From a modern nazi perspective were the 20th July plotters really that bad? The German cause was beyond lost at that part, thousands of germans and whites in general would lose their lives only to delay the red army by a couple months and the majority of German military losses were yet to happen as the military command collapsed through autumn and winter.
>>18531356nazism is hitlerism, if hitler takes a shit on the floor and you claim to be a nazi then it's your job to lap it up
>>18531356To add when the Hitler Jugend was deployed to the front the Nucleus of the next generation of nazis fell to allied artillery while the future liberal and communist leaders did the best they could to avoid fighting.
The question is: what would they have accomplished? They would have had to surrender unconditionally all the same. Maybe Germany would have been treated better in defeat. But then again, without the US and the USSR meeting each other in the middle of Germany and both sides of Germany becoming important strategic and industrial zones in their respective Cold War blocs, maybe Germany would have been treated worse. The millions who did not die between July 1944 and May 1945 may not have died, but tens of millions may have died after the surrender all the same. Who knows?So then the question reverts to the way it was seen then: a proper German/Prussian officer does not, under any circumstance, disobey an order or rebel. As Goering, who for all his faults was a proper German officer and a decorated WWI pilot, said after the war:>Do you think I give that much of a damn about my lousy life? — For myself, I don't give a damn if I get executed, or drown, or crash in a plane, or drink myself to death! But there is still a matter of honor in this life! — Assassination attempt on Hitler! — Ugh! — Gott im Himmel! I could have sunk through the floor!
>>18531358That's not 'Nazism' or 'Hitlerism', it's German. Why did the immediate post-WWI militias obey orders from the Social Democrats? Because the Social Democrats were the government. Same with Hitler; most Germans were not Nazis, but they were Germans, and so they obeyed Hitler.
>>18531356If Hitler had died, Germany would have immediately collapsed and Soviet forces would have swept across Western Europe. East Prussia and Silesia would have still been genocided and possibly Austria or Brandenburg as well
>>18531454>Who knowsMay you explain what would have caused the allies to throw germans into death camps if some more germans had not died between 1944 and may 1945? Why would more germans have died if they had surrendered before hostile armies advanced into their core lands and the entire german government began to collapse?
>>18531662What was the soviet forces going to do july/augist 1944 that they couldn't have done summer of 1945? Reminder that they faced a mini holodomar because their food situation was so fucked.
>>18531712The Western Allies had just barely gained a footing in Europe in July 1944. If Germany had collapsed at that point, the Soviets would have taken all of it and possibly advanced into France or Northern Italy
>>18531775And it wouldn't have allowed the western allies to advance faster as well? Hitler pulled armour away from the eastern front to strike at the west so having hitler killed should help the west and hurt the east.
>>18531356You'd get a '1984' timeline where a Russian state stretches from Luxembourg to Kamchatka, before eventually absorbing the Mediterranean and waging a nuclear war against the Anglosphere
>>18531788I doubt it, since Hitler dying would mean a succession crisis and Germany would probably just collapse as a state, letting the Soviets move in with little resistance. The West would have to move VERY quickly to compete with the Russians since at that point all they controlled was Southern Italy and a little beachhead around Normandy
>>18531358>wrongthinkism is wrongthinkism>freudian slip
>>18531356>a modern naziLiterarily a Zionist tool, best shabos goys
>>18531794> Germany would probably just collapse as a stateUnlike with the western allies the average German soldier was actually interested in fending the soviets off. Why do you think they would all drop their guns and run home?In this world Hitler doesn't pull all the armour he can from the east to throw it at the Ardennes
>>18531356>From a modern nazi perspectiveWell, yeah, it's not really cared about anymore. Most will express some distate at the concept of staging a rebellion in wartime but they don't seethe about it in the way contemporary propaganda would have wanted.
>>18532711What was the right move in 1944-45? Keep throwing every available man into the meatgrinder so Hitler could remain fuhrer one more year?
>>18531356>beyond lostWhat does this even mean?Was the Afghan cause lost? They were occupied for 20 years.>>18531662Soviets couldnt even genocide the Forest Brothers.
>>18532762Unlike the afghans the germans put down their arms the second the allies walked in beyond a few assassinations and the Germans were surrendering to the wallies to such a degree Hitler considered massacring western pows to make that impossible for fear of retribution
>>18532757>What was the right moveRetreat from Poland after British ultimatum
>>18531454Germany suffered the absolute most casualties of the entire war between late 1944 to 1945.Historians estimate that in 1945 alone Germany sustaiend roughly 2 million military casualties. And that's just millitary. Civilian casualties especially in eastern Europe escalated late in the war.Also the bombing campaign was at its most intense during this time period. So it would have changed A LOT. Millions would be alive on both sides. Germany cities would have been far more preserved, not just German but other countries too. Cities such as Budapest and Warsaw were completely destroyed which it wouldnt have been. The holocaust woud have been stopped as well.The cons however could be that Hitler becomes a martyr, and the stab-in-the-back myth is not only preserved but also rejuvinated. The positive aspect of NS Germany fighting to the final brick in our IRL timeline was that it killed the stab-in-the-back myth that happened in 1918.
>>18532782Pretty much. Capitulating earlier would have saved an immeasurable amount of lives and prevented tons of suffering.The only negative scenario I can imagine is that if the German state completely collapsed, then Soviets could have marched in and occupied even more of the country, but realistically, would it have been worse than deaths of millions? Only if it had led to Soviets becoming hyper confident and then starting an another war that ends up in even more casualties, but on the other hand, >>18532707 is also right in saying that basically nobody beyond KPD hardliners in Germany wanted a Soviet occupation, so I’d imagine that resisting Soviets in order to facilitate a surrender to western powers would be good glue to hold Germany together even if politics got hyper chaotic.
>>18532853As far as I know, the idea of the July plot was to surrender to the allies only, and continue resisting the Soviets. It would essentially be Churchills wet dream of operation Unthinkable since it puts the allies in a favorable position since it's a hard reset to 1939 in terms of where armies are standing. The allies could press Stalin to halt all advances which would effectively spare Poland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia etc. In return, Germany unconditionally surrenders to both sides as Roosevelt insisted, and consequently faces the same post-war consequences as IRL 1945.The main point is that Germany surrendering in 1944 is more beneficial for Europe as a whole than Germany specifically.But again, it will spare millions of German soldiers and civilians, and spare the destruction of several German cities, Königsberg, Dresden, Dortmund, Munich, Essen, Berlin etc. Most of Germanys cultural heritage would have been preserved.And again, the cons; stab in the back myth survives and flourish.
>>18532877Forgot to attach image.If Germany surrenders at this point, there is a real chance of a hard 1939-reset with Soviets being kept out.
>>18532770>The Germans put down their armsBut they didn’t. The Western golems had to endure a nine month hellmarch through West Europe. The Eastern Front turned into a Wild West free for all.The German army only gave in after Hitler was dead.They still had gas in the tank well into 1945 as evidenced by Spring Awakening.They were even still capable of victories such as Bautzen.They were still dangerous to where German pockets lasted for days into weeks after the surrender was signed.Not for nothing but harsh resistance can work, the Soviets thought it was easier to reach Berlin than Helsinki.
>>18532771They tried.They hadn’t taken any Polish town or city when they asked for peace with Britain and Poland the first time.
>>18533500Might Hitlers decision to pull units out of the east to strike at the west have contributed to that?
>>18532707>the average German soldier was actually interested in fending the soviets offThe average German was just trying to survive from 1944 onwards>Why do you think they would all drop their guns and run home?They wouldn't, but the chain of command would collapse and total chaos would break out>In this world Hitler doesn't pull all the armourIn this world there is no clear German leadership so random generals are just yelling contradictory orders while the front lines collapse
>>18531356Assassinating Hitler would have killed Germany as a state since he had no clear designated successor (Goering was before the war, but he had clearly fallen out of favour at that point) and anyone who tried to claim the mantle of Fuhrer would immediately be suspected as one of the traitors responsible for the assassination. Probably for a short period, the SS would create a total police state under Himmler before this eventually collapsed. It's not a stretch to say Germany would be completely destroyed by Autumn 1944 with Soviet troops arriving on the German-French border.I doubt it would be long until WW3 kicked off between the Soviets and Anglo powers, since without West Germany as a buffer state, the Soviets would border France and Italy, two nations holding broadly pro-Soviet and anti-Anglo views. In these circumstances, exporting the Revolution to France and Italy may be too tempting for the Russians to resist
