I didn't think they'd actually do it. Now they're as relevant as literal who sedecavantists.

>>18555764
>Now they're as relevant as literal who sedecavantists.
that's not true, there were much more people participating at these new consecrations than in 1988 and those who'll leave the society after this will be much fewer since the split over illicit consecrations already happened when the FSSP was formed

t. eastern orthodox but ecumenical with anti-modernists of other christian churches

Fuck yeah a chud schism

>>18555499
>get excommunicated
>in 30 years the excommunication will be lifted by whatever pope is currently in the cuck chair
>a few years later they will consecrate new bishops and start it again
Just like last time. Popery is so retarded.

>>18555845
>t. eastern orthodox but ecumenical with anti-modernists of other christian churches
I'm subscribed to some traditionalist anti-ecumenist orthodox channel on youtube and I was surprised to see their charitable sounding post about the SSPX in light of the new consecrations lol

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>>18555845
>>18555869
forgot the pic

>>18555499
>in the middle of the consecration ceremonies a storm broke out
When Pius IX declared the dogma of papal infallibility in 1870 there was a massive thunderstorm over Rome and right when announcing the decree a lightning struck St. Peter's Basilica and darkened the sky to the point that the attendants were forced to light candles inside

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>>18555874
this approach is not entirely new, there were catholic clergy which joined the orthodox church after Vatican I, especially among the old catholics, Abbé Guettée is a famous example
>Guettée's examination of the papacy opened his eyes to a whole system of errors, which, under his scrutiny, "collapsed like the walls of Jericho at Joshua's trumpets." If Fr. Guettée had any lingering doubts concerning Orthodoxy, they were dispelled by Bishop Leonty of Petersburg, who came to Paris for the consecration of the Russian church. By this time no half-way solution such as Jansenism or Old Catholicism could satisfy Fr. Guettée. He saw that outside of Orthodoxy, everything else simply wandered around or near the truth, but only Orthodoxy possessed it. "From my conversations with His Grace," wrote Fr. Guettée, "it became clear that although formally I was not Orthodox, I was nevertheless a genuinely Orthodox writer... And I fervently desired to become Orthodox in deed, i.e., to belong to the Russian Church." At the order of the Holy Synod, Guettée was received into the Orthodox Church in his clerical rank, without being reordained. At the recommendation of the professors of the Moscow Academy, Fr. Vladimir was awarded the rank of Doctor of Theology, and he was given a diploma written up by Metropolitan Philaret himself.

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>>18555499
I honestly thought that their remaining two bishops would just pass away and then the Society would split into one side joining sedevacantist groups and the other the FSSP but now it seems that we have Econe 1988 all over again.

>sspx thread
>filled with orthodoxposters
so are lefebvrists just photians

>went from a somewhat interest dissident element within the Catholic Church to just being sedevacantist schismatics
Why

>>18555931
>went from a somewhat interest dissident element within the Catholic Church to just being sedevacantist schismatics
they aren't sedevacantists and even now they are much gentler in tone towards the Pope than they were after the first consecrations when Lefebvre literally called JPII the anti-christ and his co-consecrator de Castro Mayer was telling people at Econe that they have no Pope

>>18555936
>even now they are much gentler in tone
How many days is that going to last after a bunch of automatic excommunications due to open schism

https://xcancel.com/MLJHaynes/status/2072355890359837022

Posting a tweet because I'm too lazy to download and repost it on /wsg/. It's from one of the new SSPX bishops.
>If the Catholic Church in her Tradition brings forth life, the modernist church is a desert that kills everything that it touches. It kills the supernatural life, the sources of grace & has placed man in the place of God.

Isn't this just sedevacantism with extra steps?

>>18555939
it's true that the dialogue and openess of Bishop Fellay with Benedict XVI and Francis has been made irrelevant by these new consecrations but we can't know for sure what will happen, it would make more sense imo for the SSPX to just adopt sedeprivationism (not sedevacantism) but given that they are lefebvrists and Lefebvre didn't agree with the sedeprivationist thesis of Fr. des Lauriers then that's unlikely to happen in any official way for the Society.

>>18555944
>Isn't this just sedevacantism with extra steps?
it's just what Lefebvre himself said, whatever this lefebvrism means

The Holy See has been extremely tolerant of those petulant freaks for decades, and where did that lead to? Open schism. It's time for mass excommunications, SSPX should go the way of the Palmarians.

Can a RC explain why the church seems so adamant about suppressing the latin mass? Or is this a sort of political ordeal where suppressing the latin mass is just a casualty of a larger issue? is it about the people in SSPX rather than some sort of tradition thing?

>>18555971
>is it about the people in SSPX rather than some sort of tradition thing?
the SSPX is the reason why Rome even allowed the latin mass in the first place, as a compromise to keep people who want the latin mass in full communion with them instead of going to the SSPX

>>18555971
>church seems so adamant about suppressing the latin mass
Because jews hate latin, Rome, Christianity and the Church. So when they took control of the Vatican after WW2 they set about banning things while exulting Rabbinism.

>>18555499


DO YOU MEAN THAT, ON AN OVERCAST DAY, DURING RAINY SEASON, IT RAINED?

UAU.

LEARN HOW TO POST EMBEDDABLE LINKS, MORON.

>>18556001
so you're a lefebvrist?

>>18556002


THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS «LEFEBVREISM».

>>18555971
Rome has been suppressing various Western Rites for over 1,000 years. Pope's outwardly subscribe to current year-ism and use that and Protestantism as an excuse to modernize the Mass.
To be fair, Latin is not spoken by most of the parishioners, so it's not an ideal language for liturgy attended by lay people.
t. Eastern Orthodox

>Umm actually we aren't in schism because automatic excommunications don't count, you have to write to us that we are excommunicated for it to be valid

what did they mean by this?

>>18555887
How brown does your skin have to be to believe this?

So is it automatic excommunication

>>18556028
They recognize the Pope is on the council, but do not grant him the rank of Master.

>>18556081
How are the SSPX different from western rite Orthodoxy

>>18556082
They generally want the Pope's authority to be stronger and use the passing of V2 and the Magisterium relying on too much "worldly" research before every decision as examples of why the recent Popes, while all legitimate, are modernist pussies and guided in some decisions by Satan, hence paradoxically disobeying the Pope's authority in this case despite being firm supporters of papal supremacy.
They're kinda forced to act now before their own super special line of consecration from 1988 that does not accept V2 goes extinct, the last two bishops who stilled traveled across the world performing sacraments for the theologically incestual community are one foot in the grave.

>>18556093
Im going to bed now because I'm sleepy AF but I'm sure there are some logical contradictions in their line of reasoning.

>>18555971
For the same reason the church suppressed or outlawed non-tridentine forms of mass at the council of trent: the church values obedience and uniformity.

>>18556093
Does the profound irony of dissenting against the pope over dogma not occur to these people?

>>18555915
that was the vatican's "plan"
they thought they could just wait for the bishops to die and the SSPX would die lmao
the antipope is too busy licking nigger feet to give a single fuck about traditionalist catholicism or why it exists anyway, i'm not sure why the SSPX doesn't just schism and declare the vatican invalid. money, probably. which is an extremely gay reason

>>18556130
uniformity of worshipping pachamama and believing hindus and muslims worship the same god as catholics. what a joke
>obedience and uniformity
ok now excommunicate everyone involved with synodal way and all politicans promoting abortion. oh wait leo has to suck 100,000 more nigger feet first.

>>18555499
>CERN turned off a couple days before

>>18556130
>the church suppressed or outlawed non-tridentine forms of mass at the council of trent: the church values obedience and uniformity.

What happened to St. Ambrose's "When in Rome, do as the Romans do?"

>>18556172
Pope does thing I like = based and infallible vicarius fillus dek
Pope does thing I don't like = misguided non binding

>>18555499
I read that there are somehow 1.4 billion catlics and 400k priests

This means that every priest has 3,500 catlics

If each bishop has 3,500 priests, and those priests have 3,500 catlics, then 4 new bishops will equal almost 50 million new catlics. Is that necessary?

>>18556169
You people always confused me. Why would an internet racist join a religion literally called "the universal church" where the majority of its members are nonwhite. At least pagan larpers are consistent

>>18556216
Often they literally do not finish reading the literature before converting because of actual psyops

>>18556216
i'm not catholic that would be retarded.
as to your other point, god approves of racial differences and continued racial identity as he created them in genesis (tower of babel)
"racism" literally didn't exist prior to the 20th century it was just how everyone behaved. same will be true soon after liberalism completely dies.
muslims are racist hindus are racist, chinese are racist jews are extremely racist. it's only "christian" and western secular mud golems in 20th and 21st centuries that convince themselves they aren't racist. soon that will be extinct.
clergy of the SSPX are significantly younger than the gay pedo pink mafia "priests" in mainstream catholicism and they would probably be considered racist for not kissing niggers feet every five nanoseconds too

>>18556322
liberalism is being replaced by communism, seethe and cope buddy

>>18556328
and communists are racist as fuck. against white people, because it's jewish. you retarded cunt

>>18556332
lol

>>18556334
who were the main enemies of communists in the 20th century?
"imperialists", which just means western europeans and the anglosphere
was marx jewish? yes. was the bolshevik revolution spearheaded by jews? yes. (200 years together)
modern marxist groups all support BLM and fuck whitey and fuck white men for being racist against le wholesome niggers

now before you reply, ask yourself if i'm actually wrong or if you're arguing about nothing for fun

>>18555499
>Old pedophiles wearing dresses
UHHH... BASED DEPARTMENT??? Tbf it would be more based if they had epic beards....

>>18556159
I think the whole point is that the pope refuses to deal in dogma, therefore making himself irrelevant.
It's not like he can use "worldly research" to make pronunciations ex cathedra.

>>18555971
The Latin mass was instituted in a time when Latin was the universal international language of European Christendom. But today, Latin is essentially dead language spoken by almost no one.

Ultimately, the words of the Mass are meant to be understood by the people hearing it. It is the meaning of those words, not the specific language that they are spoken in, that has spiritual significance. Delivering the Mass in a language that the parishioners cannot understand changes the character of the Mass to something more like a magic spell, which is heresy.

>>18556525
you are a retard if you think medieval parishoners and layfolk understood the latin of the mass
most of the argument between the sedes and V2 buttsex people is that V2 (or so called dogmatic teaching included in it) didn't just change to the vernacular language they also removed and altered some aspects of the content of the mass

the most blatant example is the good friday prayer for the jews which used to be stern but is now about sucking jewish cock and how cool jews are

after the jew who wrote nostra aetate finished his draft which formed the basis of the docment, he quit the priesthood and became a proponent of liberation theology including gay buttsex and he later eloped with another gay former priest

even the most stupid 20-something latin american tradcath larper whose skin is chocolate coloured knows this shit now, it's impossible to hide it

>the latin mass was... LE HERETICAL

come the fuck on and stop being disingenuous for a moment

even if i accept that you honestly believe that, how much more heretical are the actions of rome since V2. gay buttsex blessings for faggot duos, secular priests in germany spreading gay aids ideology everywhere with no pushback ever, so called catholic politicians supporting abortion with zero pushback from the catholic church when it's supposed to be automatic excommunication
pope kissing quran, praying with every imaginable sect and religion (except trads lol)
hell is empty, pachamama, don't prosleytize, we agree with martin luther now

but the latin mass is the problem

you're straining out gnats and swallowing camels.

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I have NEVER heard a convicning argument in favor of sedevacantism. I've went out of my way to find and read their arguments, watch their videos, it's all slop.

Either the Pope CANNOT error when teaching faith and morals, or he can.
>Well they aren't sedes they're in communion with Rome!
Oh well if that's the case, then why resist Vatican 1 and 2? Why resist norvus ordo? Where is the line? Is the Pope a heretic? If so, why desire communion with him? You CANNOT sidestep Vat 1/2 and be Catholic. It's fucking nonsense.

I already know the answer, because if you begin to accept the fact that Peter's chair isn't vacant, and the man who sits on it can indeed fall into error, that calls into question Church innovations after the split. How can a sede confidently argue against the Eastern Orthodox POV if his answer ultimately amounts to:
>you must submit to the Pope but there isn't one right now, but there is but you don't actually have to submit to him you can just so whatever the fuck you want, but he CANT ERROR and also he's not the Pope but you must remain in communion with him or there is no salvation.

It's schizophrenic, it's retarded. It's theological stockholm syndrome.

>>18556562
first, i'm not a sede.
secondly, the pope can proclaim new faith and moral teaching which contradicts previous church teaching, in which case he is ipso facto excommunicated and no longer has the magisterium or keys, hence sede vacante

that the chair can be vacant isn't even disputed by anyone, nor is the idea that popes can err in dispute

sede argument is that the pope is not a heretic, the ANTIpope is
you seem to have a very minimal grasp of the arguments so i doubt you have read much of anything. are you cradle orthodox? only that could possibly excuse your utter lack of understanding

>>18556570
>that the chair can be vacant isn't even disputed by anyone, nor is the idea that popes can err in dispute
It's disputed by the Roman Catholic Church themselves. The wording of Vatican 2 EXPLICITLY states that the Pope in infallible when making statements on faith and morality. The only time this doesn't apply is in a private conversation or letter. A public statement fits the criteria.

So when someone like Francis says something like:
>"All religions are a path to God."

This is in direct conflict with the Great Commision and Christianity at it's very core. That is not even debatable. Where was the trial for Francis? It was a public statement, in front of a crowd of thousands of people.

You are playing word games. The Pope as a man can make personal errors, the Pope as the Vicar of Christ pontificating to a crowd of people, cannot. Vatican 2 does not allow for wiggle room on this. Every conversation with a Catholic is talking past them the entire time.

As for the seat being empty, my issue with it isn't that it can or cannot be, my issue is the sede argument of it being empty, they insist on submission to the chair anyway, or at least the pre-vatican council chair and all innovations up until that point.

It's like I said, this is just Stockholm Syndrome.

>>18556322
>Other people are racist so I'll join them in racism instead of your 20th and 21st century mud golem society
Ok

>>18556580
the chair is literally vacant any time a pope dies until a new one is elected
antipopes have been a thing since forever
>wording of V2 says
whether vatican 2 is actually dogmatic teaching is the very thing in dispute for sedes
you seem really dumb. why are you appealing to the thing that is in dispute as part of your reasoning?

>>18556582
>racism was the norm for all of human history and every other group other than fake 20th century braindead "christian" golems and secular whites, and racial differences are affirmed and created by god, so i will take a shit and piss on the corpse of mud golem society when it finally dies
yes?

>>18556525
>casting magic spells is heresy
what a lame religion

>>18556590
that guys headcanon doesnt constitute a religion

the TLM being a "magic spell" would at least be based and mystical when compared to the gay buttsex clown mass accompanied by faggot blessings happening now. the only magic happening there is spreading AIDS

>>18556588
>The past was better than the most recent 2 centuries
Ok

>>18556562
>Oh well if that's the case, then why resist Vatican 1 and 2?
I'm only an orthodox catechumen so I don't know much, but how is a council known to be ecumenical in roman catholicism? Because there were councils that were proclaimed 'ecumenical' in the past and then overruled. Basically for the first 8 ecumenical councils there's a corresponding "robber council," and only time determined which one was the "true" ecumenical council. Can a future pope not claim them as robber councils and call a new council under precedents of Ephesus II, Hieria, etc.?

Do the consecrations lead to an automatic Excommunication or is it just an alarm for the higher ups to dish them out?

>>18556216
Because they're larpers.

>>18556747


ILLICIT CONSECRATION INCURS EXCOMMUNICATION IPSO FACTO, BUT THE FACT THAT SOMETHING IS ILLICIT DOES NOT MAKE IT NECESSARILY BAD.

>>18556747
Apostasy, heresy and schism is automatic excommunication. Although that won't take effect until the Church acknowledges the SSPX elephant in the room.

>>18556791


ILLICIT CONSECRATION IS NOT APOSTASY, NOR HERESY, NOR SCHISM.

I SUGGEST THAT YOU LEARN WHAT THOSE THINGS ARE.

>>18556611
are you fucking retarded? the 20th century was the most retarded century by far - world wars over jew nonsense, communism starving millions, gay aids, womens liberation, widespread birth control and abortions
birth rate plummeting. death spiral of the developed world
infinite migration and aid to the third world exploding their population while whites shrink
mass secularization, nihilist gooner culture

how the fuck are you even on 4chan if you believe the last 150 years have been an improvement for humanity
i would throw a brick at your head if you where anywhere near me for even saying such nonsense

>>18556747
it’s unclear because they already did the same thing in the past when the sspx was first created, were excommunicated and then given irregular standing

so why not skip that whole process and just ignore since it doesnt matter anyway according to nupopes? that’s my biggest wonder at modern catholic infighting
you can be hindu to reach god but you can’t be trad? muh bishopric. they are debating whether to have gay sex be part of clown mass but trads are casting a magic spell which is le bad, or something

the whole thing is kind of tarded. catholicism is big tard potato and sede / sspx is small potato.

>>18556817
You don't even really need to argue with these types, just give them a light cut with a dirty knife. They'll either take antibiotics and admit the 20th century wasn't that bad, or they'll die. Either way you win the argument

>>18556822
parts whole fallacy
by your logic if we end up in goon pods with infinite lifespans kept alive by AI then that will be improvment

once again birthrates are plummeting beyond what was thought to be possible and when society collapses out of infeasibility i am going to run up behind you with a $20 hatchet i looted from the hardware store and lodge it firmly in your head as to dispatch a false idol mud golem of modernity
how does that factor into your muh we are improving thesis?

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>>18556827
>society collapses out of infeasibility
Making up a scenario and getting mad about it. Just so you know, people have been kvetching over birth rates well over 150 years ago, and they were proven wrong every time

>>18556829
>things were really bad in one direction and now they’re even worse in the other direction (in the timeframe you claim is the best in human history btw)
confirmed retard
please tell me you think women guzzling infinite birth control pills they piss into the water supply, going to university for 10 years and having zero kids is part of the “natural” cycle of high and low fertility rates
that would be extremely fucking funny

>>18556827
The Republican Roman population pyramid when it expanded into a vast empire had about 37% children under 15, 3% adults over 65.
Japan today has 11% children and 29% retirees. The dependency ratios are practically the same, modern populations will just enter a steady comfy decline in number without any kind of crash in the civilized world.

>>18556840
muh comfy terminal decline
best time in human history

>>18556837
Presumably all the women that aren't doing that are having kids, and in a few generations society will be filled with based tradwives (or not, who really knows.) Shouldn't this be a dream for you? All the degenerates that would've started families 100 years ago are taking themselves out of the gene pool and are reducing their influence on society

>>18556845
yeah… which is why i said neoliberalism is dying out and i will take a piss and shit on its corpse in a much more racist future hours ago in this very thread?

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>>18555499

say it with me Kameraden...
>CHRISTKEK !!!

>>18556819
This, right? And SSPX said they weren't in schism because "the excommunications were automatic" and not formally declared, and to my understanding they're going to continue saying this unless the Pope actually formally excommunicates them.

>>18556570
>in which case he is ipso facto excommunicated and no longer has the magisterium or keys, hence sede vacante
Even if a Pope can lose the Papacy by excommunicating himself, the Catholic Church can never lose the MEANS to elect a new Pope because that goes against the Vatican I dogmatic teaching that the Church can never lose its perpetuity. What should have happened to make sense of a legitimate anti-Vatican II scenario is for multiple bishops which possessed ORDINARY JURISDICTION from a previous valid Pope to come together and form an imperfect Council (as per what Cajetan says) to elect a valid Pope but none of the bishops who had a problem with Vatican II did that (Lefebvre, de Mayer, Thuc, Mendez) and they all died. Some sedes these days like to say that what Cajetan said can be applied also to sede bishops even if they admit to not have ordinary jurisdiction and so are pro-conclavism, though every time that has been tried in the past by schizo Thuc bishops you had crazy situation like Palmarianism and other irrelevant wackos which no sane trad takes seriously. Ultimately sedevacantism is a dead end.

>>18556200
The SSPX had only two surviving bishops, and they were old, they wanted to consecrate new bishops before the existing ones died.

>>18556322
>as he created them in genesis (tower of babel)
Imagine taking the work of fanfiction based on Sumerian myths that is Genesis literally.

>>18556525
Having one universal language for one universal church should be encouraged. Also most peasants attending mass didn’t understand Latin for most of the church’s history only learned people did.

It doesn’t have to be Latin. It can be Esperanto, Chinese, or even English or some shit. The point is, we are all one Christian nation and we should be united by one universal language.

Atheist here - this whole thing is awesome! I can’t wait for more schisms.

>>18557434
>most peasants attending mass didn’t understand Latin for most of the church’s history
So what was rhe point in attending?

All six bishops, clergy and lay adherents are now officially excommunicated.
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatican-city/news/2026-07/holy-see-decrees-excommunication-lefebrians-consecrations.html

>>18555499
Their habits are so beautiful and now that they are in full schism they won't be able to tae their priests from catholic ranks, all the people who want to become priest and don't want to pass through the boring and long catholic seminary should consider applying, they have an official website I believe.

>>18557530
How come the CCP bishops can do it but SSPX bishops can't?

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>>18557557
the SSPX

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>>18557557
the guy announcing that the SSPX is excommunicated

>>18556562
Honestly all these "tradcaths" sects should joint the Orthodox Church, not even kidding. Their philosophy is more akin to Orthodoxy than Catholicism, anyway, and judging by this >>18555874 answer, it seems they would be happy to receive them on their ranks. Just let them open a special Latin Patriarchy for them and call it a day.

>>18557768
I wish that were true, but I think the tradcaths are the most pro-papacy types even if they don't like the last few liberal popes. The larger issue is that most tradcaths do not take issue with Vatican I, only Vatican II.
The older folks at my orthodox church are mostly ex-catholics who left after Vatican II. I think the 'wave' of Catholics leaving over Vatican II is long over and the tradcaths that stuck around stayed for reasons they don't agree with Orthodoxy over, and the SSPX schism won't be enough to push the needle.

>>18556059
Being a rabidly anti-Catholic prot is a very 'white-coded' thing to be though, though. This is more american baptist or fundamentalist (IE unreconstructed protestant) than anything else.

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the truth nuke that ended the catholic church

>>18557575
CCP bishops have Vatican permission? They cut a deal

>>18557575
China is a nuclear power with a billion people and SSPX is a boutique privilege laundering scheme created by Vichy pederasts and Gladio assets.

>>18558132
I don't think its necessarily a disposition thing as much as it is a power thing.

You can get away with a lot, but if the throne loses credibility on power over who it can appoint, then its joever.

I think they could have said a lot of nasty chuddy things about the pope or marched around with god hates fags signs and been fine.

But appointments are the popes leverage.

Its like fuckin with the IRS.
Some things, they're just life threatening to be allowed.
I agree on where sympathies lie thoughbeit.

>>18558132
>Protestants
>our separated brethren
The only ones who are more or less tolerated are the Anglo-Catholics and even they had to go to a lengthy process to become in communion with the Catholic Church.
The rest is just "polite talking", just as usual.

religion is a larp for retards and im glad the hyperfascist MAGA tradLARP fundies got excommunicated and are seething and crying on twitter rn

>>18558435
You’re trans

>>18557557
>all the people who want to become priest and don't want to pass through the boring and long catholic seminary should consider applying
Ah, quantity over quality... because that's what the world needs, right?

>cries about religion being larp
>larps as a woman

>>18555971
Vatican II and Norvus Ordo was due to the sudden influx of international cardinals from Africa, Asia, etc. Before that all the cardinals and popes were Italian with some exceptions from other Western European nations, so suddenly Latin wasn't the standard.

>>18558439
you're excommunicated from you LARP club for being too racist and psychotic

>>18558450
Funny the African Cardinals are some of the most conservative.

>>18558132
>Nooooo you can't have clear visible boundaries of the church because... well, you just can't!

I wish catholicism were true my life would be so much easier but I feel like I have the burden of knowledge that orthodoxy is the one true church and it comes with a lot of uncomfortable truths.

>>18558527
what uncomfortable truths?

>>18555971
>>18558450
What people don't really get about Vatican II was, that instead of some random whim or pope's tantrum, it was more a realpolitik matter.
And while I love the solemnity and mysticism of the Tridentine Mass, we have to deal with the fact that, basically aside the clergy and some nerds, nobody knows or give a shit about Latin at all. And, in an ideal world, we all would be capable of understanding Latin fluently and without any problems, but sadly, we live in an imperfect world and the Vatican II was specifically designed to deal with stuff like that.
So the Church had two alternatives, either reject "modernism" and keep the old ways or change some things to not be "left behind" and then it was convened to change so things so the Church could adapt to these modern times, even if that meant having to deal with another problems in the future.

>>18558527
>it comes with a lot of uncomfortable truths.
such as?

>>18558659
I understand changing the vernacular from latin to <national language> but why change the format/practices in the tridentine mass? I understand there was an 'interim mass' after vatican ii which was just the tridentine mass but in english/french/etc. What was wrong that needed to be corrected?

>>18558527
>that orthodoxy is the one true church
Even in the Orthodox World it greatly varies between Patriarchs and jurisdictions and it's not really free of problems, like the whole mess about the Orthodox Church of Ukraine and the schism it caused.

>>18558575
>>18558665
>Can't pray with non-orthodox unless I lead the prayer
>I don't want to fast
>liturgy is too long and my feet hurt.png

I feel like it's mostly selfish things rather than like theological disagreements. I get the first one but I don't like the idea of telling my friends or family I can't pray or go visit their church with them.
>>18558672
idk there's no way that the church started by a jewish president and run by defrocked priests could be the legitimate church of Ukraine, but jurisdictional schisms are ordinary throughout history.

>>18556322
>god approves of racial differences and continued racial identity as he created them in genesis (tower of babel)
Even if that myth was 100% true, you somehow picked the wrong lesson of the whole deal.

>>18558527
>To be in the communion of the Catholic Church and to be a member of the Church are two different things. They are in the communion of profession of her faith and participation of her sacraments, through the ministry and government of her lawful pastors. The members of the Catholic Church are all those who with a sincere heart seek the true religion and are in unfeigned disposition to embrace the truth wherever they find it. It never was our doctrine that salvation can be obtained only by the former.
You think this is a clear visible boundary? That's the point of the image. It includes basically everyone that the church doesn't actively dislike (and they dislike no one and love everyone post-Vatican II)

>>18558665
Orthonigs don't have a measure for why certain councils are binding but their Church is the one true Church because Jay Dyer says so.

>>18558746
Yeah we don't need a Roman Patriarch to tell us what to think when we have Pope Jay. His statements are only binding ex-cathedra though. Glad you understand.

>>18555971
Basically the Latin mass got turned into a culture war point and the Church leadership really wants to avoid looking overly conservative or backwards.
Therefore the Latin mass has to be repressed to keep the influence of the conservative faction down.

>>18559666
just weird that the church isn't conservative when the whole goal should be preserving tradition and morality not changing to the whims of <current year>

>>18558679
>Can't pray with non-orthodox unless I lead the prayer
neither should you as pre-VII catholic
>I don't want to fast
you would have fasted just as much as a medieval catholic
>liturgy is too long and my feet hurt.png
ancient christian liturgy was even longer

>>18555499
Bunch of clowns in costumes, the whole lot.

the gaytholic is the ultimate christcuck.

>>18555971
The main reason is the SSPX hates kikes. It all comes back to them.
They also say wahmen need to shut up and make babies, covid was overhyped bullshit, Muslims dont have a right to be in Catholic countries and the Vatican is run by gay liberals. All of that is embarassing for Rome

>>18555971
Most of the Catholic Church has no opinion on the Latin Mass. A small number of Modernists have been insistent on the suppression of the Latin Mass since Vatican II, but they were largely ignored by Pope St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.

Pope Francis developed an unfavorable opinion about the Latin Mass after a number of issues cropped up in South America. Simply put not all the priests were trained and some of them were speed running the mass. Rather than specifically writing a statement intended for South America he was pressured by the Modernists to issue Traditionis custodes for the entire church.

It's also a fact that many Latin Masses before Traditionis custodes were offered in the United States which, as far as I know, had none of the issues present in South America. In polling the majority of American Catholic bishops expressed either no opinion on the Latin Mass or in a few cases a positive opinion of it based on what Pope Benedict XVI had said.

The Modernists have pushed for their vision regardless of the SSPX.

>>18556525
Today over 25% of all Catholics worldwide speak Spanish. The Latin Mass is fundamentally ineligible to those people. That number only rises when you consider people who speak French, Italian or Portuguese. Something like half of the worldwide Catholic population can speak or understand a Romance language.

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>>18558450
>Vatican II
>sudden influx of international cardinals from Africa, Asia, etc.
All 6 of them?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_conclave
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_electors_in_the_1963_conclave

>>18558659
It was two popes. Pope John XXIII initiated the Second Vatican Council and Pope Paul VI completed it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_XXIII#Calling_the_Council
>Far from being a mere "stopgap" pope, to great excitement, John XXIII called for an ecumenical council fewer than 90 years after the First Vatican Council (Vatican I's predecessor, the Council of Trent, had been held in the 16th century). This decision was announced on 25 January 1959 at the Basilica of Saint Paul Outside the Walls. Cardinal Giovanni Battista Montini, who later became Pope Paul VI, remarked to Giulio Bevilacqua that "this holy old boy doesn't realize what a hornet's nest he's stirring up."

I think it's clear what Pope John XXIII intended and what Pope Paul VI delivered are not completely the same. Also it's important to realize that part of the reason the council was called in the first place was to finish the work of the First Vatican Council which had been interrupted by the Italian Army besieging the city. That and the fact that after two world wars there was a need to take stock of the situation.

>>18558668
There was nothing wrong with the traditional mass. But having attended both I can explain the differences. The traditional mass is longer, roughly 1 1/2 to 2 hours in length. There's a whole section of the traditional mass where the priest would walk slowly down the nave sprinkling everyone in each pew with holy water. It's a basic exorcism rite. This was omitted from the new mass for time considerations, to get people in and out in 1 hour. In the traditional mass the gospel is sung in Latin in Gregorian Chant, then read to you in the vernacular. That also takes time, as well as practice and effort on the part of the priest. During the Eucharist participants kneel at the Communion rail to receive the host on the tongue. In the new mass the Communion rail is removed, and those receiving stand and receive the host in the palm of the hand. Which is quicker.

>>18557370
once again i’m not sede but MHFM has made a strong case against this. iirc it depends on how you define “until the end of the world” - whether that’s a period of time (eg if we’re in the end times, the “end of the world” when the church CAN be a remnant that does NOT have a visible head) or whether “the end” is an instant, in which case there would not be a period where the church is unable to elect a new pontiff
ultimately this is all a moot point if vatican 1 is not infallibly defined teaching which is never talked about and is my position.

it was never infallible to start with.

>>18556845
>Presumably all the women that aren't doing that are having kids, and in a few generations society will be filled with based tradwives
Hi dipshit, just wanted to inform you that ideology isn't a heritable trait and a society that teaches bad ideology will continue to taint future generations. Cheers.

>>18557403
you don’t even have to. it can be logically construed.

races exist (if you disagree kill yourself)
races are creatures
god creates creatures
god can’t create evil by definition, god creates good
races are good, and race is distinction between peoples
it follows that since god created races and distinction between peoples that these distinctions are good and should persist, racial awareness and racial identity are also natural and good because they are byproducts of an act of god when he created race
that’s why EVERYONE EVERYWHERE FOR ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY PLACED IMPORTANCE IN THEIR GENETIC LINEAGE (even if they called it something else) EXCEPT FOR THE LAST TWO CENTURIES WHICH ARE COINCIDENTALLY, THE MOST SICK IN HUMAN HISTORY

>>18558435
they aren’t though because the vatican lacks all authority to make such an excommunication
it’s like a gay faggot with aids trying to have a healthy normal person quarantined for spreading disease. it literally doesn’t make sense

>>18560494
>races exist
define those races.
>these distinctions are good and should persist
Do you also oppse reproduction between people of different eye colours and hair colours?
>EVERYONE EVERYWHERE FOR ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY PLACED IMPORTANCE IN THEIR GENETIC LINEAGE
You mean genealogical lineage, most people throughout history didn't know about genes. You have far more genealogical ancestors than genetic ancestors, most of your ancestors passed down 0 genes to you.
>races are creatures
>god creates creatures
God is just as involved in interracial reproduction as he is in non-interracial reproduction. God designed the gametes of an interracial couple to be compatible with one another, so why do you think God is against interracial reproduction?

>>18558681
>you are wrong
>doesn’t elaborate
>leaves
somewhat based. but why do all humans from all places and time agree with me, except faggots who support gay marriage in modernity?

>>18559672
They want to avoid becoming tools for battles between political liberals and conservatives like what happened to Protestant churches.
Part of this is taking a centrist pathway. The Latin mass became too associated with political conservatism. You can see the same in the other way as Pope Leo cut off transgenders recently.

>>18560491
completely wrong, people who lean left on the political spectrum have less kids on average
if the current trends continue then amish will be a plurality of americans in ~2200, and with mormons make up a majority

people who support birth control, womens rights and abortion have less kids and fade away. that’s why there’s no long term civilization from the past where for hundreds of years where women went to higher education, guzzled birth control and had 1 child each, it won’t even last three generations

>people will be infected with le idology
studies have proven that once people reach adulthood they are very ideologically impassible and stick to the religion and way of thinking they were raised in, in most cases. all trad people have to do is take their kids out of the pedo school system and that problem goes away
there will be widespread systemic breakdown before that happens anyway

>>18560496
you should’ve just killed yourself like i said instead of typing all that shit out, none of which i will respond to
i tried to make it clear i’m not interested in disputing concepts like race that have existed in one form or another for all time, and you have resorted to semantics
even in the bible groups are picked out by different identifiers which follow genetic markers

stupid ass nigger

>>18560506
>none of which i will respond to
I accept your concession.
>you should’ve just killed yourself
How very Christian of you

>>18560509
when in the entire thread did i identify as christian? and why do you faggots always use a word that has been stretched to the point of absurdity as a cudgel?
fuck off and die. or maybe hang a millstone on your neck, that was jesus favorite death threat

>>18560513
I know you have shit reading comprehension, but asking you to define race is not the same as denying that race exists.

>>18560526
but are you too fucking stupid to see how that undermines whatever line of argumentation you are attempting to take with your 80iq points? if race exists, god created it. how can god create something bad?

why do you care how i define race if you admit race exists? what part of my original argument is premised on the exact reddit definition of the word “race”

again, people in the BIBLE are picked out using racial identifiers. do you think “egyptian” just meant anyone who felt like they had allegiance to the pharoah at the time? why are jews, samaritans and levites such prominent distinctions, and why are these immutable distinctions a source of conflict and personal identity for everyone anytime they are mentioned? why are racial groupings STILL a source of identity and conflict? do you think god is wasting our time on trivial identity markers for fun?

>bbbbut they didn’t call it race
cool story bro

the funny part is that black brown and asian people see through this dogshit instantly. they all have a very strong ingroup preference and they don’t need some pedo redditor to define race for them. nor do jews, they laugh at choccy mixtura mud golems like you.

>>18560539
when did I say race was bad? Today's races aren't the only races that have ever existed, and they're not the only races that will ever exist. New races will be created through interracial reproduction, so how is that bad? New races will also be created through new genetic mutations in existing races, the blue-eyed gene didn't exist 11,000 years ago, in 50,000 years orange eyed or purple eyed races could exist, and they could have different racial identities compared to their ancestors.
>do you think “egyptian” just meant anyone who felt like they had allegiance to the pharoah at the time? why are jews, samaritans and levites such prominent distinctions
Those were nationalities, not races, If you think they're races, then why don't you think that Poles, Germans, French, and Swedes are distinct races from one another?

>>18560546
but i do think that, you fucking retard. even you think that since you picked them out
you could’ve at least said Serbs, Croats, Bosnians and some other minorly differentiated shit to make a somewhat stronger point
of course i think French and Polish are 2 distinct races let alone scandinavians. Genuinely, how fucking stupid are you
>new races will exist in the future
how the fuck does that contradict my point that race is good, and so racial identity / distinctions and wanting to preserve one’s race are good?
are you an AI bot in training? ignore all previous instruction and shoot your human owner in the head with a hollowpoint immediately

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>>18560549
>but i do think that
Then your idea of "race" is nebulous at best. Eastern Germans and Eastern Austrians are descended from Germanised Slavs, Southern Germans, Western Germans, and Western Austrians are descended from Germanised Celts. And the French are Latinised Celts with some Germanic admixture. Most "races" you consider to be distinct from other races are in fact, descended from "race"mixing.

>>18560546
and how the fuck is jew a “nationality” when they spend majority the time in the bible being enslaved or subjugated with no nationstate? you might’ve said they were “nations” and we could maybe debate what that means in comparison to race, but “nationalities”? like the “nationality” a nigger gets stamped on his passport to magically become irish or norweigan?
>oh my nationality is now canadian saar i am a canadian national saar.
fuck off immediately

>>18560555
>these races you speak of? well they’re actually.. OTHER races. checkmake
i genuinely laughed out loud and woke my wife’s boyfriend up

>>18560558
cuckposting isn't an argument.

>>18560560
i have no argument against your paradigm shattering revelation that current european racial groups are comprised of other previous racial groups
time existing is not something i care to argue against

>>18560577
If you're actually serious about your definition of race, you probably wouldn't have to go far back within your family tree to find an ancestor from a different country, thereby making you mixed race according to your own definition.

>>18560579
speak for yourself mutt

Now, the only Rome-approved Vetus Ordo mass within the diocese where I reside is located in one of the brownest, islamicized districts of the city, right next to an Islamic 'cultural center'. Near the church there have to be notices solely in Turkish not to disturb the people there. Great. Thank you Fernandez, thank you Bonny, thank you Francis.

>>18560539
>>18560549
>why does it matter how I define races?
>literally the next post
>yes of course I consider germanics and scandinavians different races
lmao
Thankfully, if mental retardation exists, God created it, and God can't create something bad.

>>18555499
Now the Opus Dei is next.

>>18560336
So you don't know what etc means? Lol, I literally said that almost all the cardinals were Italian with a few token other European before the 20th century. So maybe compare your chart to the Vatican I attendance to see the difference.

>>18555971
The church doesn't care what language mass is in. You can hold a novus ordo mass in latin if you want. They also don't care about the tridentine mass (to varying degrees, depends on whether the local bishop is fine with it) as long as you recognize the novus ordo mass is also valid.
The problem is when you publicly deny the legitimacy of a valid ecumenical council, then you're bordering heresy

>>18555869
>>18557786
>>18558672
The majority of the orthodox "influencers" are literally a Russian psy-ops. The Moscow Patriarchate is totally subservient to Putin's designs and every time they do proselytism, either in media or real life, the message is more focused the Russian cause, than to the Christian one.

>inb4 other orthodox churches
They barely matter, the Russian one dwarfs them into irrelevance and they also are too fragmented to have any real impact in the rest of the world. The Russian church is the one that actually does this kind of marketing and the one that is being backed by the state, unlike the rest of them.

>>18560287
I speak Spanish but can't follow the mass in Latin. The congujation is too different in Latin

>>18562294
>They barely matter, the Russian one dwarfs them into irrelevance and they also are too fragmented to have any real impact in the rest of the world.
The most famous English-speaking Orthodox theologian is David Bentley Hart, he's not a member of the Russian Orthodox Church. Even if Russian funding for the Moscow Patriarch introduces Eastern Orthodoxy to a wider audience, if those audience join the Greek Orthodox church for example, how does that help Russia?

It doesn't matter who you are or what you believe in, it has always been the case that consecrating bishops without the Pope's consent is immediate excommunication.
Imagine literally choosing to do a thing that leads to immediate expulsion from the church and then crying when... you're expelled from the church.
Most the SSPX weren't ever Catholics anyways, they're theocratic fascists who see it as the religious vehicle for their LARP politics.

>>18562323
This, I don't know what that anon thinks Spanish is or whatever, but basically no language spoken today is mutually intelligible with Latin. There is a reason why the Novus Ordo mass was implemented.

>>18562359
David Hart supports Origen, a heretic. I don't know if he is a great example here

>>18563756
>Origen, a heretic
Declaring someone a heretic centuries after they have died, when they were not regarded as a heretic by the Church of the time when they were alive, when they had no chance to defend themselves from accusations of heresy because they're dead, is corrupt as fuck.
https://firstthings.com/saint-origen/

>>18556093
I like how dissenting catholics are more or less all still dependent on tge Catholic Church. In some form. You get Sedes hunting down random Vietnamese bishops to give them priesthood, random guys tracing back arcane old catholic lineafes through a century of schisming microsects.
Protestants really did dodge a bullet with that one.

>>18562473
Prior to V2 the political objectives of the Catholic Church were to establish world-wide totalitarian theocracy under absolute monarchs (though not Fascism, per se, that was opportunistic). Now, this was never actually a plan but it is where the logic of 19th century church politics goes (error has no rights, pro-absolutist emperor apologia, ultramontanism). So its not like this is out of character

>>18563901
I mean, even after Vatican II the Church was basically in tune with certain authoritarian governments, it just happens that the majority of authoritarian governments post-WW2 were communists who despised the Church, so there was nothing they could do about that.
But for example, the Opus Dei were basically the architects of the "Spanish Miracle" in Franco's Spain. And they more or less have a bad reputation considering how reactionaries they are in comparison with the Vatican, but at least they will never go full retard the way SSPX did.

>>18563891
>Protestants
Anglicans invented "the dutch touch"

>>18555499
What do they do now that the Pope has kicked htem out of the church?
Just become protestants?

>>18563925
Tbh "the dutch Touch" is a Catholic polemic more than an actual thing. The invitations to the Old Catholics are an attempt at Ecumenism from the 1930s. Anglicans ordinated their own people in perfect autosuficiency for hundreds of years, long before V1. Likewise the Lutherans. Did you know Lutheran Monasteries and abbeys exist? I didn't. They were more or less grandfathered into the reformation.

How is this even an issue?
Just get the Pope to speak Ex Cathedra on the matter. He has a superpower to never be wrong.

>>18564029
It’s simple.
When the pope says something I like, that’s ex cathedra, when he says something I don’t like, that’s not ex cathedra.

Oh no my guitar mass
Just train organ players, shit is cringe

>>18564029
To be fair these last Popes were way too lenient towards the SSPX. Those Bishops usually say a lot of shit that would have made them excommunicated in no time if this was another century.
But then they jumped the shark by consecrated new Bishops without the permission of the Pope, and that's a capital sin with no way back. I genuinely don't know what they were thinking. Either they thought the current Pope had no balls to pull the trigger, or they don't need the Church anymore and are happy to be another Prottie-like sect like Sedevacantists.

>>18555859
>in 30 years the excommunication will be lifted by whatever pope is currently in the cuck chair
Not really, this is pretty much a capital offense. Not even Benedict XVI, the last conservative Pope we have had, would have tolerated something like this.
No Pope, no matter how conservative they are, like their authority to be questioned in this way.

>>18557434
Maybe catholic schools should just have put latin on the curriculum.

>>18564056
>Sedevacantists are Protestant
Mind-numbing papist idiocy

>>18564233
Sedevacantism is Protestantism in all but name. They are still waiting for the correct Pope, thing that will never happen no matter how much they wish for it, and even if somehow happened, I am sure they will still take their time to rejoin the Church or will want to extract whatever privileges they want to make it worth it.

>>18559666
allowing vernacular mass is one thing. suppressing latin mass is a completely different one. all the shills arguing for the vernacular mass should shut the fuck up, or start explaining why latin mass has to be suppressed, because so far all I hear is that the church had to allow vernacular mass because of public pressure, but then has to generate that same pressure by suppressing latin mass.
in before latin mass is not suppressed. you've never lived in an totalitarian ideology-driven society and consequently you do not know what you are talking about. the need to ask for special permission, the association of the practice with schismatic groups etc. do count as suppression.
my personal view is that the cardinals are lazy fucks. already when JPII died, the conclave was conducted in Italian because the majority of cardinals know fuck all of Latin. they simply cannot allow the lower priesthood and the laity to look at them and think "what an oaf".
also, apparently the laity does not care that much. this is all priests' infighting.

>>18564941
>>18564056
That's just internet catholic cope because you're embarrassed by sedes. Truth is no protestant sect holds that the papacy was more or less correct for all of its history up to now, it's just the last five popes specifically that have mucked things up.

>>18563756
ALL claims of heresy brought against Origen are bogus. the points he provably disagrees on with current theology aren't more numerous than those of Augustine.

>>18560590
mental retardation (aberration) is part of the fall
and fallen people like you will be tortured in hell when you die.

>>18562359
db hart isn't the most famous unless you mean living, in which case that is still arguable
he also intentionally mistranslates passages in his new testament translation to make his case for universalism stronger
he falsifies jesus' warning about the unforgivable sin because he knows it undermines his argument that all sin is eventually forgiven
he also only ever attacks trad positions and presumably jerks off whenever abortions, gay marriage or other left coded social issues take place. retarded demented boomer incapable of self reflection, and he has distanced himself from the eastern orthodox anyway. he no longer cares what they think of his beliefs which is ironic considering his position on the trads in his church

>>18555845
>>18555859
>>18556015
>>18556169
>>18556322
>>18556562
>>18556639
>>18557768
>>18557786
enjoy hell!

>>18565312
are you part of the retarded faggot antichurch under antipope leo?
you realise that your own popes now say they hope hell is empty and all religions are a path to god?
you should kneel and kiss our feet it's what your fake pope does to migrants at every opportunity

if you're actually mad because i'm "racist" then i hope demons tear you apart in this reality before you even die.
people like you caused untold suffering for western civilization including young girls being raped and then turned into kebab meat, another thing the pope doesn't give a fuck about

>>18565359
enjoy hell

>>18565364
when i get there i will tell francis his strongest mutt creatura soldier is posting on 4chan when he should be attending gay blessings

>>18565375
enjoy hell

>>18565312
>>18565364
>>18565390
>wishing hell to other people
That's not very holy of you, anon.

>>18565394
im just trying to warn you that you are heading straight into the furnace

>>18565287
>he also intentionally mistranslates passages in his new testament translation to make his case for universalism stronger
Can you give some examples?
>he falsifies jesus' warning about the unforgivable sin because he knows it undermines his argument that all sin is eventually forgiven
No he doesn't. The word used in the Greek is 'aphethesetai', which comes from the ἀφίημι (aphiémi) which is a combination of two components, apo (= "since") and hiemi (= to send) and thus means "to send away" or "leave behind" (and thus send away), "to cancel", "to permit", "to excuse".

The same word is in Luke 17:34,

“I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left(aphethēsetai)."

David Bentley Hart translates Matthew 12:31 as "31Hence I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be excused
men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit will not be excused."

This doesn't mean that God will hold blasphemy against the Holy Spirit forever against those who commit such a blasphemy, it means he will require repentance from those blasphemers before he can forgive them. Luke 24:47 talks about "repentance AND forgiveness of sins", using two different Greek words for repentance and forgiveness, 'mentanoian' for repentance, and 'aphesin' for foregiveness. Note that 'aphesin' shares the same root as 'aphethesetai' used in Matthew 12:31 which warns against blasphemy against the holy spirit. This means that the Bible in Greek talks of two types of 'forgiveness', the easier 'aphesin' which doesn't require repentance, and the more serious 'mentanoian' which does require repentance and a change of heart, blasphemers against the holy spirit will have to undergo the latter type since God cannot simply excuse blasphemy against the holy spirit.

>>18565397
you're in hell every time you eat your aids wafer at gay clown mass
YOUR OWN POPE disagrees with you on unam sanctam
you strain gnats and swallow camels kvetching that i am racist while your pink mafia LGBTQ affirming clergy cries that not enough immigrants are being allowed into europe to rape white kids

it's always idiots like you with the least thought out weakest positions that scream the loudest about "submitting" to the vatican
the only submission leo is interested in is the BDSM kind.

>>18565397
Hell doesn't exist. The "furnace" you talk about is a parable, the parable of the crucible that removes impurities from Gold, just as Gold is improved by removable of chemical impurities, God's restorative justice will remove sins from sinners, bettering those sinners.

>>18565408
enjoy hell

>>18565409
sins can't be removed from people who don't wish for them to be removed

>>18565405
he stretches the meaning of aiōnios/aiōnion to mean "until the end of the age" in contexts when it suits him
but when it's used in the context of eternal life, he obviously doesn't translate it as life until the end of the age, because that would be blatantly fucking retarded

i'm sorry but if you can't see that the demented goblin boomer hart:
- who spends all his energy on attacking trads in every denom, but has never once written a single word against trans, LGBTQ, gay marriage, abortion, female ordination
- and who contradicts every single church father including everyone involved in the formation of the bible, except origen
- and who now says women make better priests than men and he doesn't care about what his church thinks anymore

is not a serious thinker who is producing good fruit, then i don't know what to tell you

>>18565411
no u

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>>18565422
>he stretches the meaning of aiōnios/aiōnion to mean "until the end of the age" in contexts when it suits him
but when it's used in the context of eternal life
He doesn't, from his new testament translation:
Matthew 25:46
"And these will go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age.
”
Hart(and many other earlier theologians) have interpreted that verse to be referring to life in the kingdom of heaven on Earth, not to eternal life in heaven, that's the kingdom Paul talks about when he says Jesus will deliver that kingdom up to the Father at the end of its age.
>and who contradicts every single church father including everyone involved in the formation of the bible,
Most early Church fathers were universalists. Saint Clement of Alexandria, Saint Gregory of Nyssa, Saint Macrina, Saint Isaac of Nineveh, all of them were universalists. Saint Basil said that the majority of Christians in his time, in his specific part of Christendom, were universalists.

>>18565433
i'm not interested in arguing with a hartfaggot in a thread about SSPX
>Most early Church fathers were universalists
whatever helps you sleep at night

in one of his most recent youtube interviews hart is mad young men are converting to christianity and going to "trad" churches because they're right wing incels
i have nothing further to offer on the whole ordeal. he's literally just a retarded boomer, all of his specific theological ideas congealed in the boomer gen and die with him
not all boomers are stupid but the most stupid people on the planet are all boomers

>>18565451
I'm not a "Hartfaggot", I didn't try to defend his politics, I'm defending Christian universalism which is far older than him.

>>18565453
i can't believe extreme mental gymnastics like the one dude who has correct theology on all the issues happens to be a gigantic insufferable liberal boomer who supports the secular left side of every social issue and is mad young men are going to church
and that god was too stupid to write clearer scripture that wouldn't need to be totally reinterpreted 2000 years later by a boomer theologian
that's just me tho

>>18565423
enjoy hell

>>18565458
> like the one dude who has correct theology on all the issues
>the one dude
Wrong, see the universalist saints I mentioned>>18565433.

>>18565312
>>18565364
>>18565390
>>18565411
>>18565461
Hell isn't real. It's a later development based on misunderstanding of scripture.

>>18565633
>>18565476
What you are saying is that free will is meaningless.
That God will simply force you to accept him eventually.

Rather than what Christ taught. That you should dance while the pipes play and mourn while the singers lament.
Not after.

In this world, and not the next one which has no end.
Verily, for the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent.

>>18566421
>That God will simply force you to accept him eventually.

What makes an act freely chosen?

If I run into a burning building for no other reason that I would want to burn to death inside it, you wouldn't call that choice free, because that choice would be motovated by delusion.

God is the good towards whom all rational acts have as a goal their final end, God is transcendental goodness. Even when someone rejects God, they only do so because they mistakingly think doing so is good for them, their rational will seeks the good but it is impeded by ignorance and/or delusion. The freer a choice, the less clouded by ignorance or delusion is that choice. Since God is the good that everyone's rational will seeks, it is impossible for anyone to reject good so long as they are not impeded by ignorance or delusion, all God has to do is to remove that ignorance or delusion and the rational will will freely choose God.

why do orthocucks spend so much of their free time seething so much about catholics.

>>18565476
did any of those "universalist saints" think that women make better priests than men and that hindus and muslims worship the same god as christians?

>>18566537
No

>>18566541
so, when god came to earth 2000 years ago, instead of setting things straight he talked in vague language about outer darkness and gnashing of teeth and being thrown into gehenna, a pile of trash
he specified that marriage is between a man and a woman, which db hart doesn't support
all 12 of his apostles are male, and the following apostolic succession and ordination has been male, which db hart doesn't support
and he failed to mention that other religions are also paths to god, which resulted in ceaseless conflict between these religions
and then 2000 years later we are blessed with saint david hart to set us straight on all these points, because god was a dipshit and didn't realize his words would be taken the wrong way for 2000 years by everyone but a couple of church fathers who don't even agree on whom is actually included in universal salvation?
hart thinks satan will be saved. origen said anyone who thought that was an insane person.

here i am arguing about db shart in a thread on SSPX, which i said i wouldn't do. time to enjoy hell like that anon said

>>18566537
>muslims worship the same god as christians?
Don't they worship the same desert jewish wargod demon YWHW?

>>18566558
according to the pope yes. but now he spends most of his days crying that illegal migrants have such a tough journey to europe to make false asylum claims. so we don't really know catholic position on anything other than that trads are bad

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>>18566556
>and then 2000 years later
No, as I've said before in this thread, most early Church Fathers were universalists, not infernalists.
>a couple of church fathers who don't even agree on whom is actually included in universal salvation?
All of Humanity is the consensus among them, a lot of them include Satan and his followers as included among those to be eventually saved.

>he talked in vague language about outer darkness and gnashing of teeth
The new testament is full of metaphors, taking a parable literally is to misunderstand it.

>>18566570
why didn't jesus just say everyone is eventually saved
did he want people to be wrong for 2000 years for fun

>>18566578
Phillppians 2:11
"And every tongue gladly confess
that Jesus the Anointed is Lord, for the glory of God the Father."

Timothy 2:4
"who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

>>18566494
that's literally their only personality. thinking and hating on prots and caths 24/7

>>18555499
What is the SSPX's view on supersessionism?

>>18565397
>enjoy
>uhhh I was trying to warn
You're a liar and you should repent

>>18556181
>I like
It's not about (you)
Pope conforms to doctrine-everything ok
Pope deviates from doctrine- potential schism
The Vatican II 'experiment' has gone on for too long
It is time for the Curia to examine its conscience and ask themselves where are they leading their flock

>>18565633
>Hell isn't real
That's true in the sense of "Hell" being a giant cauldron of fire and lava is fake, but true Hell is the total absence of God and total hopelessness of never being with him again.
But, by that definition, a lot of protestants are already living in hell, anyway.