>>18525866
Oh wow, I just googled it, never mind

>>18525866
It doesn't matter if the demand and labor is there, if banks go bust then businesses don't have any money to buy things or pay their employees who also don't have any money to drive consumption.
>just inject more money into the system to fix a liquidity crisis
The Great Depression happened during the based and trad Gold Standard™, the state was much more limited in how it could handle these things

>>18525866
The money supply was contracted to force foreclosures.

lending on credit
same thing which is currently fucking your entire current economy, worldwide

you are not ready for what is coming, there are *very* few who are and I can only hope they make it
there is nobody to blame but the bankers and financiers, and the government who enforces fiat currency

>>18525905
There is no "injection".
As if there were some solution that could be intravenously administered.

Only handwaving more debt (nothing) into existence and calling it "money".
Ones and zeros on a computer that are created every time someone takes out a loan.

It's not real.
Your economy is controlled by open frauds.

Chiefly a crisis of overproduction. There were more food and consumer products than anyone could use. American industry and farming had gotten too efficient for their own good and wages did not keep pace with productivity.

Demand for labor does not stop existing just because certain banks do.

People need to eat.
They do not need banks.

If the means by which you eat are controlled by banks, who do not produce food and do not truly labor, you will eventually starve when producing food becomes unprofitable.

>>18525956
It is real simply because people agree that it is real, and it is used every single day for transactions. It's pants of head retarded to refuse to solve a liquidity crisis just because you want to feel smart and say "WELL ACKTSHUALLY DID YOU KNOW THAT MODERN MONEY IS CREATED EX NIHILO?"

>>18525866
>What ACTUALLY caused the Great Depression?
I got divorced and started smoking weed.

>>18525971
No, people simply agreeing something is real does not make it materially so.
You can agree with someone at the market that the weight of the flour they sold you is on the level, and then get back home and find it had been adulterated with chalk.

That's essentially what's happening to billions of people all the time.
The "liquidity crisis" is a tacit admission that your money is not real.

The fact people use monopoly money for transactions doesn't give it actual utilitarian virtue.
Oil is useful, gold is industrially super important, land is valuable, etc, but the price of these commodities in fiat currency is artificially manipulated by centralized institutions engaging in speculation which effectively amounts to money laundering and you need to accept this fact.

Happens quite regularly.
The state pays farmers not to plant their fields, cow enjoyers to destroy milk, they'll even restrict drilling and therefore global supply to keep OPEC rolling in it.

Because it's "profitable" for the miniscule minority of people who stand to gain, not generally beneficial.

>>18525971
All money is in truth fiat and created ex-nihilo. Even gold and other precious metals. Who do you think decides the allowable measures and rates? Who do you think mints the coins? It's the state. Theres a reason the monarchs picture was on the coins, it was a symbol of the states backing.

>>18525997
You simply have no idea how fiat is even defined.
It requires debt.

Silver coins do not represent a debt, but a means of settlement.
The stamp on them is a *guarantee* by a state of quality and hence redeemability.
When states debase their currencies, their people suffer.

Paper money, which is not actually backed by anything else like the *silverback* was, represents nothing else.
You could take a silverback dollar to a bank and ask for physical silver in return. That means it's redeemable in silver, backed by it.

They have to be holding a certain amount, and this gives the note it's value.
Not rocket science.

>>18525995
>No, people simply agreeing something is real does not make it materially so.
If people collectively agree that something is valuable then it does indeed become valuable. If you think that I meant that if n+1 people say that the sky is made out of gold then the atoms in the sky will re-arrange themselves to become gold then you're being retarded on purpose.
>The fact people use monopoly money for transactions doesn't give it actual utilitarian virtue.
The device and internet access required for you to make this post was paid for using monopoly money, as was the last meal you ate, the clothes you wear and virtually every good and service in your life.
>>18525997
The very definition of a fiat currency is something that isn't backed up by something physical (such as gold) so no, it literally cannot be the same as gold, silver or seashell based currency.

The US government used to literally mint Kennedy half dollars in silver.

There was a time, not even that long ago now definitely within my living memory, when you could take a 20 dollar bill to the bank and ask to exchange it for Kennedy half dollars which were printed within a certain range of dates.
It could take some time, but they would actually give you stacks of silver for essentially nothing because that coin is nominally worth 50 cents. You can tell it's the real item by the sound it makes when struck, silver has a perceptibly clear tone.

This does not work anymore, because like the late Roman Empire they have totally debased the currency.

>>18526010
Debasing means lying about how much of a metal is in the coin i.e. the coin says it has 5 grams of gold but it actually has only 4. You obviously have no idea how money even works.

>>18526008
No, it does not. It makes those people delusional.
Please take your head out of your ass. Delusions are not inherently valuable.

It's delusional to say chalk is worth the same as wheat just because it looks similar.

No, the device I am using to post was made in factory which probably has suicide nets outside.
Labor, skill, raw materials and goods, are the true vector for real economic value.
Electricity is not just some ones and zeros your local bank typed up when you signed on the dotted line, it probably requires coal or nuclear power and a generator and transformers which cannot be simply poofed into being.

Seashells are literally worth more than dollars.
They even call some of them "sand dollars".
Figure that one out.

>>18526017
Very cool, pedantic faggot. Clearly his meaning has been completely destroyed by the misuse of a word. We could never possibly infer what the intent of his statement was.

>>18526017
Did you agree to the lie or not?
Doesn't matter if you realized it was a lie at the time.

That's valuable to some people, the liars, not necessarily you though SNS.
You'll never get that back man.

>>18526017
Just to further expand on this point. Spain destroyed their metal backed currency with inflation while suffering zero debasement because when you add the entire new world's precious metal supply into your economy overnight you inflate it. So much for "Muh Gold doesn't inflate."

>>18526024
Actually he was very clear that he thought the economic problems of Ancient Rome and the Modern West were caused by the same thing. His entire statement rests upon that assumption. It's quite easy to infer his (retarded) intent.

>>18526024
NTA, but unc is just permasalty for reasons.
I know what he means.

>>18526031
It's so crazy that you can't see the obvious parallels here.

The dollar is not worth the same as it was last year, it's purchasing power is manifestly degraded, because it is being debased every single day by everyone who takes out a loan.

Every single credit card that exists contributes immediately to real inflation.
The money doesn't have to be made of metal to be effectively debased.

>>18526022
>It's delusional to say chalk is worth the same as wheat just because it looks similar.
It's delusional to say wheat is worth more than gold because it can be eaten.
>No, the device I am using to post was made in factory which probably has suicide nets outside.
How and why do you think it was made? For fun, or because someone invests monopoly money for a product to be made so it can be sold for more monopoly money?
>Labor
paid for by monopoly money
>raw materials
extracted by people and machines paid for by monopoly money
>goods
created by people and machines paid for by monopoly money
>Electricity is not just some ones and zeros your local bank typed up when you signed on the dotted line, it probably requires coal or nuclear power and a generator and transformers which cannot be simply poofed into being.
They're designed by people who pay monopoly money for the opportunity to become experts in their field and then constructed by people who are paid monopoly money to build them.

>>18525866
The economic destruction of Germany manufactured by the former Entente powers destabilized the global economic system, though it took a decade for the effects to be felt.

>>18526050
>wheat is worth more than gold
Thankfully that's not anything I've said.
You can't grow gold. And you can't simply handwave grain into existence either.

But from time to time, a loaf of bread cannot be bought with an equivalent weight of silver or gold.
Because the person you want to buy it from is desperately hungry, or their kids need something to eat.
History is replete with this kind of problem.

>someone invests monopoly money for a product to be made so it can be sold for more monopoly money
So you must think the purpose of this device begins and ends with the value of the almighty dollar, to the complete exclusion of it's real world utility as a communications device.

>Labor
>paid for by monopoly money

Not necessarily.
This is what you're not truly getting.
Compensation for services rendered can be realistically handled in many, many other ways than fiat currency.

You're treating this particular medium of exchange as if it's some kind of god, it's really not.
Much the opposite really, God has much more in common with bread at this point.
And the Romans used to give that away for free.

>>18526038
>The dollar is not worth the same as it was last year
Yeah, and if you knew anything you'd know in debasement this isn't true. Older coins kept their value over the newer debased ones, which created a disastrous feedback loop of bad money chasing out good where the Rich hoarded but refused to spend the old pre-debasement coins, while only paying out in the new debased ones, which created a currency crisis where there were essentially two or more currency systems existing. This is completely different from modern day inflation problems, which likewise are caused by completely different political and idealogical sources. You should stop digging this hole you're in and admit you don't know shit.

>>18526056
>You can't grow gold. And you can't simply handwave grain into existence either.
No, but you can use currency to pay someone who is growing wheat or has processed someone else's wheat into flour and bread. This currency can be backed by something or fiat.
>Because the person you want to buy it from is desperately hungry, or their kids need something to eat.
>History is replete with this kind of problem.
How often has it happened that you cannot buy a loaf of bread with it's equivalent weight in pure gold? How like do you think this is in your future? Would you rather be wired a billion dollars or given a container full of wheat? The first should be worthless because it can't by physically consumed, right, and there's a non-zero chance that the entire financial system might collapse tomorrow?
>So you must think the purpose of this device begins and ends with the value of the almighty dollar, to the complete exclusion of it's real world utility as a communications device.
It was designed and built by people investing monopoly money to make more monopoly money. It exists thanks to monopoly money.
>Compensation for services rendered can be realistically handled in many, many other ways than fiat currency.
And they're best rendered with a fungible, stable currency, fiat or otherwise. Nobody wants to go back to a retarded barter economy with chickens, beads and bushels of wheat. It is infinitely more convenient to use money that is just as good at the baker as it is at the butcher or barber.

>>18526057
Something similar happened when the First French Republic adopted fiat currency, the assignat.
They backed it, in part, by selling confiscated church properties to creditors.

The old money, the ones with the king's head on them which is super ironic, accordingly went way up in value relatively.
Because the state just kept printing paper money into hyperinflationary oblivion, counterfeiters exacerbated the issue, and the people suffered all the more.

People holding bills, payments for their real service to the nation, found that their money just kept getting less and less valuable. They were being robbed.
Napoleon, to his credit, actively opposed fiat currency as a result. William Cobbett had the same takeaway from his experience in revolutionary France.

>>18526067
fiat isn't backed by anything other than debt

>How like do you think this is in your future?
Because I can see total systems failure and the collapse of just-in-time international supply chain which almost every national economy and core national security concerns are based around coming years out.

That problem did not exist in 1950.
It does now. Easily a billion people would starve to death.

>stable
all wars are bankers wars
butchers and bakers used to exist
most of your food used to be gotten within 20 miles of your house

now you have the supermarket, and are usually dependent on imports from half the world away
awesome bro, that is the best

>>18525866
Me.

>>18526071
>fiat isn't backed by anything other than debt
Debt literally predates currency by millennia. Currency in all forms is simply a means of making debt easier to transfer. Fiat is backed by the power and perceived legitimacy of the state, same as gold coins.

>>18526095
>Debt literally predates currency by millennia.
No.
Debt starts to exist beginning with record keeping and intensive agriculture in the neolithic.
Currency has taken many different forms since before the ledger was invented.

Sometimes it's literally just a simple exchange, and there is no future agreement to repay or any thought of interest.
Instead, what you had for an economy were effectively reciprocal obligations.
A mutual trust even. Gift giving is probably even older.

That is worth more than money, because it can't be purchased.
It's the basis of the social fabric itself, upon which bad money can, has been and is still corrosive.

>fiat is backed by power
>perceived legitimacy

funny thing that, how fiat currency does not depend on the *actual* legitimacy of the state but only an illusion created by those with an interest it it merely appearing to be
if fiat is backed by power then you're a willing subject of the boot, licky licky

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>>18526095
>>18526129
Fiat is based on the strength and stability of the economy itself, it's backed by the collective labor and services of said economy, which means it scales with said economy

The reason we stopped backing currency on Gold is because Gold became too valuable for industry such as electronics, and it didn't make any sense to deny these industries access to gold because a couple of retards like shiny rocks.

You can still buy gold and silver by the way

gold coins are worth essentially just as much in a different state than yours because they're made of literally gold, depending on how common it is there

gold doesn't depend on the legitimacy of any particular state to have value
people just respect it due to it's inherent physical properties
a state can be defunct and not exist for centuries and their coins will still have value because they are made of metal that does not corrode easily

fiat currency is not like that even a little bit
the piece of paper has no value at all in a different state which doesn't take that bill
if there are no agreements to honor a state's issue, your paper is not worth anything

if the state goes, so does all the "value" you have in their paper bills
now who wouldn't that inspire patriotism in

gold is still going to be a useful medium of exchange in that situation almost universally
unless you really want to wipe your ass or start a fire, to burn your worthless trash money for warmth

>>18526134
That's a lot of words bro but the value of fiat is more stable than Gold is specifically because Gold is a finite resource and is far more subject to external market forces and supply. It also means it can't scale with the size of the economy or population. It's not some Jewish conspiracy that lead to basically every country in the world dropping the Gold Standard, you're just a retard.

>>18526131
>backed by the collective labor
haha no
not at all

there actually were a few currencies backed by labor certificates before
that is not how the world reserve currency works, you are huffing paint

believe it or not America's GDP has next to nothing to do with it's real economic health, since it primarily consists of recurrent debt cycling, money changing hands repeatedly rather than anything actually being produced, and neither factor into the actual mechanism of how the money is created

economists might advise the fed to increase interest rates on debt their banks take on, but their analysis isn't actually required or even a necessarily determining factor

neither one of you are disputing the fact that the depression was caused by lending on credit (arbitrage, leverage), and subsequently buying stock or futures on margin
basically you take out a loan at "wholesale" interest rate, and use that money to loan someone else for a higher interest rate, which nets you a profit spread
a sucker could by stock at 10 percent price down payment by using the value of the stock itself as collateral and return a percentage to, the brokers who were themselves taking out call loans from the banks to cover this activity

they became irregularly over leveraged
something similar happened in 2007-8
and it's happening again, it keeps happening

>>18525995
ok retard go buy your corn pops with Spanish doubloons then

>>18526160
I will just continue being objectively correct about the actual cause of the great depression.
They were playing a game with funny money, then it came due and they had no more clothes to take off.

Enjoy being responsible for explaining 30 trillion in debt as if that's supposed to make sense.
Just print a 30 trillion dollar bill, it's fine. I'm not going to gaslight myself pretending everything is fine.

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>>18525866
FDR caused it by being a Stalin-wannabe communist dipshit.
Unironically read Atlas Shrugged. When I read it, I thought the whole storyline of the government using an economic crisis to transform the country into the USSR was a 1984-style hyperbole. Turns out, Ayn Rand literally just put actual irl FDR's policies into the book.

>>18526163
>Enjoy being responsible for explaining 30 trillion in debt as if that's supposed to make sense.
We don't look at debt in a vacuum, we weigh it against the size of the economy
30 trillion in debt vs a 31 trillion dollar economy
The highest the dept:gdp ratio has ever been in post-world war 2

>>18525956
>retard finds out what credit is
Even some primitive ooga boogas on an island figured it out thousands of years ago. What difference does it make if your money is worthless paper or worthless pixels on a screen?

>>18525866
Ben Bernanke admitted that the Federal Reserve caused the Great Depression (and then he said that they won't do it anymore. They are doing it again as we speak)

>>18526425
now, how _technically_ they did it is beyond comprehension of an average /his/ anon - suffice to say that the American Central Bank in 1913 took the responsibility for the stability of the financial system and it screwed bigly.

>>18526431
I read that essentially banks were gambling using people's savings accounts and then some. Beyond fractional reserve banking, literally just spaffing everyone's savings AND money they didn't have. Led to some Acts that were then repealed in 1999 and potentially indirectly led to 2008.

>>18525866
>What ACTUALLY caused the Great Depression?
FDR's socialist policies

>>18525866
Lack of trust literally.
Jean-Baptiste Say's law of (? Loi des débouchés?) states that the more optimal production is, the more workers you can release to build upon the new resources and develop the industry further, therefore if everyone started working at once, there would always be a need for resources.
But the expectation of an economic crash turns people into retarded shiny coin goblins and so they'd rather hold onto their useless currency than produce usable resources.
But an economic crash can never go below the primal incentive of working to produce food not to start so at somepoint you hit the bottom and rebound.
Modern economies are all about keeping the trust and keeping the grind
Some cheeky communists would say that these sort of point inneficencies would not happen in a planned economy since there would not be decorrelation between the means and the desired outcome. But maybe planned economies are inefficient the rest of the time who knows

>>18526057
>disastrous feedback loop of bad money chasing out good where the Rich hoarded but refused to spend the old pre-debasement coins
fun fact
something I forgot to mention earlier

during the French Revolution, the coins with the king's head on them were literally banned from public use
if you were caught with royal coin instead of the wheelbarrow paper money they pretended was real, you would spend 15 years in prison and all your property would be forfeit

so they formed a stalwart part of the underground black market economy anyways, because they were actually still worth something
worth even more actually, because it represented something true and not false

later, most of this supply was lost when L'Orient exploded off the coast of Egypt, since Nappy thought it would be genius to bring the entire treasury with him on campaign