Why do people see Native Americans as nomadic hunter-gatherers when both the Eastern and Southwestern US had agricultural town based societies? The former has a long history of Moundbuilder cultures with huge earthen pyramids and defensive wooden structures and residences, and the latter had adobe, stone etc towns and homes built into cliff faces and in large combined compoundsI know part of it is that by the time British, French, and American colonists started to really show up, most of the town building groups had collapsed. But why aren't they taught about and discussed more now? Their settlements were at least as impressive as Goth, Gaul, Celtic ones, with the eastern Moundbuilders having (at least superficially) similar earthenworks, palisades etc and people like those Indo-European towns and forts
>>18602444The most influential stereotype of native americans come from the wild west era, ie the mid/late 1800s and in western America where most natives were migratory.It’s like popular depictions of knights in shining armor but we stereotypically depict them wearing armor near the end of the middle ages which doesn’t depict what knights wore through the whole middle ages, with age and region, it differs.
The same applies to parts of pre-Roman Europe, pre-colonial sub-Saharan Africa, and the Caribbean islands: if there was no empire like the Roman or Inca in the region, it is assumed that everyone there was a savage.
FYI to anons since you may not be aware, but Chaco Canyon, the most densely settled/ruin-littered part of the Pre-Columbian Southwest US, if not the whole country, and is home to ruins of massive structures like Pueblo Bonito (see pic), is threatened by a proposal to get rid of or half the 10 mile buffer zone around the protected national park areaThat 10 mile buffer may not seem necessary, but as this: https://www.kjzz.org/tribal-natural-resources/2026-07-23/in-search-of-oil-and-gas-trump-could-axe-biden-era-buffer-around-chaco-canyon#:~:text=What%E2%80%99s%20left%20untouched,cataloguing%204%2C200%20sites. article mentions, even just a survey of 15% of the buffer found 4200 archeological remains, and the full buffer zone is estimated to contain as many as 25,000 notable remainsThis: https://www.archaeologysouthwest.org/2019/12/17/why-protect-a-10-mile-zone-around-chaco-culture-national-historic-park/ is also an article from an archeologist from years ago explaining the importance of the bufferThe public comment period to leave your thoughts on the proposal actually ends either tonight when it becomes the 29th, or like 36 hours from now when it becomes the 30th, I'm not sure which. You can do that here: https://www.archaeologysouthwest.org/2019/12/17/why-protect-a-10-mile-zone-around-chaco-culture-national-historic-park/ by clicking the "PARTICPATE NOW" buttonFor more info about Chaco, see here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB6AUYr6Ecs (You may also want to see his Basketmaker and Hohokam videos, which are also in the SW, the former being the predecessors to major sites at Chaco)https://www.chacoarchive.org/cra/https://www.archaeologysouthwest.org/https://www.chaco3d.com/
>>18602778Looks pretty cool, are those two enclosures at the front some sort of a religious thing?
>>18602444huh, did not know about that, neat. earthenworks have way more sovl than rocks and bricks
>>18602778Kek, miggers really are willing to fuck up their entire country so the bank account of their jewish masters grows by 0.0001%
>>18602444Two reasons:1. A lot of natives WERE hunter gatherers. Ironically, European contact encouraged some to specialize even more in hunting, because Europeans wanted pelts, not corn to trade.2. Lack of cool massive stone buildings like in mesoamerica.3. Eurocentric dumbfuckery.
>>18602961 (me)Fuck I can't count.
>>18602444The real question is why are you pretending like the Missisipian culture is esoteric knowledge? This has to only be true for boomers at this point, every podcast/history youtube watching zoomer has to have some idea about this by now.
>it's another Mississippian culture threadwhy don't you ever simply acknowledge or study the original mound building tradition of thousands of years which came long before them, the advent of the bow and arrow, and maize agriculture
>>18602778>>18602778I'll dump more renders and reconstructions of stuff at Chaco to draw attention to the proposal and the public comment period>>18602806The rectangluar walled areas that look like they have dirt/earth on them, or the circular structures within Pueblo Bonito's enclosed area? I'm honestly not sure what the former are, but the latter are called Kivas, the small ones are apparently for domestic activities but the big ones were for ceremonies. Keep in mind tho I'm not an expert and am just going off of some of the shit I linked and even then I'm not checking every single site>>18602993Anon, re-read the OP postIt's a general moundbuilder AND oasisamerican culture thread>>18602981You overestimate the average person
>>18603028>You overestimate the average personNo I don't think I do, who are these young people who have no clue about the mississippian culture?
>>18602778>>18603028Amerigolems are subhuman goycattle
>>18602444Because literally everything related to native americans is obscured for obvious reasons
>>18602778>>18603028Do you have any reconstructions like this of the other great pueblo houses?>>18603053Like, can you zip the constituent images of this?
>>18602778>>18603028>>18603128It's bigImagine this being an ancient structure in your country and the feds want to remove protections for the largely unsurveyed area around it that is already known to have archeological remainsThis should be as critical to US national identity as the Lincoln memorial and the Washington Monumentget those public comments in before tonight if you care
>>18602961>>18602963God I love /his/
>>18603028>huge earthen pyramids and defensive wooden structures and residencesnope, it's conflating the ancient mound building tradition with the relatively recent Mississippianslike every single thread I've seen on this board which even begins to touch on the issueI like the fantastically old shell mound burials, personally.But nobody else here is willing to talk about them.I tried making threads a long time ago on them.But nobody cares and simply ignored them, so I figured there was no real point.Have Cahokia thread number 50 then.
>>18603333I'm not sure if you're trying to say the Mississippians didn't build mounds, or that the hopewell, adena, and poverty point didn't have wooden structuresEither way you are incorrectAnd yes the Calusa are cool too
>at least as impressive as Goth, Gaul, Celtic onesI think OP is missing the point here.That is not what makes them impressive to me.Intensive agriculture sucks. It's good for animal feed, not so much for people.I prefer people like Poverty Point culture, who managed to produce enormous mounds over centuries without shitty agriculture at all, or draft animals.It's a far more interesting problem once you realize they defy classical expectations of hunter gatherers and demonstrate the social stratification required for monument building without the corn feed slaving everyone expects to see based on old world norms.They're the really impressive ones to me, because they're doing all that just based on hunting, fishing, and limited cultivation of naturally occurring plants.It's not supposed to be possible.
>>18603345The Windover archaeological site is fucking insane.It astonishes me that nobody ever talks about them.FFS, they had advanced textiles.Anyways, not so many mounds so not entirely relevant but you did mention Florida.I get the same feeling about the Red Ochre culture and Maritime Archaic, nobody wants to broach this topic and it's strange because they're almost certainly at the very beginning of this mound building tradition which spread so far and wide.
>>18602444>as a long history of Moundbuilder culturescan we see it?>no...why?>we made it up to make them look less like stone age primitivist
>>18603391>can we see it?Yes, here's a LIDAR scan of the center of Cahokia in pic related. These videos also include photos of and details about the excavation process at Cahokia, Poverty Point, and other Moundbuilder sites:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iciOvaIm51Mhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kwXmjEbav8You can also just google photos:https://i.natgeofe.com/n/0a3e7c85-a9db-47c5-afc0-32f578c8f4e7/NationalGeographic_1361280_16x9.jpghttps://jqjacobs.net/archaeo/images/cahokia_mounds.jpghttps://jqjacobs.net/geodesy/images/cahokia_latitude.jpg
>>18603446Just going to leave this PBS Nova documentary here.Last time I boosted this particular production here, the channel which hosted it saw more than 200,000 views on this video in the course of a few months to a year (don't quite remember, it was almost 8 years ago now) where before it only had a couple thousand or so, and then the entire channel (which was filled with obscure documentaries and a great educational resource) was entirely removed for basically no reason. It was called "nowhere man" if I remember correctly.Thankfully, other people have subsequently re-uploaded it and that's good because the only other instance of it available had very poor audio quality.In short, some of the dates in this documentary are themselves now actually out of date, and what's more it's been discovered that the history of mound building in NA actually goes back 10,000 years.
>>18603485here are the receiptsLSU mounds being the oldest known manmade structures anywhere in the Americas as a wholehttps://www.lsu.edu/mediacenter/news/2022/08/19gg_ellwood_lsucampusmounds.phpPBS Nova documentary on topichttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQwvgOiNu_s
>>18603306The reason this survives is because it's out in the middle of a fuck you desert where nobody originally wanted to develop. Guess that changed.There are so many examples of other places which existed in the east which were totally obliterated. Many of those cities are built on top of them.Deep rabbit hole goes deep. Very sad, it's hard to find information on a lot of it because fringe. To this very day, big mounds are simply leveled to make room for shopping centers and parking lots.You might think there would be a law against it considering how few survive compared to what was before. But there is not, because people do not know, care, or care to know.Lots of people are quick to write them off, because they're inconvenient.Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I was aware of the recent forfeit of public lands for logging and other things already.
>>18602778there is no participate now button
>>18602444>Why do people see Native Americans as nomadic hunter-gatherersBecause the plains Indians were the ones who lasted the longest. Their strength and resilience is projected onto the rest of the injun population out of reverence, not malice.
>>18602778>>18603760Aw fuck, I copy-pasted the wrong link thereHere's the right one:https://eplanning.blm.gov/Project-Home/?id=D949F582-402D-F111-8341-001DD804183BBetter hurry up, it might be open only for another hour
>>18602444>Why do people see Native Americans as nomadic hunter-gatherers when both the Eastern and Southwestern US had agricultural town based societies?Because the town builders were the first to die off from European diseases do to their domestic lifestyles. It's literally just survivorship bias
>>18602444>by the time British, French, and American colonists started to really show up, most of the town building groups had collapsed.why?
>>18603782>>18604123>>18604126man the disease totally fucked the new worldweren't the plains indians also settled peoples in their past?
>>18604129>weren't the plains indians also settled peoples in their past?Some of them were, they regularly built and lived in semi-permanent villages. The hunters and scouts among them were the most likely to not get sick. Basically from the Native American's perspective, North America was a Mad Max tier post apocalyptic wasteland by the 18th century as villages and cities completely died out seemingly overnight leaving only the nomadic ones alive.
