I don’t understand how self respecting historians can use terms like Fascism and National Socialism interchangeably. It seems clear to me that they represent two distinct ideologies. During WWII it might have made sense for propaganda reasons, but why do serious historians still use the terms interchangeably?
They don't.
Historians don't do that because they know National Socialism is a particular form of Fascism, but nice headcanon OP
>>18513555Virtually every major WWII historian in the west does. What are you talking about?
Most of the people who do this are normies who think Fascism is just authoritarianism and when government do bad thing. Historians who use them interchangeably are hacks who need to propagandize because if they told the truth about Fascism the modern left would realize they have more in common with Mussolini than they would like to recognize.
>>18513563This is the part where I ask you to give 5 examples, you don't, you screech, you call me a Jew and have a melty.
>>18513543For the same reason they treat all the various strands of Marxism under the umbrella of "Communism"I don't know what that reason is though.
>>18513668Paradox games, hoi4, treat both as the same ideology.Keir Starner treats both as the same ideology.The american left, literally a hundred million people, treat both as the same ideology.Poles treat both as the same ideology and are calling Russia a fascist nazi state.
>>18513843>not a single historian listed
>>18513858>He doesnt know Heinrich Orville Istländ the 4th and Edward PolesNGMI
>>18513864>Edward Felix Tudor-Pole is an English musician, television presenter and actor. Originally gaining fame in the United Kingdom in the late 1970s as the lead singer of the punk rock band Tenpole Tudor, Tudor-Pole began an acting career following the group's split in 1982.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AywIL5_eYMGIGAKEK
>>18513543Americans with no Historian degree tend to do that.Modern historians as well.THUS WE MUST TURN TO OUR OWN MEANS TO CARRY THE HISTORICAL TRUTHS - THAT ARE SELF-EVIDENT.
>>18513864Kek
>>18513543Italian fascists called themselves "national socialists" before the German fascists.>The Italian Nationalist Association (Italian: Associazione Nazionalista Italiana, ANI) was a political party in the Kingdom of Italy that was established in 1910. Representing Italy's nationalist political movement, its leader was Enrico Corradini, who also acted as the party's secretary. It was founded following the first congress of Italian nationalists who had identified themselves with the founder Corradini>Although Corradini hoped that the ANI would become a working-class nationalist mass party, it was mainly supported by right-wing nationalists and had significant influence on the nascent Italian fascist movement and ultimately merged with the National Fascist Party (PNF) in 1923. It was joined by artists and intellectuals such as Gabriele D'Annunzio, Giovanni Verga, and Giacomo Puccini, jurists such as Alfredo Rocco, and military men such as Costanzo Ciano>Corradini occasionally used the term "national socialism" (Italian: socialismo nazionale) to define the ideology which he endorsed. Although this is the same term ("National Socialism", Italian: nazionalsocialismo) used by the Nazis, no evidence exists to indicate that Corradini's use of the term had any influence. In 1914, the ANI began to tilt towards authoritarian nationalism with its endorsement of the creation of an authoritarian corporate state, a radical idea created by Rocco, who was a law professor. Such a corporate state would be led by a corporate assembly rather than a parliament, which would be composed of unions, business organisations, and other economic organisations that would work within a powerful state government to regulate business-labour relations, organise the economy, end class conflict, and make Italy an industrial state that could compete with imperial powers and establish its own empire
>>18514466Btw The first person to coin the term National Socialism was the French nationalist politician Maurice Barrès, friend of the father of Italian Fascism, Gabriele D'Annunzio, who used it to describe the Marquis de Morès in 1896 as "the first National Socialist," since he combined right-wing nationalism with social/workers' demands.>The term national socialism seems to have been invented by the French nationalist author Maurice Barrès, who described the aristocratic adventurer the Marquis de Morès in 1896 as the "first national socialist". Morès, after failing as a cattle rancher in North Dakota, returned to Paris in the early 1890s and organized a band of anti-Semitic toughs who attacked Jewish shops and offices. As a cattleman, Morès found his recruits among slaughterhouse workers in Paris, to whom he appealed with a mixture of anticapitalism and anti-Semitic nationalism. His squads wore the cow- boy garb and ten-gallon hats that the marquis had discovered in the American West, which thus predate black and brown shirts (by a modest stretch of the imagination) as the first fascist uniform. Morès killed a popular Jewish officer, Captain Armand Meyer, in a duel early in the Dreyfus Affair, and was himself killed by his Touareg guides in the Sahara in 1896 on an expedition to “unite France to Islam and to Spain.” “Life is valuable only through action,” he had proclaimed. “So much the worse if the action is mortal
>>18514501The ironic thing is that he was also a friend of Charles Maurras, the most anti of all anti, not even triple could kill him.>Charles-Marie-Photius Maurras (/mɔːˈrɑːs/;[1] French: [ʃaʁl moʁas]; 20 April 1868 – 16 November 1952) was a French author, politician, poet and critic. He was an organiser and principal philosopher of Action Française, a political movement that was monarchist, medievalist, conservative, corporatist, integralist, nationalist, traditionalist, and counter-revolutionary. Maurras also held anti-capitalist, anti-communist, anti-liberal, anti-Masonic, anti-Nazi, anti-Islam, anti-Protestant and antisemitic views. His ideas greatly influenced National Catholicism and integral nationalism, and led to the political doctrine of Maurrassisme>Beside this Orleanist affiliation, Maurras shared some traits with Bonapartism. In December 1887 he demonstrated to the cry of "Down with the robbers!" during the military decorations trafficking scandal, which had involved Daniel Wilson, the son-in-law of President Jules Grévy. Despite this, he initially opposed the nationalist-populist Boulangist philosophy. But in 1889, after a visit to Maurice Barrès, Barrès voted for the Boulangist candidate; despite his "anti-Semitism of the heart" ("anti-sémitisme de coeur"), he decided to vote for a Jew>During 1894–1895, Maurras briefly worked for Barrès' newspaper La Cocarde (The Cockade), although he sometimes opposed Barrès' opinions concerning the French Revolution. La Cocarde supported General Georges Ernest Boulanger, who had become a threat to the parliamentary Republic in the late 1880s.>Maurras became involved in politics at the time of the Dreyfus affair, becoming an anti-Dreyfusard. He endorsed Hubert-Joseph Henry's forgery, blaming Alfred Dreyfus, as he considered that defending Dreyfus weakened the Army and the justice system. According to Maurras, Dreyfus was to be sacrificed on the altar of national interest
>>18513543>>18513555Roger Griffin, in his work on determining the 'fascist minimum', considers 'palingenetic ultranationalism' (national rebirth) to be a heuristic which determines the existence of a fascist movement or regime. In his Oxford reader on fascism, he uses numerous excerpts from Italian and German fascist writers to make his case.This is differentiated from para-fascism which may combine authoritarianism and nationalism without the narrative of a national rebirth. >Palingenetic expectancy projected onto the nation or race is thus presented in my own version of the ideal type as a key psychological driver of fascist violence and precedes the formulation of the transformative mission and specific policies in socio-political terms.>In my particular version of this third approach to fascism, ‘palingenetic’ is paired not with the term ‘nationalism’ but with ‘ultranationalism’ (Griffin 1991: 26–55). The intended significance of the prefix ‘ultra’ here (meaning ‘beyond’ in Latin) is that the imagined community, the ‘nation’, so central to the fascist mindset, has moved irrevocably beyond the spectrum of social ideals compatible with liberal democracy. In the process, nationalism, even if it preserves a façade of democratic legitimacy, has been shorn of any humanistic or egalitarian connotations that it can acquire in a liberal or a socialist context as a source of communal individual, civic and legal freedoms and rights. Fascist ‘ultranationalism’ thus viscerally rejects ‘liberal nationalism’. Within the fascist vision of the world, the nation is often reified (turned into a real entity) and personified to the point where it can be ‘sick’, ‘decadent’, ‘humiliated’ or ‘desecrated’, but it can also be ‘healthy’, ‘strong’, ‘reborn’, ‘glorious’, ‘sacred’.
>>18514507>But while the Republican nationalist thinker Barrès accused Dreyfus of being guilty because of his Jewishness, Maurras went a step further, vilifying the "Jewish Republic". While Barrès' anti-Semitism originated both in pseudo-scientific racist contemporary theories and Biblical exegesis, Maurras decried "scientific racism" in favor of a more radical "state anti-Semitism." Maurras assisted with the foundation of the nationalist and anti-Dreyfusard Ligue de la patrie française at the end of 1898, along with Maurice Barrès, the geographer Marcel Dubois, the poet François Coppée and the critic and literature professor Jules Lemaître>Some historians who were critical of the South French sought to identify the historical origins of what they perceived to be an ethnic disparity. In an article published in Le Gaulois in 1903, Maurice Barrès posited that the conquest of Gaul by Julius Caesar was the primary cause of the disparity between the North and the South. In his thesis novel, Jean Révolte, roman de lutte (1892), Gaston Méry posits that ancient Rome served as a bridgehead for Southern expansion towards Northern Europe. For some conservatives, the 1789 Revolution unfortunately granted primacy to the Gallo-Roman stock of the South, inclined towards egalitarianism, pacifism, and pleasure, over the Frankish stock of the North, inclined towards elitism, militarism, and work. This was posited as the cause of the defeat of 1870 by Ernest Renan
>>18514529>In his 1891 novel Là-bas, Joris-Karl Huysmans posited a prehistoric scenario in which the English Channel had not yet formed and France and England constituted a unified territory and population. It was believed that Joan of Arc was the cause of this incoherent France, incorrectly uniting the incompatibilities of the South and the North. In a pamphlet published the following year, the Freemason Louis Martin, a progressive republican, put forth the argument that she had prevented the fusion of two sister nations and led to the exacerbation of French and English national characteristics. Conversely, for Charles Maurras, a staunch defender of the South despite his nationalist leanings, she repelled the Northern enemy and preserved Latin predominance>The prominent role of Ernest Constans from Béziers, minister of the interior, in the expulsion of religious congregations and opposition to General Georges Boulanger and the Ligue des patriotes, incited another surge of animosity from the far-right. Similarly, the ascendance of the Bloc des gauches between 1902 and 1904, which included numerous Southerners and pursued an assertive anti-clerical policy, incited resentment. Southerners were perceived as undermining the authority of the Church through their promotion of secularization and their association with the tarnishing of the honor of the army in the Dreyfus Affair. Deputies such as Jules Delafosse, writers including Jules Lemaître, president of the Ligue de la patrie française, Maurice Barrès, and others were eager to condemn the dominance and ineptitude of Southern political figures, which they believed undermined the influence of Northern leaders. In 1907, Charles Maurras, a nationalist from the South who opposed leftist radicals, asserted that Southern politicians were intentionally maintaining the country in a state of subjugation
>>18514536>Following the conclusion of World War I, French anti-Southern sentiment exhibited a gradual decline, particularly due to population shifts. However, in 1935, Alexis Carrel, a Nobel laureate, still espoused the view that Northern races were superior to those on the Mediterranean coasts. Before World War II, the writer Louis-Ferdinand Céline, whose works evince a "Nordicism," explicitly manifested his anti-Southern sentiments by reusing several clichés. These included portraying the North as a conquering and productive entity, in contrast to the South as a threatening and paralyzing force. In L'École des cadavres, Sarah Al-Matary notes that the author equates "Latinism" with "Greece," which is "already of the Orient." This invokes Freemasonry, which the pamphleteer associates with "Jews," frequently compared in his writings to "Negroes."The dinamic relationship between these two perfectly summarizes the modern dynamics of radtrads and neo-nazis, including here in /his/, hue.
>>18513864>>18513843You're such a retard"wah wah every historian".Are these historians in the room with us now anon?
>>18514501>>18514466You're refering to the combination of being a nationalist and a socialist (national socialist).This isnt the same National Socialism that Hitler founded.Hitlers claimed that socialism wasnt "real socialism" because real socialism focus on the blood of the people rather than class.Stop being an idiot. Fact-wise everything you say is true but you come to the completely wrong conclusion because you think the socialism being referenced is the same type of socialism Hitler founded.This is also what mainly seperates fascism from German N-S. German N-S is all about the purity of the blood. It's a race war. The people define the state. If you change the blood of the people, you change the nature of the state.In Fascism it's the opposite. It's unity through state, which means it's anti-identity. The state defines the people. Fascism does not feature racism as a ideology doctrine, hence why the Italian fascist party had a high number of jewish members (before Germany pressured Italy to enact race laws).
>favelamonkey still can't tl;drat least you've stopped banning people for calling you favelamonkey...or have you?
>>18514557Even if we consider Hitler's idiosyncratic notion of Socialism, that doesn't make him the first National Socialist, that was Victor Berger, and he was an Jew, hue.>Victor Luitpold Berger (February 28, 1860 – August 7, 1929) was an Austrian-American socialist politician and journalist who was a founding member of the Social Democratic Party of America and its successor, the Socialist Party of America>Berger was born into a Jewish family on February 28, 1860, in Nieder-Rehbach, Austrian Empire (modern Romania)>Relative to other contemporary socialist politicians, Berger was a racial conservative. He regularly fought Eugene V. Debs on the subject. Berger initially believed Asian immigrants would out-reproduce white Americans and further complicate the socialist movement's cross-racial solidarity. Between 1907 and 1912, he masterminded racially-discriminatory immigration restrictions in the Socialist Party platform. However, by 1924, he opposed bans on immigration from Asia>His views on Jim Crow were only slightly more nuanced: while Berger wrote in a 1902 editorial that "There can be no doubt that the negroes and mulattoes constitute a lower race — that the Caucasian and even the Mongolian have the start on them in civilization by many years," he does not appear to have believed that this justified "the barbarous behavior of American whites towards the negroes". Instead, Berger argued that segregation was a symptom of an elite capture that left the American legal system indifferent to the poor of every race. By the 1920s, Berger had reversed his views on race, stating that a man "cannot belong to a society organized to persecute Catholics, Jews, Negroes and foreigners — and at the same time call himself a Socialist."
>>18514701>inb4 Hitler did not use/believe in the term "white race"
