Inefficiency or simply a reform of the legions that caused them to lose prestige? They seemed to represent a kind of unity from Italy's distant past. Something archaic.I couldn't stop thinking about how similar they were to Úlfhéðnar or the more encompassing PIE *koryos. Although the velites were more like skirmish troops than anything else.
>>18532134Finally, a good thread..
>>18532134Lurking
>>18532134Not an expert on the Roman army throughout its history, by any means, but I'd wager it has to do with the official state sponsorship of the entire army and its standardization. Velites (skirmishers) units in armies of around the same period as the rise of the republic were typically made up of the poorest, most under equipped men. With the state supplying every army from helmet to boot that ceased to be a category for the enlisted. So it was instead relegated to mercenary or auxiliary forces.
>>18532134young men who were both poor yet possess the inherent vigor required for such a position faded away as the luxuries of empire enriched the City of Rome.
>>18532172Or being poor stopped being an impediment to being well armed and armored.
>>18532172You did not answer OP's question
>>18532172>>18532167Thanks
>>18532167>official state sponsorship of the entire armyThat's not entirely true. Most soldiers still have to pay for their own equipment.
>>18532196Like I said:>Not an expert on the Roman army throughout its history, by any meansIf you actually *do* know, please explain. I don't think I came upon the idea from nowhere so I doubt I'm the only one with the misconception. If you know, it behooves you to explain beyond your modest post.
>>18532167Wrong.>>18532134The Velites were dissolved after the Mariana reforms, with nothing to do with equipment or even financial conditions.
>>18532134I don't know but based on other unit types that went by the wayside it could be a few things. It may not have been a conscious reform of the legions, as they conquered new lands they find local troops that serve a similar purpose but do it more effectively. This is how old empires would work, whatever locals would specialize in gets worked into the existing military structure.
>>18532134The expression "on the front line and pursuing individual combat" seems to be very much in the style of the Mannerbund
>>18532134Say you can theoretically supply 10k men on a campaign. You're fully capable of outfitting all of them as heavy infantry, why would you consider spending any of that 10k number on mediocre skirmishers? That's what the auxilia are for.You're way better off giving all your heavy infantry a few pilum to chuck, their shields and armor make them pretty stout against foot skirmishers in general and the pilum can get them to fuck off.If any of the pre reform infantry would have maybe made sense to keep, it would be the Triarii. Stout veterans in the best of the best armor with good spears and big shields. The kind of guys you want making up the rear so the younger, less experienced troops up front have someone to fall back to if required. Whether or not it's better to just disperse these guys into the legion ranks is debatable I guess.In an age before you could mass outfit your infantry all as heavy infantry, before good cavalry because fairly commonplace, Velites made sense. But they ran their course of usefulness.
>>18532134Something I find useful to reiterate is that the rorarii, later called velites, were mainly composed of younger citizens who still needed to accumulate wealth.
>>18532239This
>>18532239Open warfare and battles represented only a small part of warfare in the early Roman period. Instead, annual raids took place, likely carried out by the rorarii (velites), who gained prominence in Roman society by plundering neighboring communities.
>>18532226>Wrong.see:>>18532210You're also wrong. Completely wrong in fact.
>>18532239>You're fully capable of outfitting all of them as heavy infantryBased on this thread it seems the soldiers outfitted themselves. So this didn't seem to play much of a factor.
It was a traditional thing for young men, boys really, to fight it out like this in skirmish and scout out the enemy lines to prod for weakness.They would let the older men do the subsequent heavy lifting.Basically they can run pretty fast, so that's good. But they might not have it in them just yet to actually stand in pitched battle, which requires discipline and experience.It was almost ritualized.When the legions became heavily standardized in the late Republic this tradition fell out of favor.
>>18532134they stopped being furries
>>18532301It's not the outfitting alone, but imperial Rome eventually stopped making each man supply themselves with kit. It's the food, water, etc. You're limited by your supplies so why waste them on light peltasts of all things?
>>18532134Velites were it used in the first place because not everyone had the means needed to buy the equipment required to stand in the main battle line. Light infantry=too poor to be heavy infantry in most societies rather than any sort of serious tactical niche or need. Rome simply stopped fielding them as it was wealthy enough that every legionary had or was issued armor. For their actual light infantry needs, they could just recruit from cultures that were much better at those methods of war.
>>18532992>For their actual light infantry needs, they could just recruit from cultures that were much better at those methods of war.Yeah but then those Germanic auxiliaries came to dominant the late Roman military. After mogging everyone else in the Med except for the Persians they should've reinstituted the light infantry to fight the German hordes instead of send expensive legions after them every time to come back with no spoils since they were wealthless tribesmen
>>18532301By the time the legions are reformed into professional forces, people were "buying" equipment by simply having their pay offset, so it's absolutely a factor. A pubic wars era legionary had what he could buy on his own. A legionary post marius could be fucking broke and still "buy" a full panoply, he just isn't going to see any pay for quite a while.
>>18532999Anon no. For one, the germanics that toppled the empire were not light infantry, they flat out adopted roman equipment and methods of fighting.Second the idea that they utterly took over military duties is outdated, he Romans themselves kept fielding legions, the fall of western Rome is way more complex than what you're thinking.
>>18533000>A pubic wars era legionaryI would've served under Hirsutia Flavia, the upstart empress.
Now why did they shift from using pilum to using fucking darts?
>>18533036The point of pilae was to weight down enemies' shields. If one were fighting purely defensively, then removing the shafts entirely in favor of just the heavy lead dart means a single soldier could be more effective.
>>18533037More effective, as in, one could carry more lead to throw downrange, whereas pilae shafts make them physically harder to hold in large amounts.
>>18533002>For one, the germanics that toppled the empire were not light infantry, they flat out adopted roman equipment and methods of fighting.That's not true. Why do you keep lying around??
>>18532239Warfare on land was limited to a few battles, many small skirmishes, and sieges. Ultimately, the Romans managed to build their own navy, defeated the Carthaginians, and won the war but suffered enormous losses themselves.Both states were financially and demographically exhausted
>>18533036Their darts are gnarly as fuck, anon. And you can lob them way further. Either way, missile weapons are more for harassing an enemy than outright killing them. So you're better off with half a dozen darts that can still fuck somebody up if one lands.Also slingers were the real prized skirmishers of antiquity because they were outright lethal and required very little to equip. Pretty much everyone used them.
>>18532134they didn't have prestige, that was the whole point of the velites. They earned prestige in the battlefield through individual bravery. I don't think the velites dissappeared entirely, they were mostly from outside the city so they became auxiliar units to the roman legions. Later in the roman army of the Dominate Period there are several units especialized in throwing javelins and similar projectiles from behind the heavy infantryI couldn't find a picture, but there was a lot of specialized units clasified as light units supporting the heavy infantry, making the roman shieldwall a lot more dangerous than before
Everyone here pretends to be an expert, but they should all bang your heads against the wall and calm down.First of all, do you know exactly how the velites were organized and their usefulness on the battlefield? They were ideal for quick ambushes or incursions into enemy territory. On the battlefield, they played an important and underestimated role. They fired and targeted the enemy with short darts and lead slingshots. The velites were a remnant of a Roman military organization system based on economic class, before the disgusting and vile Greejeet cancer penetrated Italy. Now, to answer the OP, unlike what the "experts" are saying or barking here, it's more complicated than that. You guys are just echoing Brunt's ideas, but in reality, "the lower classes" began to actively avoid enlisting for military service in the 2nd century BC because they didn't want to be sent to Iberia, for example, and it simply wasn't worth it. And summarizing everything as reform and equipment demonstrates that not everyone should comment here, because many reforms attributed to Marius, the worm, were actually more systemic. Increasingly, Roman citizens found it unpleasant and pointless to serve as infantry soldiers, and young men were finding new, more useful ways to rise to power through the cursus honorum the cavalry of the Roman nobility was disappearing
>>18533098Based Italians here I feel nostalgia for the Republican and pre-Republican tactics. The Italians wanted to make LARP out of these pederasts with piss-smelling groins while spitting on all their ancient heritage... I'm not against reform, but what happened was simply a copy of Greek garbage Individual bravery and heroism were increasingly seen as "barbaric" by the Semites of the Balkans, aka Greek the velites and even cavalry from specialized clans gradually followed the Balkan Semitic (Greek) modus operandi of outsourcing everything. So they used cavalry and light infantry from other peoples and even Saaryrian archers garbage. Not to mention those toothless, shit-breathing Anatolians who invaded Italy in that stinking Empire that was no longer Italian. It was globalist Semitic (Greek) garbage. Fuck emperors and hail Romulus, Our King, The liberator, Our father. Romulus and Remus would weep looking at the garbage that was the empire. Garbage. Garbage.
>>18533098>>18533114what's with this schizo samefagging?
>>18533346That's not me, you retard
>>18533036Two projectiles at most that are large and cumbersome vs 5 with greater range.
thinking out of my ass- Romans in their military counts would flat not count auxiliary troops of non romans in official counts. So if real Romans stopped being velites, those skirmishers could still be there, but nobody officially cares- Roman army started using cavalry more after 2 century BC. So now you have cavalry to protect heavy infantry's weakness (slow), why do we need those weak looking utility units
>>18533098>>18533114>Mentally ill wignats made up narrative about Republican/Imperial RomansI wish you'd at least be coherent with your retarded narrative and shut up about the Romans altogether since 99% of the stuff from the Romans (be it monuments, architecture, literature, historical texts, etc) comes from the ''vile'', ''semitic'', ''disgusting'' Imperial Era
>>18533098>>18533114Which x.com gc did you come from, xis? You remind me of certain mentally ill retards I used to know.
It has been said that roman velites ceased to be used in their empire, but the causes for this are unknown. Certain theories arise to explain this fact. Consider the following. Imagine a small piece of shit, known only to its few nearest neighbors. If any other pieces of shit exist in the area, they can join and become a slightly bigger piece of shit. Now, there is a medium sized piece of shit, with a greater number of neighbors. If any other pieces of shit exist in this larger area, they can join and become a larger piece of shit. Imagine a huge piece of shit, known to everyone to be a piece of shit. The roman empire was ruined by welfare.
