>>18541357
The Bible literally never states that “Hell” is a real thing. In the Old Testament it says throughout numerous times that everyone just goes to “Sheol”, an underworld place of darkness where people sleep forever aka the grave. In the New Testament, literally the ONLY times anything like Hell is mentioned is in PARABLES by Jesus when he is referring to people or things being thrown into “the destroying fire” as in, a fiery pit outside a city to burn bodies or waste; a place of instant destruction. The only other reference is the lake of fire in Revelation into which the dragon, the beast, etc are thrown into which is the same kind of thing, a metaphorical place of instant annihilation. Hades and Tartarus are mentiond by Paul in his letters, but that's because he's literally writing to hellenistic Greco-Roman gentiles.

“Hell”, especially as imagined in modern pop culture consciousness, is literally not a thing in the Bible. Early Christians believed in Annihilationism, in which the souls of those punished by God will simply be destroyed and cease to exist. Curiously this is also what atheists believe happens after death.

>Christians if Jews are right:
>Christians if Muslims are right:
>Christians if Buddhists are right:
>Christians if Shintoists are right:
>Christians if Hindus are right:
>Christians if Zoroastrians are right:
>Christians if Egyptians are right:
>Christians if Norse are right:
>Christians if Greeks are right:
>Christians if Romans are right:
>Christians if Mayans are right:
>Christians if Jainists are right:
>Christians if JWs are right:
>Christians if Babylonians are right:
>Christians if Scientologists are right:

Presumably because you think it's true that there's no God

>>18541398
The christian mind cannot fathom not having a pragmatic transactional basis for propositional attitudes.

>>18541376
Cope

>>18541357
Christians realize there are thousands of other Hells in mythology besides their own, right? They're more likely to suffer in the afterlife than they think.

>>18541398
>it's true that there's no God
What would be the proof of that statement?

>>18541357
How do you know christianity is the right religion? What if both christians and atheists burn in hell because god is from some other faith christians rejected?

>>18541357
I'm a Christian but our systems can be a encompassing, especially Catholic or Mormon. Atheists challenge the "system" which can sometimes grant more freedom if people are using rigid legalism to dictate the tenants of our culture. Ofc this is now completely irrelevant now that fags took over.

>>18541357
An atheist is immune to the most powerful psyop weapon the jews have, God.

>>18541414
Why would you need proof to think that it's true? Most of your beliefs are supported by evidence, not by proofs.

>>18541357
Because atheism is true, and threats of your imaginary friend burning me in magic lava don't scare me, any more than a 2 year old saying the same thing would scare you.

>>18541357
The most accurate approach is Ecclesiastes 7:16 "…Do not be overly wise…"

>>18541376
I wonder if the idea of eternal suffering comes from european paganism then

>>18541357
Infinite number of religions = infinite chances that your personal religion is wrong. Both the top and the right of this image should just be hell. Christian's only explanation for why they're the true™ religion is just special pleading and circular logic

>>18541357
The interesting thing, the more I know about nowadays Christians, the more I am reassured that my fate will be far less gruesome than fate of an average Christian if they are right.

>>18541357
>Why should someone be an atheist?
because no religion can prove that its true. and you shouldnt believe things just because you want them to be true.

>>18541357
What happens to Christians if Muslims are right?

>>18541892
Christians already believe that the majority of people are going to hell but they're sociopaths so they never even consider the possibility that they might just be one of those people.

>>18541357
The top can't really capture someone realizing they wasted the only life they had simping for imaginary demons that some jew made up to trick them into wasting the one life they had giving all their resources to jews and cryptojews.

>>18541871
You can't prove anything true without invoking at least one of several logical fallacies according to agrippa's trillema.

>>18541940
that doesnt mean you get to choose anything as your starting point, especially not a very specific god of christianity.

>>18541962
Only dogmatic fallacies need a starting point, the other classes in agrippa's trilemma don't need starting points.

>>18541895
/thread

>>18541964
The trilemma just says "ultimately you can't prove anything foundational"
It does NOT say "all beliefs are equally valid". I would argue the vast majority of people agree on common sense reductionism. If I propose magical unicorns in a parallel dimension exist, you can't disprove it, but you would agree the usefulness of such a belief is 0.
Similar for godtards, they like to claim they are common sense reductionists, but stop at their godtard delusion because that's what they grew up with or were coerced into.

>>18541979
>It does NOT say "all beliefs are equally valid"
It says they are all equally fallacious in their foundations, they are equally not valid rather than equally valid.

>>18541984
>they are equally not valid rather than equally valid.
Same thing, my sophist little retard.
So since you unironically believe that, what makes your belief more correct than magical unicornism?

>>18541964
and how do you get to those other fallacies? by having a specific starting point in your world view that results in them, which is what i was talking about.

me being born in this world and pressuposing that i exist is far simpler than you believing that actually, that existence is a result of adam and eve and a omnipotent omnipresent omnibelevolent omniscient personal good natured god the christian trinity father son and holy spirit.

the fact that both there had to pressupose something doesnt mean you can't have an argument between the two. which you are avoiding to have since you cant even begin to prove why any of the above is the case, unlike me, who can do so more easily.

>>18541980
>and how do you get to those other fallacies?
By not having a dogmatic starting point and relying of circular or regressive fallacies instead of dogmatic ones.

>by having a specific starting point in your world view that results in them
No, in other cases, its turtles all the way down, no starting point or its a chicken/egg situation where either one can start with the other.

>me being born in this world and pressuposing that i exist
So you don't believe history existed, you think the world started to exist when you were born or there are a ton of wild assumption built into what you are claiming?

>you cant even begin to prove why any of the above is the case, unlike me, who can do so more easily.
No, you can't prove why exist at all, you just presuppose that your beginning point is some kind of universal indicator that anyone else cares about.

Also you are the one assuming beliefs I don't have, when my only point was that all at comprehensive explanations are fallacious at their core.

>>18541988
What belief? Agrippa's trilemma?
You can't bypass it any more than you can produce a magical unicorn, so you overcoming agrippa's trilemma seems exactly as likely as you producing a magical unicorn.

>>18541357
Earth if Christians are right: Empty because everyone is chilling with God in epic New Earth :O after Total Demon Death and holy Jesus second coming! :)

Earth if Christians are wrong: Global favela inescapable retard nigger hell due to insufficient will to create a better outcome

>>18541994
>you think the world started to exist
ok this shows you are too low iq

anyway, notice how you ran away again from even beginning to defend your god? yup.

>>18542004
Sorry I outed your questions and premises as being incredibly low IQ since you are clearly so low IQ you didn't consider all the wild assumptions necessary to support the mainstream historical narrative and you think I made any kind of proof of any god by saying that all proofs are fallacious at their core.

>>18541997
I meant your personal christcuck beliefs (presumably). What makes them more valid than magical unicornism?
We've successfully established the trilemma.

>>18542010
So because I know about agrippa's trilemma and have debunked the supreme truth of your beliefs, you have to assume I have the most retarded beliefs possible to izzat your way back to not feeling like a complete retard who was suckered into a stupid belief system of your own?

>>18542015
>supreme truth
I never argued for supreme truth, maybe you imagined some strawman. I am simply arguing than some beliefs make more sense faced with reality than others. This applies specifically to atheism vs Christianity, I argue that atheism makes more sense.
>assume I have the most retarded beliefs
What ARE your beliefs then? We are in a thread about Christianity vs atheism after all then.

>>18542020
>I never argued for supreme truth
Whoever started going on about starting points and having any basis for believing in some ultimate starting point certainly did.

>some beliefs make more sense faced with reality
Atheism isn't a belief, it is a lack of or rejection of a class of beliefs and yes the point of the trilemma is that beliefs can't actually be proven so there is no reason to have them at all. I prefer to employ descriptions not beliefs.

>I argue that atheism makes more sense.
That is about as unreasonable as arguing that 0 has more value to math than 1, atheism only makes sense in reference to theism, so why would it make more sense to frame your entire identity around something that doesn't make sense in the first place?

>>18541846
How many religions believe in an eternal hell?

>>18542037
a potentially infinite number of them

>>18542038
So your numbers are not based in reality, but in some infinite potential?

>>18542039
conceptually you can just make up a potentially infinite number of religions, because religion is a human construct.

>>18542037
>you should follow the religion that threats you the most

>>18542041
So you are just making things up to avoid discussing actual real things?

>>18542044
No, I'm saying that people can just make up a religion from a potentially infinite pool of ideas because religion is a human construct. A potentially infinite amount of religions = potentially infinite chance you'll violate the true one and go to hell anyways

>>18542045
>potentially
So not actual or real, just something you made up to circumvent actually talking about the real finite religions that actually exist?

>>18542046
New religions are being made every day my friend

>>18542047
What are some of the new religions that have been created today or in the last 24 hours, pal?

How does your theory account for people who create religions that are identical to each other?

>>18542025
>refuses to say what his belief is because he immediately will lose the argument
Lmao
>atheism isn't a belief
Fine, call it physicalism or materialism (which most atheists are) if that helps you

>>18542069
>I believe in stupid unprovable shit, so you have to as well.

>Fine, call it physicalism or materialism (which most atheists are)
But that isn't what atheism is, so why would I call it that just because you need to cope with carrying some other fallacious belief that you can not ever actually prove?

>>18542074
>keeps deflecting, refuses to answer a simple question, seethes and resorts to "reee its stupid"
I accept your concession, christcuck

>>18542052
You know, you could just duckduckgo or ask grok about NRMs and cults. Being ignorant and stupid is a choice in the information age.

>>18542076
I showed how it was stupid via agrippa's trilemma though, it wasn't a last resort at all, it was my opening gambit, and the stupidity has gone uncontested since then, you are just desperately fishing for a way to say no u and project your retarded conclusion that I am a christcuck (when i already said itw as the most retarded belief possible) instead of actually proving that your stated belief of atheistic starting points has any provable merit.

>>18542074
You, as a theist, are the one who believes in stupid unprovable shit though, aren't you? You believe all of humanity is cursed because a magical guy who lives in the sky created a man from clay and then a woman from his rib, then a talking snake told them to eat an apple and the magical guy who lives in the sky got assmad and damned humanity to suffer and die, but then he impregnated a woman with himself and then had himself killed in a human sacrifice so he would stop being mad and torturing people over shit he already knew was going to happen from the start. Right? This is what you believe. I simply believe none of that nonsense ever happened.

>>18542083
>I showed you Agrippa's dilemma
Which I then accepted and said we can still compare beliefs with each other.
You then claimed the dilemma goes beyond that, which prompted me to ask you whether you believe all beliefs are equally legitimate or illegitimate (which is the natural consequence of such a statement). You refused to answer that question and also the question what your beliefs ACTUALLY are.
Now you either answer these questions or it's pointless arguing with you because you're a retarded sophist.

>>18542078
So you have to move the goalpost from religion to cult and outsource your thinking to AI before you can have an actual point?

>>18542090
Every religion starts out as a little cult, or NRM, anon. How many followers did Jesus Christ have when he first started? If memory serves, he started out with two fishermen.

AI is a tool, in most ways it is superior to a search engine. Using AI to learn is not "outsourcing your thinking". So as I've said, if you're one of those luddite tards who gets irrationally assmad over AI, you can simply use a search engine. But I'm aware you won't be doing that since you don't like to learn and enjoy ignorance.

>>18542087
>You, as a theist, are the one who believes in stupid unprovable shit though, aren't you?
Citation? Where exactly does Agrippa's trilemma carve out exceptions for theism, why, when I have said several times that it has the most retarded beliefs, are you projecting that onto me?

(You), as an atheist take theism seriously enough to define your entire identity around it.

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>>18541357
Because a book saying something doesnt make it real

>>18542087
E-christian intellectual dishonesty is all about eliding their actual beliefs about the box dwelling, snake cursing, anti-census hardliner foreskin enthusiast to make arguments for an Aristotelian prime mover and irrationally hoping you will accept truth of the former if you acknowledge a logical argument for the latter.

>>18542097
If you find Christianity retarded, and atheism too apparently, what are your beliefs then and why do you refuse to answer that question?

>>18542089
>said we can still compare beliefs with each other.
Yes, you can compare which of the fallacies your belief falls under.

>You refused to answer that question
No, you just didn't like the answer I provided that I prefer to weigh descriptions, not that I have any particular hard coded beliefs.

>>18542096
Your memory does not serve you well since according to the story, Jesus was born into his religion and ascended to king of it by birthright.

>>18542100
>If you find Christianity retarded...
Anyone who isn't larping does

>>18542100
I have answered the question several times, you just won't accept detailed descriptions >>> beliefs because it doesn't fit your theism/atheism false dichotomy.

>>18542052
Left Hand Path religions pop every often moment

>>18542105
>that I have any particular hard coded beliefs
But you have some preferences then? Which beliefs do you prefer?

>>18542099
The dishonesty is you saying that agrippa is somehow pro-theism by debunking the validity of beliefs.

>>18542135
That's what every cult leader says.

>>18542140
Is that the reason you didn't answer the question about how to deal with identical "new" religions, because you count identical religions as different?

>>18542146
So you are saying every cult is canonically part of the same religion and you were lying about "new" religions popping up constantly?

>>18542143
I would prefer you stop acting like a complete retard, but that isn't happening any time soon, so preferences don't seem very useful either.

>>18542152
I'm not the other anon you were talking to, but no, no one said that, retard. You're making shit up again.

>>18542156
If every cult leader explicitly says they are just some extension of an old religion rather than a new one, how does that make them a new religion according to their dogma?

>>18542146
In this case, there is a whole book with an older testament testifying to it.

>>18542144
I don't give a fuck about Agrippa, you've assumed I'm someone else.

>>18542166
No, I did not assume, I noticed the only basis for labeling me an E-Christcuck theist is because I brought up Agrippa's Trilemma and showed that your beliefs are also fallacious.

>>18542159
So the branch davidians, people's temple, and heaven's gate are all just the same as mainstream christianity? Okay retard.

>>18542165
Same goes for David Koresh.

>>18542168
According to christ, all who believe are one in christ, so yes canonically.

>>18542147
I'm not your bf you were talking to, this is my only other post>>18542098
Btw, left hand path is a system, not a religion.

>>18542180
No, since the axiom is that there are infinite religions, your part time lover can call any system a religion.

>>18541357
It helps them to feel like a real woman

>>18542214
Jesus is the one who transitioned and said that there is no difference between male and female as long as they worship him since he came from a tranny religion that has a nonbinary gender spectrum which is why jews are the one constantly fighting courts for trans rights.

>heh Christianity is so dumb I'm totally not a christcuck
>atheism and physicalism is dumb too btw, refuted by Agrippa
>ok so what are your beliefs then?
>
The most pathetic kind of "debater"

>>18542217
Also he is the one who advocated cutting of your limbs to avoid hell and becoming a eunuch for the kingdom of god.

>>18542218
>NO, you have to have beliefs, you can't just collect and catalogue evidence, you have to draw a bunch of fallacious conclusions so you can tell retarded stories based on that evidence too.

>>18541383
>Christians if one of the other 1000 sects of Christianity are right:

>>18542221
Everyone has beliefs retard. Saying "you just collect evidence" means absolutely nothing. If it really is just about collecting evidence to you, your belief sounds pretty close to physicalism or some form of optimistic realism and we don't fundamentally disagree, but feel free to disagree.

>>18542231
>I believe you have beliefs and believe I can't be wrong, so you MUST believe what I say you do.
Why does everyone else need beliefs when you can clearly just do it for them?

>>18542221
So you're just a brainless data collection robot, is that it, anon? You hold no opinions or beliefs? Sounds like you're an NPC.

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>>18542191
Are you legitimately retarded?
Pic related is s magico-religious path (lhp) created by Temple of Ascending Flame.
It's lhp style, but it's based on Arahamic adverse tree of life (tree of death).
It's obv not the only one doing this, and not the sole approach to left Hand Path praxis (cont).

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>>18542261
Puc is same system of practice with same core objective, that is: left Hand Path, but it's made from vsmpiric mythology and is przcticed different with different ideas and beliefs.

>>18542260
You need a brain to collect and catalogue the information that serves as evidence, though, retard. Sounds like u mad.

>>18542275
That's literally what chatgpt does, kek. You're just a shittier version of a LLM.

>>18542217
Enjoy Hell

>>18542279
No, chatgpt shits out any belief you ask it about, then when you contradict it, it apologizes and congratulates you about your superior belief system.

>>18542282
Enjoy transitioning to a limbless eunuch for the glory of the kingdom of god.

>>18542291
Those flames just got hotter

>>18542260
i'm collecting the data of your mom's pussy with my cock

>>18542289
Oh, so you do have your own beliefs then, since you don't do that? But that's different than what you said before.

>>18542294
Based 13-year-old.

>>18542298
All atheists are 13 at least spiritually.

>>18542303
It's so obvious you have some religious beliefs but are too scared to mention them because it will immediately refute any of the pathetic arguments you tried to put forth kek

>>18542363
/his/ is more than 1 person little bro

>>18542367
So what are your beliefs then?

>>18542368
I believe I like getting my ass gaped and when I confess my priest says Jesus forgives me for it.

>>18542385
God hates the tongue that tells lies
>>18542368
I believe in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord;
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary;
suffered under Pontius Pilate;
was crucified, dead, and buried;
he descended into hell;1 the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from there he shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit;
the holy catholic2 church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting. Amen.

>>18542167
>your beliefs
Which have not been discussed in this thread at all, since that was my first post.
But since you're going to pretend otherwise, my beliefs are "I don't know if a god exists or not, but religion is definitely bullshit"

>>18542303
Thinking it's true that Jews can fly is part of being a grownup

>>18542416
I accept your clowncession.

>>18542423
Being grownup is when you think a man walked on water 2000 years ago.

>>18542403
>"I don't know if a god exists or not, but religion is definitely bullshit"
so you're an agnostic atheist. See wasn't so hard

>>18542433
Ah nvm I thought that retard finally said his beliefs. Ignore the post above >>18542403

>>18542423
>I believe that a magical man in the sky created a human out of clay and then made a woman from his rib and then a talking snake told them to eat an apple so the magical man chimped out and cursed all of humanity for all time
>but YOU are the clown!!

>>18542501
>>I believe [shallow caricature nobody believes]
>see now you feel SILLY, you should believe men can become women and monkeys turned into people now because you don’t want to feel SILLY do you???
>But I’M the clown??
Yeah that’s right, clown. Honk honk

>>18541357
pascal's wager will not get you into heaven
real belief isnt a choice
neither is real doubt

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>>18542507
You don't believe in the foundational creation story in the very beginning of the book you profess to believe in?

>>18541357
Because religious people (especially christians) are going to have their heads removed and locked in small computerized cages that keep their brains alive and stimulate the pain and fear centers in their brain. Atheists will not be placed in the automated torture chambers. Hell does not exist and thus it isn't something to care about, unlike artificially intelligent torture chambers.

>>18542530
>least psychotic atheist
I'm sorry your mommy made you stop playing mario and dress up for church, but it's really not my problem.

>>18542537
>y-you're psychotic and you had bad parents!
Nope. The machines are almost here. Your god isn't real and isn't going to save you.

>>18542539
If you dream up fantasy scenarios about torturing people you don't like, I'd say you are psychotic, yes.

>>18542540
>fantasy scenarios
Wrong. In fact, the fantasy scenario of Hell is the actual fantasy scenario (as heaven and hell don't exist), so you are projecting. Keeping a brain alive and torturing it is very much possible in principle.

>>18542507
>I believe [shallow caricature nobody believes]
It's not a shallow caricature, that is literally what christianity is
>monkeys turned into people now
Evolution is a directly observed and objectively proved fact of reality.

>>18541357
If we are going by Pascal Wager standards the most optimized religion to follow is Islam with an embrace of the eight-fold path.

>>18542980
That's because you cover 2/3 Abrahamic (Islam and Judaism unless you are ethnically Jewish, in which case all three are equal) religions + Dharmic Karma in one shot. Hence improving your chances above what just following one religion would do.

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>>18541376
>im a gay atheist who has never read the Bible
>feel free to debate the shit I just make up!

>>18542996
He literally said in parables retard
Do you think the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable?

>>18543000
What is the eternal torment of the rich man in a never ending flame represent, shitwit? Let me guess, a landfill outside of town?

>>18543002
>unironically not understanding the concept of parables
Do you also believe in mustard seeds growing into trees? The fact that your best reference to hell is a single fucking parable is already pretty telling

>>18543010
>it’s literally never described
>uh, oh actually there is a story in which Jesus literally describes the eternal torment of the damned
>guess I just made that up :)

>>18543012
The original anon said this:
>>18541376
>In the New Testament, literally the ONLY times anything like Hell is mentioned is in PARABLES by Jesus when he is referring to people or things being thrown into “the destroying fire” as in, a fiery pit outside a city to burn bodies or waste; a place of instant destruction
Disingenuous retard

>>18543023
> a place of instant destruction

Was the rich man instantly destroyed? Listen homo, I’m just asking you accurately represent what’s in the text.

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Because it's the truth?

>>18543048
What is “truth”? Is it made of matter or one of those made up fairy tales?

>>18543050
Word in English language

>>18543050
Retarded brown ESL.

>>18543066
That’s it, just a word? So truth doesn’t exist?

>>18543108
Not in the same way a cup does

>>18543108
NTA but we know what you're trying to do. Doesn't work because both the concept of "truth" and the concept of "God" exist as ideas in our minds. No one disputes that. No one disputes that the idea or concept of "God" exists. Even an atheist understands the idea of "God". Just like any other idea. Such as Mickey Mouse or Santa Claus. Those are all real concepts that everyone understands. The distinction being that they do not exist as a physical reality. Truth is not a real-world physical entity. Just like how God isn't. Just like how Santa Claus isn't - even though little kids do believe that Santa Claus is a physical entity that comes down the chimney and eats the cookies left out, he is in fact not a physical reality. He is a concept in their minds that lacks any real physical reality. Like God.

>>18543050
Truth is what we say something that sticks with time and is replicable and can't be yet debunked for all purposes.
Its a word that has been bastardized by platoniqts like many others, when originally, like any word, is just a metonymy to describe something that happened in history.
>Someone tells you he found a 3meter long fish yesterday
>You call him out as a liar
>He shows you the 3 meter fish
>The most likely explanation is that he actually caught it unless proven that he just found it dead or something
>Holy shit he told me the truth
This is one event where the word "truth" refers to something and is a useful tool for communication

There is absolutely no proof that there exist truth out there metaphysically, and if it did, how yould you even know since you can't physically have access to it.
Sounds like someone just garbled everything through a platonist trash word game