What is the skeptic / atheist explanation for Zeitoun Marian apparitions? I invite the atheists and protestants of /his/ to come here to debate this.Hundreds of thousands of people saw Virgin Mary appear, including Atheists, Muslims and Christians. The electricity was cut off from the area and all cars were banned from the area. The Egyptian Muslim government tried to rigorously investigate the apparitions, but all attempts to find a natural cause failed. To this day, atheists and Muslims haven't been able to find a natural cause. Some have resorted to Earthquake lights (not scientifically proven). Moreover, there exist dozens of photographs from the event. While some were tempered with, most weren't, and all clearly show a female figure.>inb4 "why didn't God give clearer signs" or "demons did it"Please, try to bring up good arguments. I do not want to make this into a piss contest, but I want to see what you think about this.What caused the Zeitoun apparitions? Can we arrive at a naturalistic explanation for them?
I can't reliably identify the exact origin of this specific photograph from the image alone. It has been reproduced in books, magazines, and online collections of alleged Marian apparitions, sometimes with different captions. Similar versions have been attributed to different locations over the years, making identification from the image itself unreliable.
>>18566343You know the Bible says that it's a bad thing to be full of debate, right?
>>18566356This specific image, as far as I know, is adited from a daytime photo. I just used it as pic for OP, because it's the most famous one. I recommend you check out actual 1968 newspaper photos from Al-Ahram (the biggest newspaper in ME).
>>18566361Right now I just want to debate about this.
Personally, I don't think it was anything special, because Virgin Mary and her exaltation is a much later tradition. I don't believe she was a virgin, and she was not a very important figure in early Christianity. Her importance only developed much later in Christian history. In other words, I'd already debunk it being Mary based on her exaltation not being part of original Christianity.
>>18566384I mean, sure. But how do you explain the appearance of a woman and the lights...
>>18566343>there exist dozens of photographsLet's start here. I would like to see these photographs. Searching the internet I can only find the one you posted in the OP and I'm tempted to just say it is fake.
>>18566410Search up the 1968 newspaper photos from Al-Ahram. Those are the most trustworthy ones. And yes, the one I posted is more than likely a fake, as I admitted earlier. I simply used it for OP as it's the most famous one.
>>18566343Just peasants being superstitious and grifters forging photos to profit from superstition
>>18566412Nothing burger
>>18566398First off, it's not even very clear that there was a woman. Many eyewitnesses claim this, but many others speak against this. The one secular English-language eyewitness mentions that she saw nothing but blurry lights.>“When I looked to where the crowds were pointing I, too, thought I saw a light through the branches of the trees, and as I tried to picture a nunlike figure in those branches, I could trace the outline of a figure. But as I thought to myself that this is just an illusion of the light reflecting through the branches, the image of the nun would leave my field of vision. Still, there was no doubt in my mind that there was a light and that if I looked for the image it would come into focus. I immediately “explained” this perceptual experience as an illusion caused by reflected light. But the source of the light was a mystery, for the streetlights had been disconnected all around the church for several days. And within another week all the trees around the church would be cut. The woman beside me was convinced it was the Virgin, which reveals once again that what the eye sees is the consequence not so much of psychological processes but of intellectual, emotional and ideational concerns.”In other words, it's most likely a case of pareidolia, social contagion, mass hysteria, and memory contamination. As for why Muslims would believe seeing Virgin Mary and choose to not convert:>Nelson also describes how a Muslim woman she spoke to, who was a poet and wife of a university mathematics professor, who had seen the apparition at Zeitoun, mentioned that Muslims also believe in the Virgin Mary: “We Muslims believe that the Virgin is in fact a Muslim.” http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/the-marian-apparitions-at-zeitoun-better-evidence-for-christianity-than-the-resurrection/https://skeptoid.com/episodes/766
>>18566420There's still very clearly a rather human-shaped light that can't be explained as reflection. It's on top of a dome, there is nothing it can reflect on.>>18566415It was in a city, and the government tried to investigate it.>>18566438It's pretty clear from the quote, she initially did see a human figure, but chose to not see it.>“We Muslims believe that the Virgin is in fact a Muslim.” So they just chose to be stupid, even though they don't believe in Mary being a Virgin?
>>18566447>So they just chose to be stupidIt is stupid but that's what religious people do. The come up with ad-hoc explanations to support the conclusion (Their religion being true)
>>18566447Virgin Mary is revered and exalted in Islam. She's the mother of Prophet Jesus. They do believe in virgin birth being a miracle granted by Allah. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_in_IslamMoreover, you just proved my point:>she initially did see a human figure, but chose to not see itI left the earlier part of her description out, which makes more sense of the latter:>“Talking with a woman in her late fifties, the daughter of a very famous Cairo surgeon, I learned that her own daughter, an honor student in chemistry at Cairo University, who had seen the Virgin on April 12, insisted that her mother accompany her again to Zeitoun. She described her experience: “She was like a statue, hands folded in front, head veiled and bent. She rose up in the sky completely and was illuminated. I first saw the halo, then I saw the Virgin completely. She came down between the palm tree and the dome on this side street here.” As we were talking, the crowd began pointing to the palm tree and exclaiming “It’s the Virgin-she looks like a nun, and she is swaying to and fro as if she were blessing us!”It's literally a case of pareidolia. The longer the secular eyewitness stared at the light thinking it was a nun, she was able to make out the figure of a nun. Yet the moment she thought it might be an illusion, the figure vanished. This is nothing miraculous. If you stare at darkness, expecting there to be something, you will eventually see either a figure or some movement. It's literally the power of suggestion at work.
>>18566343>how do athiests explain this>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidoliatheres your answer
>>18566420I still think I see a human figure with a halo here.
>>18566476>A much more useful insight into Our Lady of Zeitoun comes from the cultural context in which it happened. Crucially, this entire event took place shortly after Egypt's defeat in the Six Day War, which resulted in great public despair and anxiety, and just a few days after President Nasser's March 30 Manifesto which outlined his plan for Egypt to recover. As author Michael Carroll wrote in his 1986 book The Cult of the Virgin Mary:>"It seems reasonable to suggest that the apparition at Zeitoun was — like the government actions just mentioned — a response to the anxiety generated by the 1967 defeat. The people of Egypt, in other words, were susceptible to any suggestion which indicated that God was on their side, as such a suggestion would reduce their anxiety over the future. The idea that God might send the Virgin Mary as a sign that he was indeed on their side is consistent with the Koran's view of Mary, and so the people of Egypt would have been very receptive to the possibility that an apparition of the virgin Mary was in progress at Zeitoun."https://skeptoid.com/episodes/766
>>18566420Look closely. There's a figure in the middle, which is a bit greyer than the surrounding light.
>>18566476>>1856647890% of those interviewed by John P. Carroll identified the figure as a human.The secular eyewitness in those links doesn't even deny that you can make out a human shape from the light.
>>18566343>What is the skeptic / atheist explanation for Zeitoun Marian apparitions?Unverifiable testimonies, too few pictures for how visible it would have been, most pictures are literally just out of focus stars, and the pictures that actually show something that remotely look humans are impossible to trace back to their authors, they disagree on key features and wouldn't exactly have been impossible to fake with the means of the time.
>>18566505He only interviewed Coptic Christians. And again, mass hysteria, pareidolia and memory contamination. If one thousand people next to you yell about a nun, you'll eventually start making out the figure of a nun. That was even the point of the secularist.
I think religious people should just abandon these "religion 100% proven true, protographic evidence inside" claims. Even if the Christian god was real, he would not ruin the mystery and turn faith into something worthless by just giving you empiric proof. Unless you are literally some sort of prophet/mystic, but even then that would be a deeply personal revelation and not something you can spread around with definite proof. Maybe this apparition was real, but there will always be enough room to deny it or chalk it up to something else.Just how I think a god concerned with blind belief and absolute trust from his followers would behave.
>>18566343Virgin Maryam (PBUH) is held highly in Islam, why would a pious Muslim try to discredit what proves the true faith?The egyptian government is atheistic and degenerate
>>18566551The obstacle is that religious people decided that being a good person isn't good enough by itself to get you out of eternal torment after death. You have to believe the religion or else. And God demanding belief on pain of hell without providing evidence worthy of belief is insane, so there must be good evidence.
>>18566530What about this image then? >>18566420You can clearly see a human shape there.
just another reminder the christcucks that post here are credulous brown thirdies
>>18566554Exactly.>>18566343>>18566447The government of Egypt had just lost a war against Israel, and their attempts at trying to calm people down through secular means had failed completely. The apparitions united both Muslims and Copts and made Egyptians believe God was on their side. I'm not saying it was a conspiracy insinuated by the Egyptian government, but they really didn't have much of a reason to shut it down either.
>The 6000 years old semitic desert god of war who created the heavens and the earth and will send you to hell forever if you do anything wrong... is real because random grainy picture
>>18567273And it's not even a picture of the god himself but of his second mother-wife who is really a goddess with her own separate cult
>>18566447>>18566487>>18566502>>18567264I don't see shit in that image. It looks like a giant spatula to me.
>>18566343>While some were tempered withYou've already admitted it was a lie.
>>18566343The entire point of Christianity, other Abrahamic religions etc is that what your views are not subject to falsificationSo to “debate” anything is completely inconsequential and irrelevant
>>18567316Look at the lower part of the glowing figure. You can see gradient there, which is not there at the top. You can clearly see a greyish figure.>>18567318Some of the photos were. This one wasn't: >>18566420
>>18566343Why does God feel the need to cocktease third world retards? What was gained? Why couldn't Mary descend onto Times Square?
>>18567264That's someone who jizzed on the film.
>>18567442Very funny. What is the gradient supposed to be?>>18567462There is a real photo of the event here: >>18566420
>>18567377There is no figure, it’s an illustration superimposed or composited onto a photo
>>18567464What's your source on this? Does the newspaper say this, or did someone else say this?
>>18567463>>18567464As I said There are no photos/videos
>>18567428Why wouldn't Mary do a world tour? Why can't she heal all the lepers in existence? Why not cure the aids riddled faggots too? That would make everyone believe
>>18567468Yet here we have a photo directly from a newspaper. Why do you think it's fake? Show me the source that says this.
>>18567469>>18567428Not an argument.
>>18567463I don't see a gradient, and I suspect you have absolutely no idea what that word means.
>>18567480There are photos of an anomalous light source, the commonly reported and referred to photos of the roof etc are recognized and reported as superimposed illustrations
>>18567571>>18567480
>>18567574So is this an illustration or a real photo of the event?
>>18566343>Soon afterward, Egypt's Ministry of Tourism also issued a validation of the sightings, and began printing pamphlets. The apparitions were also allegedly witnessed by President Gamal Abdel Nasser,[5] and images photographed by newspaper photographers and Egyptian television.Obviously it was some kind of psyop by the Egyptian government to distract people from the Six Day War, and repair Egypt's international reputation (since Mary is venerated by Christians and Muslims alike). So they put some vagueley human-shaped light source on the church and called the press.
>>18567377>Yes, I faked all those other photos but THIS ONE is real I swear!No. You lie once, you're a liar. There would be no need to fake any of it if it was real.
>>18566343It's a hoax using various hoax methods. Same kinds of tricks used in magic acts. And a lot of straight up lying and faked evidence. Pretty typical for this kind of thing.
>>18566361>You know the Bible says that it's a bad thing to be full of debate, right?No it does not.
I would first need evidence that the collection of "photographs" are not all the work of one person perpetuating a hoax. There is a claim of "multiple independent photographers". Well, who were they?
>>18567569I meant grainy. You can see that there's grainy stuff in lower parts of the glowing figure
>>18566343>What is the skeptic / atheist explanation for Zeitoun Marian apparitions?There are none, unless you count the bad faith attempts.People who see this and ignore it are either under some sort of demonic influence, or openly and consciously choose to remain in sin. It's really that shrimple.
>>18567670I think this thread has already established that the only mysterious or unexplainable thing about the entire thing is the source of the light. The only people who saw Mary were people who wanted to see her, or later remembered seeing her.
>>18566343>>18566420>>18567574Are any of these photos real or tempered with?
>>18567749The only real ones are of a blurry light source, none of the common ones in the shape of a figure etc are undoctored
>>18567651And?
>>18567761Thanks, wasn't sure about this. So the newspaper one is the only undoctored ITT?
>>18566343Probably just a prank. An actual woman or mannequin was put on the roof and some of the people who were supposed to investigate it were in on it. Alternatively there is a way to get on and off the roof that isn't commonly known.If David Blaine could pull it off then I kind of assume no magic or miracles were involved.
>>18566343They've literally tried to explain it with Earthquake Lights lmao
>>18566343Obviously a hoax of some sort, you christfags are so very dumb to fall for this shit.
>>18568684They're not necessarily dumb, they're mostly just very desperate for any sort of proof of the existence of an afterlife, because they're terrified of death.
>>18567772It obviously means there is a physical figure, and the light weakened in that part. Just look at it carefully and you'll see a figure.
>>18566343lsd in the water supply
>>18567773NTA but no. It's doctored. See the strange way the light cuts off at the top?
>>18566343A wizard did it.
>>18568710It's not doctored, it's a real photo. Why do you lie?
Ok, here’s my answer while disregarding the particulars of this superstitionYou are a superstitious fool led to and fro by any claim of supernatural activity (though apparently not by those which occur outside of the church of Rome, curious). Scripture says that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and we are to test the spirits (1 John 4:1) and test prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-3). You 1. Are foolishly led astray by any spirit which you do not test by the scriptures, and as a result use this fables and apparitions to nullify the word of God 2. Play the false prophet’s role by using said fables and apparitions to argue why we should abandon the teachings of scripture in favor of idolatrous false religion which is condemned by it in the harshest terms (see Deu. 13 for what the law of God prescribes should happen to such persons) These supposed miracles serve to distract and detract from the work of Christ, rather than directing to it. Therefore, whatever they are, they are not from God.
