Are there parallels to the conflictual relationship between Dasa and Arya in other Indo-European cultures? And what is the consensus on its meaning? Wikipedia isn't very helpful.
>>18509316I found an extremely useful website called "VedaWeb." Its biggest advantage is the open access for the linguistic study of ancient Indo-Aryan textsBesides the corpus, morphologically, metrically, and lexically, etc., there are several translations from various authors, so it might be useful to search here. Here's what I found here;
>>18509323https://vedaweb.uni-koeln.de/texts/rv/browse/66695ac77dbde8fe26789e36So, I'm inclined to credit the translations as being enemies and/or slaves of the Indo-Aryans. Parpola and Witzel have a different view, however. And about your question, I don't think you're familiar with a direct parallel. The closest I can think of is perhaps the story of the Milesians. Eber and Eremon land in Ireland and defeat the Tuatha Dé Danann at Tailte, killing their kings and queens. The survivors hide in hills and caves, giving rise to fairy legends. Eber takes the South and Eremon the North of the island. A year later, a dispute between the wives over hills, including Tara, leads to war. Eber is defeated and Eremon becomes supreme king of ireland.
>>18509334>>18509323thanks. so, Tuatha De Danann were "Dasas"?
>>18509347Not exactly. It doesn't fit perfectly; perhaps it's simply an ancient archetype? But it seems they were equated with the pre-Indo-European inhabitants who built the megaliths. And remember that in Ireland and Great Britain, the genetic overlap was the greatest ever recorded in Europe, not just reflected in haplogroups with the arrival of the bell beakers. Obviously, the "Milesian" invasion also occurred after 1000 BC, but I presume some pre-existing stories in Ireland were incorporated into the Milesian story.
>>18509352More recently a study suggested there was 92-100% genetic replacement. There is no minimum amount of British farmer admix because they can't distinguish it from continental farmer admix.It would be pretty wild if every single last one went extinct.
>>18509357Yes, This population overlap was so significant that the ancestry of the EEF in the Bell Beaker present in Great Britain, is not insular, but continental. In any case, this is not the main theme of the original publication. But it was really massive. Apparently, the increase in EEF ancestry was due to the continental Celts.. I've seen some models on qpAdm of ancient Scots with more than 55% steppe. Pretty crazy.
>>18509334>>18509323I found a very interesting figure in the RV, "Dasyave-vr̥ika," he is described as a hero who led victories against the Dasyus in hymns 8.95, 8.99 and 8.100Still Regarding what Dasa meant, there are clear examples in the hymns of how they were treated as servants/slaves. See the related photo. I believe it's quite obvious that the enemies of a group can later become their slaves.https://vedaweb.uni-koeln.de/texts/rv/browse/66695ac77dbde8fe2678b031
>>18509316weren't the Indo Europeans who invaded India Hapas due to crossing through central asia?
>>18509435Back then central asians were browns (BMAC).
>>18509441>back thengood morning chang
>>18509449he's right though.
>>18509435No, why do you keep insisting on this in every thread if it's been explained to you several times?
>>18509459I don't frequent these threads but I am glad you do it often enough tat you recognize people
>>18509316Germanic Thralls and Vedic Dasas
>>18509405Given the cultic interest in wolves, I think we can be certain that the pairing of an enemy people/tribe with Wolf was an ancient Indo-European naming convention. PIE: (EEF tribe?) + *wĺ̥kʷos.
>>18509476What?
>>18509483NTA but Both originally referred to unfree laborers, captives of war, or subordinate classes within ancient tribal structures.>>18509480Interesting theory. I hadn't thought of that.
Not really.Helots could be considered a parallel, but they arguably had it worse.
Mayrhofer, M. (1986–2001). Etymologisches Wörterbuch des Altindoarischen (Vols. 1–3). Carl Winter Universitätsverlag.
>>18509527Wrong
>>18509533Are you telling me the humble Sanskrit scholar was WRONG?Well, what are you going to do about it? It's safe to say he won.
>>18509527I find it interesting that your article cites Parpola. he, as well as Witzel, appeals to the hypothesis that "Dasa" represents tribes from Central Asia, which has led some to relate them to nomadic Dahae (or Daha) tribes. But even considering the nuances of when and where the RV was originally composed, Dasas represent conquered and enslaved peoples when they were in India.>>18509405Aryavarta, at least, extends to a geographically defined region, "From the Himalayas to the Vindhyas".
>>18509495>but Both originally referred to unfree laborers, captives of war, or subordinate classes within ancient tribal structures.Doesn't make any sense
>>18509553Why do you say that? As I showed above, there are verses in the RV that are extremely clear where the Dasas are treated as servants and enemies>>18509405>>18509323 the Scandinavian "Thrall" were also servants and were generally captured by Vikings during raids.Obviously, I'm saying that both are etymologically related, but OP asked if there were parallels, and we have something approximate.
>>18509552>DahaeI don't find any particular reason to connect this family of ethnonyms to Skt ⟨dāsá-⟩ "slave" (< PIE *dosó-) considering how weird that would be semantically. Instead, I would rather connect the ethnonyms to words like Hittite ⟨daššu-⟩ "strong" and AG δασύς so Dahae would reflect PIE *dn̩s- with a syllabic nasal that became PII *a in *das-
>>18509567Yes, I know, but unfortunately that explanation has become common knowledge. Even so, it wouldn't make sense, since the "Dahae" were nomadic tribes of the ancient world and had no contact with the Vedic peoples.I was curious about the reconstruction of the PIE *dosó- that you presented.
>>18509566I don't deny that Dasa were slaves, but I'm saying that "dasa" is probably a Piir innovation I don't see examples outside of Iranian. Anyway were the feet of the dasa women like? Were they delicate?
>>18509585Related to "Dacians"
>>18509583The word itself is unlikely to be a PII innovation since it finds a cognate in Ancient Greek:δοῦλος "slave" < Myc ⟪do-e-ro⟫ */dohelos/
>>18509598I'm not so sure. This study proposes a new etymology for Greek δοῦλος from hypothetical Canaanite *dōʔēl-u/-a(t).https://www.academia.edu/42489418/Greek_DOULOSNear Eastern terminology on the Greek concept of servitude Indo-Europeans were not stratified, nor did they have specializations or a division of labor. They were primitive. And what about the feet? What were they like?
>>18509501>>18509598
>>18509347> Tuatha De DanannWere neolithic farmers, commonly referred to as Early European Farmers (EEF) originating from Anatolia. They were NOT the Proto Indo European speaking Bell Beaker culture.They spread out a couple of thousand years before the Yamnaya migrations began.They were technically very advanced for their time. Earliest copper miners and users. Earliest wheel / carts. agriculture, animal husbandry, glazed pottery, multi-storey buildings, large cities (tens of thousands of inhabitants) half a millenium before Mesopotamia, long distance trade networks, megalith builders. highly organised society. And they were short, with an average male height of around ~160cm.Many of the "proto indo european" myths are from their culture, rather than the steppe herders.
>>18509347Yes
>>18509608I've looked over this before and it strikes me as ad hoc since none of the actually attested forms can match δοῦλος through regular sound correspondences. The hypothetical Canaanite word would be expected to borrowed as either a u-stem or t-stem in Greek. Rosół (2013) does not accept Blažek's idea for similar reasons. See pic.Blažek's specialty is to try to find etymologies that connect separate language families, and he probably saw an opportunity in this word since it is usually not recognized to have many cognates within Indo-European. However, it is possible to find more words:Old Irish ⟨doír⟩ "serf" < do- + fer where do- is from *dososhttps://dil.ie/17924Latin ⟨servus⟩ "slave, serf" < *(d)seru̯os < *dseu̯r+os (with zero-grade *ds- of *dos- and metathesis similar to Latin ⟨nervus⟩ < *(s)nēu̯ros)Rosół, R. (2013). Frühe semitische Lehnwörter im Griechischen [Early Semitic loanwords in Greek]. Peter Lang Academic Research.
>>18509759And in Germanic there isON ⟨þjónn⟩ "servant, attendant"Gothic ⟨þius⟩ "servant"Which shows the PG stems *þeu̯an-/þeu̯a- once existed. *þeu̯an- and Lat ⟨servus⟩ provide evidence of a ur/n heteroclitic stem.There was a reduction of the PIE cluster:*ds- > PG *þ-*ds- > Lat ⟨s-⟩
>>18509608>Canaanite *dōʔēl-u/-a(t).One final hurdle for this etymology is that it is not safe to assume the *ō and *ē would contract in Ancient Greek without another example. It's not clear which vowels Canaanite *ō and *ē would become in AG but ἠώς makes it pretty clear that η and ω do not contract in any dialecthttps://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%A0%CF%8E%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
>>18509805>>18509780>>18509759NTAThis is material that I personally wasn't familiar with; I'd like to read it more carefully...
>>18509759What are the chances of the caste system being corded ware?
>>18509759Dasa has nothing to do with slave
>>18509759But Indo-Europeans were not stratified at all nor did they have specializations or a division of labor.
>>18509892>>18509890You're correct sorry guys
>>18509890>>18509892>>18510331You lost
Skt ⟨dā́sa-, dāsá-⟩ and Myc */dohelos/ imply a PIE root √des-, but this is still a bit suspicious because there are very few words derived from this root. Where did these words come from? Are they just obscure? I have an idea.There was an unusual phonological repair process in PIE where an entire root would metathesize:C1e(R)C2 > C2e(R)C1This is seen in words like *bʰudʰmḗn from the root *dʰeu̯bʰ- ~ *dʰubʰ- where the methathesis must have occurred in order to avoid the cluster *-bʰm- or in Proto-Germanic *hamaraz and Proto-Balto-Slavic *kā́ˀmō which are from PIE *h2éḱmō, but *h2eḱ- has metathesized to *ḱeh2- most likely because the zero-grade form of the root had a fricative-stop sequence, or because the laryngeal would be lost in *h2ḱ- in a Corded Ware language, or both.Could a word like *dóso- with root √des- actually be from an earlier root √sed- "to sit"? What would cause this? I've been talking about a heteroclitic noun which, at a certain stage, should have looked something like*dés-u̯r̩*ds-u̯én- [ts-u̯én-]Evidence of a metathesized version of this heteroclitic can be found in ἱδρύω "to sit, to settle (people)" and ἕδρα "seat" reflecting *séd-ru from séd-u̯r̩The key to motivating this metathesis is in the sequence *sdu̯ *[stu̯] but this requires an explanation seeing that PIE seems quite tolerant of /s/-stop sequences, especially word initially. However, Hackstein (2023) implies most or all of these /s/-stop sequences are actually heteromorphemic and were originally even heterosyllabic. This is an important distinction, so something like the infamous "s-mobile" is not part of roots. The basic typological reason the metathesis would occur is something called the "sonority sequencing principle".Hackstein, O. (2023). When words coalesce II: Preverb incorporation in Indo-European. Indo-European Linguistics, 11(1), 1-40.
>>18510504Is the theory of a metathesis *sed- > *des- useful? Does it explain any peculiarities of the root *des- or its semantics?Let's have.a look at a word in Old Avestan:⟨dax́iiu-⟩ (stem) ~ ⟨dax́iiə̄uš⟩ (gen.sg) "land, country".⟨dax́iiu-⟩ is actually a derivative of PII *dási̯u- and is related to Vedic ⟨dasyu-⟩ "enemy". How are the senses "land, country" and "enemy" even related? Usually this is explained as a development from "land (of the foreigners)". That theory is kind of awkward, like forcing a square peg into a round hole.If instead ⟨dasyu-⟩ originally referred to settled people and ⟨dax́iiu-⟩ to settlements, the semantics seem much more natural.Indeed, the contrast between an Aryan and dā́sa makes even more sense. The Aryan was a mobile pastoralist and the dā́sa was a sedentary person or serf, in other words, a farmer. A dā́sa is settled (PIE *sed-) on the land. This explains the ethnic contrast.
>>18510504>but this is still a bit suspiciouAka fake. Indo-Europeans were not stratified at all nor did they have specializations or a division of labor
>>18510582you lost
>>18510541>>18510504Interesting theory. But I think it's useful to mention how in the RV (Roman Revelation) the use of Dasa or Dasyu is sometimes somewhat interchangeable, b
>>18510664>>18510541>>18510504but I looked up some verses to see if Dasyu could be used to refer to forts or settlements and Dasa to the inhabitants of these settlements, and that's what I found. I did not find extensive references specifically addressing the settlements of the Dasas. However, among the verses I examined, the allegory of "burning the Dasyu" occurs at least three times, which may allude to settlements?? given that the destruction of settlements by fire was a common practice historically. Nevertheless, other verses state that Indra pierced the vital organs of the Dasyu collectively. The most relevant passage I identified was the following:
>>18510668
>>18509316Dionysus was believed by the Ancient Greeks to have waged a war against India in the late Bronze Age (specifically sometime between the 15th to 13th century BC). Interestingly this war’s dating corresponds with Indo-Aryan conquest of India and there’s a certain Hindu god that the Greeks equated with Dionysus, Shiva, who was literally referred to in Greek accounts of India as the “Indian Dionysus.” Said Ancient Greek accounts of India also claim that the worship of “Dionysus” (I.E. Shiva) spread to India due to his conquest of the subcontinent.
>>18510670This one is very interestingBut I liked your theory. RV mentions the destruction of forts, and there are quite a few verses about it.>>18510582We're having a discussion here, participate or remain silent.
>>18510671>ShivaNon-Indo-European smurf deity This Indian Smurf isn't mentioned in the RV, and when the Greeks came into contact with the Indians, other traditions already dominated India, and they were no longer worshippers of Indra or Aryan gods.
>>18510677>This Indian Smurf isn't mentioned in the RV,Yes he is. He went by the name 'Rudra' in the RV. Shiva simply means masculine power.
>>18510664Yes, they are related words. Same root.>>18510674>>18510670>>18510668>I looked up some verses to see if Dasyu could be used to refer to forts or settlements and Dasa to the inhabitants of these settlements,It might be interesting to see if you can learn anything with the help of a new interpretation, but to be clear OAv ⟨dax́iiu-⟩ and Ved ⟨dásyu-⟩ are not __exactly__ the same word. One stands in a derivational relationship with the other.⟨dásyu-⟩ is from the PII u-stem *dás-i̯-u-⟨dax́iiu-⟩ is an au-stem derivative of this same u-stem, reflecting PII *dás-i̯-āu̯-They are cognate, but I should have clarified more. If you notice anything else I will still be interested.
>>18510829
>>18510846
>>18510705No. Rudra is not an avatar of the magical Smurf, your Shiva does not appear in the RV, and Hundism is not synonymous with Vedism.
>>18509334>>18509316
>>18510829>the help of a new interpretation, but to be clear OAv ⟨dax́iiu-⟩ and Ved ⟨dásyu-⟩ are not __exactly__ the same wordThis interpretation may be applicable to the Iranians of Central Asia. However, in the case of India, if the theory is valid, they may have been absorbed and rendered interchangeable. It remains, nonetheless, an interesting point to consider. The Dasas evidently possessed fortified settlements, as indicated above. My hypothesis is that the passages describing Indra’s destruction of forts could also refer to certain strongholds in Central Asia, one of which has been identified by archaeologists. According to Parpola, the fortified citadel-palace destroyed by Indra was located south of the Amu Darya River in the Jozjan Province of northern Afghanistan. It featured a layout of three concentric walls, or _tripura_. Contemporary Indologists have identified this Dasa fort with the site of Dashly-3 But again, it starts from the strange premise of Daha, Dahae, Dahyu.
>>18511162**Dasa fort with the site of Dashly-3 But again, it starts from the strange premise of Daha, Dahae, Dahyu are related*
>>18511162Parpola is a leftist tard
>>18511180Not a fan to the hypothesis that the Dasas were merely peoples from Central Asia or "Iranians." The principal reason is that the Rigveda draws a clear distinction between Aryans and Dasyus as separate categories. This is evident when deities are invoked in conflicts against both Aryan and Dasa adversaries. If "Aryan" were to denote simply a worshipper, it would be inconsistent for the gods to assist in their defeat. Furthermore, as noted by the anon above, the proposed connection with the Dahae remains tenuous.
>>18510854>>18510829Sorry, i don't understand
>>18511131Very Indo-European
>>18511184>the proposed connection with the Dahae remains tenuousYeah, I don't find it very appealing to have ⟨daha-⟩ "man, male" mixed up in all of this. This word seems more comparable to Hittite ⟨daššu-⟩ "strong" < PIE *dens-u-. A lot of homophones were created at the Proto-Indo-Iranian stage.
>>18511202Exactly
>>18509835The King, deriving sovereignty from his divine lineage & symbolic marriage to the land, rules over the tuath: free (Aire) persons organized into 3 general castes, warrior, priest-poet and husbandman.
>>18511220No. Ireland was matrilineal. Indians were patriarchal
>>18511188Basically, Europeans are the Dasas and Indians are the real aryans
>>18511131I hope you're doing well Mr. O
>>18511296Is it really him?
>>18510541>Vedic ⟨dasyu-⟩ "enemy">If instead ⟨dasyu-⟩ originally referred to settled people and ⟨dax́iiu-⟩ to settlements,If this theory is true, the interesting takeaway from this is that to the Aryans, sedentary people became synonymous with enemies. When they were still nomads, it's hard to imagine they wouldn't be acutely aware of the stark contrast in living styles. The non-Aryan sits in one place without even migrating to summer and winter pastures.
