It may have been an ugly and unenviable task, but the execution of the Romanov's was completely justified. Killing them all was the only way to ensure there would not be a monarchist figurehead to rally around.
Is this even a debate? I feel like the only people who would disagree are disney morality millenials who view history through a lens of moral vs immoral.
>>18550387>I feel like the only people who would disagree are disney morality millenials who view history through a lens of moral vs immoral.That's like 90% of 4chan users
>>18550370I feel like most people don't differentiate between raison d'etat and personal morality. as a person I find it very abhorrent. but as a state action, which is by definiton beyond good and evil, it was the only logical move. I just wish that, as a person, the osmanoğlus suffered a similar fate. at least those who were responsible for the hardships endured
>>18550387The Law says thou shalt not kill. You deride The Law? Fool.
>>18550370Except there were surviving branches of the Romanovs and they never retook power. Besides, the whites fought for the Russian republic, do you really think the people who actually overthrew the Tsar (not the Bolsheviks) would fight to restore them?
>kill the foreign born wife with zero claim to the throne>kill the daughters in a land with agnatic primogeniture>kill the hapless servants that just made the mistake of accompanying the royal family>"It was them or us, comrade"
>>18550370Puyi.
They also just hated the Romanovs. And rightfully so.
>>18550396>a state action, which is by definition beyond good and evilWhat? We talk about states being good and evil all the time. Whatever definition of the state you're using is far from obvious, making this post incredibly bizarre.
>>18550513>We talk about states being good and evil all the time.Yes, and it's retarded.
>>18550370Bolsheviks liberated Slavic Russian from germutt Holstein Gottorp oppressors
>>18550513what you are making is a normative claim which can't be applied to states. the state is only concerned with self help, power accumulation and the security of its nationals which is the basis of the social contract. so, even a genocidal state like nazi germany can't be deemed ''evil'' the way a serial rapist is, at most you can call it a tyrannical regime or a leviathan that lost its track but evil? no. state actions can not be defined as evil since the only morality states can adhere to is the morality of success>We talk about states being good and evil all the time.most talk about men cutting their dicks off and becoming women, that doesn't mean that its true
>>18550705>state actions can not be defined as evil since the only morality states can adhere to is the morality of successWhy is that the ONLY morality they can adhere to? Why can't a state choose to adhere to some other morality? Say a theocracy subscribing to the moral dictates of its own religion. Also the people who comprise a state can clearly do evil so this is just a tiny difference in language from:"The state was evil" to "the people who comprised the state were evil".
>>18550724>Why is that the ONLY morality they can adhere to? Why can't a state choose to adhere to some other morality? Say a theocracy subscribing to the moral dictates of its own religion.they get eliminated from the international system, easy as. look around you and you wont see a single state doing humanitarian work for the sake of humanity its always a rational calculus about cost/benefit. why do you think rwanda happened? or why did states allow ISIL to exist until it was inconvenient for them?>Also the people who comprise a state can clearly do evildisagreed, if it serves the state's interests nothing the statesman can do no evil. as a person once you get a high ranking position in state bureaucracy you must let go of notions of personal morality etc when you are ''at work''. you do not have the luxury of that due to your position. you become a cell in the leviathan and you must act like it
>>18550436>agnatic primogenitureIt's absurd to think monarchists would give a single shit about this, any monarch is better than none even if it doesn't technically follow the ultratrad rules
>>18550672And then killed a million more, because they were too White and Slavic peasants need to be replaced with shitskins, niggers and asians instead, because they can get too racist and rebellious.
>>18550370Couldn't they have tried Nicky like France and England did for their monarchs?
Multiple layers to it. On political, strategic level, killing Romanovs was an obvious thing to do, and considering the amount of blood spilled in the events leading up to that, it would feel ridiculous to moralfag about the royal family itself.But on more personal moral level>the way how the executions were carried out was distasteful as hell>even if Nicky 100% deserved to die and there were valid strategic reasons to kill rest of the family, the kids were still innocent, so even it we view the killing as necessary evil, it still was evil
>>18550370>>18550387Who would ralley around him? 90% of the whites supported the Duma who were justly putting down the reds rebellion who only rose up because they lost all of their elections.
>>18550864agreed, it was necessary but the manner in which the execution was carried out was really distasteful.
>>18550370Yeah, murdering innocent children in a basement is justified.
>monarchist figureheadThe provisional government already overthrew the monarchy and voted for "socialist revolutionaries" and it was their remnants that the Bolsheviks were fighting with only a few meme LARP monarchists among them. As hostages they may have been used to dissuade monarchists from fighting.Many atrocities were committed by both sides, but for the most part public perception was that the Bolsheviks really were workers and peasants rebelling against their terrible conditions. As Stalin said "one death a tragedy, a million a statistic". It wasn't until they killed not only the Tsar but his children that they soiled their reputation forever, foreign support for the whites shot up thereafter and prolonged the war. It was autistic faceblindness on their part.
>>18550430>The Law says thou shalt not kill.Yet murder has always existed
>>18550436>agnatic primogenitureThis isn't Crusader Kings, anon.
>>18550929>It was autistic faceblindness on their part.I think it proven that Lenin didn't order the killing, the local authority acted on their own.
>>18550952Still irrelevant on an international scale. Foreigners don't know the complex relationships and factionalism that was going on. The fact of the matter is the international community saw the Red side unjustly murder an innocent family that by all means had 0 power and it disgusted them.
>I had to murder a bunch of unarmed crying children because...they were a threat to my power!Oh, I see, THAT justifies it!
>>18550436Also killed a relative of the Romanovs who was both elderly and a nun, by tossing her down a well and chucking grenades down.
>>18550952I read that too, but it is debatable, and Lenin and Trotsky fostered a culture of mass killings with the Cheka even killing scores of workers and peasants striking and resisting the grain requisitions far behind the front lines. It is no wonder then that some rogue officer would snuff out human life like it's nothing expecting praise for this zeal.
>>18550370>>18550387>>18550390>anything is permissible in the name of world revolutionYou guys are subhuman and I am glad Russians and Israelis are being droned.
>>18550370I understand killing the Tsar and and his male relatives. But why did the commies kill his daughters, too, instead of raping and enslaving them? By the looks of it, they were all pretty cute and the new Tsar Lenin could've kept them as concubines as has been the Conquerer's right since times immemorial. Killing them seems shockingly wasteful.
>>18550370Has Russia really gotten better since then though?
>>18551147>we are doing away with Imperialists...but let me do something all imperialists have done and crown myself as the new tsarRetard.
>>18551165Lenin and all his successors were just tsars by another name, don't kid yourself.
>>18551147>I understand killing the Tsar and and his male relatives. But why did the commies kill his daughtersI told you why in the OP
>>18551176>all leaders are basically kings since they lead the countryRetard.
>>18550370>>18550387wrong, china proved with the handling of the emperor that the murder of the monarch and killing of children was gruesome, barbaric and unnecessary
>>18550370>mass murdering children instead of deporting them was actually based and heckin valid All the men involved were eventually arrested or executed from purges as well. Evil always eats itself
>>18550370>some Slavic apes had their regularly scheduled chimpout and killed their royal family 100+ years ago>therefore, trillionaires deserve to own the oxygen we breathe????
>>18550370Bolsheviks were too kind, they should been tortured for their crimes against humanity
>>18551197Lenin was a dictator, the Tsar was a dictator, they were both at the top of a hierarchy that exploited people, I don't mean bourgeois paying proletariat the market rate, I mean the state using its power over life and death to extort the population without any form of representative government, something that Karl Marx glossed over.Communism is supposed to be a "stateless" society, but apparently Marx didn't stress that enough since all his followers try to set themselves up as dictator without any resistance from their followers or the general population indoctrinated into his ideology.
There were some documents referring to the idea of prosecuting Nicky with Trotsky as the chief prosecutor and sparing the family, but that got derailed by the panic and haste of the civil war. Imagine how kino the trial could have been, with Trotsky using his wit and truth to tear down the royalist lies and decadence!
>>18551507Communists genuinely deserve the worst
>>18550728>>18550948It was how inheritance to the throne was determined, with women only capable of inheriting if the entire male line went extinct. Nicholas II's male cousin claimed the throne in exile and its clear to see how little that did to change the course of the Soviet Union
>>18551273You got a bot set up to make that non-sequitur comment in every thread about the execution of the Romanovs now?
>>18551561Nobody gives a shit, the monarch would be installed by monarchists seizing the government and they can decide whatever they want, like Franco
>>18551570'The monarchists' weren't even in control of the Provisional Government let alone the wider White movement.
>>18551573And at what point does "agnatic primogeniture" become relevant to anybody?
Nobody, not even most of the whites wanted him. By February 1917 EVERYONE thought Nicky was a retard. The whites were mostly fighting for the constituent assembly that the Bolsheviks illegally shut down rather than the Tsar.>But they had to! They would have been a rallying point for resistance!From who? The peasants were almost all SR's. Even the most conservative white-army generals just wanted to rule in their own right as military dictators or restore the constituent assembly but use it as a vehicle for power. His son was a hemophiliac semi-cripple and he had been out of power for a year at that point. The Bolsheviks were even debating putting him on trial but sparing the family, but the Ural Bolsheviks panicked and killed the family because they thought putting them on a train would be too risky.>Well it was still justified because you HAVE to kill the royal family, even the children!China didn't with Pu-Yi, even though he was a collaborator with a foreign government invading China and massacred his own people. The Bolsheviks come off like they're ashamed of what they did, for a while they denied it and said the Tsar's family was still safe even though everyone knew it was BS. It wasn't until way, way later that retarded western socialists who were born 50+ years after the fact started portraying it as a deliberate act of anti-royalist justice instead of a couple of drunk, incompetent officers shitting the bed necessitating a coverup.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puyi>Puyi came to Beijing on 9 December 1959 with special permission from Mao and lived for the next six months in an ordinary Beijing residence with his sister before being transferred to a government-sponsored hotel. He had the job of sweeping the streets, and got lost on his first day of work, which led him to tell astonished passers-by: "I'm Puyi, the last Emperor of the Qing dynasty. I'm staying with relatives and can't find my way home".[211] One of Puyi's first acts upon returning to Beijing was to visit the Forbidden City as a tourist; he pointed out to other tourists that many of the exhibits were the things he had used in his youth. He voiced his support for the communists and worked as a gardener at the Beijing Botanical Gardens. The role brought Puyi a degree of happiness he had never known as an emperor, though he was notably clumsy.[212]
>>18550370>Killing them all was the only way to ensure there would not be a monarchist figurehead to rally around.But that doesn't justify murder. Therefore the execution itself was unjustified.
>>18551581The cover-up (and the execution of the servants / doctor etc.) are the things that really rub me the wrong way about the execution, alongside with the way how the process was done in drunken chaos. If they just executed the Romanovs and said that it was justice for their crimes against the Russian people, OK, fair enough, civil wars are messy and they had a valid reason to hate the Romanovs.But killing them in a blast of vodka-induced violence, killing servants who were genuinely 100% innocent and had zero valid strategic reason to die (well, beyond the cover-up) and then covering it all up and lying about it for years just makes Bolsheviks look like bandits. Someone might say that it doesn’t matter, because killing is killing, but I’d say that it actually has massive symbolic meaning.
Alexander Beloborodov>A fellow prisoner reported hearing him being dragged along a prison corridor shouting, "I am Beloborodov! Pass the word on to the Central Committee that I am being tortured!". He was shot on 10 February 1938 at Kommunarka firing range after being sentenced the same day. Georgy Safarov>While still serving his sentence in the Gulag, Safarov was sentenced to death by a decree of a Special Collegium of the NKVD on 16 July 1942 following the German Invasion of the Soviet Union, ironically on the same day Safarov had signed the death warrant for the Romanovs 24 years priorFilipp Goloshchyokin>He was under heavy interrogation in the Lubyanka in Moscow at the time of the Axis invasion of the Soviet Union during World War II in June 1941, and was transferred to Kuybyshev by 17 October when the headquarters of the NKVD were evacuated there. He was one of 20 'especially dangerous' prisoners, who included 14 high-ranking military officers, who were executed by firing squad on 28 October 1941 on the direct orders of Lavrentiy Beria, and consigned to an unmarked grave.Nikolay Tolmachyov>In battle near Preobrazhenskaya station near the village of Krasnye Gory, he was seriously wounded, surrounded by the White Guards, and shot himself in order to not be captured and taken prisonerBoris Didkovsky>On January 30, 1937, he was arrested, on August 10, 1937, he was sentenced, and on August 13, 1937, he was shot in Sverdlovsk as "an active member of the anti-Soviet terrorist organization of the right in the Urals."
Pyotr Voykov>At the moment when Voykov and Rosengolts passed the sleeper of the train, a man fired a pistol shot at Voykov, who jumped aside and started to run. The assailant, who cried out, "Die for Russia!", pursued him with further shots, to which Voykov pulled a pistol out of his pocket and returned fire at his assailant, only to falter and collapse into the arms of a Polish policeman who had arrived on scene. The shooter identified himself as Boris Kowerda, and stated that he planned to kill Voykov in order to "Avenge Russia, to avenge millions of people".Gavril Myasnikov>In November 1944, he was invited by the Soviet embassy in France to return to the USSR. He accepted the invitation, received a visa and was sent to the USSR via the embassy on 18 December 1944. After returning to the USSR, he was arrested by the Soviet secret police on 17 January 1945. He was executed on 16 November 1945.
>>18551590>>18551591Shame to see so many of formerly honorable Bolsheviks joining Trotskyist-counterrevolutionary terrorist organizations…
>>18551600I know. All of these supposed loyal revolutionaries ended up being trotskyist/left opposition/right opposition members the entire time. I'm glad Stalin and Beria took care of them though, Patriots in control!!
>>18550952yeah, like the locals would have dared act on their own.
>>18551386>the general population indoctrinated into his ideologythis canard needs to die. no population ever was indoctrinated into communism. commies always hold power by violence, against the popular will, simple as.
>>18551580Probably the point where an argument is justifying the murder of teenaged girls with the claim their mere existence is a significant threat to the regime
>>18550430Indeed. So what should be done to people order peaceful protesters to be gunned down and hacked to death with sabres in the street?
>>18551914Try and execute the guy who did it instead of killing him, his wife, children, and random servants in a disorganized drunken massacre in a basement.
>>18551029lmao
>>18550513when we're talking about modern history of Russia especially through late-tsarism/lenin/Stalin the state is just a genocidal machine with no feelings and you can attribute whatever morality/ethos you want to the individuals involved but at the systemic level it's just inhuman bureaucracy. I understand that is not satisfying in the least.
If Beria was there he would have cummed inside the girls.
>>18550370>It was for the greater good!The greater good in question being starvation, purges, labour camps and espionage.
