What the fuck was the point of fighting to try and "liberate" this shithole when the population hates the rest of the island and would rather be part of the UK?
>>18551825just looking at the names on the map gives me epiglottitis
Fucking sucks that the only effort poster on all of /his/ is irefag, so we can only have good threads about this one specific topic.Downloaded and am reading the book he recommended, the making of modern Ireland by J.C. Beckett. I feel like a fucking fool for not realizing the principle antagonist to the British attempts to subjugate Ireland were not the Irish themselves but in fact the "Old English" (Normans who settled there immediately after the Norman conquest).
Northern Ireland = basedIreland = cringe simple ashttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5OhCp44XZVohttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jgmnVGm2DFk
What the fuck was the point of trying to ‘unite’ this shithole? Ireland was never a single independent, united polity under Irish rule. It only became one administrative unit when the British imposed it, so why pretend there’s some ancient natural state that has to be restored?
>>18551825There's a sizable Catholic minority being oppressed by the Protestant minority there.
>>18551837The same reason why nationalism sprouted elsewhere: to more effectively fight back against imperialism/colonialism.A bunch of divided petty kingdoms will be ineffectual against a foreign aggressor compared to a single united state.
>>18551838*majority*
>>18551825UK flooded the island with settlers and landowners, many of whom are extremely crazed about their place in the kingdom (and previously empire) over the years. It's not that unusual in the scope of colonialism.
>>18551825That wasn't why The Troubles was fought.The Troubles was fought because Ulster Catholics protested for greater rights within Northern Ireland (a Catholic vote was worth less than a Protestant vote), which caused the Protestants to chimp out and start massacring them.The 'RA got involved to 'protect' Catholics from marauding Protestants as a sort of PR move. Then the Brits invaded, and while initially welcomed, ended up backing the Protestant lunatics, so the 'RA stayed embroiled for further PR because the Catholics hated the corrupt oppressive Brits, and because they'd look soft if they pulled out when the Brits were still occupying Irish soil. The Brits meanwhile wouldn't leave Northern Ireland so long as the 'RA were there.So basically it became this big conflict of ego where the 'RA, originally only there to protect Catholics for PR, didn't want to pull out before the Brits did, while the Brits, originally only there because there was conflict, didn't want to pull out until the 'RA did.Fuck the 'RA, the Brits and Loyalists all, by the way, but fuck the Loyalists most for starting the conflict and the Brits for escalating it. Every drop of blood spilt rests on Ian Paisley's hands.
>>18551837Because they were all "united" in how the English treated them like shit. Except the Protestants, who didn't really consider themselves Irish anyway.
>>18551825Okay. Decent start. Now ask yourself that same question about Kiev’s plans for Donetsk and Lukhansk.
>>18551837Ireland is a lot like India and vast chunks of Africa, their history is basically just a non-stop slaughterfest between dysfunctional groups that hated each other, that only stopped when the Brits shut that shit down and taught the natives that they were all one people.
>>18551825So even without unification, things were bleak in Northern Ireland for the Irish. The Ulster Unionist Party gerrymandered the shit out of the place and ensured that Irish Catholics had no real political influence as well as a lack of accessing to housing and employment.The RUC (police) were notoriously sectarian and when a civil rights movement grew in the 1960s to try reform the place, Loyalist Paramilitaries formed to attack them and often had the help of the police. The IRA were the last to join in, deciding that the time had come to get Britain the fuck out.>>18551837The idea of Ireland as a "nation" is extremely old, but when it unified and centralised (not long after England did) it suffered the sudden death and collapse of the power doing so. It was only just managing to centralise again when the Normans invaded-but even with the "British imposed unity" the want for self governance had been the majority view of the population since the 18th Century. Partition is the retarded option, unification in or out of the UK makes more sense.If anything, Anglo-Irish relations would be enormously warmer were it not for the Ulster Unionists who essentially burnt any and all chance of a 20th century in which Britain and Ireland are allies.
>>18552002The opposite is true. From the 7th Century onward Ireland had codified and universally applied laws restricting widespread warfare, on account of the Law of the Innocents. Non-combatants and their property were protected from harm during times of conflict, and as a result most Irish "wars" between different kingdoms consisted of raids or personal duels. Even with the fighting, the idea that the Irish were one people in one country is one that goes back thousands of years; the Irish knew themselves to be different from foreigners, and considered one another to be of the same people, merely different families.There were two occasions in which this idea of a nation came to be an actual nation, under the Dál gCais in the 10th and early 11th century and then again under the Ó Conchobhair in the 12th Century. The former was brought to an end when the High King+his heirs died defeating a Norse invasion, the latter during Henry II's invasion. Ireland was never conquered nor colonised by Rome, so lacked many of the benefits that places like England had from Roman infrastructure and developments.
>>18551825The descendants of the Anglo and Scottish colonists should be returned to their own nations. Then you can have a vote amongst the actual Irish and ask them if they want to stay. Decolonize the land first.
>>18551832I effort post about the Treaty of Versailles occasionally, make more threads about that.>I feel like a fucking fool for not realizing the principle antagonist to the British attempts to subjugate Ireland were not the Irish themselves but in fact the "Old English" (Normans who settled there immediately after the Norman conquest).I am not reading that book but was actually reading about this particular topic a little while ago while researching something else.
>>18551832>the principle antagonist to the British attempts to subjugate Ireland were not the Irish themselves but in fact the "Old English" Yes and no, important to remember that (for example) Gaelic Alliance's like that of Hugh O'Neill in the late 16th Century almost brought the Crown in Ireland to the brink of collapse.With the Old English you have powerful groups like the FitzGeralds certainly straddling the line between Gaelic Nobles and disgruntled English ones-many of these families would retain a dissenting tradition for a long time. Post Flight of the Earls most Catholic nobles (Gaelic stock or otherwise) would simply throw their weight behind the cause of the Stuarts, as that was their best chance to escape persecution. Thus it would remain until the birth of modern Irish Nationalism (Patriots and Republicans) in the late 18th Century.>>18552086NTA but I have a lot of interest in French revanchism in that period, if you made a thread about it I'd like to read it.
>>18552104>Gaelic Alliance's *Gaelic Alliances.
>>18551825You are a genuine retard and shouldn't speak about shit you have absolutely fuck all understanding of. Half the population of Northern Ireland are Irish Catholics who's loyalty is to the Irish nation. Moderate Protestant/British in Northern Ireland have no hatred of the rest of Ireland and many would support unification or at least not be too bothered if it happenedNorthern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are very integrated too and both jurisdictions and work together for the benefit of the whole island. You have absolutely no understanding op and are just a shit stirring dumb as fuck American retard.
>>18551837Nations can exist without a state. The Irish all shared the same language, culture, law system etc... Ireland is one of the oldest nations in the world.
>>18551944>Except the Protestants, who didn't really consider themselves Irish anyway.Presbyterians and non Anglican Protestants were subject to Penal laws too. In Ulster most Protestants are Presbyterians of Scots descent. In the 1790s Presbyterians and Catholics conspired to and rebelled to establish a Republic in Ireland but the attempts failed and then after the British government did everything they could to divide Presbyterian and Catholics and the sectarian Orange order was set up around the same time too.One of the reasons there was so many "Scots Irish" in America in the 1700s and huge numbers of them fighting for US independence was because they left the North of Ireland due to oppression from the British state.
>>18552002The Brits were the cause of much fighting in Ireland. They did their best to forment war between and within various Irish Clans. They would back rivals in the succession of a Chieftainship. In the Irish system leaders were chosen from among the sons and grandsons of the previous chief of a clan not the eldest son so the Brits were always backing their favoured candidate and it lead to war among families or with neighbouring clans who might have supported a different candidate. There would have been Irish clans allied with the English administration who they would have got to wage war on other clans who weren't on good terms with the crown administration.The country likely would have been united and under one king by the middle ages too had the Normans not come and caused all the shit that they did.
If it United today, which dynasty should be in charge? Do any of the old ones even exist anymore?I'd vote for the Stuarts if it was possible
>>18552574>O'NeillHugo Ricciardi O'Neill is the head of it, but he's been part of the O'Neills who have been in Portugal for centuries.>O'BrienThis old geezer from London.>O'ConorPretty sure these guys are in Sussex now
>>18552081Just them or do we return all the thirdies too?
>>18552123>Moderate Protestant/British in Northern Ireland have no hatred of the rest of Ireland and many would support unificationShow me the stats
>>18552712https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbJDDaEOGL8&t=97
>>18552724your source is a political ad?
>>18552597>Potuguese O'neils I like to Stumble onto random O'somethings in the history of the Spanish empire and successors, always fun. Of course you know about the O'Higgins'. But do you know about the Mexican Muralist O'Gorman?
>>18552712Polls around a United Ireland shift constantly and depend hugely on the poll itself. For example>Would you vote for a United Ireland NOW?Neither side reaches a majority, with the "No" vote usually being 10-15% ahead of the "Yes" vote.>Would you vote for a United Ireland in the future?The "Yes" vote almost always wins; in situations where "No" wins there are usually between 15% and 30% "undecided.Things like flags/the army/sectarianism do not motivate most voters in NI. Most voters in NI vote for left-wing parties (Sinn Féin/SDLP/Alliance/etc) and are not interested in hardline stuff. Given that the sole purpose of NI is to ensure a permanent Unionist majority, the fact that the "stay in the UK" vote can't even hit 50% in the polls anymore is not insignificant.
>>18553421There's a great book on that, " Paisanos: The Forgotten Irish Who Changed the Face of Latin America" (Tim Fanning). Great stuff about Admiral William Brown and his friendship with Garibaldi.
Anyone ITT who actually enjoys reading about history, here is a pdf of Sinn Féin's "Éire Nua.">Eire What?The social and economic programme of Sinn Féin in the 1970s. This is essentially what the Provisional IRA were fighting to establish, until the mid 1980s or so.The basics:>Federal RepublicEach of Ireland's 4 provinces-Ulster, Connacht, Leinster, Munster (sorry Meath)-would get their own regional government. This was aimed to avoid too much centralisation of power+economics in Dublin, and to address Unionist fears of Dublin governance.>Distributism I have heard a million definitions of this, Sinn Féin understood it as a happy compromise between Socialism+Capitalism in which private property remains but with much more cooperative ownership across industry and agriculture.>Everyone gets rightsA new charter of rights promising access to housing+welfare+human rights, inspired by the civil rights cause in Northern Ireland.Here's the pdf:https://republicanarchive.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/eire-nua-1971.pdf
>>18551837The philosophical concept of a united Gaelic Ireland has existed for millennia, even though the reality on the ground was decentralised clans. This is unlike something like India.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland
>>18553479>wikipedia page for High KingNTA but kekked, I'll do you a favour anon.Donnchadh Ó Corráin is the author you want to seek out, who has written extensively on this topic. He summarises that>yes, Ireland lacked political centralisation in the manner that many feudal polities in the rest of europe (particularly those that were once part of rome) had>but the Irish had a very clear sense of their own nationThis view is drawn from countless examples of references to Ireland as a collective entity rather than simply a geographical designation. For example:>Can a mbunadas na nGaedel (Máel Mura of Othan, 887)Máel Mura was the "Royal Poet of Ireland" and in this text he notes that despite the many names and dynasties within Ireland, they have a common point of origin. This is an idea that was built upon over centuries, including in "Lebor gabála Érenn" (11th Century) which again grants a common point of origin for the Irish.>Bretha CróligeThis is a surviving piece of Irish legal text which refers to what is essentially "sick pay" for the wounded. It standardises the system and payments on an island-wide basis, referring to it as the custom of Ireland. Where things differed it was usually due to differences of opinion in Brehon, not differences in the law.>AdomnánSaint Adomnán wrote that Diarmait mac Cerbaill was "the Ruler of all Ireland", whilst other texts during his life point to Tara as the capital of the Irish.The long and short of it is that by at least around the 7th Century, there seems to been a common idea in Ireland that the entire island encompassed one group set aside from others in Britain and further afield; while politically disunited, there was clearly a sense that there was *in theory* a ruler of all Ireland and *in theory* an Irish realm encompassing all of the island. It's just that most Kings struggled to rule it, and a lack of economic centralisation allowed only Tara to endure as a "capital."
>>18553487Of course, the idea of a nation isn't enough to make a nation. The difference here is that it was more than an idea-there were many attempts to make it a reality, indicating that the main obstacle to doing so was not a lack of precedent but a lack of stability. It's for this reason that the rise of the Dál gCais (>>18552058) is seen by many as a "lost" chance for Ireland to unify in a similar manner to that of neighbouring England. A region of disunited kingdoms are rallied together by a powerful king who takes war to the Vikings in the region-he succeeds, and now controls the entire region. In this scenario the Dál gCais of Munster are akin to the Kingdom of Wessex, and Brian Boru akin to Alfred the Great-just 75 years later.But even if we ditch all this to take a strictly anglophilic approach, we have centuries of precedent for Irish self-governance under a variety of dynasties (Tudor, Stuart, Hanover) and in the late 18th Century the concept of Ireland was an empowered and autonomous nation was extremely popular even amongst the landed Protestant gentry. Even on this very reductive and strict definition, we can see that from the 1780s right through to the partition of Ireland that there was a clear and consistent idea that the Irish nation should run itself, even if it shared a monarch with England. Only for a brief period following the forceful shuttering of Ireland's parliament was this "not the case", even though this was the period in which Ireland saw the monster meetings of the "repeal the union" campaign. There are ultimately two outcomes;>Ancient Irish nationhoodIn which the idea of an Irish nation dates back to the 7th Century, maybe earlier.>Modern Irish nationhoodIn which self governance as an all-island body was the backbone of the cause, with British incompetence and malice toward its "citizens" being the main cause of secession (similarly to other places).Thankfully we can all agree partition is the most retarded option.
>>18553487A wikipedia summary is fine when you want to introduce a concept to someone without going into details.
>>18553495>Thankfully we can all agree partition is the most retarded option.no it isnt taig
>>18553611Partition was certainly the worst option for everyone involved, anon.>Irish UnionistsAs noted by the huge Unionist conventions in Cavan+Monaghan in the run up to partition, Unionism (and more broadly, anti-republican politics) existed in Ireland as an extremely significant minority. Need we forget that in the 1918 elections, 28 seats went to parties completely opposed to Irish independence. Unionists outside of the northeast warned that partition would reduce pro-british politics in Ireland from a large minority to near non-existent, and that's exactly what happened. To be Irish was to be a Republican, anything else had died out by the time Fine Gael was founded to mop up their votes against Fianna Fáil.>Irish NationalistsWhether Republican or Home Ruler, neither got what they wanted and both lost a great deal along the way.>Ulster UnionistsLeft with a rump state which descended almost instantly into corruption and the erosion of both democracy and the economy. Incompetence and malice from the UUP saw Northern Ireland collapse in on itself barely 50 years after it was founded. The Troubles ended in a laundry list of concessions to Nationalists, with NI limping along in a mandatory coalition which neither half of the population really likes. Most people no longer vote Unionist.>The BritishThe UK carved up at the behest of a small minority; they threw their lot in with the Ulster Unionists and their reward was endless betrayal and concessions. Whether you believe Ireland should be British or independent, Catholic or Protestant, partition is by far the most retarded choice.
>>18551825>why try liberate your country from foreign colonials?the empire is over, it's time to give it back. the north is literally the anus of the uk at this point, it's going to be better to be united and in the EU than connected to the failure the UK is
>>18553659>ulster is le rump corrupt state without democracy>but muh free state was based. it wasnt as if we were a theocracy controlled by corrupt monks and nuns who stuffed babies in septic tanks or anything
>>18553901>it wasnt as if we were a theocracy controlled by corrupt monks and nuns who stuffed babies in septic tanks or anythingThe Free State/Republic of Ireland at the most abhorrent days of the "Catholic Constitution" did not experience the level of everyday discrimination that Northern Ireland did on its better days.The first Magdalene laundry was Protestant-run, anon.
>>18554016Its easy to not discriminate against other religions when you firebomb them and force them to go up north or to the island of britain itselfireland was a catholic theocracy until the 90s with condoms banned stop coping taig
>>18554089>with condoms bannedWhat
>>18554089>firebomb them and force them to go up north *Keep them over-represented in both government and key agricultural+industrial sectors and working hard to suppress radical extremists.Who did Cumann na nGaedheal or Fianna Fáil firebomb? Which Protestants did they mistreat?
>>18553700>it's time to give it backso the irish can fill it with refugees?
