Let's use the Vandal kingdom as example >be Vandals, germanic tribe (worship germanic gods, speak germanic language)>Huns appear, want refugee in the lands of your main rival (Roman Empire) >get Pannonia (low populated province, but fertile) in exchange for joining the army (became Roman citizens thanks to the Edict of Caracalla)>gave to the Empire great men such as Flavius Stilicho>Huns steal Pannonia, time to move somewhere else>well, actually there are more than just one Vandal tribe, good luck trying to see who is who>somehow they managed to defeat multiple Roman armies and guarnitions, moved throw the Empire and conquered most of Hispania alongside Suebians and Alans (iranians, not germanics)>only 80k people, only 10k soldiers, how they conquered and controlled all that (80k Vandals vs million Hispanians)? don't know, don't ask questions just consoom "History">how they renewed their heavy loses despite they refused to mix with Romans (don't ask with the next generations had black hair and dark eyes) and were so few? don't know (they hired Kaminoans)>conquered all north Africa (well, actually depends on the map you check) despite 0 naval experience and the heavy resistance of Romano-Berbers (they were never defeated nor surrendered, and yet their territories appeared under Vandal control somehow)>make Carthage their capital (Baal Hammon's and Hannibaal's revenge electric boogaloo)>GERMANIC kingdom (forget about the Alan (iranian) part of it) that refused to adopt anything Roman (except the Latin language, arian christianity, titles, names, customs, fashion, administrative division, etc.)>few decades later they were defeated by a Roman boyo, Belisarius, and his ONLY 17k soldiers (despite previous Romans with larger and more experienced armies could not), and conquered all their kingdomNow try to analize the rest of the "barbarian" (despite they already use Latin language and Roman customs) kingdoms. Forget about the titanic plotholes.
>>18534435>>get Pannonia (low populated province, but fertile) in exchange for joining the army (became Roman citizens thanks to the Edict of Caracalla)This never happened, and that's not how becoming a citizen worked. Living in the empire did not make them citizens, they had to be explicitly granted it. Caracalla's edict made it so that most assumed another was a Roman citizen, but it was just a one time grant, it wasn't applied constantly. The Vandals that invaded Hispania only crossed the Rhine in 406, they never even made a treaty with the Roman state and remained hostile until the end of the West.
>>18534435yes stuff like this make me think Fomenko was right
>>18534435Wait untill you learn about the Slavic migrations.>Be proto-Baltic tribe.>Move South and mix with some Balkan Thracians.>Countless steppe nomads invade your territory and enslave you.>You still manage to outnumber anyone around you including Germans, Finns and Balts.
>>18534435OP confirmed total retard. At least attempt to read history first.
>>18534541>>You still manage to outnumber anyone around you including Germans, Finns and Balts.Germans, Finns and Balts should've tried having sex.
>>18534502>but it was just a one time grant, it wasn't applied constantly.Dude, the next emperors never undid this edict, they needed it to expand the base for their tax system.Basically the West right now >import as many migrants as possible >forget about the integration, they "will" do it somehow in the future >think only in taxes and GDP
>>18534545Ok, answer this then.>>somehow they managed to defeat multiple Roman armies and guarnitions, moved throw the Empire and conquered most of Hispania alongside Suebians and Alans (iranians, not germanics)>>only 80k people, only 10k soldiers, how they conquered and controlled all that (80k Vandals vs million Hispanians)? don't know, don't ask questions just consoom "History">>how they renewed their heavy loses despite they refused to mix with Romans (don't ask with the next generations had black hair and dark eyes) and were so few? don't know (they hired Kaminoans)>>conquered all north Africa (well, actually depends on the map you check) despite 0 naval experience and the heavy resistance of Romano-Berbers (they were never defeated nor surrendered, and yet their territories appeared under Vandal control somehow)
>>18535027>only 80k people, only 10k soldiers, how they conquered and controlled all that (80k Vandals vs million Hispanians)? It's called, "the roman soldiers ran away or were bribed because the empire was decadent and collapsing anyways"
>>18535024He's saying the edict made the population of the empire at the time citizens, it did not automatically grant citizenship to anyone immigrating later.
>>18534520His deconstruction isn't bad and he makes some valid arguments, however his reconstruction is pure retardation.
>>18534435>>be Vandals, germanic tribe (worship germanic gods, speak germanic language)doubt
>>18534520>>18535059
>>18534435>>18535027You need to stop thinking about these events like perfectly organized ethnonationalist warfare between two hiveminds that are equally committed to fighting. Your framing of their conquest of Hispania makes it seem like every single soul in the peninsula rose up in a patriotic fury against them and they still managed to defeat millions of people and the most loyal, battle-hardened Roman armies when it reality it probably just looked something like this:>vandals show up>some roman garrison or army give token resistance but they don't really care>vandals beat one or two armies, locals don't give a shit if they're paying taxes to vandals or a roman governor, hell they might even prefer living under vandals depending on how corrupt the local romans wereIt's like calling into question how quickly Alexander the Great conquered Egypt, how he did not lose thousands of soldiers sieging city after city while Egyptians throw army after army against him like an anthill not concerned about losses when we know the Egyptian elites literally just offered the entire kingdom to him without bloodshed after he defeated the Persians.
>>18535661>You need to stop thinking about these events like perfectly organized ethnonationalist warfare between two hiveminds that are equally committed to fighting.You are talking to someone whose IQ does not meet these requirements.
>>18535661>hell they might even prefer living under vandals depending on how corrupt the local romans wereNobody actually preferred living under the Germanic peoples. In fact all we get is complaining about how incompetent and arbitrary they were as rulers and wanted Roman authority to return. They were demilitarised and had no way of fighting back without the state, but that doesn't mean they liked it. In Northern Gaul, where they did become militarised, they violently resisted Germanic invaders for decades on their own and willingly received men sent from court to rule them and followed orders despite their defacto independence,
>>18535032or switched teams
>>18534435Land of the Vandals (zutted by white cock)
>>18535027The Empire was in complete caos and often prioritized fighting usurpers over barbarians. The Vandals themselves were allowed to migrate in Africa with the help of a local usurper that wanted to use them as mercenariesBesides that, the Vandals were leaded for over 50 years by possible the greatest man of the fifth Century: GensericThe amount of achievement he achieved with a overall minor germanic tribe is absurd, as well as his anime shounen protagonist-tier plot armor
>>18535661>You need to stop thinking about these events like perfectly organized ethnonationalist warfare between two hiveminds that are equally committed to fighting. Your framing of their conquest of Hispania makes it seem like every single soul in the peninsula rose up in a patriotic fury against them and they still managed to defeat millions of people and the most loyal, battle-hardened Roman armiesWell, my History books are narrated in that way, it's difficult to see it in a different way when all your books since your were kid (no matter if they were printed in 1860, 1960 or 2010) are written from that pov.Please, if you know good History books of that period, recommend me some.The worst part is if there is a film or show from this period, the script would be like this too (during Franco's era most "History" films were like this, so you can't escape them).
>>18536038>GensericFlavius Gaisericus, he was a Patrician Roman, Consul per Africa and Rex (for real, the Emperors of both parts recognised him as a prominent citizen of the Imperium).
>>18536054>Flavius GaisericusNobody uses that name in any source.>he was a Patrician RomanA title which he was never given.>Consul per AfricaHe was never given that title. The only official recgnition of Gaiseric was in a settlement 'treaty' after he had already conquered half of Africa and 'allowed' him to settle, which he broke after months. He was given no titles. Are you just writing fan fiction?>for real, the Emperors of both parts recognised him as a prominent citizen of the ImperiumThey did not. Gaiseric was never a citizen and the Vandals had terrible relations with both courts until its destruction by Justinian.
Genseric’s grandson rejected Arianism in favor of orthodox Christianity which is based. Sometimes we forget that when “Romans” fought “barbarians” there were Christians on both sides
>>18536054>the Emperors of both parts recognised him as a prominent citizen of the ImperiumOnly after he conquered the whole Africa in ten years; somehow made the berbers not chimp out for the first and last time in history and even recruited them for his pirate adventures; and after he repelled multiple Imperial reconquest invasions with massive armies that were bigger than the whole population of the Vandals As i said, his entire life feels like a Deus ex Macchina
>>18536049Herwig Wolfram's The Roman Empire and its Germanic people
>>18536054Romanised Germanic princes such as Flavius Stilicho, Odoaker, Theoderic, Clovis and Alaric were all recognised by the imperial court and can be seen as taking up the mantle of the empire, and some held the yearly consular dignities and were regarded as patricians, besides their high military ranks in the Roman military. Alaric I served as an officer under Theodosius I. And was recognised, even begrudgingly, as magister militum under Honorius, Clovis was made both patrician and consul and celebrated a general's triumph in Tours in 508 after donning the purple at the behest of an embassy sent by Anastasius I. In recognition of his conciliatory attitude towards the Gallo-Roman population, whom he was dependent on to govern his now de facto independent realm, de jure still part of the empire, or in recognition of the Eastern Roman Empire's supreme sovereignty, so I can see what perspective you are coming from. But Geiseric was definitely granted no such title, he was recognised as rex 'on' Roman soil, and despite the ‘eternal’ peace between the Vandals and the Imperial court established under Valentinian III, the kingdom, despite having cordial relations with the Romans inside it (especially due to an inefficiently run but continued Roman tax system), more or less proved a consistent thorn in their eyes. It's no surprise, then, that they (both the Western and Eastern courts) consistently (unlike Italy or Gaul) tried to bring it back under direct Imperial control, which happened under Belisarius, to the dismay of the now overtaxed Roman African population. Archaeologically, the end of Romanity in Africa traces its origins to Byzantine and Arab depredations.
>>18536196>Alaric I served as an officer under Theodosius I. And was recognised, even begrudgingly, as magister militum under HonoriusAlaric was not a Roman military officer. The arrangement between the two was that of an allied outsider in roughly the same vein as Constantius' treaty with the Goths after he defeated them, that they were liable to temporarily provide soldiers to fight for him but did not have any place in the Roman army and would be sent home after.>And was recognised, even begrudgingly, as magister militum under HonoriusHonorius and Stilicho never recognised him, his position as Magister was a hostile act by the Eastern court which granted it to him as a bribe, it gave him a hefty salary but gave him no real power over any Roman army or institution, all real power remained with the Comes of Illyria.
