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>>18500945
Jesus said that only those born of the spirit can inherit the kingdom, and not everyone is.

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>>18500949
EXACTLY, god does only choose a few for the salvation of their souls

>>18500953
but through their salvation the world entirely is saved and so it was not just for their sake. And soul does not mean what you think it does.

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>>18500959
>but through their salvation the world entirely is saved and so it was not just for their sake

what?

>and soul does not mean what you think it does

the soul is the self. calvin believed in the platonic soul on regards of its duality and identity, in opposition of the catholic interpretation of aquinas/aristotelic view of the soul

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>>18500963
The soul is like a job title or job description, or a name which describes a role within the heavenly kingdom. Being given a christian name was meant to convey that sense and resonate with whatever gifts and talents of the spirit that a person manifests. It is eternal in the same way that heaven is eternal, will always require certain souls to serve certain purposes, and they can not be destroyed. That is what "soul" means, or should mean if it was still understood properly.

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>>18500982
>the soul is like a job title or job description, or a name which describes a role within the heavenly kingdom

i understeand what you mean, but i disagree, i think the soul is just the word that describes of the core essence of a living organism. with this said, i agree with the fact that we have specific wording by god in regards to what we should do and how we should do it, and how that is reflected in heaven. a great deal of the calvinist faith is to accept your own place both within to earth and within the heaven

>>18501025
>the core essence of a living organism
that is spirit, and according to christian belief their is only one source of all spirit.

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>>18501027
spirit and soul are the same thing, calvin would work with platonic though but was similar in aquinas in regards that the identity of someone is unified and not declared though different parts

>>18500982
i like how you basically put calvinist though to the ultimate useful step. since calvinism believes in predetermination, the soul meaning only relays on what god has prepared for it, so any other description would fall short, i still disagree though

>>18501032
>spirit and soul are the same thing
that is nonsensical at a fundamental level

>god and the soul are ontologically different beings

Human souls come from God's own breath.
It is through this living means of Adam's animation that human will is derived from God's very own.

Free will is actually a gift from God himself, basically the first he gave to man. One of the most meaningful, it gives meaning to obedience and forgiveness. Without agency, these words mean nothing.
Jesus' human soul is not ontologically different from his own divine breath.

This is why Adam was able to disobey God.
Because God gave him that power, though the will of man is not stronger than God's own since man is created and limited, it is capable of determination.

Also, in Acts 7 Stephen tells the Jews they always resist the Holy Spirit.
If Calvin were right about the irresistibility of grace, which comes from the Holy Spirit, this would be impossible and Stephen would not have said it. Clearly, the grace that comes from the Holy Spirit is in fact resistable, or you're calling Stephen a liar.

Anyways, Calvinism is not apostolic and is modernism.
Calvin was a heretic, and the fruit of his heresy is obvious if you objectively assess what happened because of people who claim him. Endless schism and confusion.

>>18501027
>there* is

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>>18501038
no, its just semantics

>>18501050
different words mean different things for specific reasons

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>>18501042
calvin doesn't say that the creation of souls are independent of God own volition, rather he specify how we are in fact, dependent of God at any moment

is true, stephen believes in the resistence of the holy spirit, i guess calvin wasn't right about everything

>anyways, Calvinism is not apostolic and is modernism

>calvin was a heretic, and the fruit of his heresy is obvious if you objectively assess what happened because of people who claim him

>endless schism and confusion

is true that protestantism has evolved into a whored shape of christianity, and that atheism and liberal slutness comes from protestantism, but calvin theology is objectively right in the way that he denounces the intervention of the catholic church in regards on how to interact with God, and his doctrine of total depravity really makes a difference on how we need to interact with people and how we need to interact with God. i think that though liberalism is a consequence of protestantism, protestantism gave a great gift to to the faithful, wich is the agency of interacting with God yourself

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>>18501056
have you ever heard of a synonym?

>>18501068
spirit and soul are not synonyms

>>18501069
yes they are

>>18501063
>his doctrine of total depravity
The gospel of Matthew describes Joseph as a just man.
I've seen people deny it's possible for that to be true of men because of this heresy.

Now, that's an easy enough detail to overlook considering it's tucked into the very first chapter.
But it's still meaningful and speaks to the inherent dignity of man, who speaking of creation God said that it was good.

>denounces the intervention of the catholic church
The church is supposed to intervene for people. It's saints do all the time.
Abraham intervened for Sodom of all places. The church shares his faith.

>>18501072
that is heresy, one is explicitly a part of the trinity and the other is not.

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>>18501090
>one is explicitly a part of the trinity and the other is not

what?

>>18501083
>the church is supposed to intervene for people. It's saints do all the time

a priest tried to sell my great-great-grandmother a piece of heaven, lol. the church needs to intervene right, but the church is equal in all parts and anchored in christ, the catholic church is made like a ladder of heavenly people, one more disconnected with the reality than those who are below them.

i am still catholic, because it has an apostolic fundation, wich calvinism doesn't, but that doesn't mean i condone every thing that the catholic church express though

>>18501116
>because it has an apostolic fundation, wich calvinism doesn't,
The Nestorians have apostolic succession too it didn't prevent them becoming heretics

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>>18501129
i dont have a say on that. i do not believe in the two-natured christ theology of the nestorians but i have no way of refuting them. if they are apostolic then some truth has to be hidden under their theology

the thing with the bible and religion, is that is like a open code, and maybe a lot of people are going to disagree with me, but is very hard to create a theology based on a text wich is uncertain and wrote like if it were a poem

what i like about calvinism, is that though is a hard-shaped theology, its totally based on the subjective proposition that God has a monarch-like nature

>>18501116
>sell my great-great-grandmother a piece of heaven

Maybe someone did try to scam your gamgam, that was wrong and indulgences don't absolve sins. They remit temporal acts of penance, which may be prescribed by the confessor.
Anyone selling confession service were piling coals on their own head.

Jesus is totally free to forgive sins that just happen to not be confessed to a priest.
He can just do that, his mercy isn't limited to the operations of his church militant. Neither is grace limited to the ordinary means, but continually overflow it's cup.
That's not to say other religious bodies are possessed of the ordinary means of grace.

They are not. To the extent that certain individuals in these visibly unChristian groups may be saved it is *despite* their affiliation rather than because of it.

If someone were compelled to pay for confession, I would say that wrong would not mean their personal confession were invalid providing they were truly repentant. Since true repentance is an essential element of that sacrament. Their confessor, however, would be guilty of a crime as serious as selling ordination.

He simply promised his apostles that he would forgive those that they forgave. He empowered them to do just that through the Holy Spirit.
These, the ordinary means of grace, are absolutely *guaranteed* to be really effective. But there are extraordinary means.

In short, those who never heard his name or knew his church exists still have hope.
Christ is the best judge possible, better even. He will render justice to all, surprising many who think they know exactly what form that will take.

>the church is equal in all parts
Is every part of your body functionally identical to one another?
Or do you put gloves on your hands and shoes on your feet?
No, particular gifts belong naturally to certain members of the body.

>more disconnected with the reality than those who are below them
Nobody is asking you to condone everything any Catholic has ever done.

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>>18501152
"is every part of your body functionally identical to one another?
Or do you put gloves on your hands and shoes on your feet?
No, particular gifts belong naturally to certain members of the body"

true

in any case, your ideas arent really different from mainstream calvinism

>>18501129
Yeah, that's true.

People can make mistakes. Happens all the time. But the sacrament, as a vital operation of the church itself, is infallible.
Apostolic succession is not identifiable with a particular doctrine or apostolic teaching itself necessarily, though the apostolic tradition obviously speaks to it, but rather a holy act and blessing.
The sacraments cannot be thwarted by human iniquity, be it mental or moral weakness.

The power to administer them comes from the Holy Spirit through the apostles alone. Nobody else other than one in their line of volition can bestow this gift.

>>18501140
>on the subjective proposition that God has a monarch-like nature
Uh we literally call Christ King though

>>18501159
>The sacraments cannot be thwarted by human iniquity, be it mental or moral weakness.
Aren't they supposed to transform you over time as means of grace though i.e. you'll know a tree by its fruit

>>18501452
Yeah, they do. Grace is delivered through those means.
There's no contradiction there.

They're still effective at that even if the person administering them no longer really believes in God, or is in a state of mortal sin, for example.
Because it's not his personal faith or virtue which makes them spiritually effective. It's Jesus' faith, who works these things through his instruments. Ex opere operato, in persona Christi.

>>18502398
>They're still effective at that even if the person administering them no longer really believes in God, or is in a state of mortal sin, for example.
>Because it's not his personal faith or virtue which makes them spiritually effective. It's Jesus' faith, who works these things through his instruments. Ex opere operato, in persona Christi.
You missed my point I'm talking about the sacraments effecting an empirical change in the state of those receiving them

>>18502625
No, I didn't.
Your new choice in words, empirical, I'm not sure you know what that means in context.
Do you know what empiricism actually entails, and why you should distinguish this academic methodology from religious discernment?

The sacraments effect a real spiritual change in the people who receive them, regardless of whether or not these effects are empirically verifiable. You might as well object to the real presence of his body in the Eucharist, contra Jesus' own instituting word, on empirical grounds at this point.
Your ability to perceive is limited in time and space. Empiricism is inherently flawed, deduction is more highly esteemed than induction by anyone who knows enough about the topic.

Something can change without you being able to notice it consciously. It happens to you personally all the time actually.
And yet, the sacraments actually do affect a perceptable change in many on a regular basis. People grow in faith because of them, reorient their lives around it.

>>18500945
Wtf is a union of substance across different beings?

>>18500945
That’s not what Calvin taught.

>>18500953
Calvin would take issue with you posting an image of Jesus Christ, though

>>18501042
>If Calvin were right about the irresistibility of grace, which comes from the Holy Spirit, this would be impossible and Stephen would not have said it
They resist the Holy Spirit in the sense they reject the revelation of God, not in the sense that He works upon their hearts to effect their salvation and they frustrate His will.

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>>18501042
>Endless schism and confusion.
>Meanwhile in Rome

>>18502947
>The sacraments effect a real spiritual change in the people who receive them, regardless of whether or not these effects are empirically verifiable. You might as well object to the real presence of his body in the Eucharist, contra Jesus' own instituting word, on empirical grounds at this point.
>Your ability to perceive is limited in time and space. Empiricism is inherently flawed, deduction is more highly esteemed than induction by anyone who knows enough about the topic.
>Something can change without you being able to notice it consciously. It happens to you personally all the time actually.
>And yet, the sacraments actually do affect a perceptable change in many on a regular basis. People grow in faith because of them, reorient their lives around it.
Are you saying that the Nestorians have all of this too, then despite continuing in heresy for the past *1600 years?

>>18503333
So you say the revelation of God is not made through grace?

Resisting, even rejecting grace is absolutely possible.
Grace is a gift, not a demand or an imposition.
God's will must be understood in terms that include both active works and passive allowance.

The human will is derived from God's own. And aside from notable examples where the human will is overwritten in specific cases to serve a certain end, God in his majesty allows men to defy him. He does not generally compel every act of defiance, since that would obliterate obedience on it's fundamental semantic level. Cooperation in the works of God is necessary for the mission of the church.

>>18503339
Did the Nestorians stop laying hands on people in the solemn rite of ordination at any point?
Were they originally deprived of this manly apostolic blessing, as the counter churches are and do not deny?

No. The fact they were ever invited to an ecumenical council demonstrates a recognition that they had valid bishops.
Despite being objectively wrong about the natural person of Christ *intellectually*, they still have holy orders and the sacraments. Despite their manifest error, the power of the Holy Spirit remains.

Because apostolic succession is *not* derived from possession or human understanding of correct doctrine. Correct doctrine certainly is part of the apostolic *tradition*, but it isn't strictly necessary for valid sacraments.

This is why the Arian baptisms were not rebaptized by the church after the defeat of their error.
And why, due to the merciful intercession of St Athanasius contra Lucifer Cagliari who was one of his few allies during the crisis, Arian bishops retained their sees without undergoing reordination.
They had valid holy orders, despite their serious theological errors.

If the Arians, who committed to an error far more serious than Nestorius, retained their sacramental character, then clearly the Nestorians barring some critical lapse in form or execution do as well.