A few months ago, I was discussing with a colleague here about an Indo-European substrate in Sumer, and although we didn't have any concrete material beyond this supposed substrate, we theorized that it could be a language as old as the Early Bronze Age and, in that case, derived from a Proto-Indo-European/Yamnaya dialect. Well, a new preprint has revealed something quite interesting. We have two new samples (A22039 and A22037) which are relatively steppe rich and possess R1b-Z2103>M12149.These Samples are from the new Bakr Awa assemblage, from the Middle Bronze Age, in northeastern Iraq.I went deeper and discovered a Mesopotamian legend that was transmitted in multiple versions in various ancient languages, describing a great migration/invasion from the north that subjugated several peoples before moving south, towards southern Mesopotamia. Perhaps they may be related to the ancestors of these samples? Much is said about the Gutians, whose language is practically unknown. Sources say they came from the Zagros Mountains and it was called Subartu, meaning the elevated areas, later evolving to become a synonym for the word slaves, before the names Lullubi and Gutium became... If we go back to Babylonian sources, they looked down on the Assyrians and called their land Subartu.Naturally, these are just two samples, and we can't infer much from them. But at this point, it's safe to say that the Indo-Europeans (Catacomb or Armenic) migration through the Caucasus did not stop there but went into Urmia and it seems even further southPerhaps it's related to the substrate? Obviously, the dates may not match 100%, and we're dealing with a very small sample size to draw any conclusions. And from what I understand, they are categorized them as _o
>>18528292the legends I was talking about
Might be influence from Ancient North Eurasians they were quite advanced and made forays into Europe and Asia before their indo European ancestors.
>>18528309>Ancient North EurasiansNo.
>>18528309>Not taking your medication can be difficult.Said your doctor>>18528292>>18528297I wouldn't be surprised to find more samples with this profile in the Zagros and Mesopotamia regions, which are poorly sampled. If I remember correctly, the Assyrians used mercenaries described as war slaves who wore wild animal skins, and some compared them to *koryos or something similar.
>>18528324Now that you mention it, I think someone has posted something like this here before. Do you know of any specific source?
There was an early female sample with steppe ancestry from Northern Iran. I think back then people already thought they could be Gutians. Even if Gutian language wasn't Indo-European it's still possible they were related people. PIE could cross the Caucasus, mix with locals and largely lose their original language. Then they settled somewhere in the Zagros Mountains. This makes a lot of sense as Gutians were basically some unknown barbarians to local Middle Easterners with very different culture and customs.
>>18528292It's curious. It's been evident for a while now that there must have been Indo-European incursions into the Middle East, but so far all we've got to work with is the occasional random sample or trace admixture in strange places like Egypt. It makes you wonder what they were up to.There could have been bands of these people wandering with their livestock outside major cities and we normally aren't aware of their presence because archaeology doesn't focus on where they were buried in the sticks.
>>18528418>There was an early female sample with steppe ancestry from Northern IranYes, at first I had completely forgotten about that specific sample. One might assume it was a sample related to Iranics, but based on the date and the mixture, we know that the source is actually similar to Yamnaya rather than CWC. IA Hasanlu samples are Z2103-rich with no R1a and apparently Hajji-Firuz IA is also Z2103. is notable - ~2300 BC,This is the region mentioned in Mesopotamian articles as the origin of the ancient Gutians. Perhaps there is some connection.. or Perhaps they put pressure on Gutians, forcing the invasions of Akkad & Elam?
>>18528428Absolutely. A clear example of this is the Yamnaya themselves and their eastward migration. Patterson stated that within a few years they were able to traverse Asia rapidly with their cattle, without significant difficulty, which is consistent with IBD analyses indicating a difference of only several generations between the core Yamnaya and the Afanasievo.See>then an extraordinary event occurs, which is I think one of the most amazing events in human history. This is very hard to believe except that the evidence that it happened is overwhelming. So the Yamnaya culture forms. They start to expand. They move east onto the Volga River, and then a kind of demographic explosion occurs. And about 3200 BC or thereabouts, some of these Volga guys move all the way to Siberia, an enormous distance and form a culture of the archeologists call the Afanasievo. But the Afanasievo are genetically identical to Yamnaya Volga, right? I can see no differences whatever. In fact in my work, I take the Afanasievo, the Volga settlements, and I just group them all together as one population because I can't differentiate them. There's no real point in distinguishing about it. I get a bigger sample size if I lump them. So this happened incredibly quickly. My archeological colleagues say that you can move cattle from the Volga river to Siberia in as little as two years. And I think that's what happened probably. Certainly no more than a generation or so though. And some of my archeological friends just didn't believe me when I told them this on the basis of autosomal data. But we now find a pair of relatives, I think they're second or third cousins. We're not completely sure. One of the cousins is Yamnaya in Hungary, and the other cousin is Yamnaya in Siberia. So there's just no doubt whatever.https://youtu.be/9TD9KStlx7A?is=dZOryMYHW-rriZH4
>>18528456Wow she was majority Yamnaya
>>18528471Yeah, it's the most steppe heavy sample from the region to this day. On PCA it sits between Caucasus and Yamnaya. I think it's mroe steppe heavy that pretty much any sample from Caucasus and Iran of any era.
>>18528464I think they actually went through Caucasus rather than around. Iranians later arrived from the East, through Iran.
>>18528456>This is the region mentioned in Mesopotamian articles as the origin of the ancient GutiansI misspoke, not "articles," but mentioned in Mesopotamian records. And thinking about it, these new samples are from the middle of the Bronze Age, just like this woman in question (second millennium BC). Perhaps that makes sense.
>>18528478Yes. Its pre-iranic. My objective was to reiterate the remarkable mobility of the Indo-Europeans and how they managed to cover significant distances in a short period alongside their livestock. A migration from Ukraine to Mongolia, for example, is highly impressive. Consequently, migrating to the South Caucasus is entirely plausible, as these two new examples demonstrate. The central question now would be: what was the nature of these relationships? While there was no introduction of Indo-European dialects into Mesopotamia, if these legends are indeed correlated—>>18528297 which is geographically logical—it is possible that some conflict occurred. (Due invasions, maybe)
>>18528475It seems like they're too lazy to collect more samples from these locations.
>>18528292What about the kassites??
>>18528620too late to be related to these samples and to judge by the possible Iranian substrate in some inscriptions, such as 'Suryash' and 'Marutash', which resemble 'Surya' and 'Marut' in the Rig Veda, so perhaps it was related to an Indo-Iranian migration rather than Yamnaya. I'm not sure if they are in fact etymologically related, but they are not relevant here.
>>18528636NTA In the Kassite language, the god of wind is called Buriash, a term that seems to be related to the Vedic god Vāyu the term 'bayār' for Vāyu is still prevalent in Hindi. In the works of Homer one of the two winds is called 'North Boreas'."
All civilizations were started by blonde Nordics :)
>>18528643Stop trolling
>>18528292>A few months ago, I was discussing with a colleague here about an Indo-European substrate in SumerWhat?
>>18528639>>18528636There's any relation between Sumero-Babylonian Marduk, Cassite Marutash and Indian Marut? All were Storm or Wind gods
Marduk < *Maruta-ka?
>>18528662>>18528657Marutash is one of thefew Kassite theonyms that can be reliably attributed to an Indo-Iranian origin There are other theonyms, such as bugas, equated with the name of the Vedic god Bhaga, Baga in Avestan, and suriias, the name of a solar deity equated with the Vedic god Surya.The problem is that the Kassites, who invaded Babylon only in the 18th century BC, spoke an unknown language for which no external relationship has been found to date.Only a few Kassite words, including the theonyms above, appear to come fromone or more (pre-)ancient Indo-Aryan languages with which they came into contact in the eastern Zagros, perhaps the same languages that also influenced the Hurrians of Mitanni. Therefore, at least the Kassite Maruttas was a god similar in name and character to the Vedic Marut (plural: Marutas).>MardukIt is highly unlikely that his name derives from *Maruta-ka. Furthermore, Marduk was not specifically a storm god; he was a supreme god of the sky, but it is likely that he underwent syncretism with Ninurta during the Old Babylonian period.
>>18529191I know there was also attempts to link marut to Mars (Mavors)
