If the Aztecs, Mayans, etc. were never conquered or christianized, how developed would they be today? Which country would they resemble more, Japan or India?
>>18581796More like Guatemala
>>18581796I don't think that's even a possible outcome. They would not be content with anything less than complete domination of their surroundings. If the Spanish didn't massacre them first, they'd easily try to massacre the Spaniards. Eventually, they'd be required to be eliminated, and with the Spaniards vast technological superiority and their germs, this could really only go one way.Also, the Aztecs are far more violent and bloodthirsty than anyone else on earth, the likes of their warmongering and violence does not even exist in modern times. BUT if they still existed, they'd be an even more violent of Mexico (and not that different from present day Mexico).... that cartel bloodshed turns out pretty similar to the Aztecs in cruelty.
>>18581796India is a conquered subcontinent btw.Anyways the Aztecs still collapse due to internal struggle and the region fall into city state free for all which it has been following this cycle for a long time. Unless the kingdom that gets to dominate are the purepechas which begun to use administrative ideas such as replacing conquered city states’ nobility with their governors.
>>18581796Fairly well developed I reckon.
>>18581796Amerindians were technologically capped at bronze age tier levels of development. There simply weren't any viable locations with the resources to sustain a large centralized power the way it is traditional defined when studying Eurasian civilizations. This is also why "empire" is a very flimsy term for the tributary city states that existed in mesoamerica.
DUE TO THE ANTHROPOPHAGIC PRACTICES OF THEIR DEMONICAL CULTS, THE PERMANENT PAUCITY OF NATURAL RESOURCES, AND THEIR ETHNOTRIBALISTIC CUSTOMS, THEY WOULD HAVE EVENTUALLY GONE EXITINCT; ALL OF THEM, IN THE ENTIRE CONTINENT.
>>18581867>señooor I love Spanish cock señoorrr Why are hispanistas like this?
>>18581871YOU ARE MENTALLY ILL.
>>18581796>Which country would they resemble more, Japan or India?lol
>>18581796No idea, but it would definitely be better than Latinx America.
Cultures with an obsession with community service and cleanliness would never turn into India. They'd definitely be closer to Asian countries, possibly authoritarians like China, though Japan descends from warrior death cults as well so it's certainly possible they'd end up with a similar cultural path. They'd probably still end up as loud party loving extroverts like modern Mexicans, but with a more high trust society.>>18581871Don't respond to tripfags
>>18581861>bronze age tier levels of development.There is no such thing. Three age system is a convenient way to divide the pre history of Europe, the near East and some areas of North Africa it isn't meant to be measurement of linear technological development
>>18582445Japan is more or less a de-facto one party state. It actually reminds me slightly of the PRI in 20th century Mexico, actually. But less violent and with longer lasting economic success.
>>18581818>Also, the Aztecs are far more violent and bloodthirsty than anyone else on earth, the likes of their warmongering and violence does not even exist in modern timesThis is kind of a stupid simplification based on colonial propaganda. The Aztecs had the same worldview as any other mesoamerican tribe, of capturing people instead of killing them on battles (which made them vulnerable to spanish artillery) and sacrificing them to their gods ritualistically. The difference is that they developed a full-time military, something that other tribes didn't, and used that to conquer the whole surrounding region, which granted them more sacrificial victims.The idea that the Aztecs were especially cruel compared to any other mesoamerican culture is retarded. The other tribes united forces with the spaniards due to political rivalry, not due to a moral impulse to stop the sacrifices. If those tribes had the chance, they would be the ones capturing people and sacrificing them instead.Even more retarded is calling the Aztecs more violent than the Spaniards themselves, who stopped the sacrifices by genociding everyone and destroying all their cities (something even the Aztecs didn't do), proving they weren't no less bloodthirsty than any other native culture.
>>18581796Probably like Japan or China, eventually westernized but still keeping something of their individual culture. Also like this anon said >>18582445, they would be authoritarians and (kinda hysterically so) shame-based societies, like eastern asians.But since the cultural dominance of Europe even today is largely due to the colonization of the Americas, it's hard to imagine our westernized world without the previous conquest of mesoamerican societies. I think even East Asia wouldn't be as westernized today if the Americas weren't completely conquered beforehand.
>>18581796>how developed would they be todayExample of China and Japan made it abundantly clear that without external stimuli a society even with the most sophisticated culture stagnates and stops scientific progress. There is no reasonable argument to support a view that they would somehow advance beyond their stage of development during the Spanish conquests.The Maya civilization collapsed on its own without a violent external takeover.
>>18581796I think the Mesoamericans were destined to be conquered even if Cortes' expedition failed since Europeans were still searching for an sea route to Asia. The question is how long could they possibly hold out and how much of their culture they could saveJapan is an interesting comparison because they adopted modern technology from the Dutch and Portguese traders. If the Mesoamericans adopted European technology quickly they could hold out for longer. The most realistic option for the preservation of Mesoamerican culture is that the Bourbons never change New Spains official language from Nahuatl to Spanish
>>18582693>The Maya civilization collapsedOpinion discarded, fuck off retard. I really don't understand how this myth still exists in the 21st century, but then again most common knowledge about Mesoamericans is nonsensical myths in general.
>>18582445Also, Don't respond to mesolarps
the Aztecs are far more violent and bloodthirsty than anyone else on earth. Period
>>18583269>areI'm not gonna be lectured about history by someone who speaks worse English than an American second grader lol.
>>18581818>we murdered 150 million, but they're the bad oneschristcucks everyoneWere the conquistadors not welcomed as guests?
>>18581818>Also, the Aztecs are far more violent and bloodthirsty than anyone else on earth, the likes of their warmongering and violence does not even exist in modern times.Nazi Germany?
>>18582550It puts a hard cap on technology.
>>18583288>gonnaKeep your shitheaded opinions to yourself if you can't even adhere to your own standards.
>>18581818In fact, the most violent part of Mexico is the most European part.
>>18583381Stop making shit up
>>18582445I think you're missing that East Asians have an average IQ of 100-105, and Amerindians about 85.
>>18583923>Source Imadeitup.comInb4 he post some shitty graph that doesn't explain where they got their data
>>18583927You don't actually care about the data, as your MO is to ignore what's right in front of your face, but here's one anywayhttps://sci-hub.ru/10.1017/s0021932003006497>the results for Mexico gives an IQ for whites of 98·0, for Mestizos of 94·3 and for Native Mexican Indians of 83·3. It is proposed that these are the best estimates of the IQs of the three Mexican ethnic groups in relation to a British IQ of 100.It's also common sense. What have Amerindians done to suggest they have an intelligence on par with Europeans (and by extension East Asians)? The societies they create, their measured results, observed behavior all point to an average IQ of the mid 80s, which is consistent with THE results. It's all very simple.
>>18581867This doesn't even make sense, they had been around for like 3000 years when the Spanish came around, why the fuck would they suddenly eat each other into extinction just then
>>18583977>LynnLmao
>>18581818>They would not be content with anything less than complete domination of their surroundingsNo? They didn't even bother conquering the primitive tribals to their north or the less developed copycats to their south to any significant degree
>>18583490LMAO, what an embarrassing response Jesus Christ. No one who fluently speaks English gives a shit about things like "gonna", at most you wouldn't want to use it in SOME business meetings or formal situations. Getting past and present tense correct is an ESSENTIAL part of speaking comprehensible English, even toddlers can do it. English speakers will put up their language being distorted and rearranged in all sorts of ways so long it's comprehensible, mixing up are and were is one of the very few unforgivable mistakes that can make the information you're trying to convey impossible to understand.
>>18583977>Richard Lynn >DataDumbass
>>18583923>Amerindians living in cities get butchered, die of smallpox, or raped out of existence>the only remaining pure Amerindians are the ones who virtually abandoned all civilization and fled into extreme undesirable wildernesses to remain isolatedSHOCKING that these people wouldn't be well educated and highly intelligent. Also tons of them lie about their heritage for the censuses. Don't forget the last organized attempt at genocide of the Mayan people was as recent as the 1990s, and most of the people behind it still haven't faced justice. Modern Amerindians are very much a post apocalyptic people.
>>18583977The second youngest IMO medalist in history is a Peruvian Indian. Peru also performs much better in PISA than Argentina. I think this contradicts the hypothesis that natives have very low innate IQs.
>>18584313>>the only remaining pure Amerindians are the ones who virtually abandoned all civilization and fled into extreme undesirable wildernesses to remain isolatedBit of a ridiculous claim. Most remaining pure amerindians are quite simply descendants of rural hamlet-dwellers the Spaniards didn't bother much. They number in the tens of millions and mostly live in perfectly desirable highland farmland after all, not jungles or whatever the stereotype says.That being said, you're still right in that they mostly live lifestyles that aren't exactly conductive for education or academic development.
>>18581796> Which country would they resemble more, Japan or India?Why are latinx so obsessed with these two places? No Gordito, Spanish Catholicism didn’t make you brown and retarded, you were born that way. They were already in a declining cycle when the conquistadors gave them the hard dicking brown women all crave, and absent that, they would be most like Mesopotamia circa 800 BC.
>>18583269>>18583490ESL hispanista faggot cope. You will always be 60%+ genetically amerindian.
>>18584331The available DNA evidence actually indicates that (contemporary) Injuns are genetically on par with if not *slightly* dumber than both Niger-Congoids and Nilo-Saharans.
>>18584379And why don't you post this evidence?
>>18584343>They were already in a declining cycle when the conquistadors gave them the hard dicking brownThey weren't tho, both the Aztec and Inca Empires were the absolute height of their respective civilizations and neither were in anything close to decline by any definition of the word at the time of european contact (aside from the european plagues and subsequent civil war that swept through the Andes, but Pizarro's expedition was actually not the first contact)
>>18583319The Nazis didnt kill people to make the sun rise.Its weird that you say the Nazis and not the Slavs, makes me think youre slavic because slavs are the only people in the world that have been consistently genocidal and brutal to everyone regardless of era.Nazis technically were only defending themselves from forms of Slavic aggression.
>>18583984I DID NOT STATE THAT THEY WOULD GO EXTINCT SUDDENLY.THE MAJOR CIVILIZATIONS IN THE CONTINENT: THE MEXICA, AND THE INCA, WERE AT THE NADIR OF THEIR DECADENCE, AND AMERINDIANS, IN GENERAL, HAD NEVER BEEN FEWER BY THE XVI CENTURY; THEY HAD AROUND A HUNDRED YEARS BEFORE EXTINCTION.
>>18584406>Nazis technically were only defending themselves from forms of Slavic aggression.>technicallyAllying with the USSR alto invade Poland and then declaring war on them when you run out of oil is "technically" defending yourself I guess.
>>18584383Apologies for my lateness.Using both the 1000 genomes dataset alongside personally collected data, Davide Piffer found that NC and NS speakers had slightly higher EA3 than native americans. He has also found that EA3 is strongly correlated with group IQ.
>>18584609The "P. IQ" here was determined by me via linear regression between Japs, UK whites, US blacks, UK jeets, and UK gypsies.See:Japanese Performance Profile on the WAIS-IV and Purported Cultural InfluencesGeneral mental ability testing and adverse impact in the United Kingdom: a meta-analysis with more than two million observations
>>18584609Post the study, not a sloppy image.
>>18584609>a fucking zoomed in microsoft excel screenshot as evidence
>>18584618>>18584624The data within is not freely available.https://open.substack.com/pub/pifferpilfer/p/exploring-genetic-traits-around-the?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=88fybw
>>18584627>I have the data you just can't see it!
>>18584609>Andean, Amazon basinNot only is this not real evidence, those people aren't even Mesoamerican
>>18584627Post his references.
>>18581818>>18583269The Aztecs aren't that violent as far as empires went for pretty much all of history. They ruled a tributary empire of subjugated and allied city states - these states governed themselves and were required to provide economic tribute and participate in war. That's pretty lenient when compared to how old world empires worked most of the time
>>18584479>WERE AT THE NADIR OF THEIR DECADENCENo they hadn't, the Aztec Empire was the undisputed hegemon of the region, with their last regional rival (Tlaxcala) on its way out and its only foreign rival (the Purepecha) stagnating, likewise the Inca were at their height until smallpox epidemic hit them>AND AMERINDIANS, IN GENERAL, HAD NEVER BEEN FEWER BY THE XVI CENTURYSource?
>>18584331Why do you think the existence of that medalist contradicts anything? Should I start naming all the per-eminent European math prodigies and mathematicians? Wouldn't be able to fit in one post obviously>much betterYou mean slightly better. Argentina placed 62nd with 395, and Peru 58th with 402.
>>18584695>per-eminentpreeminent*
>>18584695In mathematics, the difference is significant. Also, Peru consistently performs better in math Olympiads than European countries with larger populations. Look at Spain, which, with 20 million more inhabitants, consistently performs worse than Peru. How is this not contradictory to the hypothesis of a population with innate low intelligence?
>>18584709Because math olympiads is not relevant for the population average general intelligence. For all I know they have Soviet-style-chess-emphasis in the country, or people there take it super seriously for scholarships to get out of poverty or w/e (I'm just guessing, and this whether the guess is right or wrong is irrelevant). Whilst in America for example it's mostly seen as a game. Most of the best mathematicians and researchers don't do olympiads, they do actual math research.It's like pointing out that Nigeria does really well in Scrabble, and trying to use that as evidence that their intelligence is on par with the Germans and Japanese
>>18584731Scrabble is very niche. Math is something everyone learns in school. Spain also offers Bitcoin prize money to students who win gold medals at the IMO—you can look that up online. That doesn't happen in Peru, yet the Spanish don't seem to take it any less seriously.
>>18584751I don't know why you insist on arguing against the obvious. You want to compare math output? Spaniards obliterate Peruvians in mathematical research. And when I looked at the preeminent Peruvian mathematicians, all two of them, they both look like castizos (pic related).And in mathematical research, Spain is fairly modest in comparison to Germany, UK, France, and Italy. But back to the topic of average intelligence. Peru is consistent with an average intelligence that is equivalent with about an 85 average IQ. This figure does not preclude the existence of people like the kid you posted.
>>18584778>mathematical researchThat is an even more exclusive niche. Even Japanese mathematicians have fewer citations than the Spanish, despite achieving far more important results.
This thread is getting seriously off topic. Do you guys think Mesoamerica was at the beginning of a metalworking revolution, or would it have been much more slow and gradual? Do you think the Aztecs would have been able to conquer the Tlaxcalans and Purepecha? If so, could they have moved southeast afterwards and unified Mesoamerica? Would they have eventually adopted the superior Mayan writing system, or reformed their own to be more like it? Would they have started giving a shit about the Chichimecs to their north? Would they have reformed their system of slavery once they stopped having regular wars to provide new captives?
>>18583977>>18584609>>18584695>>18584731Fucking kill yourself retarded tranny subhuman, daily reminder that amerindians invented writing, metallurgy, astronomy, numeral systems, built massive stone monuments and buildings and created fucking civilization by themselves unlike your shit eating ancestors, go get replaced by a pack of africans and muslims
>>18584993settle down mesoanon
>>18584995would mesoanon call you a retarded snownigger tranny? I don't think he would
>>18584999he's chimped out like that before, so probably
>>18585000your race is going extinct and you will be replaced by negroids and muslims.
>>18585006what's that got to do with native americans mesoanon
>>18585007snownigger IQ on full display
>>18584993The civilization they had is consistent with an average IQ of about 85. You see Lebanon today? That's a society with an average IQ of about 85.
>>18585036>Peru IQ: 99.37amerindians mog your race, which is soon to be replaced by africans and muslims btw
>>18585052theres no way those figures are accurate for the hamster eaters
>>18585054let me guess, you're some sort of subhuman spic abomination?
>>18585059i'm not peruvian, no
>>18585060amerindians are not spics like (You) by defintion, only subhuman moor rapebaby spicniards and their spic descendants are spics
>>18585052At least post where you're getting your data from.
>>18584379Structural Cognitive Modifiability proves you're just a dumbass who repeats shit without even knowing what it means or implies.You don't know science, why are you even talking about IQ?. Did you even go to college?
>>18585104>Structural Cognitive Modifiability (SCM) is an educational and psychological theory developed by Reuven Feuersteinoy gevalt!
>>18585116>Did you even go to college?Lol
>>18585118>Reuven Feuerstein was a Romanian-born Israeli/his/ finds the one good israeli kek
>>18585125>>18585116Let me guess: youe favorite word is "christcuck" lol
The old Mayan kingdoms collapsed in 900s and core Mayans regressed to tribes living near city ruins and fort villages fighting each other. Northern mayans in Yucatán had more development since 1000s but still fractured kingdoms. Aztecs would have collapsed probably and civil war would have broken them out into various nation kingdoms city states and chiefdoms. If contact is never made with the old world it would still be undeveloped primitive. If contact is eventually made without conquest there woukd still have been a population crash from diseases and a collapse of many kingdoms and nations. After that there would be slow population regrowth. Probably some level of christianization would still happen but not full. But if christianization doesn’t happen Latin America would look like a combination of India Somalia and Guatemala today with many different kingdoms with genocide nationalism chimping out against one another over hegemony like in Oaxaca Mixtecs fighting zapotecs while both work to genocide smaller groups. many nations being disfunctional with civil wars. Uneven economic development. Central America would be mostly tribal like Africa with some Mayans in Yucatán having legible nations. Northern Mexico would be entirely tribal
>>18585170>undeveloped primitiveDid you read this thread? They had medicine, math, astronomy, architecture, agriculture, metalworking, etcHow were they "underdeveloped" or "primitive"?
>>18585093
>>18581796I still don't understand how their cities basically disappeared in a couple of centuries
>>18585668How long do you think it would take for Maryland to be swallowed by nature in case of a catastrophe?
>>18585673But Americans build their houses with cardboard and not stones
All this talk about amerindian IQ, as if Spics weren’t just inferior, retarded monkeys.
>>18585648You're posting an online IQ test. Amazing you guys make fun of Lynn, then pull shit like this.Imagine if Lynn did that kek
>ese we’d like Japan or India mang if we still had our tlatonis…>chu know the priests brought los negros here? Dats why we are brown and retarded now, pinche pendejo!Stupid as shit, pre contact mesoamerica didn’t even have bronze tools, you WISH you would be half as good as India if you weren’t dragged kicking and screaming out of the Stone Age.
>>18585679Their huts aren't all that durable. It's like any other type of peasant housing. It falls apart without maintenance and leaves little behind. Though ngl I think most of the big abandoned cities were intentionally deserted. In my view, the cities lost spiritual legitimacy as 'centers' of ceremony, economy, etc. And were abandoned for that reason. >>18585683At least we aren't pretending there's anything scientific about it. Not like the IQ peddling is particularly convincing to anyone not already convinced. It is gut feelings and intuitions all the way down.
>>18585891they did have bronze tools
>>18585668They were torn down during Cortes' lifetime to use the materials for other things
>>18585668The majority of them, including nearly all the major ones, became colonial cities and had their buildings all torn down accordingly, since the Spanish weren't about to let pagan pyranids still standing. Just about every single inhabited settlement in central and southern Mexico today either used to be a pre-columbian city with pyramids and everything, a hamlet paying tribute to a pre-columbian city, or a Spanish town deliberately founded to replace a native city they couldn't or didn't want to use for whatever reason.This is also why most famous mesoamerican archaeological sites were abandoned at some point or another, because if it was still inhabited when the Spanish came around, chances were they were gonna get turned into a colonial hispanic settlement.
>>18585849Lynn literally used IQ stats from malnourished guatemalan children in an orphanage, not to mention he's a negrophiliac fetishist that unironically believes blacks have da biggest diks n shiet because apparently having a big dick makes you retarded, typical snownigger psychotic delusions, your subhuman kind is just like kikes
>>18585170>But if christianization doesn’t happen Latin America would look like a combination of India Somalia and Guatemala todayNope, it would look more like China and Japan.
>>18586021Japanese have an average IQ of 105, and the Chinese about 100. Native Americans averages are in the 80s. That means a 10th percentile Japanese is about as intelligent as the average Native. Good luck building Switzerland or Japan with a population with a low average intelligence (compared to those anyway; the world average is about an 85).
>>18585980This one pseudo Race Scientist still does racism the old fashioned way! (Bizarre anxieties of of blacks as hyper-sexual animals).
>>18581796The state of Mesoamerica when it was found by whites is one of deep onset collapse, the decline from its pinnacle having happened, sliding subsequently into a bloody degeneracy not unlike what the current world will experience on a global level if the light races do disappear like elves sailing into the west.
>>18584833>Would they have eventually adopted the superior Mayan writing system, or reformed their own to be more like it?I hope not. The central mexican writing system was amazing, and I wish we still used it for stuff. They're used for different things, the central mexican scripts were superior in certain respects, there was a performance element to them.
>>18586097I know you're told this every time you post that picture and you quite simply don't want to listen, but the mesoamerican plumed serpent wasn't a solar deity Depending on the time and place, it could be associated primarily with fire, water, or wind, but never really the sun. The reason wikipedia is listing the sun as one of Quetzalcoatl's attributes is either because of the Five Suns myth, whose entire narrative consists of showing that multiple gods were sun gods at one point but not in this age (whose sun is Tonatiuh), or because wikipedia is notoriously shitty when it comes to anything Mesoamerica-related lol
>>18586282I get it, you are retarded and don't know better.
>>18584833>Would they have eventually adopted the superior Mayan writing system, or reformed their own to be more like it?The entire reason the central mexican pictogram system was so widespread was because of it not being necessarily tied to spoken language the way the Maya script was, thus becoming perfect for international interaction. By the looks of it, most Mesoamerican cultures actively prefer to "write" with the funny animal sprites the Aztecs used than with the Maya's wacky complicated glyphs, which is why Teotihuacan never adopted the Maya script despite definitely being aware of it, why the Zapotecs seemingly abandoned their own Maya-like script, and why the postclassic Maya were becoming more central mexicanized than the other way around.
>>18586291I literally mentioned the Five Suns myth in that post you retard lol. In the same myth, the god of darkness Tezcatlipoca and the gods of rain and water Tlaloc and Chalchiuhtlicue are also the first, third and fourth suns respectively, yet you don't see anybody calling those sun gods. It's a peripheral, insignificant aspect of their beings, because the whole fucking point of the myth is telling the audience that none of those are sun gods in the presentAnd besides, you do realize that the Aztec interpretation of those gods was quite recent right? In his earliest forms, the plumed serpent deity was just an elemental totem animal associated primarily with war, so trying to assign conspiracy theories that take place in the deep past to the Aztec version of the deity is quite stupid, but that's expected of somebody using AI like that kek
>>18586315thousands of years of drift from one primary source, the threads connect back to one root wherever the reverberations have persisted down through the aeons into this modern world
>>18586320Ok, but how do you make sense of the 4 other sun gods? Are they Egyptian in origin too? And if that's the case, how come the plumed serpent did not become a proper deity until the 3rd century AD? And how come it didn't become an anthropomorphic god of priests until the middle ages? Shouldn't it have been the other way around?See this shit, the type of person that you are speaks so confidently about shit you know nothing about, it's just fucking hilarious lol
>>18586333making sense of the gods... the first step is the realization that there is only one God, and that the fall precipitated by one was carried out by many that planted their tree across diverse lands
>>18586333And for that matter, why are you even trying to link it to that specific Egyptian deity...which was 1. a godDESS and 2. not even that big of a deal? Just because they're both snakes with feathers? But the Mesoamerican plumed serpent wings, and the Aztec god of priests was rarely ever depicted as a literal snake...
>>18586339All that picture proves is the shocking revelation that there are trees everywhere on earth lol
>>18586352this is a "tree"
>>18586357That is not in the picture you posted lol
>>18586360neither was this
Imagine… if only those christcucks didn’t stop us from doing cannibalism and human sacrifices, I wouldn’t be a bean-based lifeform emptying my trash bin out the window every day, fucking my hot seeester and suffering from diarrhea 350 days a year. We’d be… just like Japan…
>>18585503Not equally at all times. Some kingdoms had those things like the certain Mayans who later collapsed in the 900s and regressed into depopulated regions. Most kingdoms had no metalworking some did. Some practiced mathematics and astronomy while others didn’t while others who did practice and develop those things left no good records and then collapsed as civilizations so the knowledge stopped being practiced. India had mathematics agriculture and architecture too but it ended up being different in modern times. And with the astronomy and mathmetics it was usually a few intelligent people hired by the state to do these things when those civilizations had many millions of people For a nation to reach Japan levels of development is rare probably because they had stability and growth as kingdoms for millenia as singular cultures and became urbanized mercantile and later industrial nations with intelligent populations. Mesoamerica and Andean civilizations kept collapsing after a few centuries and resetting to zero before new groups replaced them.
>>18586499>Mesoamerica and Andean civilizations kept collapsing after a few centuries and resetting to zero before new groups replaced them.Thats the history of humanity, have you studied geography? A natural disaster that causes famine happens every 120 years or so. Its pretty clear you havent studied anything, your methods and conclusions tell me so.
>>18586499None of what you said is correct, it didn't work like at all. They did not "reset to zero" and they did leave records. Even the most famous Mesoamerican collapse, that of the Maya in the late Classic period, did not get anywhere close to being that apocalyptic. There was never any point where a Mesoamerican society "forgot" any of that, and in the 16th century they were all more technologically advanced than they had been a thousand years prior.The Classic Maya for instance might have built monuments that we consider objectively more impressive, but they completely lacked metalworking, something that their "post-collapse" counterparts did have, in addition to things like astronomy, writing, living in cities, building pyramids, etc.
>>18586520So the post Mayan collapse kingdoms of central Guatemala were at the same level as the pre collapse kingdom like Tikal and kalakmul? And yours saying that it didn’t go to zero, but what happened to the teotihuacani for them to have gotten replaced by the nahuas. There had to have been an immense collapse and replacement for the language ethnic displacement to have happened.
>>18583317> 150 million,No panchito,150 million Indians were not murdered. That’s three times the population of England today. Guess what you’d find if they all died? Villages, cities, records, bodies. >you don’t understand senõr, the christcucks destroyed the cities, burned the records, and made us short, brown and retarded!People shit on Indians a lot here, but I honestly think 80% of the truly braindead posts come from sudacas.
>>18586742not even him but you're a fucking spicniard moor rapebaby lol your country's posts are atrocious
>>18586339>>18586340>>18586352>>18586357>>18586360>>18586381>snakes and trees are everywhere on earthSHOCKING REVALATION!>b-but muh winged/feathered/flying serpents!everywhere snakes live there are birds who pick them up and fly away with them.Go outside nigga
>>18586427They became advanced and intelligent beyond Japan/Western civilization.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc4hggluIoM
>>18581796>>18581796>Which country would they resemble more, Japan or India?Panchito shitholes like Peru and Bolivia
>>18587301https://youtu.be/iqu132vTl5Y?is=qkU-9-Og7V2wnBYo
>>18587511>random music videotake your meds schizo
>>18587301nigga half of those posts are agreeing with you
>>18586533>So the post Mayan collapse kingdoms of central Guatemala were at the same level as the pre collapse kingdom like Tikal and kalakmul? Their populations weren't as big and they didn't build their quite pyramids as big, but other than that probably yeah. Like i said, they had metallurgy and the bow & arrow, which the classic Maya completely lacked, so if anything they were objectively superior technologically.>And yours saying that it didn’t go to zero, but what happened to the teotihuacani for them to have gotten replaced by the nahuas. There had to have been an immense collapse and replacement for the language ethnic displacement to have happened.That's the worst possible example you could possibly pick since the post-Teotihuacan population of Central Mexico was still evidently living in pyramids, practicing agriculture and even worshipping most of the same gods found at Teotihuacan, which they then continued to do until Spanish contact. Ethnic displacement and absorption does not at all imply a complete technological and cultural reset.
>>18587519>random
>>18582392based
>>18588407technically not precolumbian
>>18585668Why? Most modern cities would turn into ruins without a few decades of proper maintenance.
>>18584833The mesoamericans were a very exquisite culture but as at least one other anon had pointed out they were on the decline. The entire pre-history of the americas prior to colonialism is that you would have big advanced civilazations rise then collapse for various reasons (disease, drought, famine, etc). Teotihucan was such a city that was not built by the Aztecs but had been long abandoned by the time they found it and served as inspiration for them.For whatever reason without influence of some kind from the outside world there is nothing to suggest that they ever would have broken that cycle if the europeans had never found them. Eventually I think they would have but it would be a very very long time. You also have to realize that Europeans didnt have the technology they had simply by developing it isolation. They had it thanks to trade routes through the middle east to the east and same goes for all of those cultures as well.
>>18589472>they had it thanks to trade routesWhat's the obsession with taking away credit from the people? The most that can be said about outside influence in Europe with respect to intellectual achievements was the Arab preservation of Ancient Greek works, and the spread of Indian numerals through the Middle East into Europe. But those of you obsessed with diminishing European achievement will just point to an ethereal "trade and exchange of ideas", practically globalization before globalization. Yeah, I'm sure that's why Newton and Leibiniz independently developed calculus. Or why Beethoven wrote his symphonies. The thesis implied by your wording " thanks to", is also immediately refuted because even these ethereal "trade and exchange of ideas" were not unidirectional; the Asians, Arabs etc. also had them, and yet that is not where the overwhelming majority of inventions, discoveries, etc. were made.
>>18589472>The entire pre-history of the americas prior to colonialism is that you would have big advanced civilazations rise then collapse for various reasons (disease, drought, famine, etc). Why the actual FUCK do some retards keep parroting this shit about precolumbian civilizations as if the same shit didn't happen in the old world?
>>18589509Because they have a weird and warped vision of Europe... they see it as a block when its not really like that, the french have a very particular perception of their origins just like the german do. Its like saying "Africa" or "india" without really recognizing the intricacies of what we call Africa and india and what they really are.
>>18589506>Arab preservation of Ancient Greek worksWrong, that would be the Byzantines who preserved all surviving Ancient Greek writings
>>18581867>DEMONICAL CULTSBut enough about Christianity
>>18589472Pointing out reality isn't an obsession. Leibnitz and Beethoven aren't doing shit without Mesopotamians giving Europeans writing.That is seems excessive is only because it's mainly pushback against people who try to use early modern European technological achievements as proof of European racial superiority
>>18589472That's literally everywhere on earth, retard. A single polity collapsing is not some civilization-resetting calamity, hell not even multiple polities collapsing at the same time gets close to that, before you bring up the Maya.When Teotihuacan fell, the people around them didn't revert back into hunter-gatherers until the Aztecs came around, looked at some ruins and decided to try that out again. When Teotihuacan fell, the multiple other kingdoms centered around cities that existed all over the region and its inhabitants moved in to fill the vacuum the old hegemon left behind. "Civilization" did not ever collapse, it continued on just fine until the spanish arrived. What collapsed then was a state, one among many.>>18589509A mixture of widespread historical false narratives, the way those narratives are conveyed, and an unwillingness to look past them. Everybody knows the story of the Maya collapse, and that guy probably read somewhere that Teotihuacan is actually not an Aztec city and that it was abandoned long before they came around. Mix that up with the tendency to overly focus on a handful of specific societies, which gives off the impression that those were the only ones in existence, and the natural human drive to categorize everything in neat clearly defined boxes, and you're left with the assumption that first there was the Olmec, and then there were the Maya & Teotihuacan, and after that the Toltecs & the Aztecs, with nothing in-between or outside them. And in the end, you get the the idea that they were trapped some vicious cycle of apocalyptic decline, and not simply just the natural phenomenon of polities rising and falling like everywhere else in the world.
>>18583080>but then again most common knowledge about Mesoamericans is nonsensical myths in generalThere are still people on academia who genuinely believe the Toltec Empire existed. Most of what we know about Mesoamerica is unfortunately just circular reasoning built on the top of false assumptions made by 19th century archeologists.
>>18589530>that would be the Byzantines who preserved all surviving Ancient Greek writingsLol lmfao even
>Mesoamerican civilization was in declineWHERE THE FUCK DID THIS RETARDED MYTH COME FROM? WHERE DO PEOPLE KEEP HEARING THIS!? Nothing like the Aztec empire had ever existed before in Mesoamerica, not even close, other than MAYBE Teotihuacan but people can't even agree if that state was an empire or not. Mesoamerican civilization was absolutely at its peak
>>18589506>>18589565>>18589592well damn I didnt think people would spaz out so hard. I wasnt trying to undercut the Spanish or Europeans in anyway. I was just pointing out that mesoamerica was cut off from the rest of the world which had been had been exchanging and building on ideas for thousands of years (from west to east, east to west, and wherever else).This anon >>18584833 asked if mesoamerica was close to doing those things on their own and I answered truthfully, which was no.This anon >>18585170 tells the truth. Mesoamerica without contact would have just continued as they were till they eventually recieved contact from someone else.
>>18585668>I still don't understand how their cities basically disappeared in a couple of centuriesare you talking about cities that disappeared before contact or after? other anons talked about how post contact cities had their resources converted but pre contact cities like the Mississippi valley culture would just get over grown by nature to a point their temples would just be grassy knolls. Any wooden structures would just leave imprints (post holes for example) just as you would find in any other ancient dig site. Even stone structures get worn down by the elements and if people are around that wears them down even faster.
>>18589673Well then you're even more wrong. Mesoamerica wasn't stagnant by any stretch of the imagination as they weren't cut off from the rest of the Americas, which did supply them with outside influence and new technologies. For example, by the time the Spanish came around, they had copper and limited bronze metallurgy, which spread to the region from South America, and the bow & arrow, which came there all the way from the Arctic. They also had local innovations like the stoneworking techniques that made things like the macuahuitl possible.And your reply doesn't evem recognize the fact that as i told you, your assumption on how Mesoamerican societies worked is fundamentally false.
>>18589623"The Aztec Empire and Inca Empires were already in decline when the Spanish showed up" is a commonly peddled explanation in many internet history communities meant to explain why they were supposedly conquered so easily, together with "they only fought to capture not to kill" and "it was basically an epic slave revolt". And it doesn't help that in such communities the Aztecs are usually described as mongol-esque barbarian civilization usurpers whose only drive in existence was war, so people don't exactly picture them building much in the first place
>>18589613Inbreeding status?
>>18589691I think you miss the point. If they had been in contact with the rest of the world sooner do you not think that they wouldnt have progressed faster? They did amazing things on their own no doubt but there is nothing suggesting that they had the incentive to further it to the point that the old world had at the speed OP and other anon's are suggesting.
>>18589623>Nothing like the Aztec empire had ever existed before in Mesoamerica, not even close, other than MAYBE Teotihuacan but people can't even agree if that state was an empire or not.anon there were tons of cultures and civs in the americas that were just like the aztecs that would boom then bust. You have the mississippi valley culture, various cultures in the southwest of the US, tons of different cultures like Teotihucaun and the Olmecs in the yucatan, then the Maya were way past their prime when the Europeans arrived.anons like >>18589706 are retarded because they are ignoring well documented facts like how the Aztecs built up an empire, hit a crisis, then were desperately doing all kinds of sacrifices hoping it would appease the gods or whateve which is when the Spanish showed up. For the longest time antrhopoligists thought the Spanish were embellishing or exagerating the things they had seen and found out about the Aztecs not realizing that a lot of it was true, not because the Aztecs were evil or blood thirsty, just desperate. agrarian societies all of the world have fallen into this loop its not unique to mesoamerica just very prominent.
>>18589691>and the bow & arrow, which came there all the way from the Arctic?
>>18589741See >>18589592. A polity collapsing is not civilization collapsing.>hit a crisisThere was no crisis. When the Spanish came around, the Aztec Empire was ascendant in every way. They were the region's undisputed hegemons, their last remaining regional rivals were either on their way out or distant and faltering, and the last ecological crisis they faced was a crisis several decades prior.>then were desperately doing all kinds of sacrifices hoping it would appease the gods or whateveFirst of all, Human Sacrifice in Mesoanerica was universal and constant, they always did it all the time.Second of all, the Aztec brand of sacrifice was closely tied to the strategy they adopted for their expansionism, not an attempt to stem a crisis of any sort. They may have intensified the sacrifices dedicated to one specific rain deity in the aforementioned drought, but that happened after their empire began together with its infamous sacrifices and way before the Spanish ever showed up.Again, you are spouting nonsense based on hearsay rather than reality.
>>18589757The Bow and Arrow in the Americas originated in Northern North America and then spread southwards. Its foreign nature is even detectable in the cultures of the civilizations of Mesoamerica and the Andes, both of which considered bows to be lesser barbarian weapons associated with the nearby desert and jungle tribesmen, as opposed to the atlatl and the sling, which they held in high regard as the civilized man's ranged weapons of choice.
>>18589741>anon there were tons of cultures and civs in the americas that were just like the aztecs that would boom then bustOh really? Which of those controlled giant empires of 2-5 hundred urban settlements spanning tons of different cultures and language groups, all organized by a giant workforce of administrators and scribes? Which of them had a giant floating city with over 100,000 people living in it, public education and social works programs, an efficient legal system, hundreds of miles of aqueducts, one of the largest markets on earth, etc? None of them were remotely similar to the Aztec empire, and most of those didn't "bust" they just turned into other things. >the Olmecs in the YucatanThe Olmecs did not live in the Yucatan you ignorant fucking retard>the Maya were way past their prime when the Europeans arrived.People keep saying this but they're never able to decently explain how>well documented facts like how the Aztecs built up an empire, hit a crisis, then were desperately doing all kinds of sacrifices hoping it would appease the gods or whateve which is when the Spanish showed upSurely you can easily share these facts and elaborate on this totally real situation that you didn't just make upI'm so sick of these dunning kruger effect retards jesus christ. There is no shame in just KEEPING YOUR FUCKING MOUTH SHUT about a subject if you don't know anything about it
>>18589766>A polity collapsing is not civilization collapsing.Then explain teotihuacan and all the other pre aztec ruins. You're right in that if the spanish had no arrived MAYBE that would not have happened to the Aztecs, or maybe it would have way later. The fact is we will never know but based off of evidence and what we do know it seems like that was going to happen regardless.Also my point about the sacrifices wasnt that they suddenly started doing it but that they really ramped it up. What would be annual sacrifices of ten or a hundred people became monthly sacrifices of thousands to a point they were hemorraging so much they need blood from elsewhere. They even got more bizarre with some of the sacrifices because what they used to do wasnt working.
>>18589781>Then explain teotihuacan and all the other pre aztec ruins.People were living there, then they stopped living there and moved somewhere else. Do you think Gary Indiana is a lost civilization too?>The fact is we will never know but based off of evidence and what we do know it seems like that was going to happen regardless.City abandonment happens everywhere in the world you just don't know that because you are ignorant and uneducated.>Also my point about the sacrifices wasnt that they suddenly started doing it but that they really ramped it up. What would be annual sacrifices of ten or a hundred people became monthly sacrifices of thousands to a point they were hemorraging so much they need blood from elsewhereSacrifices ramped up because the people who get sacrificed are war captives and there were more wars as they conquered more, because that's how empires work.You're embarrassing yourself.
The largest material barrier to development in Mesoamerica is the lack of consistent resources, most importantly water. The "bust cycles" and "mystery" of Mayan "disappearance" are all related to the simple fact Mesoamerica had rather inconsistent access to fresh water and this led to deurbanization when necessary. In wet conditions this would make urbanization very easy (build next to cenote), in dry conditions it would destroy all urban development made. Anons in thread are arguing over whether Aztecs were in some sort of crisis but even if Aztecs made tributary of the entire region + North America, they would hit this deurbanization wall eventually. I do believe Aztecs were different enough to survive this as a political entity, but the material reality would still affect them. If not the Spaniards, someone would challenge their political structure and find many allies against the Aztecs. I would be interested in learning more about what this sort of crisis this could entail since a 50-year cycle is really crazy even for pre-Columbian MesoamericaRegardless, no amount of "earlier contact" or "later contact" or any other althistory play would really change the problems that made Mesoamerica the way it was. Mesoamerica had effectively been locked in this scenario for thousands of years and likely would not have changed in any meaningful way up to present, they did have very advanced water infrastructure, but even in modern times this region faces severe water-security issues. Anyone thinking the Aztecs were different enough to change this are probably coping for being brown by trying to develop their own Aryan myth
>>18589781>Then explain teotihuacan and all the other pre aztec ruinsCities sometimes get abandoned if shit goes south for them and nobody feels they're worth resettlement. Like i said in that post, when Teotihuacan got abandoned the people didn't revert into cavemen, they immediately moved to other cities or founded new ones.If you're asking why there's seemingly so many of them, it's a matter of survivorship bias. As explained in >>18585959, if a place was inhabited when the Spanish came around, it was likely to be rebuilt into a colonial settlement, something that they obviously didn't do to ruins. It's not that there's some sort of curse that eventually makes every Mesoamerican city collapse, it's because the cities that collapsed were more likely to make it to the modern day as ruins that can serve as archaeological sites and tourist attractions. The entire metropolitan area of Mexico City famously covers what was once Tenochtitlan and dozens of other Nahua city-states. The modern mexican cities of Merida, Campeche, and Champoton were all once major postclassic Maya cities, hence the illusion that the Classic Maya had all the huge cities while the postclassic ones only built occasionally and in small scale.
>>18589791>I would be interested in learning more about what this sort of crisis this could entail since a 50-year cycle is really crazy even for pre-Columbian Mesoamerica
>>18589781>>18589792Oh and i forgot to address this >Also my point about the sacrifices wasnt that they suddenly started doing it but that they really ramped it up.Like i said, the Aztecs ramped up sacrifices, in general, because of their expansionism and the way their military and hegemony worked. Warriors captured a lot of captives because it gave them prestige and opportunities for social ascension, and the government welcomed those captives because then their sacrifice could be used for intimidation purposes and as a demonstration of power.Beyond the drought case i mentioned, i don't know of any archaeological evidence of Mesoamerican societies ramping up sacrifices in times of crisis.
