Christians killed Roman public works spending and diverted it to religious buildings. This directly led to the economic stagnation and eventual collapse of the Empire.
>>18506652They didn't. Ever since the early 3rd century, working on the local council was highly unpopular because it mandated that members spend money on public works and celebrations. They enjoyed selectively funding what they wanted to, churches did little more than take the place of traditional temples in this dynamic. Other public works were still funded and done so more, especially by Imperial munificence. This system of public funding was mandated by the state, local aristocrats were made to join the council before they could move into the imperial administration and continued until the end of the West (with the exception of Rome, which maintained a council which paid for all public works in the city until they were disbanded in the late 6th century), and until the 7th century in the East.
It’s Jesus’ fault the Roman government was corrupt
>>18506652YOU ARE SO FUCKING MORONIC.
OP reminds me of this
>>18506663As a matter of indisputable fact there was a huge reallocation of funds and talent to Christian works that generated absolutely nothing, whence prior those resources went to water supply, irrigation, sanitation, roads for trade, etc.If we consider any other era it is self-evident that those kinds of shifting priorities will have consequences which we saw in Rome with it's dwindling economy. But unfortunately Roman scolarship has been infested by christians and jews who've predictably enough basically just lied and made themselves out to be innocent bystanders, or even saintly victims of persecution, while, hiding the truth about their role as wreckers of Rome.
>>18506692>there was a huge reallocation of funds and talent to Christian workstotal ass pullhttps://books.openedition.org/pumi/35108They often kept records and at certain points during their construction there would have been only a dozen or so men working and at other points the construction became a sink for unemployed labor, a kind of "workfare" scheme when prices dropped, which also reduced the overall expense of the Cathedral. It was a large construction project, but the work was spread out over 50 to 200 years, so the actual impact on GDP was miniscule.
>>18506713>total ass pulllook at any list of the major architectural achievements from the 4th century onwards. It's absolutely dominated by basilicas and monasteries, while prior it was baths, roads, forums, aqueducts, theatres, etc
>>18506719just imagine if the money for this piece of shit had been invested in increasing the yield of Egypt
>>18506719>>18506723There were other causes then, since cathedrals were only a miniscule proportion of GDP as I've just proven.Also your view of the medieval world is skewed, they were not as backwards as you imagine.>bathsDo you believe the "africans taught europeans to bathe" meme?>forumsforum = plaza>aqueductsThey had these. There was less demand since windmills and watermills could be used to lift groundwater often at far less expense than building and maintaining a colossal channel. Incidentally the Romans did not have windmills and their watermills were far less efficient.>roadsLikewise they had these but there was less demand. Part of the reason was the introduction of new breeds of horses which could trot all day at a canter, another reason was the decentralized nature of the medieval world, few large cities, no need to march a legion across Europe.>theatresThis is not something economically productive so has no bearing on your argument.
>>18506672The church doesn't deserve any state funds at all, cope.
>>18506783>t. retardThe church has its own funds.
>>18506652On a scale of 1 to 10, how retarded are you, anon?
>>18506793Yes, funds that it only had by the state looting other institutions and giving all their wealth to the church.Anyone who identifies as Christian is unironically a traitor to their nation.
>>18506806We already know that you're retarded. No need to keep proving it.
>>18506818Shalom Moshe
>>18506652Rome died because the jew Justinian and his jewish whore wife imported gorillions of non whites in their attempt to genocide the children of God. Thankfully the children of God in what was western Rome were liberated by the Christian Goths.History doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme.
>>18506822...
>>18506824Yes, Christianity is spiritually Jewish. You still believe in Jewish myths like monotheism, the Hebrew Bible somehow being divinely-inspired, and of course hatred for all arts and culture.
>>18506831Fuck off, mongoloid.
>>18506818denounce talmud
>>18506723It's a beautiful building, but it's so much smaller in person. I felt underwhelmed. I felt the same way with the Colosseum.
>>18506775this, is decay
>>18506723>just imagine if the money for this piece of shit had been invested in increasing the yield of EgyptThat doesn't make any sense. What the fuck was he supposed to do? You can't increase agricultural yields by throwing money at it, the productive regions of Egypt had been under some development since the 4th dynasty, it was the most developed region in the world outside of small parts of Italy. How exactly would he 'increase the yield of Egypt'?
>>18506848What does the talmud have to do with any of this, mongoloid?
>>18506853Egyptian output shot through the roof after annexed by Rome, then collapsed during the Christianity-driven 3rd & 4th century instabilities and the antonine plague, but crucially it never recovered, because once Christianity got hold of the empire the decline was inevitable and irreversible
>>18506652But the wealthy elites of Rome were already diverting all possible workforce to work on their own estates rather than anything else, like upkeep or serving in the military.
>>18506862>>18506652Very curious to see your cope to this
>>18506862Nope, that only started happened under Christian rulers.
>>18506866Wrong. Next?
>>18506866>what was the third century crisis
>>18506853this happened specifically to finance Hagia Sofia
>>18506870>>what was the third century crisisa series of political instabilities in large part caused by the rapid growth of christianity
>>18506876Holy shit a retard. And the Grachii brothers?
>>18506876The eastern Romans did well for another millennium. Just admit you don't know shit and start studying
it all started going downhill when they started giving Roman citizenship to non-Romans, instead of crucifying any subjugated people who had such ideas.
>>18506880>did well>slow decay until succumbing to Islam although having the literal goose with the golden eggs (Egypt)>pissed it all away on churches and other christian bullshit
>>18506880>humiliation by Arabs, Slavs, Turks, and Latins is “doing well”
>>18506884As opposed to being humiliated by Parthians and Germanics? Or was that the fault of Christians too?
>>18506898Oh and the Huns and Goths
>>18506898>TurksYes the fall of west Rome was highly the fault of Christians. And the death of the Republic. Those two factors.
>>18506898The humiliation by Germanics didn’t happen until after the rise of Christianity and it was the Parthians being humiliated not the other way around.
Take a break anon. All those times your parents drug you to church when you didn't want to, it's okay to let that go.
This was my first time visiting /his/ and the very first thread I saw. Congratulations, OP, you have convinced me you're a colossal retard and the anons immediately BTFOing you prove this board will be well worth my time. Good job!
>>18506880>did wellA slow humiliating demise that took nearly 1,000 years is not doing "well"
>>18506910>that took nearly 1,000 yearsAnon? Do you think longevity is a mark of failure? If so, you should probably kill yourself now, eh?
>ctrl-f "retard">6 hitshearing the truth really upsets christians, dont it?
>>18506914How the hell do you get THAT from what I said? Kiss my ass dude
>>18506922From this part>1,000 years
>>18506904Never been to church nor do I have a reason. I also oppose Islam yet you don’t claim I’m “just mad about being dragged to a mosque as a child” (which I was never dragged to lmao).People who believe in lies and deceitful nonsense deserve harassment and that includes every single Christian.
>>18506874The ai doesn't even say that. Not to mention the edict made by Constantine was directed towards the Western Prefecture, there is little evidence for men being tied to their property in the East.
>>18506921>If people call me a retard, it means I must be right.
>>18506926>People who believe in lies and deceitful nonsense deserve harassment and that includes every single ChristianBecause only former Christians or the pathetic adult children of Christians whine as hard about Christianity as you do.Again, let that inner child rest, it's over, you're not being woken up Sunday mornings anymore
>>18506926>People who believe in lies and deceitful nonsense deserve harassmentIf you truly believe you haven't been deceived on anything, why don't you give us a rundown on your philosophy?
>>18506926>Never been to church>talks like an arrogant retard about it anyway Good Lord
>>18506929>if christians kvetch loudly and start crying about poor martyrs being eaten by lions then that nullifies the historical reality that christians destabilized and weakened the roman empire and ultimately caused its fall
>>18506953>start crying about poor martyrs being eaten by lionsThat's nowhere in this thread.
>>18506955yet it's the foundational christian lie about the 2 centuries when they were subordinating and destabilizing the roman empire
>>18506852>AIslop>using reddit as a sourceHow does any of that disprove my central point? The giant monuments you see are not representative of the entire economy. The cost of cathedrals was a tiny fraction of GDP, it barely affected economic growth.The "great divergence" and Europe's progress into the renaissance, sailing all over the world and industrial revolution took place during the apex of cathedral construction. Clearly it barely had any effect.
>>18506939All reality emanates from a single divine source called the Monad or “the One” which is ineffable and beyond human comprehension. All reality emanates from this source as follows—from the Monad emerges the Nous (the Divine Intellect), followed by the Psyche (the World Soul), and then finally the physical universe. The gods are all aspects or emanations of the Monad and function as intermediary principles or “Henads” between the Monad and the physical universe. They exist in a hierarchy which emanates from the Monad as follows—first the Hypercosmic gods who make Essence, Life, and Soul, the Demiurge who makes the physical universe, and then finally the Cosmic gods who make Being, Nature, and Matter. The gods are not anthropomorphic beings with a physical body of flesh and blood as traditionally depicted, but rather metaphysical spirits whose true forms transcend the physical universe. The anthropomorphic depictions of them are not what they actually look like, but they are useful representations of them. Compare this to how love, a thing which exists but is not a physical thing that can be weighed or measured, is often represented by a heart symbol. The only way the gods can be anthropomorphic would be by taking such an appearance in dreams or visions to easily communicate with us, therefore remaining non-physical.Traditional myths are not literal historical events, but rather allegories for deeper divine truths and when interpreted correctly, they contain profound, hidden wisdom. Thus having multiple different creation myths can be valid as they are allegories describing the same events in different terms.
>>18506938I also view Islam and Judaism as nonsense to be eradicated + I’ve never been to church so kindly fuck off.
>>18506652ah yes, the west went christian while the east remained pagan. or was it the germoids pouring in the west
>>18506852Your parents should have strangled you in your crib while they had the chance
>>18506975>I'm ignorant as fuck about that one thing, but don't worry, I'm ignorant as fuck about all of it!
>>18506682inquisition now counts as scientific exploration
>>18506970it's just a fact that Egypt never again attained the peak acreage of arable soil it had before Christianity, but it easily could have, given enough resources and effort, if Byzantium hadnt been busy elsewhere, like building a useless Hagia Sofia. They did it once before, so it was provably possible
>>18506973>chatgpt summary grim
>>18506985Oh so I see you’re a Muslim then.
>>18506980the east and west both decayed and ultimately succumbed, the difference in speed is proof of nothing and just a red herring appealed to by christcucks to confuse the issue
>>18507002>Only AI is capable of writing a simple paragraph
>>18506958>If I just pretend you said what I wanted to argue with, I can win.You're making a good case for Christianity by how stupidly those who oppose it behave.
>>18507008of course Christians think everything is a good argument for Christianity, that's the mindset of most believers. The topic here though is how Christians destabilized, subverted and ultimately overran Rome, and threw it into irreversible decline
>>18507006it’s full of emdashes and has the typical tone of an llm. i’ve also seen you copy paste this exact response in other threads. this isn’t one paragraph either it’s multiple. it’s clear english isn’t your native language and you got an AI to read this for you. which is just a basic description of what the Monad is and how the “gods” are not anthropomorphic beings and the stories of ancient myth were just allegories, things pagans did not believe btw. If you hate Christianity but still believe in the transcendent, just call yourself a Neo-Platonist and stop this strange pretending to be a Hellene from 500 BC.
>>18507008these threads aren’t for us they’re for him. it’s the only thing he has in life. i’ve seen variations of this exact thread multiple times. it’s an italian neopagan larper that spends his days talking about how brown, jewish, cucked and gay Christianity is and how it ruined everything in the world and the glorious pagan past. it’s as stupid as it sounds. i hope he finds peace.
>>18507033Em dashes predate AI and I’ve used them long before AI ever existed. Kindly fuck off Porphyry of Tyre literally wrote a whole-ass treatise on how this one passage from the Odyssey about cave nymphs was an allegory for the descent of the soul. Egyptian priesthoods also viewed the Osiris myth as an allegory for order against chaos. Kindly fuck off with the claim that ancient pagans never allegorized myths or that philosophers were somehow a minority.
I think that someone summoned the butthurt christian
>>18506903>the Parthians being humiliated not the other way around.Lol, alright Crassus
>>18506989You are just repeating your point which I disproved. There is no connection between cathedral building and the alleged reduction in "acreage" in Egypt or agricultural productivity in general, which you have not provided proof of. We can see climate change reduced Nile inundation during the late classical period and dark ages which is overwhelmingly the explanation. The lower the inundation, the less fields can be irrigated and no amount of public works can increase rainfall. It is worth noting the pagans actually believed their temples could raise the level of the Nile and Egypt invested in some of the most colossal monuments.https://www.academia.edu/145888845/_Reconstructing_the_Nile_Climate_Agriculture_and_Socio_Economic_Change_in_Roman_Egypt_Journal_of_Ancient_History_13_2_1_56You said earlier to someone else.>People who believe in lies and deceitful nonsense deserve harassment and that includes every single Christian.If you're going to claim to be more logical and less egotistical than Christians, then you should put aside your ego, see the logic in what I am saying and admit you are wrong on this point, otherwise you are lying and deceitful.But you won't. Just watch.
>>18506921Don't have to be a Christian to spot a retarded third worlder
>>18507004cringest and copest. everything eventually decays and succumbs, including paganism
>>18507215>There is no connection between cathedral building and the alleged reduction in "acreage" in EgyptYeah there is the pretty fucking obvious connection that if Byzantium had been less concerned with building Hagia Sofia and more with preventing the desertification of the Faiyum Oasis then they would have been in a better place and wouldnt had lost Egypt to the muslimsEven a retard like you ought to be able to follow that line of reasoning now that I spoonfed you
>>18507290what exactly is even the christcuck argument supposed to be? "The church of Peter fell first so clearly christianity is blameless". It makes no fucking sense and I bet no christcuk will be able to offer a coherent argument in this thread
>>18507305So you're saying if the Haiga Sofia was never built, The Roman Empire would never ever lose Egypt? That is what I am getting at? It NEVER would lose land?
>>18507313Because your argument of how Rome would still exist if it never turned to Christianity is fucking retarded.
>>18507352Yeah I'm saying if Byzantium concerned itself less with pleasing YHVE and preparing for the next life, and more with keeping its golden goose in good shape, then things might have turned out differently. I mean you can argue people at the time were too retarded to understand that having these additional incomes was a good thing or that just raising taxes and increasing repression risked biting them in the ass, but that is kind of refuted by the fact that immediately when Rome gained control of Egypt 30 BCE they invested crazy and fixed the infrastructure increased economic efficiency etc, so something was lost between then and Byzantium, and what caused it isnt rocket science. Byzantium had other priorities: YHVE.
>>18507356Any claim predicting the future would be retarded. An argument to the effect that "X caused the fall of the Roman Empire" does not imply "barring X the Roman Empire would have existed for eternity". Hope that cleared things up.
>>18506652>Christians killedMore like antichrists claiming to be Christians killed.
Romans destroyed the Celtic druids. Fuck them, they got everything coming to them and more. Proto globohomo dress wearing fags
>>18507722I'm still seething about Louis the Pious destroying his dad's favorite book about pagan Germanic (and probably some Celtic) heroes. I want to be a Frankaboo so bad but that fanatic passive-aggressive fag really rustles my jimmies. This, what was done to the Druidic tradition and what Fourmont did to ancient Sparta were like the three great destructive sins of European history. There are probably some equally bad things but those are the ones I know of where the irreversible loss of wisdom and history is just agonizing.
>>18507748>irreversible loss of wisdomLol. Lmao even>and historySure.
>>18507373>when Rome gained control of Egypt 30 BCE they invested crazy and fixed the infrastructure increased economic efficiency etcSource on this?
>>18506652>Christians killed Roman public works spending and diverted it to religious buildings.It's more like the imperial system finally managed to cap upward mobility, so the political incentives for the rich to spend on public works disappeared.In the West, the economy tanked hard, and by the point money was available again, everything had fallen to ruins while real estate investment had moved on to city founding and land improvement.
I'm not sure economic stagnation in Rome, insofar as it happened, had much to do with the fall of Rome in the first place. The causes seem far more political than economic, with economic stagnation if anything a consequence of political fragmentation, and insofar as they're influenced by economics surely growth outside the empire played a big role in reducing Rome's relative power.And while late Rome may not have adequately funded public works, they still funded the army.
this is such a retarded argument considering the largest temples literally ever built were under the pagan emperors
>>18508552Difference is those actually provided value.
>>18508555yeah, they served buffet
