So there is an almost universal gender non confirming minority found in cultures of this time. I notice the researchers suggest it is matriarchal and that yamnaya and steppe peoples were patriarchal yet they also suggest these are modern constructs. We see a synthesis of both in various peoples of the time after steppe expansion. Is any of this in dispute?
>>18511998>gender>nonconforming>minorityProve that any of those concepts existed as such in the minds of the people you're projecting leftroon psychosis on.
>>18512010The research is arguing exactly that. None of these terms existed and their understanding of such things was far more liberal which is why we see a sudden appearance of it in the first authored writing about Ishtar and then across the earth. If it wasnt implicit we would not see it appear suddenly.
>>18511998kek, what is this thread even about?
>>18512035I thought this was history and humanities? I am trying to understand Neolithic behaviors. Harvard found hunter gatherers were positively selecting for autism and that it is a by-product of neocortex development. Various models find hunter gatherers selected for ADHD including genomic study on 20k w/35k controls. HARs are highly adaptable parts of our genome most of them in the brain and are associated with autism. Obviously these two things are associated with non conforming behaviors today. The idea that abstract symbology in pre history was associated with these traits is gaining traction and substantiated by modern studies on such individuals being over represented in the liberal arts.
>>18511998Neolithic matriarchy was a nonsensical theorem, from what we know now they were a particularly vicious bunch who practised mass killings and sometimes even cannibalism, and it's logical to assume that like Baal and Moloch-worshipping Middle Easterners whose cultural practises match theirs, they were patriarchal.
>>18512073I agree it is wrong but can you show me examples of them being vicious? We still have not found weapons at Vinca sites.
>>18512082We don't need to find weapons because region was neolithic farmer at that point so no one else could have done the killings. The alternative hypothesis was that the killings were done by WHG murderhobo tribes hiding in the mountains but there's no evidence of such a population existing.
>>18512088What killings? I dont hold the position they were particularly peaceful but I have not heard of what you are suggesting.
>>18512090https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talheim_Death_Pit
>>18512024>their understanding of such things was far more liberalAgain, to claim that they had "a liberal understanding of such things" you first have to prove this framework is applicable at all. They may have had a different structure of norms rooted in sexual dimorphism and it may have been every bit as rigid, but the symptoms wouldn't be recognizable to those who can't help looking at it through the Western gender norms they supposedly want to rid society of.
>>18512092There's another two sites at least from them. It looks like the LPK were particularly violent and repeatedly massacred entire settlements. They are calling it systemic execution men over represented and mostly killed by blow to the back of the head. Herxheim shows cannibalism. I had not learned about this particular culture. The massacre sites show some victims were not local and young women under represented. Serious torture too. Looks like men raiding opposition villages for women and food.
>>18512010Being a troon is a medical diagnosis, it's a legitimate mental illness brought on by an abnormal brain. Therefore troons have always existed as abnormalities in births have always existed.
>>18512109>Therefore troons have always existed as abnormalities in births have always existed.Proof?
>>18512095>They may have had a different structure of norms rooted in sexual dimorphism and it may have been every bit as rigidI agree with you and they do seem to exhibit this. With jobs, diets and burial rites being very specific to sexual dimorphism. What I find interesting is the 2-10% in each that show non conforming behaviors such as the people buried with animal products. I am not projecting my own beliefs as people have suggested I am being objective as possible but gender comes up here because in that group of non conformers we have women with life styles, shown via bones, diets and rites that were distinctively male, and vice versa.So in trying to learn about them and what they believed and how they behaved this comes up naturally as burials were clearly important to them and mostly followed strict rules. I have noticed bias in some of the research.
>>18512125>2-10% in each that show non conforming behaviorsExplain how you can judge anything to be a "non-conforming" behavior when you have no way to know the nuances of a culture.>in that group of non conformers we have women with life styles, shown via bones, diets and rites that were distinctively male, and vice versa.How do you know diet was part of their idea of the essential difference between men and women?
>>18512133Both questions have the same answer. They look at the majority of behaviors of the people over time which defines the culture and then there are a minority of individuals that do not conform to the culture despite being apart of it. We can quite accurately detect what people ate now.
>>18512142>They look at the majority of behaviors of the people over time which defines the culture Exceptional behaviors define a culture.>and then there are a minority of individuals that do not conform to the culture You have no evidence of this happening for reasons already explained to you twice.
>>18512092>all of the Neolithic mass killing and torture sites are in Europe, mostly Germany Hmm. Makes you think
>>18512145I'm unconvinced of your position. You would need to counter the established sex dimorphism in their burial rites and lifestyles then establish an explanation for the minority cases.
Remembering:EEF was far more advanced than the Indo-Europeans in practically every aspect, and many of the things considered "inventions of the Steppe" are actually an adaptation of already existing EEF concepts... Their pursuit of metallurgy was definitely important
>>18512155They seemingly started it all
>>18512154>You would need to counter the established sex dimorphism in their burial rites and lifestyles then establish an explanation for the minority cases.I don't have to do anything at all. It's not my problem. You're the one inventing "nonconformists" so you're the one who has to do all of that, otherwise your leftranny projection is a nonstarter.
globular amphora culture were so warlike that they conquered yamnaya territory and migrated into their steppe lands in moldavia 3: They conquered the already indo European balkans and then let themselves be acculturated by the native baden cultureIn fact, the Corded Pottery Culture failed to defeat the GAC. They coexisted. There was a eugenic combination of the most innovative and marginalized pioneers of the steppes with the most warlike and nomadic farmers, which led them to conquer Eurasia and surpass their Yamnaya brothers. And they were all Sardinians, by the way. Make Europe Sardinian again and say no to CHG mulattoes.
>>18512163>manlet revolutionDon't think so chum.
>>18512165You lost
>>18512166Imagine being a tiny little bit of a man. You wake up in the morning and throw back the napkin blanket from your matchbox bed. You almost roll off and fall to your death. Feel around for the ladder with your rice sized toe. There it is. You climb down. Now you see an ant. The giant brute lumbering toward you. The smell of tiny man meat intoxicating the insect. You run, or more like you hop, towards the safety of a small crack in the wall not even the ant can fit in. Take a moment to rejoice and let your eyes adjust to the darkness. You're so small you can see every individual ray of light. Hungry from your morning adventure you decide to eat. Luckily a feast of atoms and other subatomic particles lay before you. You eat barely a third of a neutron and you're stuffed. That's when you notice you've accidentally begun to fall through the very fabric of existence. You grasp out but everything is too big to hold onto. You fall into the abyss.
>>18512171I m not a man lol
>>18512181Yawn baw.
>>18512161Ok. You would know that biological sex is determined with collaborative bone evidence with a minority indeterminate. The burial rites for men and women were distinctly different and the bones tell the lifestyle lived with support from burial goods. They had societal behaviors based on sex dimorphism typical male lifestyle lead to bone damage from the repetitive work like heavy tool use and then they buried them with the tool. They had gendered burial positions and other male/female specific items given at burial outside of utility that changed over time as well as shamanistic ones. Therefore sexual binary conscious or otherwise established social norms for work, diet and behavior in many if not all of these cultures. There is a widespread 2-10% non conforming group that is not specifically gendered or related to sex and is a separate group probably depicted in asexual figurines and who then appear in writing as it becomes widespread. Obviously a lot of the research biases into focus on gender differences specifically. It is however strange that explicit transvestite behavior is found in the mythology of so many of the indo european sky god type cultures What do you contest here?
The LBK were fucked up.Herxhelm, Germany>450-1000 fire modified and cut remains of people from at least 8 geographically distinct regions up to 500km away >systematic processing of bodies for cannibalism skulls used as vessels>may have occurred over a period of 50 years
>>18512082Herxheim, talheim. Mass graves from ritualistic killing, cannibalism. I suppose that doesn’t necessarily rule out a matriarchal order, but I don’t think any academic has ever claimed they were matriarchal apart from Gimbutas
Anatolian farmers were matrilocal, at least some of them. For European farmers there's no evidence of matrilocality, let alone matriarchy. Basically most studies confirmed Y-DNA bottlenecks with female exogamy. Monumental graves had mostly males buried inside, said males were often related while females were outsiders (wives from other tribes, either kidnapped or exchanged). This is true for both G2a/H2 farmers and the I2 ones.
>>18512236>There is a widespread 2-10% non conforming groupNo, there is 2-10% evidence you can't account for with a crude model of what are clearly cultures with strict "gender norms" per your own admission. Any non-conformance is with respect to babby's simplistic reconstruction of a culture, not with respect to the actual culture. It's literally just a Tranny Of The Gaps fallacy.
>>18512319I don't agree with the matriarchal distinction some of the researchers are pushing. The LBK appeared to implode into violence at around the same time they collapsed. With four massacre sites identified. It looks like a mixture of over expansion and population with sudden crop failures. Their society was based around ownership of inherited land with established native men breeding with women of different geographic areas.
>>18512236>>18512348For example, go ahead and prove that the women whose skeletons show evidence of a "male lifestyle" aren't that way as a result of being ostracized and excluded for some social transgression, forcing them into a harsher life of fending mostly for themselves.
>>18512348We can account for them. They appear established in the earliest writing.
>>18512356Why would ostracised and excluded individuals get burial rites and be accepted back into the community at death? That is a contradiction. In some cases such in Hungary a women was placed with elite hunters with the same tools. With 13 men. Such things appear all over the place.
>>18512361>We can account for them.You've already conceded otherwise by asserting some fictional non-conformance.>Why would ostracised and excluded individuals get burial rites and be accepted back into the community at death?You're just mashing together every piece of "evidence" for your tranny prehistory narrative.> in Hungary a women was placed with elite hunters with the same tools. With 13 menAnd?
>>18512384Your point on exclusion requires evidence that you cannot provide and it has to contend with a lot of counter evidence. It isn't a viable position. You are applying modern ideas to neolithic people by suggesting they are trannys.
>>18512024Academics need to be slaughtered
>>18512404>Your point on exclusion requires evidence that you cannot provideIt's your beliefs about non-comfortance that require evidence, which you can't provide pretty much by definition. I'm just suggesting plausible alternatives to your baseless assertions, to demonstrate that there is no reason to accept them beyond ideological presuppositions. Did every female skeleton with signs of "male labor" on it receive a "honorary" burial with men or did you just cherrypick?But let's take your Hungarian woman, just for the sake of argument. Suppose she really was a part of the boy gang. How do you conclude it's an example of "non-conformance"? There may have been a hundred things women weren't allowed to do, but a prohibition on hunting evidently wasn't one of them, at least as far as the men were concerned. Maybe not having to hunt was actually a privilege afforded to the women by that culture, not a restriction. For all you know, your hunter woman may have offended the other women by failing to conform to their norms, to end up having to tail the men instead. You don't know how that culture worked.You just take something that doesn't conform the THEORY of a culture based on what's normal in terms of archeological findings and fallaciously conclude it's "abnormal" in a normative sense and fails to conform to the actual culture.
>>18512423My assertions are grounded in the most recent archaeology. The conformity of the LBK as an example is unique because it stretched for 2000km+ with the same burial rites, social status markers and lengthy paternal lineages. We know what the tools were used for and it was strict and sex based. It isn't just 'signs of labour' as the social evidence must be collaborative. On your second paragraph we only know what we have found and so far we have not found exclusion in the neolithic anywhere. You could argue the burial in the linear pottery culture was exclusive.When you say this;>Maybe not having to hunt was actually a privilege afforded to the women by that culture, not a restriction. For all you know, your hunter woman may have offended the other women by failing to conformYou very clearly hold the presupposition that I am assigning negative or positive attributes to these behaviors through a modern lens while accusing me of doing it which I am not doing and I have explicitly stated that. Why are you doing it?
Perhaps not the peoples of EEF, but the Neolithic anatocucklians were indeed matriarchal. Furthermore, the peoples of EEF were far more violent than the Indo-Europeans. In almost 3000 years, we find no evidence of massacre in Indo-European contexts. Literally none. Meanwhile, the farmers were killing everyone... and were more sexist than steppe bros. GAC, defeated the Yamnaya in the Balkans and prevented the expansion of the CWC into poland.We should stop coping about the le weak farmer versus the le heroic steppe. We're not in the 70s anymore. Grow up, you idiots. The peoples of EEF literally civilized Europe since the Baden culture, which had wagons, and their southern cousins were already working with metal on a large scale. And the steppe foids looked like literal troons not even joking btw
>>18512461schizoid feminist
>>18512461>My assertions are grounded in the most recent archaeologyThey're grounded in nothing. All you can archeologically establish is that sometimes women did things or ended up in situations normally associated with men, yet people didn't spazz out about it. You can truthfully make the same statement about Medieval Europe, yet no one supposes it had a tolerant culture towards gender-bending queers - doing the wrong opposite-sex thing in the wrong context would have landed a woman with witchcraft accusations. So to understand the exceptions that prove the rule you need to know the nuances of a culture.To talk about "nonconformism" at all requires a very specific dynamic with multiple preconditions:1. There must exist proper gender norms, i.e a culture with sex-based duties and restrictions, not just things that are statistically normal for men and women to do2. Most people must take gender norms seriously4. Some people must intentionally and self-consciously violate those norms5. They must be tolerated for some reasonThis essentially describes Western pluralist psychosis and you're absurdly projecting onto prehistory every time you talk about "non-conformance". But on top of that, your position isn't even coherent, because the crux of your narrative is that neolithic people were so easygoing and gender-enlightened that conditions 1 and 2 didn't even apply.
>>18512155>EEF was far more advanced than the Indo-Europeans in practically every aspect>>18512165This is why they were called the little people. The Celtic tales of elves, fairies, the Norse and Germanic tales of Dwarves. Who lived underground. Their shining magic weapons; copper, and then bronze.
>>18512236>It is however strange that explicit transvestite behavior is found in the mythology of so many of the indo european sky god type culturesThe divided god is not a tranny.Ymir (Norse), Yama (Vedic), Yima (Aryan)The divided god, represents discrimination.
>>18512461What is a lengthy paternal lineage? Do you mean they persisted in the same area a great while? That doesn't mean what you think it does perhaps. When you look at y-DNA phylogeny the few farmer clades of G2a and J2a that persist to the iron age or our era from LBK (or LBK-like groups) had split off from those found at LBK burials or the massacres of the LBK crisis long before any of that happened. They branched out like pioneers and intermarried with the EHG, BHG and WHG cultures. The I2 finds from Cardial seem to have come from this LBK-like migration, with higher EHG ancestry than WHG. It looks like *all* pre-I1 men were among the riparian Iberian/French megalithic tradition that emerged from this western Mediterranean group, who cluster with Basques and etc. So this means that all pre-IE male lineages that survived to the metal ages at any number did so by doing everything the LBK weren't. It was them who repopulated the continent as agriculturalists and built the big rock-things. What's really messed up is that they were contemporaries with the LBK. LBK literally didn't even have to end the way it did. They just chose to be Orlok demons. I don't know how matriarchal LBK were but life itself seems to have given them anxiety. Everything they made went right back to their big timbered long houses or points right back to their hearths. No one iterated on much technologically even as everything around them was failing. Unlike any of their neighbors, most anthropomorphic depictions were of women or of men carrying grain or wagecucking some other way, or of animals being dominated over. Soul crushing stuff imo. I know Reich et al have been fellating them and their IQ variants in his shitty study but they truly seem like the dumbest, most evil "people" in that whole corner of the earth in all of prehistory.
