There's a reason they call it the Bronze Age Mindset

>>18532358
Bronze Age Grindset*

>Cue phonk music

>>18532351
The part that stuck with me the most is in the odyssey when mankind is compared to leaves on a tree. Leaves grow in spring and in autumn fall. Likewise, each generation of man is born, grows up, then is cut down. Homer's outlook was not one of progress, and that is clear in the Odyssey's disturbing ending. People don't tend to talk about what happens after the slaying of the suitors, but they should, I think its really important. After torturing to death the slaves who served the suitors, the suitors' families show up at the palace, furious that their king took the best of a generation with him to Troy, then only he returned and immediately committed another massacre of his own people. Odysseus in response gets ready to fight yet another battle, and it is only the intervention of athena who calls a temporary truce to allow the suitors to be buried that there is a momentary pause in the fighting.

There is no finality here, just more pointless war. That is the bronze age mindset.

>>18532358
It's just odd to me that Homer talks a ton about how each person slain had their own life and people who loved them, how their deaths were tragedies, and repeatedly calls war disgusting and "man wasting", the bane of all mankind, but somehow still holds a positive opinion of characters like Odysseus and Agamemnon who are bloodthirsty warmongers themselves.

>>18532399
>but somehow still holds a positive opinion of characters like Odysseus and Agamemnon
source?

>>18532351
It makes sense when you realize the Greeks of this time were tribal era retards and the kings were rulers of pissant lands which were nothing compared to those who came after them. It's why homer keeps going on about how much sheep one retard had and how another retard stole them from him

>>18532351
At the end of the Iliad, Priam does successfully appeal to Achilles's empathy. To me it's a powerful moment precisely because it seems to transcend the entire ethos of the rest of the poem. After 23 long books of blood, glory, and rage, it ends with two men putting aside their pride to beg for and give just a tiny bit of mercy.

>>18532394
I didn't think the truce at the end was temporary. Is there a myth that gives an account of renewed fighting afterward?

>>18532399
That's sort of the paradox at the heart of the Iliad: the suffering of war is very real but so is the glory gained by it and the thrist for victory. War is hell, but there's nothing greater you can be in life than someone who comes out of that hell victorious. It was a way of life in a lawless, dog eat dog world where having to fight for anything you want was a given, basically >>18532428

>>18532443
>I didn't think the truce at the end was temporary. Is there a myth that gives an account of renewed fighting afterward?
There's actually an entire epic book, now lost, that came after the odyssey about Odysseus suddenly deciding to leave Ithaca to go up to the balkans where he marries and impregnates a queen there, starts a war in which his new queen is killed, goes back to Ithaca where Telegonus, another abandoned child of his, is ransacking the island in search of Odysseus but unwittingly kills Odysseus not realizing who he is. He then takes Odysseus' body along with Penelope and Telemachus to Circe's island where Circe makes them immortal, and Telemachus marries Circe, and Telegonus marries Penelope. With a plot like that, I think it may have been lost for a reason.

There's a good discussion of it here, in this episode of the literature and history podcast
https://literatureandhistory.com/episode-014-the-autumn-leaves/

Start reading at "The Odyssey and the Telegony" about 3/4 of the way down.

>>18532351
>Iliad
you mean Ilias
>Greeks
you mean Helenes

>>18532394
>Homer's
Homeros

>>18532351
>what's the difference between them and pirates?
The Ilias is just fiction
do you think everyone in the Caribean is Johnny Depp in rags fighting skeletons?

>>18532351
Why are you implying that life needs to have anything more than those 4 morals?
Those aligned with the golden rule.

Dosen't homer glaze the Trojans too? I don't think you can acuse him of only having a bias on the greek warmongers.

>>18532513
>>18532510
>ilias
What language is that? You mean Ilion.

>>18532351
That's the whole extend of international law, yes.

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>>18532351
>what's the difference between them and pirates?

Difference? Some pirates were not so brutal as Achaeans.

>>18532399
Odysseus and Agamemnon were fighting a noble war. They fought for the return of a lovely queen unjustly stolen.

On a more spiritual level, they are ghosts of the priestly kings and roving warriors who dominated and protected the weak, lowly herders and cultivators of ancient European society.
Paris scorned Hera, who offered kingship, and Athena, who promised military prowess, in his Judgement, and succumbed to the promise of Aphrodite, a Goddess of non-European origin, to give him the love of the loveliest woman.

Odysseus and Agamemnon restore the honor of kings and warriors, they rightfully avenge Hera and Athena.

>>18532648
>inane babble
>hera and Athena not being cunts themselves
>aphrodite non european
>protected the weak
Did you even read the book, nigger? Troy would've felt the wrath of the gods no matter who Paris would've chosen

>>18532351
I don't know how you wouldn't know this, but the Iliad does originate from the actual piratical raids the Greeks carried out during the Bronze Age Collapse. Greece emerged from that collapse centuries later as a noble and beautiful society, the most advanced in art in the world during its lifetime.

Homer pondered how that those savage and devastating raids that reduced the world to such a primitive state -- cities of bronze and fine timber and jewelry and Minoan frescoes reverted to stone-and-bone -- resulted in such a flowering of glory.

There were the obvious notions, of a karmic cycle of life, death, and rebirth, or of farm lands growing fallow and needing to be refertilized, or the coming of the Hericlaidae to replace the old rotten Myceneans - and Homer REJECTED these notions. They're BORING.

He was bold enough to declare that these ancient roving Greeks were heroes setting the Earth straight. The cities they torched were full of disgusting, weak, decaying dredges of humanity. Telemann Ajax saw a horde of Ugaritic scribes carving out hentai fertility goddesses and he threw a giant rock at them and splattered their brains. The tempermental, mysterious warrior Achilles cleansed the earth of cucked wifeguyfaggots like Hector.

>>18532653
Read Dumezil nigger before ever replying to me

>>aphrodite non european
Yes you illiterate faggot, why do you think she has no lineage and just appears out of the ocean? Why does she have no cognate in any other IE religion? She is Ishtar. Retard

>Troy would've felt the wrath of the gods no matter who Paris would've chosen
Utter meta-narrative nonsense. Yeah I'm sure Homer told you that.

>>18532660
>inb4 Venus is her cognate hue hue
Yeah yeah you know what I meant. Norse, Vedic, Celtic, Slavic, etc.

>>18532648
we wuzzing filth

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>do NOT say the Greeks were European
>they were obviously a race of fairy people who popped into existence out of the skull of the first Based Medbro who pwned those filthy nordicistniggers for daring to suggest Greeks might be related to their linguistic, genetic, mythological, and cultural cousins
>do NOT identify any parallels between cultures, what are you some kind of fucking history nerd? You are we wuzzing.

Based MedChad reads Herodotus's Scythian founding myth where their first king was the man who could pick up a chieftan's goblet, a warrior's axe, and a farmer's plow that had all fallen from heaven. For a split second he compares the trifunctional nature to that of the Judgement of P., and begins to wonder if there might be any relation. After all, our modern religious texts give us insight into what our ancient society was like, so maybe the ancient societies' religious tales were glimpses of an even more archaic past.

But he quickly catches himself. "Whew, I almost we wuzzed there for a second!" I must confess to Taleb

>>18532679
>do NOT say the Greeks were European
ofc greeks are european.i m saying you are not european, we wuzzer. europe is their word and concept. you didnt exist in the ancient world. you only usurped that name in the middle ages along side others, so as to fabricate for yourselves an ancient pedigree and connection to the ancient world you didnt have.

>>18532685
You clearly understood what I meant (Aphrodite was just the Greeks allowing Ishtar, a Semitic Goddess, into their pantheon) but from now on I'll call them the Proto-Nordics just to piss you off. Have fun obsessing over labels you brainless faggot.

>>18532687
>Aphrodite was just the Greeks allowing Ishtar
how is she ishtar?

>pedigree
What is this retarded projection? I don't need any connection to any historical people to feel good about myself. I'm not a troon or a bigger, I'm comfortable in my own skin. I don't need to take HRT or to assault a Chinese grandma or to "identify" with a stolen "pedigree". I like the Greeks, because they were cool. Not because I think they were my grand daddies.

The Greeks had Indo-European blood, the blood that coursed through the veins of autist meek Scandinavians, and has been diluted to the point of vanishing from the veins of Indians. Truth hurts.

>>18532351
>There seemed to be absolutely no rules about theft, rape, violence, or enslavement
Of course there were rules about these, but this was war. Rape, violence, and enslavement were all seen as a normal part of war, back then. Rape was how you let the soldiers blow off steam, especially after a lengthy, costly siege. The army would be incredibly angry over having to put up with a siege for so long, and so would the commander for that matter, and it would be expected also to punish the city for not capitulating immediately. Thus: the men would be allowed to rampage for a while, perhaps a few days, looting, killing, and raping to sate their bloodlust.

This was seen as perfectly normal up until the modern era, and if a commander didn't allow this, he was seen as uncommonly merciful. If he was actually successful in restraining his men from doing this, he was seen as extraordinarily masterful in his discipline.

And slavery was just a a part of the normal economy in the bronze and iron ages. It had no evil stigma attached to it, really.

>>18532660
>meta narrative
Homer himself shows that the gods were divided over the Trojans and Greeks. Zeus weighs the life of his son Sarpedon against what the fates wove for troy and the decisions of the other gods to bless their champions. You should kys, that would spare the world from your asinine babble
>>18532687
>umm ackshually you shouldn't care about labels between Nordic and Mediterranean
>but you should care for the label of aphrodite not being a Greek God because Ishtar fulfilled a similar role in the levantine religions
>>18532691
>I don't need to relate to long dead peoples
>let me tell you that the true aryans are the Nordics even though the word Aryan has its origin in Sanskrit and Iranian
All we wuzzers must fucking hang

>>18532691
>The Greeks had Indo-European blood
not that much. barely even.

>>18532689
Greeks traded with Phoenicians and were polite enough to allow Ishtar into their pantheon. They renamed her Aphrodite. Thats why she has no relation to any of the other gods and why her story feels so jarring (Cronos's entrails fell into the ocean and out of the foam came this sexy wench!)

The Greek colonies in Asia Minor were old, as old as Sparta and Athens I think, so these things happened very early on in the classical era. colonization happened from the very start of Classical Greece.

>>18532697
why did they rename her something completely unrelated to her original name. they didnt do the same with apollo or athena or adonis or any other foreign deity they adopted. what aspects or mythological narrative of aphrodite are the same or similar enough to proove she is ishtar.

>>18532695
They just copied Ishtar from the Phoenicians.

That's not the same as Ares and Indra and Thor, and Mithra-Varuna and Zeus-Hera and Odin-Tyr being descendants of the same original pantheon.

You know that's true, you're trying to lie to yourself for the purposes of a flame war

>true Aryans
No you dumb faggot, Aryans were a culture that came a thousand years after the breakup of the Proto-Indo-European community. You'd know that if you cared about history.

Ahahaha I knew the Nordic thing would make you seethe.

The Aryans' ancestor culture was Northern European btw. The progression was Corded Ware (centered in Norther Europe) to Fatyanovo to Andronovo to Indo-Aryan. You can brownly fact check this with ChatGPT or grok or whatever else you use btw, and they will agree with me.
>>18532696
Yes that's part of what makes them so interesting IMO. The steppe blood with Aegean artistry and wisdom

>>18532605
>What language is that?
Attic Greek

>the gods were divided over the Trojans and Greeks
Yeah man Hera and Athena are the ones most passionately on the side of the Greeks. Who was it on the side of the Trojans? Oh yes, Aphrodite and Ares (whose wanton bloodlust is castigated by Zeus, again the wretched nature of the Trojans carrying out a devastating war for the sake of love-fertility-herdlike behavior).

That's funny isn't it? Might it tell us something about the significance of the Judgement?

>>18532702
>the ancestors of the aryans were the Nordics
>I have no identity of my own so I relate to the tribals and steppenigs of yore while larping as a people who always identified themselves with Iran and India
Since the ancestors of the Nordics were the Africans, would you bow down and worship them? Keep we wuzzing, retard. Every AI will tell you the word Aryan comes from Iranian and Sanskrit not your we wuzzing rootless mutt identity

>>18532709
>Since the ancestors of the Nordics were the Africans, would you bow down and worship them? Keep we wuzzing, retard
>identity

That's the funny thing, I would never deny Africans are the ancestors of the Nordic race. But you'd deny that the Aryans' (but not the Greeks, they came straight from Yamnaya) ancestors were Northern European. Because I just like to find out the truth about history, you need it to conform to whatever satisfies your search for identity.

Indo-Aryans had Western Hunter Gatherer blood. Where'd they get that? From India? Or maybe Iran?

If you've done some excavations that prove the Aryans didn't have ancestors in Northern Europe, please publish them, you'd get an instant professorship at Harvard.

>>18532705
>hera
>Athena
>poseidon
>hephaestus
Greek
>aphrodite
>apollo
>Artemis
>ares
>Leto
How convenient you'd forget apollo and Artemis. It's also strange that rhe reason Athena and hera side against troy is because Paris chose aphrodite. If he chose Athena then he'd probably have been made impotent by aphrodite and hera would've hounded him regardless like she hounded herakles. Maybe you're missing the point of the fickle nature of the gods homer tried to portray but considering that you're a we wuzzer, your IQ is obviously low

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>>18532648
>Agamemnon
>fighting a noble war

Lol

>>18532713
Since everyone is everyone else's cousin, why don't you advocate for open borders and universal brotherhood? Or is your concept of a nationality preventing you from doing that? What separates an African from a European or an Indian from Iranian if this supposed heroic Aryan blood flows through everyone since their ancestors came out of Africa? What makes your claim that the Nordics are Aryan more valid than a Nigerian saying he's Aryan as well?

>>18532714
Of course Apollo sides with the Trojans you fucking mong, he's the god of order. Troy is the emblem of the sedentary, farming, herder-cultivator. Did you not understand what I was getting at with the tripartition? That's the point! The priestly kings and wandering warriors, the spirits of the steppe, defeat the third function, the orderly sedentary farmers.

Now you are literally fantasizing about hypothetical alternate Iliads as if that means anything other than cope.

Hephaestus sides with the Greeks partly for Thetis and partly for Hera, again helping my case.

throwing up your arms and saying "they're fickle, it's random, we don't know why, it could have been different" is obscurantist oriental nonsense

>>18532719
>more asinine babble over steppe vs sedentary
>completely misses the points homer himself makes, calls it oriental nonsense
Schizo or hasn't read the book

>>18532718
You are trooning out over a simple fact. In the 3rd millennium BC, a nomadic warrior horseman culture we call Corded Ware exploded out of Northern Europe, conquered the steppe, and several generations later continued into Iran and India. This is just a fact of history.

Open borders psychotic nonsense and Africans are totally irrelevant.

Remember this all started because I dared to call Aphrodite Semitic-derived and to identify archaic Greek society as tripartite.

>>18532723
>homers message is that there's no message. It's all random and inexplicable bro
Buddhist obscurantist nonsense. You can tell I've read the book because I keep correcting you.

Why are so many of the Mycenean Greek words that are identifiably non-Indo-European in origin related to flora and fauna local to Greece, (hyacinth, fig, olive, cypress, marjoram, chickpea, parsnip) or words of material culture, like tin, bronze, lead, jar, oil flask, cornice, chamber, bath tub, brick? But the core of the language is Indo-European? What might that indicate?

>>18532724
Your brain is poisoned over haploautism. You'll tell me that the myth of the abrahamic religions is about the tribal customs of the Israelis and Jesus was a figure representing the triumph of ethnonationalism over the multiculturalism of Rome or some shit
>>18532725
>there is no message is what you're trying to say
Holy ETL. The point is that the gods are fickle, they'll help one mortal rise to greatness while punishing him tomorrow or punish him today and make him great later. Poseidon punishes the Greek fleet by throwing a storm at them and killing Ajax for boasting. Achilles is given martial prowess but laments his fate in the underworld. Zeus loves Sarpedon but he lets him get killed. He even allows diomedes to wound ares to teach him a lesson even though he never threw him out of Olympus for his transgressions. You might be an actual sperg

I'm a medchad and I defend my national epic against Nordic wewuzzers. The epic that we don't know anything about except that everything's random and inscrutable and we don't know man it's like....fickle.

My precious national epic that could have been totally different and I wouldn't mind. The gods could have all been switched, and it'd be basically the same to me. That one.

>>18532729
>haploautism
We knew about Corded Ware being ancestral to the Indo-Aryans long before DNA testing. Anthony's book came out in 2007. Mallory's came out in 1989. More cope

You've listed a bunch of anecdotes from the books to make the core point that the gods are unpredictable. They operate on a whim. They're random. They love someone one day then devastate them the next. It's all ironic.

It's fine to observe that but if that's THE message of the books to you then that's just nothing, there's nothing there except entropic random hijinks. You stick your head in the sand about any deeper message because then it might be interesting on a grander scale than kooky hypocrisy.

I am a nordchad. My interpretation that the Iliad is a work representing the conflict between steppe and sedentary is illuminary. I will further assert that Christianity is about ethnonationalism vs multiculturalism. It is also true that Buddhism was a class struggle between the bourgeois aryans and the proletariat Buddhists. This interpretation of history is correct even if the authors and founders of these movements make the message clear. Viewing history and mythos from the lens of modern politics is heckin based and valid!

Your six year old son comes up to you and asks "If Hector is such a patriot and a loyal family man and a good guy, and Achilles has such a capricious, vainglorious temper, how come Achilles wins? Why did the author do that?"

And you say "because it is....LE RANDOM!!"

>>18532737
Lmao fucking retard. Learn reading comprehension. And why was it that Hector the based and virtuous family man who massacred the greeks till he reached their ships was brutally killed and humiliated by Achilles? Why did le gods who desire virtue from men help the hedonist Achilles kill Hector?

>>18532736
I appreciate the imitation. But steppe and sedentary were archaic themes at the time of the composition of the Iliad. It is literally the complete opposite of projecting modern politics onto a myth.

A myth cannot help but describe an archaic form of society. It's enforced by the nature of what it is.

It also at times contains contemporary anachronisms (the patriarchs ride camels in the Bible before they were in the Levant because it wasn't written until much later) but they never contain futurisms.

We inevitably learn about Bronze and Stone Age society when reading the Bible. Proto-Indo-Europeans and North American Indians both had hellhound myths and both descended from the Malt'a Burets culture. This is what it means to be a historian

It's ironic that you couldn't grasp that, and thought it was the same thing as projecting communism and fascism onto myths,

>>18532738
.....because Achilles the emblem of warriors is nobler in his quest to return the stolen queen than Hector the emblem of the herder-cultivator is in his quest to drag down the warriors and priestly kings? And that's how Greeks understood the world? Hello anyone home? How many more times?

>>18532739
That's the analysis of what those myths could represent, not what the myths themselves are saying. If you told the early Christians or jews their religion was about resisting roman/greek/persian/babylonian imperialism rather than worshipping God and virtue, they'd call you a retard
>>18532740
Achilles was there for glory and loot not out of some great sense of duty to agamemmnon or menalaus

If anyone is going to be accused of Negrophilia and deconstructionist open borders nonsense, it should probably be the guy who thinks the Greek Gods were just permanently ironic and fickle and never seriously wanted the Greeks to win. And that Greek culture was exclusively about how much your gods embarrass you and pull pranks on you

Like how does that not sound like anti-white nonsense?

>>18532741
I've been consistently careful to talk about emblems representations and symbols when using the tripartition theory

Are we really at the point of "your theory of their spirit only concerns their spirit and therefore it is wrong"?

I'm interested in what was stirring in their souls when they weaved this shocking tale. Not what was explicitly crossing the mind of every filthy helot.

If we cared about what was actually going through the minutae of their daily experience, we would do the Marxist thing where we replaced classics with proletariat hobby studies
>glory
Yes that is the point thank you for agreeing with me. It is both warriors, Athena, and kings, Hera. Not just one or the other. Achilles seeks imperishable glory, Agammemnon seeks justice
>loot
No, they offer him all the loot they have plus the girl if he'd just come back to the fight and he refuses. It's only when Patroclus dies and Hector takes his armor

>>18532743
You worship a Semitic God over Zeus. You're as anti white as it gets

>>18532750
I'm not Greek, why should I worship Zeus?
In fact I don't worship anything. I find a great sense of justice and purpose, of the right path through life, from the Bible. I don't sacrifice a goat or a lamb to a God because His cult is the most based and EVROPEAN cult to worship. I just read a book that I found clarifying, and I occasionally listen to a (white and European) preacher. This is what millions of other white people do every day, and it is what was done at the pinnacle of the white world. When it fell out of practice, that world began to disintegrate.

>>18532443
>there's nothing greater you can be in life than someone who comes out of that hell victorious
Idk maybe you could be homer and be famous forever without shedding a single drop of blood

Odysseus threw hektor's child off the ramparts of troy and never gave it a second thought. Honestly based

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OP here: What an absolutely dogshit thread, nothing but race obsessed pseuds larping and trying to one up each other. I'm willing to bet half of you haven't even read Homer. In the future I'll take all discussion of the classics to /lit/, it's still a shithole but far better than this

>>18532399
Ancient peoples, including Homer, did not view these as contradictory viewpoints. The man who can ride out and slay 50 people alone is as much a protector of the tribe as he was a butcher of men. The characteristics that lead to exaltation in battle and triumph over the enemy are the same characteristics that lead to murder, madness, and tragedy. While it is great that your people are secured, it is a shame that people not too different from yourself died in fear and pain for it, and while the man that did it should be celebrated for his strength and bravery, you should always know that he is still a killer for personal gain.

>>18532351
>no rules about theft, rape, violence, or enslavement that don't relate to those.
Those things are bad when you do them to me and good when they happen to you. Stupid goyim.

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>>18532351
you are glimpsing into the fact that you follow slave morality, while those people followed master morality. Your slave morality is designed to see master morality as evil. I could poorly explain it further, but you should simply read a short book called "On the Genealogy of Morality" by Nietzsche and you'll understand... not just why those warriors thought the way that did, but more importantly why you are baffled that those warriors thought so different from you.

>>18532394
deep, I will remember this post

>>18532351
Ancient Greece was a savage nigger culture that is hard carried by Herodotus, Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. Without them they would just be remembered as the thieving gay kid diddlers they were. Literary Turk tier.

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>>18533260
See you soon.

>>18532679
What?