Why did Western Indo-Europeans abandon pastoralism in favor of agriculture? Even Bronze Age cultures like Unetice, the Nordic Bronze Age, and later Iron Age cultures like Hallstatt, La Tene, Tumulus, etc., already had agriculture as their main means of subsistence.
>>18552355That's not entirely true. The Lusitanians still followed a pastoral way of life to some extent, at least. Even in Roman times...
>>18552355The Goths had cattle, but I think that was Sarmatian influence.
>>18552355I'm not familiar with those cultures, but the early Germanic tribes relied heavily on pastoralism, supplemented by seasonal agriculture>>18552376Not entirely true
>>18552380In the Battle of Vercelli, after the Germanic front line collapsed in the open field, the survivors retreated to the wagon camp. The wagons were tied together to form a circular "fortress". Furthermore, I believe that pastoralism may have been their main means of subsistence, and agriculture was a supplement, mainly due to the northern soil.
>>18552404This article is useful for anyone who wants to read it, and surprisingly, it's not just the Germanic peoples who raised livestock, but the Greeks as well, on a large scale.I think we're underestimating livestock farming too much. It's true that they were agricultural societies, but it's not as if livestock was something completely separate from society
>>18552362>>18552404>>18552409Wow, thanks for the information. But the Germanic peoples primarily used itinerant pastoralism for subsistence, right?
>>18552355This isn't exactly true. The British Isles and Ireland continued it, and I believe the main reason you can probably see a decline in England would be because it became densely populated. Ireland remained a paradise for pastoralists and continues to be suitable for grazing since much of the landscape has not fallen to over urbanization.The development of densely populated urban centers is in opposition to rural lifestyles, but much of Europe outside the Mediterranean remained wide open. That's why Celtic tribes like the Boii were able to continue roaming with Cattle.
>>18552412Possibly Tacitus (Germ. 5) states that Germania was rich in flocks and herds, but these are, for the most part, "underdeveloped" and ugly, and he concluded by saying that quantity is primarily valued, and that the cattle are the most precious and "the only wealth of the people."
>>18552355Cattle was integral to western European sedentary agriculture since the LBK collapse. And CWC and Yamnaya groups continued transhumance into their sedentary phases almost everywhere, they just became bigger graincels.
>>18552431
>>18552439>LBKNobody asked about farmoidsThey can rest in peace now
>>18552441>but these are for the most part undersized, and even the cattle have not their usual beauty or noble head. It is number that is chiefly valued; they are in fact the most highly prized, indeed the only riches of the people. https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/germania.htmlYes, the Germanic peoples were a society highly dependent on herders.
>>18552445>>18552441>>18552431Interesting Thank you
>>18552439>And CWC and Yamnaya groups continued transhumance into their sedentary phases almost everywhere, they just became bigger graincels.There's no need to spread lies.
>>18552443If cattle had been used continuously in the west since that period then the distinction between pastoralism and agriculture is just dumb. Nomadism and sedentarism is the only meaningful distinction.
>>18552452That's literally how Greece, Rome and the middle ages came about.
>>18552454See>>18552443Not a farmoid thread
>>18552454>>18552439Or maybe you're the only dumb one among us, what do you think? First of all, your statement that Yamnaya and CWC had their "agricultural" phase is not true. The late Yamnaya (Catacomb) as well as late Corded Ware (Fatyanovo) phases were both dependent on pastoralism as their main means of subsistence; it's not as if the early Indo-Europeans depended on agriculture. The agricultural vocabulary in PIE is extremely limited. Even in the later stages of Yamnaya, we don't have much evidence of what you call "sedentary lifestyle." Sedentary practices only became relatively common among IEs in MBA...The distinction is still valid, and even those northern farmers like Funnelbeaker, GAC, Baden, etc., who practiced pastoralism to some extent, still didn't have it as their main means of subsistence. One of the theories that led the GAC to the Balkans is mainly due to this, the lack of arable land in the north. But not as relevant to the thread, honestly.
The trolltard ended the thread.
They didn't really.Just recognized that they could grow grain for animal feed.Agriculture and pastoralism actually complement one another for this reason.Pastoralism technically continues to exist even today.Maybe not as a nomadic lifestyle, but certain people were specialized for animal husbandry and care a long time ago and it's still true.
>>18552404The northern soil was more fertile than today and was significantly warmer. Why can’t you nordicists just admit your ancestors were crypto Gypsies?
>>18552481We became the farmoids. >>18552496I didn't say you are dumb. Your distinction here is. You can be a nomadic herders or sedentary herders. Sedentary populations farm and utilize grain more. Simple asIn the CWC > Single Grave Culture transition and Yamnaya groups that penetrated the Eastern Mediterranean, they all transitioned to sedentarism. I won't address your etymology rambling because it's irrelevant. Sredny Stog and all those later groups grew what grain they could and defend. The steppe just favored cattlemaxxing. But even those things like domesticated cattle were from the fertile crescent and Anatolia initially. The whole neolithic package is. I'm not a southern arc fag it's just a proven reality of material culture.
Interestingly, in certain Indo-European languages, even in agricultural societies like Rome and greece,the connection between the word for livestock and wealth was preserved.
>>18552496Lol the troll got btfo
>>18552568>nordicistsTake your medicine, you worm. What does that have to do with anything I said? You and your friend should stop trolling
>>18552419To be an Aryan is, in part, to possess your own cattle. Irish evidence preserves this aspect of the definition. You’re not an Aire without cows. The PIE compound “possessing 100 cows” also survives indirectly in the name Buchet, a famous herdsman from Irish literature.
>>18552678NTA But Yes, in medieval Ireland the Cattle heads and hooves gifted by the clan chief were a form of currency - head and hoof grave deposits were commonplace throughout Bronze Age Europe, Competing patrilineages, constant low-intensity conflict, cattle raiding etc
>>18552441>>18552445>>18552409>>18552404Ironically, Very aryan
>>18552591The early Indo-Europeans did not "practice agriculture." This is the crux of the matter. You assert that etymologies and their respective semantics are irrelevant because they present a problem for your claims. It would be incoherent to possess such a basic and limited agricultural vocabulary if agriculture were indeed essential to these populations. The core Proto-Indo-European lexicon is restricted to a small number of specific crops, the plow, and rudimentary seed-processing techniques. Literally just that. See https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/lex/semantic/field/AV_PLOne may concede that they possessed some agricultural knowledge, a position with which no academic would take issue. Yes, but to claim that they practiced agriculture in a substantive capacity, or that it constituted a relevant component of early Indo-European societies, is inaccurate. Sredny Stog, Yamnaya, and early Corded Ware societies were neither agriculturalists nor "sedentary." The presence of settlements does not, in itself constitute sedentism. sedentism became prevalent among populations of the Middle Bronze Age, not the Early Bronze Age. The Andronovo societies, as well as certain Middle Bronze Age European groups, are most accurately characterized as "agro-pastoral." Nevertheless, agriculture never functioned as the primary mode of subsistence.---*O que ajustei:* tom, sintaxe, registro vocabular para nível acadêmico, e corrigi `Srendy Stog` -> `Sredny Stog` e `Androvic` -> `Andronovo`. Cadê meu beijo?
Agriculture makes it possible to generate huge food surpluses in regions that have good year-round conditions for it. This means agriculturalist societies can grow quickly, while pastoralists tend to have comparably smaller, more divided populations over the same amount of land. We know that knowledge of farming spread from people to people, rather than being continuously independently developed, so pastoralists were likely either absorbed by much larger agriculturalist societies neighboring them, or turned to farming as an alternative or supplement for herding, and eventually came to rely on it more as it generated food surpluses more reliably.There's a few reasons they might have to resort to farming, and probably the simplest is competition for pasture. If there's less land to go around, then people will have to use the land more efficiently, and agriculture can produce a lot more food from the same amount of land. I imagine the transition from herding to farming was gradual. And eventually the semi-wild herds became penned, domesticated livestock.
>>18552685and this was just Germania millennia after the aryan migrations, imagine hyperborea
>>18552591The farmoids in Europe stopped the Turkics but the Iranic herders in Central Asia got raped to death. Farming is simply the winning play.
>>18552355>Why did pastoralists engage in pastoralism in dry grassland but engage in agriculture in rich fertile soils?Why do retards like this even post here? Is this REALLY the caliber of the average midwit? What the fuck, man?
The thread reminded me of the place name Boeotia.Βοιωτία is cognate with Vedic ⟨gávyūti-⟩ "pasture".Both words are from PIE *gʷóu̯-hₓi̯uh3-ti.*gʷóu̯-hₓi̯uh3-t° > *gʷóu̯-i̯uh3-t° > *gʷói̯-u̯əh3-t° > *gʷói̯-u̯ɔ̄-t° > Βοιωτ°https://www.academia.edu/167363870/The_fat_pasture_Greek_%CE%92%CE%BF%CE%B9%CF%89%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%B1_and_Vedic_g%C3%A1vy%C5%ABti
>>18552711lel brazilian lol its not me. atop trolling and stop using google IA>>18552591>Your distinction here is.Why? The early Indo-Europeans were neither sedentary nor farmers. You keep lying here and talking to yourself
I just noticed something here: this Brazilian>>18552711is copying and pasting my posts—and posts from elsewhere—just like he always does. He’s been caught doing this before, even with content from generic, dead blogs. So, for anyone who might think they’re talking to other anons: be aware that a lunatic using Google Translate could be copying your posts and feeding them into an AI. These posts by Andronvo about being agropastoral, etc., are copied from what I had written previouslyRegarding the thread's discussion: These peoples are traditionally considered nomadic herders who introduced animal husbandry between approximately 2900 and 2300 cal BC. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352409X18302566There are no scientific articles positing that they had a sedentary or agriculturalist phase. it would be absurd to claim the opposite based on the archaeological evidence—though if our friend wishes to share articles stating otherwise, you>>18552591 are welcome to do so. The same applies to the Yamnaya and the SSC.This study analyzed dental calculus from Yamnaya individuals, and milk peptides from cows, sheep, goats, and even horses account for nearly all the samples analyzed. A subsistence strategy based on the production of portable dairy products—rather than subsistence agriculture—provided the caloric fuel that enabled mass migrations across the steppes. I ask again: where is the evidence of agriculture?https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03798-4
>>18553120To avoid confusion, this is me>>18552404>>18552409>>18552445>>18552441>>18552666So, Stop trolling and pretending to be other people like a mentally retarded person. You lost again.
Finally, this is off-topic due to the low knowledge of some users here, but there's something interesting I'd like to reiterate. The authors Lubotsky and Tijmen Pronk proposed a very interesting explanation for the issue of agriculture among the PIE. Something you're ignoring is that crops cannot be securely reconstructed at the earliest PIE stage Furthermore, they stated that the original meaning of the term may have been more basic, something like "crush," and could even have referred to clearing land for cattle, which would not necessarily imply strict agricultural usage. This is contrary to what our friend claims above. I also think it's useful to say that several PIE terms for "cereals" may have originally referred to wild grains that were collected, not planted. It's possible that some Yamnaya and other steppe groups probably consumed wild cereals to supplement their meat and dairy-based diet, but it was by no means the main diet throughout the existence of this culture as seen.>>18553120And it seems that a reconstructed term appears only in Indo-Iranian and Eastern Baltic languages. In some daughter languages it means "bread," in others "grain." In specific Indo-Iranian it refers to "roasted grains." The authors' hypothesis is that the original term may have been linked to roasting wild cereals, not cultivating them.
>>18553120This has happened to me before some of my posts were copied with subtle changes and posted as if they were "original"
>>18553034>>18552682>>18552678Do not forget the importance of herd raids for the development of the warlike nature of the Proto-Indo-Europeans.
>>18552355Same reason as everyone else, because agriculture is just magnitudes more efficient. With agriculture you can feed more than a hundred times more people than pastoralists can on the same plot of land. Anyone who doesn't adopt agriculture will simply be overwhelmed by those that do. Thus the only regions where Pastoralism survived were in biomes where agriculture wasn't possible in the first place, like the Eurasian steppe or the Arabian desert.
>>18552666Aire in Old Irish was connected to status/nobility as well as guardianship (e.g. OIr bóaire = cow-lord/guardian). In Scottish Gaelic, the latter meaning prevailed. Aire and its derivatives are related to watchfulness/care and, specifically, pastoralism. Old school Aryanism.
>>18553120Middle Dnieper Culture (early subgroup of Corded Ware Culture).1. Economy: Cattle herding along with some agriculture.2. Lived in houses with pillars and hearths. 3. Had kurgans, flat graves, and even cremations.4. Culture included both stone axes and metal axes. 5. Theorized by some archeologists to have a solar and fire cult.
>>18553313>Aire and its derivatives are related to watchfulness/care and, specifically, pastoralism. Old school Aryanism.No, this is not "old school". You are pointing out recently created homophones in Irish. Watchfulness/care has nothing to do with Aryan terms. There isn't even an indication these contrasting senses were confused in Old Irish.
>>18554079Nta Got it. You are extremely ignorant, and your arrogance in trying to "correct" people will be your downfall. Allow me to refute you.>No, this is not "old school". You are pointing out recently created homophones in Irish. Watchfulness/care has nothing to do with Aryan terms. This is not something "recent", but rather a shared inheritance from Proto-Indo-European societies, and in the case of Ireland, it is incredibly similar to Vedic India in certain points. The king was called `rí`. The royal inauguration rite received the technical name `banais rígi`. Meanwhile, `aire` means "freeman" and functioned as an inclusive term for `flaith` and `aithech`. Finally, `fili` means "poet", being the most important figure of the learned class `oes dána`. In ancient Ireland and India, poets were rewarded generously for a good verse, often with cattle. Early Irish poetry and the RV record the gratitude of poets to their patrons.To be an Aryan is, in part, to possess your own cattle. Irish evidence preserves this aspect. The PIE compound “possessing 100 cows” also survives indirectly in the name Buchet, a famous herdsman from Irish literature.> There isn't even an indication these contrasting senses were confused in Old Irish. That is objectively false.The table proposes that ancient Ireland and Vedic India preserved the same four-tier social structure inherited from Proto-Indo-European. `aire`, the Irish term for noble and freeman, shares the PIE root `_hēryos` with Sanskrit `āryaḥ`, used to designate the three upper castes and "lord". The third tier is that of producers and landed freemen, the Irish `bóaire`, literally "cow-freeman", equivalent to the Indian `vaiśyaḥ`, the agriculturalist and merchant caste. At the bottom are the unfree, the Irish `doír` and the Hindu `śūdraḥ` or `dāsah`, both derived from PIE `_dōsos`, meaning "slave" or "servant" and cognate with Greek `doulos`.
>>18554129
>>18554132>>18554129So these anons are actually correct, my tip for everyone here is that before venturing to correct people making empty statements, make an effort to research the subject at least a little to avoid embarrassment. As I know that reading isn't one of the most sought-after skills here, basically: Wealth in livestock defined the status of a "free man" (aire) and in Irish society functioned as the main measure of social status and legal rights in ancient Ireland, as in Vedic India and other Indo-European societies. See the ancient legal document Críth Gablach, which established that a "free man" should possess an exact number of animals: ten cows, ten pigs, and ten sheep.
>>18554138>>18554132>>18554129Kek anon got obliterated
>>18554129>>18554132>>18554138>This is not something "recent", but rather a shared inheritanceNo, you typed a lot but nothing was said to support your belief. All you needed to do was consult an Old Irish dictionary instead of letting your imagination run away unchecked.https://dil.ie/search?q=aire&search_in=headword>1 aire>n [iā] f.>(a) As vn. act of guarding, watching over, tending, caring for:>(b) notice, heed, attention: >3 aire>n k, m. (orig. io)>In Laws . . . used to describe every freeman, `commoner' as well as noble, who possesses an independent legal status . . . Occasionally, however, aire is used in the more restricted sense of `noble' (as oppd. to `commoner'), which is its usual meaning in the literature>In more general sense noble, chiefNotice that 1 aire is a feminine iā-stem while 3 aire comes in two forms: a masculine k-stem and a masculine io-stem. There is no evidence of "notice, heed, attention" being associated with Aryan terms in Indo-European generally and you have given us no reason to believe Old Irish speakers conflated 1 aire and 3 aire. Native Old Irish speakers could tell the difference between masculine and feminine words of different stem types.I have no idea why you want to shoehorn this random sense into the Aryan terms. It's misguided, and nothing needs it. For example, bóaire has nothing to do with "notice, heed, attention".
>>18554473>no argumentsYou can pretend to be retarded all you want, it's your right, I don't care. Notice how your post was answered point by point and your only response was simply to say that I wrote too much and you didn't even have the capacity to refute or even answer anything at all. That's what I call a concession. Notice how your entire post is a strawman that you yourself created to bark here..the issue was never whether these words meant "notice, heed, attention"—that's your straw man and your chronic schizophrenia. I challenge you to refute what was said. Let's recap what was said.1. The parallels between ancient Ireland and Vedic India are not "recent homophones", but a shared inheritance from Proto-Indo-European societies.2 Ancient Ireland had a king called `rí`, a royal inauguration rite called `banais rígi`, `aire` meaning "freeman" as an inclusive term for `flaith` and `aithech`, and `fili` meaning "poet" as the chief figure of the `oes dána` learned class.3. In both ancient Ireland and India, poets were paid with cattle for good verse, and both Early Irish poetry and the Rigveda record poets’ gratitude to their patrons.4.To be an "Aryan" meant, in part, to possess your own cattle. Irish and Vedic evidence preserves this, as you’re not an `Aire` without cows. The PIE compound “possessing 100 cows” survives indirectly in the name `Buchet`, a famous Irish herdsman.5. Ancient Ireland and Vedic India preserved the same four-tier social structure from PIE:- `aire` = Irish noble/freeman, from PIE `_hēryos`, cognate with Sanskrit `āryaḥ` = "lord".- `bóaire` = Irish "cow-freeman", equivalent to Indian `vaiśyaḥ` = agriculturalist/merchant.- `doír` = Irish unfree, from PIE `_dōsos` = "slave/servant", cognate with Hindu `śūdraḥ`/`dāsah` and Greek `doulos`.You lost, again.
>>18554796Anon, ignore that pooper he's a little troll with identity issues who cries and has mental breakdowns whenever the word Aryan is mentioned At this point it's obvious the distinction between pastoralist and non-pastoralist in Celtic culture goes way back to CWC Aryans It's better preserved in India and Ireland. Freemen is a pastoralist.>>18554473You idiot, that's not what he wrote why are u trolling again?
>>18554803He created a strawman in his head instead of addressing the main points and citing the sources presented..That's what bothers me here: people are so arrogant to correct the eachother, but there's no effort whatsoever to stay on topic. I think this schizophrenic is confusing the users here and putting words in my mouth. Also, What are the chances that it's the same idiot who was impersonating me earlier and got caught using Google Translate?
>>18554810Nah I don't think it's the Brazilian bcuz he usually posts a horrible picture with his face on it
>>18554796I don't know why you are talking about so many irrelevant things. It's almost entertaining watching you post so much in response.Let me reiterate:Read the dictionary.1 aire has no semantic relation to 3 aire, and you have not shown that 1 aire even exists outside of Irish.
>>18554796Interesting, there's nothing similar between the Slavs, who are supposedly the closest linguistically to the Iranians.
>>18554796Troll obliterated
>>18553136Abashevo is the ancestor of Sintashta and Srubnaya and descended from Fatyanovo. Like other cultures of the Corded Ware horizon but unlike the earlier Yamnaya they were less mobile and practiced pastoralism along with some agriculture (at least according to some archeological evidence). During this culture we see the the emergence of metal headdresses for women that may of influenced the ones seen in Sintashta, Srubnaya and Andronovo.
>>18554903At this point, I don't even bother responding to this schizophrenic he or she simply backed down and submitted, granting me the concession >>18554923>Corded Ware horizon but unlike the earlier Yamnaya they were less mobile and practiced pastoralism along with some agricultureYes... and what's the problem here?
>>18554903Not a troll, just a Vishnu defender>>18554926You couldn't answered md
>>18554926Go back and read my original post and what I was responding to. Read it twice. There is no possible way you could misunderstand this badly unless there is a machine translation filter or you yourself are trolling.
>>18554927>Not a troll, just a Vishnu defenderDon't interrupt the conversation
>>18554927>>18554833You again? Don't worry about why. If you can't provide examples I don't need your input and you need to stop wasting my time. You refuse to read my valid statements and you repeat strawmans And you keep putting words in my mouth such as>you have not shown that 1 aire even exists outside of Irish.? What are you even talking about you schizophrenic? Who said that in the first place, you retard?You have even made false accusations of me in the past and you have not apologized!The challenge continues: Refute these arguments>>18554796 and good luck showing why these reconstructions are wrong. Like a dog in heat, you just barked and barked and couldn't answer anything
>>18554929You're the only idiot trolling, sameflag You're clinging to something nobody said. Like, literally, nobody Why are you trying to seem intellectual debating something that isn't even a thing? denying that Aryanism was related to pastoralism and that there are cognates in Europe outside of India is a symptom of biased nationalism or trolling. Stop disrupting the thread
>>18554935>>18554932>>18554796Hey you dumb ass stop feeding the troll! Don't you realize that's what this piece of carrion wants?
>>18554935>denying that Aryanism was related to pastoralismThis is what I said:>Watchfulness/care has nothing to do with Aryan terms.You have not responded to this. I don't think you even understood what I meant.1 aire is not an Aryan term.3 aire is an Aryan term.I am correcting your confused understanding of Irish terms. bóaire is NOT "cow guardian". It is "cow noble/freeman". 1 aire and 3 aire were not confused in Old Irish. 1 aire is a iā-stem. 3 aire is a io-stem. 1 aire has a different etymology from 3 aire.3 aire is cognate with Sanskrit aryá-.1 aire is something else entirely.If you still do not understand, turn off your machine translation and pull out and English dictionary.
>>18554938Fair enough. Let that crazy guy cry alone.>>18554942I stopped talking to you and your Punjabic arguments lmao>YouLmao This isn't me Why do you think we're all the same person here? lol
I think I understand the reason for the confusion this boy caused. He thinks I am this user>>18553313 even though I categorically differentiated myself previously... >>18553124so there is no reason for him to think that, and he insisted on accusing me of agreeing with the etymologies proposed by that user and making it seem like I was the author. Stupidity or malice? Another problem was his response to this user, which was extremely strange and implied that he was saying that aire has no relation to "Aryan" and even less to "pastoralism." Which forced me to respond. All of this could have been avoided if you knew how to communicate better and were more coherent in your statements and stopped thinking we're all the same person, and his responses to me weren't much better either. Just a >hmm that's false because it's false, okay?which made me suppose he was just an upset user. Did you see how much time you made us waste? Did you see how useless this discussion was?The lack of response to my posts is basically due to the fact that there was nothing to respond to in the first place.
>>18554966>implied that he was saying that aire has no relation to "Aryan"Never happened.1 aire is unrelated though
>>18554966Poor boy, he must have fallen out of his crib when he was a baby.
I know you're reading this thread Mr. O.Don't get it wrong again.
