>>18578502

>[...] there needs to be evil on Earth for there to be free will.


NOONE BELIEVES THAT; NOT EVEN SATANISTS.

>>18578522
Are you kidding? That is probably the most common Christian apologetic about evil.

>>18578535


FREE WILL IS THE FACULTY OF ELECTION: TO BE ABLE TO CHOOSE IS FREE WILL.

EVIL IS NOT NECESSARY: IT IS OPTIONAL.

>>18578549
yay no more og sin

>>18578550


?

>>18578502
God created Earth as a cosmic sieve to sort out the few of humanity who could take his gift of Free Will with die Willensstärke to be consistently good in Heaven. Gods powers know no limits, but Willensstärke is an eccentric substance that exists outside this world and even his reach.

If God is omniscient then he knows what all of our fates. The existence of a future that is set in stone invalidates free will. The fact that we can't see it doesn't make our futures any less-fated.
If God can't see our fates, then he's not omniscient. And the rest is just Epicurus.
And even if God chooses to intervene, then free will is invalidated. It's a system full of holes. The only way that I can think of to reconcile this dilemma is having God choose to not see the future or at least parts of it. If God doesn't look at the spoilers, then our fates go unwitnessed. One could still make the argument that the universe is deterministic because there is still only one fate we can arrive at and that we can only make any unique decision once, but at least with God not knowing, he'd remain ethical and not the omniscient-but-still angry schizo from the Bible.

>>18578563
>Gods powers know no limits
except just knowing who would choose what and instead just creating people who he knows would always choose the good, apparently.

>>18578644
yes, that and Willensstärke

>>18578502
God has reserved the highest positions of heaven and the greatest of all crowns to men who prevail against evil on earth until their dying day. God has allowed evil on earth because those who were born in this evil age and lived surrounded by evil temptations and suffered all their days this evil that surrounds them yet despite this loved and feared God so much that they avoided evil at all cost and still chose to do good will have become in the end the most precious and valuable beings in all the universe.

They are going to be set forever even above the angels. Angels and archangels will worship them as they worship god, the spirit and the light of God himself will swell and shine in them and they will have his authority forever. This god has promised to those who choose good over evil even when it's difficult and evil so tempting.

God is forging those who resemble his image. Earth is a furnace in which God has been creating the most rigtheous beings ever made. The ones who will forever bare his name.

And all the temptations of the flesh and all the suffering they endured to remain loyal is the fire that is refining them.

>>18578502
Evil is part of God's essence which we share as we are an extension of Him
Our task is to attain mastery over sin as He does, so we may participate in His masterpiece
You can either accept the task or keep crying about it, but you will never escape it

>>18578842
Willensstärke

>>18578502
Is the will free?

>>18578582
Allah just created all the options for you and has always known what you will pick bro, it's not determinism.

>>18578887
With the power of his Ruach all things are possible.

>>18578502
Heaven is where your carnal mind is burnt away; leaving you with your soul and spirit. It is "Free will" but less free but who cares?
>erm erm I just want to like, express myself
You can, but if you're in Heaven, you wouldn't even want* to "express" sin.

Further information: the New Earth after the Resurrection works like a feudal worker's paradise; fiefs of fiefs of fiefs assorted by the "glory" those persons attained to; the more profitable they were to Christ on the Old Earth, the more Christ rewards them in the New. It is written that "every man shall dwell under his own fig tree". There is no way of knowing how literal this is, but I believe it indicates that there is a degree of both free will and self-determination even in Heaven/the New Earth.

>>18578582
If this word "god" is the first cause, and we have free will, and can cause things, then we are "gods".


Behold!
A virgin shall be with child and shall bring forth a Son,
and they shall call His name
Emmanuel, which means, "God with us".

“I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’

God is the benevolent choices of "gods".

God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:

“How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

>>18578842
>God is forging those who resemble his image. Earth is a furnace in which God has been creating the most rigtheous beings ever made. The ones who will forever bare his name.
Igne natura renovatur integra... INRI

>>18578998
>You can, but if you're in Heaven, you wouldn't even want* to "express" sin.
Now, it's universally agreed among theologians that a man who is filled with evil impulses and urges, but through sheer strength of will refuses to act upon them and instead choses to follow God in everything he does will absolutely be welcomed by God into Heaven.

Why would the evil urges stop once he's in Heaven, would God remove them?

(Also, that's a really good pitch for Christianity because I fucking love figs)

>>18579060
>Why would the evil urges stop once he's in Heaven, would God remove them?
Because going to heaven is a transition that requires you being reborn

In this rebirth spirit nature overtakes human nature. Jesus spoke about this with nicodemus

>>18578563
>God created Earth as a cosmic sieve to sort out the few of humanity who could take his gift of Free Will
Why would an omniscient being need to "sort out" anything? Here we go again

>>18579079
Because we have free will and eventually we will learn better just like a child does

300 years ago you would have been sent to a mental asylum to be abused in all kinds of ways... nowadays we include you in society :^) so its not so bad sweaty

>>18579072
So the urges are his human nature and his will of strength his spirit nature? So then the spirit is basically pure will?

>>18579079
I covered that:
>Willensstärke is an eccentric substance that exists outside this world and even his reach.

>>18579079
Because He is a creative entity that is choosing to do so

>>18579091
creative cope

>>18579090
Where did I say any of that?

You think human beings are as simple as a dichotomy?

But yes, there are bodily urges (instincts, biology, conditioning, etc) and there are things of the spirit.

Will, however, does not necessarily come from spirit... otherwise animals and nature wouldn't be God and they are as much god as we are. Only thing different is that we are made in his image (likeness, consciousness... the capacity to discern; choose).

>>18578502
You have free will in heaven, but everyone gets turned into sloths and tortoises and other animals with low attack potential.

Christians want to be turned into the borg.

>>18579124
>The borg have free will and make good life choices.

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>>18579060
>(Also, that's a really good pitch for Christianity because I fucking love figs)
based, me too.

>Why would the evil urges stop once he's in Heaven, would God remove them?
Yes. But this is something you agree to by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ anyways; it's a sincere admission that you hate/dislike/wish to be rid of the carnal urges which are sin (since, to believe on Christ, one has to admit that sin is wrong in the first place).

>>18578502
No because you are reading things as absolutes. First of all, you didn’t say whether it is Christians or not you got it from, but I suspect you did because this is one of the things I shared in a frog thread asking what happens in heaven. And then to add to the first of all: the entire Bible is based on By Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ (The Lord and Savior).
This means even when Christians know something is true, if they focus too hard on it being a fact, they can stray from the thing they are focusing on. Know what I mean? Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins and so his blood is payment for the thing you are saying you are worried about, it you are reaching too hard into absolutes and into philosophy. It’s by grace through faith which means God obtained heaven for you because He is based, and that will remain the same forever even in heaven. Even after we become sinless God is still always going to be better than us at everything and we’ll still be finite men and women. That’s why we will praise God forever because it will always be God who is better than us. God always looked at His Creation and said what He saw. Good. He didn’t say it is perfect. When it became filled with sin he looked and got offended at seeing weakness and death coming into His Creation. God had never seen weak humans before that couldn’t speak. When Moses tried to explain he can’t speak very well, and needed someone who could. God knew humans would soon be born missing whole body parts, with disorders both physical and mental. That’s why to sin at all it immediately brought this on. It’s like taking a wild dog or cat and turning it into a a domesticated pet. You have now (ruined?) changed that animal’s very course on earth. The Bible also ends with heaven or hell. You either want to go with the beast in hell or the upright in heaven. The difference is that the upright experience no shame together at the table. God is the dominant one. He loves you.

>>18579147
Could you sin in heaven if you wanted to?

>>18579224
Yes. You can, but you won't want to.
Can and will are two different things.
Omnipotence is potential, not actualization. Only the benevolent is actualized.

>>18579231
>Yes. You can, but you won't want to.
Ok, so if God can create a world where free will exists but no one chooses evil (Heaven), why didn't he just create Earth that way?

>>18579224
In the coming age there will be no evil. Everyone will be incapable of doing evil, but only those who rejected veil on earth will get to live in the coming age which is the world to come.

>>18579241
refer to >>18579235

>>18579245
This age is this age and the coming age is the coming age. God created this earth this way because it pleased him to do so. And those who love him in this age of suffering will get to live forever in the coming age of neverending joy and eternal happiness.

That's what he thought was just and fair and so he did it.

>>18579249
>God created this earth this way because it pleased him to do so.
It pleased him to create evil?

>>18579231
Knowledge is not the same as experience. We experience right and wrong. We taste it. We don't just "know" it through some deterministic unfeeling mechanism or law or borg like algorithm. We choose to "be", and this is what it means to "be".

>>18579252
If you have no reached point in which you understand that if God does it then it must be right then you are not wise enough. This wisdom has been given to lowly children because their humility by it has been hidden from great thinkers because of their pride. Lest they think they discovered it by their own intelligence and was not gifted to them by the Most High.

>>18579256
>If you have no reached point in which you understand that if God does it then it must be right then you are not wise enough

Being obedient to authority is not the same as having morals. You have no morals. This is why religious cults are dangerous.

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>>18579231
"Earth" is being created that way, and David hume-an beings are a part of the decision making process. And you kant stop it.

>>18579265
>>18579255
These are for (you) >>18579235

>>18579266
>"Earth" is being created that way
If God is both wholly good and supremely powerful (omniscient) then he would skip earth to the heaven state without making it go through evil first. Causing/permitting evil precludes you from being completely benevolent.

>>18579268
>I understand what an omnipotent being should be doing
No you don't

>>18579252
It pleased Him to create a child in His image
What being do you know can have a child that is not made in their own image? It is not possible
Therefore, evil is a part of God's image as it is a part of our own

>>18579268
Heaven and God are non-corporeal. That is why they are equated to "sky". In secular terms, they might be called "conceptualizations" or "ideal states".

Omniscience is all knowledge.
So with all of our potential (omnipotence) and all of our knowledge (omnisciencs) we choose to actualize benevolance.

Thy kingdom come, on Earth, as it is in Heaven.

Heaven has no body, but we choose to have a body, and we choose to actualize Heaven on Earth.

The bible says that only God is good, no one 'chooses' anything related to morality
you only choose to submit to God, or rebel against him
Satan has no problem with whatever you call righteousness, he just doesn't want you to submit to God, because he knows he loses power over you when you do that

Yes, this age is a legal argument between God and Satan, it's not truly about morality
Hebrews 2:14

>>18579336
I know thats what the bible says. Try looking at it without the preconceived notion that the bible is 100% true for once.

>>18578582
>If God is omniscient then he knows what all of our fates. The existence of a future that is set in stone invalidates free will
Except people don't know the fates and aren't omniscient, so your whole premise is invalidated. God knowing doesn't mean "Ackshually, whatever we choose doesn't matter", when it does. You saying "We can't see it, but it's still set in stone" doesn't hold up. It doesn't negate free agency to reach that final point.

>>18579446
>God knowing doesn't mean "Ackshually, whatever we choose doesn't matter", when it does.

Whether we think we have an option doesn't matter. God knows which choice you will actually choose, which means free will doesn't actually exist.

>>18578549
So why is there evil on Earth?

>>18579715
Don't reply to him

>>18579711
>When I have a child, because I know which option they will pick when I am teaching them a lesson means there is no point in doing it

>>18579780
>When I have a child, because I know which option they will pick

You don't know everything your child will do in their life because you're not an omniscient being. God knows everything everyone will ever do, because he is an omniscient being.

>>18579784
What is preventing God from occluding His own knowledge of the future? He is omnipotent and can do anything

>>18579787
>What is preventing God from occluding His own knowledge of the future?
Where in the Bible does it say he does this? The only thing it says about his omniscience is that he is all knowing. i.e. he knows all things

>>18579711
Our free will is god. That's what god is, the "first cause".
God, with a capitol G, is the ideal choice.

“I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’

God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:

>>18579792
Why does God have to call out to Adam when looking for him in the garden
Why does God call out the Abel, when Cain had already murdered him?

>>18579816
To make a point. Are you seriously about to argue that God isn't all knowing?

>>18579787
That's what I was saying in my original post. The only way I can rationalize God being omniscient but still punishing us for our sins is for him to choose to not know our fates. Otherwise, he comes across as a complete schizo.
Imagine writing a book and getting angry at your characters for not making better decisions.
It's like those annual Toradora streams where everyone argues about who's gonna win this year. Now imagine that you're being sincere about it and get mad at Taiga for winning because you legitimately believe that the show you've already watched will have a different ending.
That's God.

>>18579833
I'm not concerned with how you personally rationalize (cope about) it, I'm concerned with what the text says

>>18579715


OBVIOUSLY, BECAUSE WE CHOOSE EVIL, AND WE CHOOSE EVIL, EVEN WHEN WE KNOW THAT IT IS EVIL, AND WHEN WE KNOW WHAT WOULD BE THE GOOD THING TO DO, BECAUSE WE ARE DAMAGED BY ORIGINAL SIN; WE ARE AFFLICTED WITH A PERPETUAL TENDENCY TOWARD EVIL.

>>18579830
I'm arguing God can voluntarily do anything that he wants, including block his knowing of the actions of his children so he may rejoice when they reunite with him of their own free will (which they have because they are larval forms of God, which is a free and creative being)
>>18579833
God doesn't desire to punish, but to correct his people so they learn to repent and correct themselves in that they may one day attain mastery over chaos and sin inheriting their own worlds which they have dominion over

>>18579937
>reunite with him of their own free will (which they have because they are larval forms of God, which is a free and creative being)
Saying that we larval forms of God implies that we can become (a) God. Are you a Mormon?
Besides that, union with God is impossible. God is that which is, and we are creation.

>>18579954
I just meant more of a union like a reunion like in the prodigal son

Not a morman, more esoteric informed by the orthodox (theosis) but don't want to go to church or fast 40% of the year so I don't commit to them yet

sorry guys, the bible doesn't actually say that God knows the future, he's not doctor who
it says "he calls what is not, as though it is" and "my counsel shall stand"
he chooses the future, and doesn't merely see it

if your response is 'predestination' or 'prophecy,' those also work with God making the choices
it says nowhere that everyone is predestined, but it says in many places that he has chosen particular individuals for particular tasks

>>18578502
ps2 rock band guitar hero algorithm

There is no heaven or hell, there is only Sheol

>>18580355
Unless the hindus are right we all get reincarnated as caterpillars for making fun of the poop in the streets.

>>18580387
spoiler alert: the hindus are right