way for them to feel smart through roll playing and imagination.

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>>18500290
>roll playing

>>18500186
Must have been magic

>>18500303
>illegal insect.jpg

>>18500161
>You are proving the point of this thread, that you only respond to pain signals and conditioning to deduce meaning from experience.
So how's that any different from you?

>Anyway, please prove to me why you should be considered human when you clearly lack the epistemic faculties to engage in human society?
Why be so aggressive? I know I shouldn't expect people who think slavery and child rape are OK to be courteous, but still. Also, I will when you establish the premise of that loaded question.

>>18500163
Now prove ghosts exist.

>>18500199
You have the burden to prove this claim.

>>18500327
>You have the burden to prove this claim.
There's nothing to "prove". You're making a basic category error to the effect that red is made of atoms.

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>>18500322

>>18500335
He didn't have a loicense for all those extra legs.

>>18500327
>I know I shouldn't expect people who think slavery and child rape are OK to be courteous
The biggest impediment to ridding the world of child raping slavers is athiests who don't actually believe they're injustices because they don't believe injustices are a real thing. Athiests say if someone's culture and religion makes a moral claim (except European Christians) then we have no right to judge that moral claim as superior or inferior to our own moral intuitions. You say child rape and slavery are OK, unless you would say justice does exist after all and embarrass yourself even more?

>>18500348
Why you think it matters so much what people say?
Either these things are real or not

>>18500355
>why is social action important in society
I'm saying injustices are real and as a consequence of athiests saying justice is a relative concept dependent on culture objective injustice is allowed to persist when we have the means to prevent it. Do you think justice is a real thing or not?

>>18500348
Wrong.
I judge people according to my own morals, not other people morals.

Atheism does not entail that I have to value other people's morals over my own.
For example. If someone says it's moral to cut off their children's foreskins, I am under no obligation to agree with that. I can, and do, disagree with that.
I judge away and condemn them for doing genital mutilation. It's immoral and awful.

>>18500320
Correct.

>>18500359
Someone is robbing you. Just inform them that actually justice is REAL.
That will get them to return your wallet.

fucking idiot

>>18500359
No, justice is made-up.
There's no big magic list of what's just and unjust floating around in aetherspace.

>>18500385
>>18500390
I noticed atheists love denying an objective external reality that allows for love and justice to co-exist, while kvetching about how they're more capable of unconditional love than dem christians.

>>18500401
Love is REAL to me

>>18500377
>>18500385
The end point of your belief system is to ignore it entirely and act however you want, yes we know that. Your entire argument has been rehashed thousands of times and isn't new. Your only problem is that when telling people how to behave a certain way you need X, where X is the reason to behave a certain way, it's not clever to shift between the micro and macro levels of analysis when it suits you, it only adds to the overall point that there really is no internally consistent reasoning (as you admit!). When you say in intellectual circles morality is relative, i.e. that is a view expressed that you would like to be adopted, are you really so stupid as to assume that people aren't going to act on that belief practically?

>>18500390
Stabing a random victim in the eye with a hot knife, for no other reason than you personally just love the smell of burning flesh, and want to laugh at another person's pain, is objectively evil and unjust. No amount of postmodernist bullshit will stop it from being evil and unjust. It is directly measurable by the way everyone around you reacts when you try to do it, and the objective truth that you wouldn't dare try to do it, nor even talk about doing it in a public setting.

>>18500427
Next time someone stab you in the eye
simply inform them that justice is REAL

besides, people get stabbed in the eye all the time
is this evidence against your position?

>>18500436
Just because INJUSTICE exists, that doesnt mean that JUSTICE, does not exist.

What are you smoking?

What's the difference between thinking eye stabbing is bad, and eye stabbing REALLY being bad?

>>18500440
You made it sound like there was some utility to justice being REAL
But people can act however they feel like anyway, how does that cash out?

>>18500446
The first step is acknowledging that justice exists, then we can talk about why most living beings actively choose to build a world full justice, over a world full of injustice.

>>18500412
No, I really think cutting of foreskins is bad.
Can you say the same?

>>18500443
Follow your implied stance more than 2 steps.
If eye stabbing only warrants a response from society because it is collectively agreed to be bad for political convenience and cohesion required for high living standards, you imply that eye stabbing is only bad insofar as it mitigates the functioning of a society. Therefore any act, child sacrifice, rape and slavery are only bad insofar as they interfere with the established social order.
You have successfully deconstructed all moral reforms and developments made by liberals (!) since the enlightenment, congratulations.
There is then really nothing wrong with any practice of Islamic society because it does not interfere with the established operations of such. Is your goal to make morality a purely political concept?

>>18500454
Would still entirely hinge on me subjectively caring about being just or not

Thinking that justice is REAL, is still entirely compatible with being a thieving nigger and wanting your wallet.
"Justice is real, but I don't care, I just care about stealing your wallet."


I really don't get the point of all of this, if it just reduces to how people feel about wallet stealing. It's the same fucking thing on both views.

>>18500460
You're not even engaging with the hypothetical. You just denied that I thought it was bad.

What's the difference between thinking Islam is bad, and Islam being REALLY bad?
(keep in mind, I actually think this. So you can't change the hypothetical and say that actually I have to be okay with Islam.)

Seems like the main perks is being able to use the English words REALLY and ACTUALLY as intensifiers
(keep in mind, atheists can also use words this way. The words don't stop working just because moral anti-realism is true)

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>>18500456
"Dinah" is a name that means "good judgment".

"Milah" is a word that can mean "word" or "circumcision/cut".

The simple believe every word, but the prudent watch where they step.

When Dinah (good judgement) is rapped, the rapist is tricked into cutting his dick, and he is then executed.

So yes. Cutting your dick because of semantic drift, instead of watching your step, is le bad.

>>18500443
>What's the difference between thinking eye stabbing is bad, and eye stabbing REALLY being bad?
The difference is whether or not human thought tends to naturally converge on it. If it does, there is something deeper there.

>>18500333
Now you have the burden to either prove I don't experience "red" or concede I am conscious.

>>18500348
>The biggest impediment to ridding the world of child raping slavers is athiests
Are you sure about that? Because in the French revolution, it was the secular revolutionaries that abolished slavery while Christian conservatives wanted to keep it. And in the US Civil War, it was the secular north that sought to abolish it while the Christian south wanted to keep it. And to this day, it's secular liberals that side with the north while the Christian conservatives keep trying to rehabilitate the south.

And then there's this that just happened: https://legiscan.com/OK/text/SB504/id/3358236
A bill to ban child marriage was voted on, 36 nays, all Republicans, not a single trans drag queen atheist anarcho-communist. Care to explain?

>You say child rape and slavery are OK, unless you would say justice does exist after all and embarrass yourself even more?
My morality is socially constructed, and it tells me slavery and child rape are extremely vile. Meanwhile, can you show me the verses in the book that shapes yours that condemn them?

>>18500503
>you have the burden to either prove I don't experience "red"
No, I don't, but I accept your concession and look forward to some kind of intelligent response from you now that you've acknowledged your category error.

>>18500495
Doesn't follow, there's no normative content to metaethics
literally everyone could be subjectively against eye stabbing, and yet it only be subjectively bad. It doesn't become REALLY bad, just because a lot of people "converge" on it

Morality is not what's popular
something being popular is not evidence of it REALLY being good or bad

>>18500511
You said I don't experience anything that's not an interaction of atoms, then you named something I experience that you admitted is not an interaction of atoms. If one of us just ratfucked himself with a damning concession here, I'm afraid it's you.

There's my intelligent response. Looking forward to further damage control from your part. XOXO

>>18500467
No one, other than the theif, wants the thief to exist. Therefore, by choosing to be unjust and evil, you have just created infinite enemies. This is what is meant when the Greeks say, "hubris leads to nemesis".

In contrast, if you chose to be just and good, you inherit eternal life. You will be lifted up, and loved.

In the long run, it takes more energy to be evil. Evil actors are short sighted, and must spend energy either hiding, or opposing the will of others.

Good actors are given strength.
Evil actors are opposed.

>>18500185
You can't be an atheist and believe in God existing at all. Satan can't possibly be an atheist.

>>18500513
>refuting points no one made
Low IQ biobot.

>>18500525
>you named something I experience
Proof?

>>18500531
>converge
Fucking wild how you shit and moan about atheists doing what's popular.
Then your evidence for figuring out things are objectively good or bad.... Is if it's popular or not.

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If you intend to convince someone about what they should do, the only way that actually works is to start with what they want and explain how following a certain course of action will help them get what they want. That's how religions work in practice even if they claim God as a source of objective morality. God's objective morality doesn't count for much unless it's backed by, at-minimum, desirable consquences for those who follow it. You can't compel someone into agreement about what should be done by sheer insistence that your "should" is objective. Acknowledging this doesn't require devolving into blind short-term pleasure seeking idiots or refusing to collectively enforce laws, because that is not, in fact, what most people want. There can be moral progress, but the progress is based on developing a better understanding of what we want and how we should go about obtaining it, not God publishing a new update to the rulebook every few thousand years for us to argue over how it should be interpreted.

>>18500513
>popular
Its not about "popular". You objectively know its bad to stab your own eyes out. Its not popular, its objectively a fact that you dont want it. You can measure it, but asking people "do you want me to do this to you". They will say "no". There is your objective evidence that its bad.

>>18500527
Yes, choosing to steal wallets will piss of everyone that wants to keep their wallets.
This is also true on my view.

>>18500534
>Then your evidence for figuring out things are objectively good or bad.... Is if it's popular or not.
Your psychosis caused you to hallucinate this. It never actually happened. How come I have the power to make you literally lose your mind like this just by rubbing your nose in some facts?

>>18500477
OK. I'll answer you in exclusively non religious terminology because that's the language that's evolved in liberalism to talk about reforms. The difference between thinking eye stabbing, child rape, and islam are bad, and those things really being bad is the ability of arguing both to advance a society morally. The "utility" (althought I don't think utility is all there is as I will elaborate) in having morality be an objective thing that society increasingly more and more perfectly conforms to enables growth and (ironically) experimentation that historically has led to increasingly the increasingly optimized social order that allows you to say today that liberal westerners commit less crime and are more integrated into society. The abolition of slavery and advancement of religious and political freedom under the assumption that there really is a good that society is NOT living up to, and the explosion in growth and advancement after are proof of this. Now, some factions want to kill the golden goose and freeze moral progress at this point in history and capitalize on power from coalitions built around current injustices, transgenders, homosexuality, abortion, islam. Relativism is not a new thing and it's objective is to freeze the advancement of the status quo at a particular point for the benefit of interest groups. Now you may say then, do I think objective morality then is only useful for its political utility? I think historical trends prove that relativism is not correct because optimization proves we are getting something out of reality as a society that we were materially not before, i.e. conforming to objective reality literally actually makes the world better. You might as well ask "what is the difference between thinking gravity is real and gravity REALLY existing", the implications are so obvious that the only conclusion must be that it really does exist.

>>18500537
No, I subjectively don't want my eye to be stabbed.
And if I asked people how they felt about getting their eye stabbed, I would be measuring.. how they feel about getting their eyes stabbed.

There's no view from the point of no-one about what people want. That is total nonsense.
You are explicitly talking about people's wants, which is a subjective topic.

EVERYONE could be agreeing that they don't want their eye stabbed. Doesn't mean it doesn't hinge on people's subjective preference.
Just that everyone agrees.

>>18500541
>human thought tends to naturally converge on it
What did you talk about in this sentence, if not popularity?

>>18500533
You claimed I don't (>>18500503), you have the burden of proof.

>>18500538
If the thief goes to a judge and says, "i subjectively feel that it's good to steel, because it make me happy", that is not an equaly valid proof that stealing is now ok. The thief is still objectively wrong, despite their subjective opinion which is based on unsound arguments of what the definition of good and bad is.

Stop defining bad behaviors as "good", just because they make one subject happy at the expense of all other living beings.

>>18500550
An objective invariant.

>>18500558
That's not my post and I'm still waiting for you to prove your claim.

>>18500535
>progress is based on developing a better understanding of what we want
>but what we want is entirely determined by education and surroundings and this axiom can't be questioned or you're shunned from the tribe
>???

>>18500543
>"what is the difference between thinking gravity is real and gravity REALLY existing"
If people just thought gravity was real. They would jump and fly up into space.

If people just thought morality was real, they would be acting according to their goals and preferences.
Which is exactly how we observe people acting.

It's not that deep. People just don't want to stab each other's eyes. Most of the time.
Sometimes they do.
My view perfectly predicts this.

Your view brings nothing

>>18500567
Notice how I didn't say the second thing.

>>18500565
Thank you for once again exemplifying how Christianity is all about lying and denying the burden of proof. No wonder there's a negative correlation between IQ and religiosity.

>>18500561
Next time I get caught stealing wallets I will inform the judge that it's OBJECTIVLY good to steal, and he'll have to let me go.

>>18500573
I'm not Christian and I'm still waiting for you to prove your claim.

>>18500567
No, I'm saying the performance of an assumption is a pretty good way to determine of something is real or not. If people thought gravity wasn't real they'd try walking off cliffs and causing harm, strongly suggesting gravity is actually real. In aggregate, assuming morality is an objective thing to conform to has historically allowed benefits instead of harms, strongly implying morality is an objectove thong for society to conform to

>>18500561
Why would the judge care about what the thief says he feels like?
The judge is one of the people that wants to keep his wallet. He doesn't care about what the thief wants.

>>18500593
>Why would the judge care about what the thief says he feels like?
He wouldn't. Thats the point. The subjective feelings of the theif don't matter. Postmodernism is based on this idea that all subjective feelings and world views are equally sound. They are not. In the real world, no one entertains these subjective arguments. They know the theif is wrong, and they dont care about his subjective "reality" and flawed opinions.

>>18500591
meant for>>18500568

>>18500580
I will when you prove yours. :)

>>18500613
>when you prove yours.
My what? You sound legit mentally ill.

>>18500591
Yeah, falling of a cliff is a great way to figure out that gravity is real.

I don't get how you figure out if an action is subjectively bad, or objectively bad.
People being subjectively against actions that causes harm and for actions that benefits, is entirely predicted.

All it takes, is for people to subjectively value the things you talked about


I think it's crazy how the objective moral facts happens to align with human preference, and people think it's anything more than human preference

>>18500618
The claim you made in >>18500333. And no, I'm not retarded enough to believe you when you pretend that's somebody else.

>>18500637
I'm making a direct observation which you've already effectively conceded here:
>>18500503

So if we take a moral fact (this can be hypothetical, you don't have to think it's a real fact)
like wearing mixed fabrics of wool and linen - that is objectively bad

Here it doesn't cause any obvious harm or take away anyone's benefit
How could we go about figuring out if this was an objective moral fact or not?

What would be the difference between mixed fabrics just being subjectively bad, or objectively bad?

All this talk about walking off cliffs, it should be pretty easy?
No! Turns out moral facts are only easy when it's stuff everyone already agrees on

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>>18498994

Wtf are we doing?

Religious idiots: You're not converting anyone here.

Atheist idiots: You're not deconverting anyone here.

All idiots: THIS life is the common denominator that we agree on having (inb4 one of you fuckloafs disputes this point, you're an outlier and you can fuck off). Go spend it actually living.

>>18500651
>THIS life is the common denominator that we agree on having
Right, and atheist niggercattle is actively making it worse.

>>18500644
So you concede I have consciousness hence the whole debate. :)

>>18500656
Just pray for Daddy to handle them then, dunno why you're trying to do his job. Oh wait.

>>18500657
>the spambot breaks and devolves into incoherence
Accepting concession and moving on. The retarded niggerbrain programming will force this imbecile to (You) me again even though no one's gonna read it.

Being an atheist is not special, you only have to reject this obvious fictional god character like Santa that anyone past age 14 can do. It's not hard to see past this bullshitry. What's little more difficult is then establishing a proper epistemic structure that consistently grounds meta and normative values. This can be done but most people will never put in the effort to build this framework piece by piece, so out of sheer laziness they just accept God and metaphor their way around his attributes to fit their own internal framework.

>>18501253
Well said, anon

>>18501253
>>18501301
Now sniff each other's assholes.

>>18500202
>my imaginary friend makes me feel better!
I really wouldn’t be calling anyone mentally ill if I were you.

>>18498994
atheists are low iq

>>18501253
>that consistently grounds meta and normative values
The entire thread has been athiests ignoring that it's definitionally impossible to do this and shouting generic talking points into the void THOUGH

>>18500186
The universe is not contingent.

>>18500656
The greatest places on earth are all atheist secular states. The shittiest ones are theistic religious shitholes.