I just talked to s Catholic priest and consciously missing 1 call to mass is considered a mortal sin. Which means you go to hell for all eternity. This includes 99% of humanity. I told him this and he told me it's true and that he laments it, but it is the truth. Honestly this doesn't raise my morale at all and makes me believe in a cruel God more difficult.This is not a larp, I literally talked to q priest recently and he told me this. This is counting this mortal sin only, it you add the other mortal sins I don't know who gets saved at this fucking point.And by the way, hell is a place of torture, not annihilation, he also confirmed me this.
>Catholics if Catholics are right
>>18550236>Honestly this doesn't raise my morale at all and makes me believe in a cruel God more difficult.Even without this you would have to believe God creates most people for the sole purpose of torturing them for all eternity.
>>18550236kek, this is just flat out emotional manipulation.>worship my random bronze age desert deity and follow a million arbitrary rules or else he's gonna burn you for eternitylol, no thanksI would unironically imprison all catholic priests and use them as slave labor
It's actually every holy day of obligation, if you're confirmed.Miss one without a good reason, and you have to confess that.Should you make an act of perfect contrition, that is being truly remorseful and intending to go to confession for penance again soon as possible, you're fine.Like, that technically puts you in a state of grace. But it supposes you are consciously avoiding mortal sins within your natural power to perceive and really intending to make time for confession soon.Obligations to attend mass and penalties for lapse apply to Catholics, specifically.There are no canonical penalties for heathens.So failing to attend mass with no excuse due to circumstances is only a sin for committed Catholics. People outside the church aren't really sinning by not showing up.Literally different rules apply once you consciously submit.Anyways look up "general absolution".This is going to blow your mind.
>>18550236Hell awaits us all, because Heaven doesn't exist and non-existence is Heaven.
>>18550267>I would unironically imprison all catholic priests and use them as slave laborjej
>>18550236>he told me it's true and that he laments it, but it is the truthI'm not a Christian, but on what authority does he base this on?
>>18550236Hell is a place of torture because it is furthest from God and thus those that dwell in it will never be satisfied because only God can fully satisfy human beings. God respects people's choices and those that go to hell will prefer it over Heaven due to the way they've chosen to live, by placing other things other than God as their will's ultimate end. So being afraid of getting punished and sent to hell isn't the right way view it; if you want to truly be with God in Heaven then you will place him as your ultimate end and live a Christian life, going to confession when you fuck up and participating in the other sacraments. If you choose to live a non-Christian life then you wouldn't want to be with God in Heaven anyways, it would be painful and torturous for those souls and God won't force you to accept him if you don't want to."“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:13-14
>>18550616Ok buddy keep telling yourself that
>>18550236>Which means you go to hell for all eternityNot catholic doctrine btw
>>18550236Or just be Muslim and the Pope says you're good to go. Don't actually BE Muslim, I mean if you're thinking about becoming Catholic, just be Muslim instead and you're guaranteed salvation according to all recent "vicars of Christ."
>>18550618How do you understand it then? I'm open to being wrong, and if you can correct me I would appreciate it.
>>18550629hell is brown stone cave with flames, where a red guy with a pitchfork pokes people on the tuchus
>>18550622He literally told me this. Once you go to hell there is nothing I can do.I told him that if I go to hell in the future please remember me. And then he says to me that if I'm in hell there is nothing he can do. I shit you not.>>18550260This becomes truer the more I read the bible and talk to priests>>18550262No because we 100%choose on our own will and letting us to to hell id an act of love.>>18550591The bible and cathethism. He told me that Jesus teaches hell when talking about gehena, the fire outside for burning cadavers.
>>18550769>No because we 100%choose on our own willExcept God knows every choice you are going to make before you make it, before you are even born in fact. If you commit a mortal sin it is because God set you on a path to do so. God made most people in such a way they have no choice but to go straight to hell.>and letting us to to hell id an act of love.How is being tortured for all eternity an act of love? And if you think it is why do you care if you're going there? Maybe it's not so bad?
>>18550236Interesting.
>>18550769>letting us to to hell id an act of love.your IQ can't be above 85
>>18550789God is outside of time and this world inside of it, meaning change can occur and God knows of that change since outside of time is completion. God gives us the free will to choose to cooperate with Him and His Divine Providence or not while inside of time, our will isn't fully fixated. People can choose to place their passions as their ultimate end or not. Allowing people to go to hell is an act of love because even though those souls reject God, he still loves them and so continually grants them the gift of existence and allows them to be away from Him as much as possible since He is the act of existence itself. Since the will is fixed upon death, the final choice of embracing or rejecting God is everlasting and wherever a person ends up will be their preferred place to be; so I think being afraid doesn't really make sense. Here in time, humans are constantly wanting more and we are insatiable; only uniting with God are people satiated. So those in hell, though they have chosen it for whatever reason, won't ever have their passions or whatever ultimate end of their will satisfied, and are doomed to eternal suffering without the hope of growing in the virtues by suffering to eventually perfect ourselves that comes with being in time. I'm tired and am going to bed; Sorry if I didn't word this reply correctly or if it is confusing.
>>18550839>God is outside of time and this world inside of it, meaning change can occur and God knows of that change since outside of time is completion. God gives us the free will to choose to cooperate with Him and His Divine Providence or not while inside of time, our will isn't fully fixated. People can choose to place their passions as their ultimate end or not.Do you believe you are capable of making a choice that God did not know you would make?>Allowing people to go to hell is an act of love because even though those souls reject God, he still loves them and so continually grants them the gift of existence and allows them to be away from Him as much as possible since He is the act of existence itself.He's not "allowing" them to go there, he's sending them there, and they have no option to leave. And if he just wants to allow you to keep existing, why the eternal torture? Why wouldn't he just send you to a place that isn't with him, but where you aren't being tortured forever? I feel like you're skipping over the torture bit when you talk about "love", even though you have acknowledged that is in fact what is happening.>Since the will is fixed upon death, the final choice of embracing or rejecting God is everlasting and wherever a person ends up will be their preferred place to be>So those in hell, though they have chosen it for whatever reason, won't ever have their passions or whatever ultimate end of their will satisfied, and are doomed to eternal suffering without the hope of growing in the virtues by suffering to eventually perfect ourselves that comes with being in time.Why would anyone's preferred choice be "eternal suffering"?
Does the bible say that? If not then tell that papist prick to fuck off
>>18550236>2026>still taking kike derivated nonsense seriously>believing in it, evengrim
>>18550236you might be misunderstanding what mortal sin actually meansyou can still repent, it's only a problem if you die while in mortal sin
>>18551171>get sick>bedridden>miss mass>die>hellWow great divine justice!
>>18551249That's what Last Rites are for
>>18551249In judgement day who will be able to testify about your goodness and generosity with them? Who will testify before God about how much you helped them or how you extended mercy to them?
>>18550789Anon, I'm not agreeing with the priest, I'm just a bit broken because when si talk with priests they tell me this.He told me predestination doesn't exist and that we have free will, and that God is outside time and lives in a perpetual present.>How is being tortured for all eternity an act of love? And if you think it is why do you care if you're going there? Maybe it's not so bad?That's what I told him and he told me it is because of free will and that is more loving for God to let free will be and let people choose hell (except I don't want to go to hell but it seems you choose hell with your actions, and 99% of actions lead you to hell).He also told me that hell is better than nonexistence, and I don't agree. I think having no thought at all is better than experience the worst torture for ever, but yeah...>>18550815I'm repeating what he told me, I'm not agreeing with it.>>18551171Mortal sin means that if you die without confessing to a priest, you go to hell. Life is a game of chicken where you have to be in the correct slot when the clock ticks or you are fucked
>>18550236id agree if they still understood what mass is supposed to be, spoiler: it isn't supposed to be a group meet up to agree a cracker is the flesh of jesus
>>18551249It's so hilarious how dunning krueger midwits just spout off about things you do not understand, and do not care about understanding.Being sick actually is one of the acceptable excuses for missing mass.Deacons are supposed to bring the Eucharist to the sick and elderly, and have had this job since the early days of the church.Another one, traditionally, is being a shepherd. Since they had to keep watch over the flock every day.
>>18550866based
If you don't go to mass because you just don't want to that day, or want to sleep in, or don't like some of the people there, that's a sin if you're a Catholic.But if you're physically prevented, or have some overridingly important concern which demands your presence, etc, that's not a sin.Being a committed Catholic has certain duties and responsibilities that go along with it, which non-Catholics aren't expected to do.If you joined the army, but didn't report for duty or stand at roll call, you would be penalized. Civilians don't have to stand in line and present or account for like active service members do.Same deal.They call it the church *militant* for a reason.
>>18551263Confession of desire is a thing. If you die in a state of mortal sin but were going to confess you're good. Spirit of the law above the letter.
>>18550236Ask him to point out where it says in the Bible that missing good goy hour one time makes you hellbound.
>>18550865No, due to God being outside of time and in the completed state whereas those inside of time are journeying toward completion still. The whole point of time is to allow for choice and the perfection of ourselves. Past present and future is already completed outside of time so God knows about it all.God does allow them to go there because hell is the state of rejecting God. He does not force anyone to unite with Him in Heaven if they prefer to put other things above Him. The people that choose to reject God and die in that state have their will fixed in that state because they are no longer inside of time and cannot change. They wouldn't want the option then to leave or alter that state of being because their will is absolutely fixed. The everlasting torture comes from the fact the only God can fully satisfy, the people that choose to put other things above the only thing that can truly satisfy them suffer by their own choice. They were invited to unite with God and for whatever reason rejected Him even until their last breath and so suffer the consequences of never being satiated, whether that be their passions or spiritual longings or both. He loves those that reject Him so much that He allows them to be as they want to be. Since God is the act of existence itself, it is impossible to completely place a person somewhere entirely away from Him, which could also be considered part of the torture for these souls. People choose to do things that will cause them suffering all the time for what they perceive as a short term good. Giving into passions, ignoring the building of the virtues, and being prideful are things that people do all the time because they feel good short term / the duration of their earthly life. If one chooses to use their time only for their own pleasure and disregard virtues, while having the knowledge of Christ and His message, then they've shown they have no interest in being with God by acting contrary to what He wants of them.
>>18551863Again, can you make a choice that God did not know you were going to make? If the answer is "no", then you do not have a choice on whether you go to hell or not, that choice was made for you when God created you.>He does not force anyone to unite with Him in Heaven if they prefer to put other things above Him.But he does force them to go to hell where he tortures them for forever.>They were invited to unite with God and for whatever reason rejected Him even until their last breath and so suffer the consequences of never being satiated, whether that be their passions or spiritual longings or both.I think you know this isn't true, because you started this thread after learning that missing just one call to mass is a mortal sin. You didn't know that until a few days ago. Someone, like you, could skip mass one day, thinking God would forgive them without knowing that he wouldn't, and be damned for eternity for a mistake.>He loves those that reject Him so much that He allows them to be as they want to be.Do you believe they want to be tortured forever? Again you have acknowledged that it's torture but keep acting like it's not that bad and they might actually prefer it. And again, he does now "allow" them to do anything, he throws them into a lake of fire.>Since God is the act of existence itself, it is impossible to completely place a person somewhere entirely away from Him, which could also be considered part of the torture for these souls.No, the torture is the constant burning, as described repeatedly in the Bible. "It's torture to be away from God" is a post-Biblical justification. The Bible describes it as being tormented with fire and brimstone.
>>18551929God knows because He is in the completed state, in time is still not complete and choices can be made within it that are not predetermined by God. If that wasn't the case then every action would be sanctioned by God but it isn't the case as sin, which are absences occur, and would be a contradiction to what God is since He lacks nothing, has no absences, and is perfection.The people are given the choice in time to decide if they want to be with God or not, so they choose, and then at their death God respects their choice and allows them to go where they want and be how they want to be.I did not start this thread. Missing a Mass on sunday without good reason or dispensation is a mortal sin and can be forgiven if a person wants to be forgiven. God will forgive all who want it.I believe that people value the immediate perceived good and choose it over the long term good even with knowledge of the ultimate good since it is partially present compared to what is tempting them, but they still know right from wrong. I don't think they see it as torture since they aren't interested in God and just want to indulge in passions and spiritual pleasures. Their perception isn't focused on long term, the everlasting, and end up suffering in hell due to never being able to quench their desires. They don't share the same perspective as a Christian is what I'm getting at and will view hell and the way in which a Christian views it differently.I don't think hell is literal burning fire, but a state of being without God and his graces and all that entails.
>>18551929>>18552019I'm trying not to be confusing; can you explain how you view it all so I can see where we differ and try to bridge it? If you think that people are predetermined to go to to Heaven or hell then are you a Calvinist? I am Catholic and come from the point of view that God gives us free will, has an overall plan that will occur no matter what, but humans are able to choose to participate in His plan by cooperating or not in various ways.
>>18550629Very well. Religions are secular, bloated death cults that use the fear of the afterlife to coerce people into doing things for few powerful demagogues. Religions are consistently inconsistent, they're warped and bent to appease the current sociopolitical stage or to justify heinous acts. Religions are the bane of humanity. And there's no hell, no heaven, only the void after you die.
>>18552027I was an atheist for most of my life and studying philosophy changed my mind about the existence of a God and what God actually is so I think I can understand where you're coming from a bit. By the void, do you mean that we cease to exist entirely or it's a place or state of being after death that we all go to? I see no reason to fear the afterlife but I've definitely talked to religious people that do and can understand that sentiment. It must be very anxiety inducing to live like that. I doubt we're going to agree on the afterlife but I appreciate you engaging honestly with me.
>>18552019>>18552022The disconnect is in how we understand God's knowledge of your choices. I'm not even saying you don't have free will, just that God knows what you will do with that free will before you do anything. It's sort of like if I told you to meet me at a location 20 miles from your house, and you do not have a car or a license, I know that you aren't driving there. Though even this isn't a great analogy since I had nothing to do with your ability to drive or lack of a car. From God's perspective it is more like cause and effect, you know if you drop something it is going to fall. When he creates you he knows what sins you are going to commit and if you are going to seek forgiveness for them or not.>The people are given the choice in time to decide if they want to be with God or not, so they choose, and then at their death God respects their choice and allows them to go where they wantIf you are allowed to go where you want to go, can I go to a realm where beautiful women give me oral for all eternity instead of the torture realm? Like if he's taking requests I would prefer that one.>I did not start this thread.My mistake, got you confused with >>18551263>I don't think hell is literal burning fire, but a state of being without God and his graces and all that entails.You can think that but it's not what the Bible says.>If you think that people are predetermined to go to to Heaven or hell then are you a Calvinist? I am Catholic and come from the point of view that God gives us free will, has an overall plan that will occur no matter what, but humans are able to choose to participate in His plan by cooperating or not in various ways.I am not a Calvinist but I think Calvinism has the most coherent understanding of God based on how he is typically described. If most people are ending up in hell, God either wants that or he doesn't. If he doesn't he's really bad at making plans, and I think most Christians would reject that premise.
>>18552076I do think that God knows what a person will do but just because he knows in the instant that a person is created doesn't mean that the choices weren't freely made or that he doesn't allow them if that's what your trying to get at from how I view it.Hell is likened to multiple things other than fire, of which is "outer darkness" which seems to be contradictory to literal fire. Weeping and gnashing of teeth another that is different from literal fire. So I think these examples are meant to point to spiritual realities of what hell is like rather than the literal material reality. If those material aspects are present, I still believe the core of what makes hell hell is the absence of communion with God since you can have those material aspects on earth afflict a person but that doesn't mean earth is hell.If God wanted most people to end up in hell then I don't think He would have sent His Son to suffer and die for our sins to give people the opportunity to unite with Him in the beatific vision, or revealed Himself at all to us. Love has to be freely given and received and unfortunately a lot of people choose to reject God's love. I don't think God wants people to choose to reject Him but allows them to because it is necessary for a loving relationship to be voluntary. I'm not sure if it is most people or not, from the Bible passage I quoted earlier it seems to reflect that but I'm unsure. I don't have all the answers on this; I'm still learning and need to study and think more about this. Since God is good and perfection itself, I trust that He has it all figured out even if I may not be able to understand His Divine Providence and the mechanisms by which it's achieved.
>>18550236The priest gave you the strict formulation without the context that makes it intelligible. Missing Mass is grave matter, yes. But mortal sin requires three conditions: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. Remove any one and it is not mortal. Someone who misses Mass out of sickness, necessity, or genuine ignorance does not commit mortal sin. The Catechism is explicit on this (CCC 1857-1859).The "99% of humanity" claim is not Catholic teaching. The Church explicitly teaches (CCC 846-848, Lumen Gentium 16) that those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ but sincerely seek truth and follow their conscience can be saved. God judges hearts, not attendance records.On hell: the priest was right that hell is real and that mortal sin can lead there. But he was wrong to leave it at that without explaining what hell actually is. Hell is not God torturing people who broke a rule. It is the freely chosen state of a soul that has definitively rejected God. As Lewis put it, the doors of hell are locked from the inside. God does not send people to hell. People walk there, and He pleads with them not to.The Mass obligation is not arbitrary. It is the minimum of what is owed to the source of your existence. If God created you, redeemed you, and sustains you in being at every moment, then one hour a week is not cruelty. It is the floor, not the ceiling.What the priest failed to tell you is that confession exists. The entire point of the sacramental system is that failure is not final. You fall, you repent, you confess, you get back up. The Christian life is not perfection achieved. It is perfection pursued through grace. The only unforgivable sin is the one you refuse to repent of, because you have refused the only mechanism that could heal it.The God who made you does not want to damn you. He became man, suffered, and died so that you would not be. That is not cruelty. It is a Father who entered the fire to pull you out.
>>18550236> I don't know who gets saved at this fucking pointApparently me. It's very easy to just not commit mortal sins.I also haven't missed a mass in years and that includes holidays like today. Best part is travelling, you get to meet a new community. Was in Athens a month ago, drank with Jesuit priest there after mass, talked about stuff.>>18552076Catholicism does not definitively state that even a single person is in hell. So it is possible there are 0 people there, or that only the people who were fully aware of God's grace and consciously rejected it - "yeah no thanks God I'd rather be in hell than with You" - are there.
Nobody gives a fuck. Only the truly stupid people believe in God of Israel at this point, with all the knowledge available. Being religious these days is like being a flat earther. Peak stupidity and ignorance.
>>18552424What knowledge? You're like Galen's contemporary, "oh yeah we know how human body functions, there's animal spirit in the brain, vital spirit in the heart, and natural spirit in the liver, and it all runs on 4 humors, case solved"We can't even define what consciousness is, let alone free will, and you retards go "uh yeah its all chemicals bro, we're just deterministic machines, nfts oh i mean ais are the future, there's no God btw (as if it follows from anything we know)"
>>18552425>>18552424This, it takes way more faith to be an atheist. How do you know your dumbass brain shaped by evolutionary forces could ever even lead you to truth?
>>18550236>This is not a larp
>>18552473I don't want to dox myself, but I was at a wedding recently and I talked to some priests. I've always moved around catholic circles and have religious catholic family members (and I'm talking about very very catholic members) and the fruits of these resulted in very broken families where the children resented their parents, broken brothers and sisters too. I talked to a priest and after asking and arguing>Hell is real>Hell is not oblivion but a place of torture.>You choose hell.>Not going to one call of mass without excuse is a mortal sin>99.99% of people will go to hell>Non existence is worse than eternal torture>One of them was smoking and drinking at the party (it seems drinking and smoking in moderation isn't mortal sin, despite myself never smoking a single ciggy in my entire life, so I don't know what excuse does the priest have).I asked about more topics but he seemed more interested in preaching rather than answering my questions (the typical thing Charlie Kirk did or other people do where they try to steer the conversation into the same blueprints they always do, instead of trying to understand me).Anyways I simply can't love an unloving/useless God that sends 99.9) of his creation to torture, this is sadism. I don't believe God is this cruel, they must be wrong.
>>18550236>I don't know who gets saved at this fucking point.It sounds like I'm joking, but put your faith in Jesus Christ. Catholic approach to sin is famously accountant-like, much more so today than historically. I wouldn't frame it as an an if-then mechanism, the Bible points out sin and mercy don't necessarily work this way. Less legalism, more faith.
>>18552529You had way more real answers than your retarded thread deserves. Btw real statistics show active churchgoers have more stable families than non-believers. Keep seething.
>>18552122>I do think that God knows what a person will do but just because he knows in the instant that a person is created doesn't mean that the choices weren't freely made or that he doesn't allow them if that's what your trying to get at from how I view it.It's not, like I said, I can accept that free will is a thing, it just doesn't matter. If God knows when he creates you that you are going to hell you cannot make choices that are going to change that.>Weeping and gnashing of teeth another that is different from literal fire"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" twice follows the person in question being thrown into a furnace of fire.>If God wanted most people to end up in hell then I don't think He would have sent His Son to suffer and die for our sins to give people the opportunity to unite with Him in the beatific vision, or revealed Himself at all to us.> I trust that He has it all figured out even if I may not be able to understand His Divine Providence and the mechanisms by which it's achieved.If you don't know or understand what he's doing, is it not possible he does in fact want most people in hell for reasons you cannot understand?
>>18552651Do you think it is fair to send souls to hell by failing to go to church once?
>>18552529>it seems drinking and smoking in moderation isn't mortal sinIt's not. Why would it be?
>>18552828Then why the fuck was one of the priests smoking?
>>18552827They send themselves there by depriving themselves of the sacraments which enable the rise of fallen man to Christ JesusAs said in this thread countless times, committing a sin doesn't immediately cause that person to be flung into hell rather it is staying in error which divorces one from God. Repenting is a crucial aspect of the Church and it is this along with a constant participation in the body of the Church which enables salvation.It isn't relevant to this thread, but the secular façade is especially terrible in this regard as it causes people to fall away from the Church. In times prior it was difficult to not go to mass, but now it is extremely easy.
>eternal punishment for finite crime>Disbelief is the biggest crimeSounds stupid
>>18553075You didn't really answer the question of the matter of fairness. Allow me a thought experiment: if the true god is not the one you worship, and it damns you to eternal doom for misplacing your faith, would you personally think that's fair?
>>18552857Because it is NOT a mortal sin, schizo.
>>185530951) Is it fair that someone chooses to jump into a lake and drown? It is a terrible thing, however it is due to their ignorance. It is thus the job of the Church to enlighten mankind and dispel the ignorance which we are born in.2) The question was regarding Catholics and their obligation to actively participate in mass to receive the fruits thereof. It is in this context damnation is to be understood since they are actively depriving themselves of the divine presence, which is hell.3) There can only be one God. Even if we talk about «other faiths», we have to ask where these all derive from. Humanity comes from one, as all derives from one. All humanity ultimately derives from the first man ADAM. Νοw those who are of «other faiths» and do good deeds are not damned, rather in purgatory, which can be seen as a continuation of this earth. However it is only the one Church of Christ which can enable man to go beyond this state and reach liberation which is the ultimate goal of mankind.
>>18552827Yes. It's a basic thing that requires less effort than going to a grocery store. If attending is actually difficult, it's not considered a mortal sin. Keep seething in your larp thread.
