I acknowledge that this topic can be approached in a multifaceted manner. Therefore, I will accept mythological, linguistic, archaeological, and historical sources. The technology of war vehicles and militarism would also be interesting to discuss here, as they fueled long-distance migrations and military dominance. From what I could gather, *koryos was also a fairly common phenomenon among Indo-European peoples. What do we know about this today?
>>18612547Based thread. there is a reconstruction of a Proto-Indo-European ritualistic practice they circled the sacred ground three times on sacred occasions. In O Táin, Cu Chulainn goes mad, attacking an entire army and circling it three times
>>18612547Koryos is well-accepted in academia. There is much compelling evidence. Apparently, a divine battle frenzy associated with it survived in various forms in descendant cultures, particularly in northern Europe From what I could read in some sources, they were cultic shock troops like the Norse berserkers and related to Indo-European migrations.I don't have my sources here, unfortunately :/
https://doi.org/10.3989/emerita.2007.v75.i2.195
>>18612553>>18612694>>18612553Very interesting, thank you guys
>>18612694Greeks weren't barbarians
features of Indo-European youthful war-bands>>18612694very relevant article, The absence of a term in italics catches my attention tho
Violence in CWC cultures
>>18612772
>>18612766I meant among the Italics*
>>18612694So there was a shared name for these groups of kids, is that right?>>18612772Do we have any information regarding Yamanaya or older steppe cultures, for example?
>>18612766>The absence of a term in italics catches my attention tho
>>18612796
>>18612798>>18612796I really didn't know that. There's so much information out there, it's a shame that all my pasts have been lost forever. I even had information on parallels between Persians and among Assyrian for example. I'll have to recover everything lol
>>18612803>all my pasts have been lost forever.Your posts? If we're talking about /his/ then they're on desuarchive.org
>>18612805Portfolios. I'm Italian and we have a very similar word for "folders" and "post," and my satanic keyboard keeps making various errors indefinitely
Regarding Assyria, when studying some royal inscriptions, there are some interesting peculiarities that *may* be related to the *kóryos phenomenon.This inscription: (see related photo) dates from the reign of Tukulti-Ninurta I (1233-1197 BC), between the years 1224 and 1219 BC. We have an account or eulogy of a battle between Tukulti-Ninurta I and Kashtaliash IV, king of Karduniash, which at the time was in dispute in Mesopotamia with Assyria and an involvement of the Hittites. Assyrian forces defeated Karduniash, and Kashtaliash IV was killed by the Assyrians, and his kingdom became a vassal of Assyria. But this is where things get very strange and curious.Tukulti-Ninurta I seems to be implying that they played a particularly important role, and the way it is written seems to suggest that they were different from ordinary Assyrian warriorsScholars argue that the idea of naked or nearly naked warriors is a cultural characteristic found particularly in Eurasia and indo-European societies of the Bronze Age and Iron Age.These warriors, if used correctly, could be very useful. See Roman Emperor Julian (360-363 CE) wherein he utilized a host of Germanic warriors in his war against the Sassanid empire. They removed their armor and clothing, wearing only large clubs and a small, curved, thin sword fastened to their bare waist. It is possible that these naked warriors were particularly effective in ritualized warfare in Gaul, apparently related to the koryos.
>>18612888But now the big question arises: what kind of people could they have been? I fear that this is impossible to say by traditional means, as we have no archaeological or linguistic evidence of any demonstrably neighboring Indo-European population in Assyria, but they could have been Mitanni. They were peoples with an elite or at least a significant Iranian substratum within their kingdom, and that is Mallory's conclusion. There was an influx of nobles or elites carrying war chariots and swords, coming from the steppes, These elites may have established themselves in governments in the Middle East, with their elite warrior caste called Maryanu.But unfortunately, there is no direct evidence to prove that they were in fact Mittani or that they possessed such shock troops, although it is plausible.The Greeks of the Bronze Age seem to have done this, and Homer's Iliad mentions examples of warriors removing their armor and clothing to engage in actual hand-to-hand combat, and this seems to be related to linguistics as he demonstrated>>18612694When the Mitanni kingdom fell under Hittite rule, many of the elite Mitanni warriors and their top instructors came to Assyria, so perhaps they were indeed Mitanni, thus further cementing their Indo-European identity. (Although many say they were a purely Hurrian kingdom with some Indo-Aryans serving as allies)thoughts???
>>18612898>>18612888>>18612798>>18612796Kino
>>18612888>>18612898Look how NO ONE can have their own history, Indians, Iranians, and now Semites, it all has to be "Indo-European," it always has to do with Indo-European. What is that? Academic egocentrism?
>>18612907meds now
>>18612907?? What does that have to do with my post, you big idiot? Nobody said the Assyrians were Indo-European.
>>18612888I think what would secure this as an example of the *koryos is a better description of how they emulated animals. The behavior associated with berserkers was that if wearing bearskin shirts or cloaks. At other times and places *koryos themed warbands would wear wolf skins. That and perhaps mention of the use of a psychoactive or stimulatory drug would help.
>>18612957I don't know how the absence of mention of hallucinogens exactly refutes any connection, firstly because we have Roman accounts of naked Celtic warriors without directly mentioning drug use, and this passage from Tukulti-Ninurta I is very straightforward and doesn't have many details, but besides the similarity, the way it is written seems to suggest that they were different from ordinary Assyrian warriors. And notice that, as in many Indo-European traditions, these Assyrian warriors were not wearing armor or anything of the sort, in addition to what appears to be a frenzied ritualistic war dance.
>>18613006
>>18612957It's not as if most texts that mention the Koryos from Greco-Roman sources cite all the characteristics of the Koryos I think these Assyrian warriors were Koryans or something like that.>>18612907SAAR
>>18613006I'm not saying the absence would refute the connection.
>>18613009Furthermore, it is important to pay attention to the Assyrian practice of recruiting prisoners. The Assyrians were famous for deporting and enlisting conquered peoples into their own army. It was common to take people from outside and use them as troops. And at the beginning of his reign, he campaigned and captured, according to his own inscriptions: "28,800 Hittites from beyond the Euphrates." Some of these Hittites/Indo-European prisoners were directly enlisted into his army. Speidel's hypothesis is plausible in this sense. And the name _ardani*_ is also important to consider. Tukulti-Ninurta calls these savage warriors _ardani_. But the word is ambiguous: It could be "sworn band" / "comrades-in-arms." This would fit with the idea of an Indo-European warband or -"Servants." Then _ardani_ would only be Hittite or Iranian prisoners of war serving as auxiliary troops.But what's most intriguing is the contrast: in the military context of the time, foreign mercenaries in the Near East had two ways to fight: As chariot drivers and As melee infantry. They chose to fight naked/without breastplates against the Babylonians, relying on speed and aggression instead of heavy defense. It was a cultural shock for Assyria. There is no definitive proof, but it is plausible that Tukulti-Ninurta took Indo-European prisoners – probably Hittites or Mittani (my opinion) or any other Indo-European group of mercenaries – and formed a "berserker" shock unit with them, as Julian did with the Germanic tribes. The term _ardani_ and the custom of discarding armor would reinforce this foreign origin, because this did not exist in Assyrian/Mesopotamian tradition.
>>18613027I'm sorry for the misinterpretationBut anyway, some things I didn't mention in the previous post.>>18613043It's a shame that many of the inscriptions are fragmented and illegible.
>>18613009Interesting
some archaeological evidence that may be related to this.Krasnosamarskoe provides evidence of unique dog and wolf sacrifices in winter, between 1900 and 1700 BC these dog sacrifices suggest an initiation ritual directed at men, linked to Indo-European *Kóryos warrior traditions.
>>18613207https://www.academia.edu/40308710/Late_Bronze_Age_midwinter_dog_sacrifices_and_warrior_initiations_at_Krasnosamarskoe_Russia
>>18613207This kind of archaeology on the steppe is basically impossible now for a generation. The war in Ukraine is taking way too long and there's going to be mines in the ground all over the place. Early Indo-European archaeology died right after the genetics revolution.
>>18613233>Early Indo-European archaeology died right after the genetics revolutionWhat do you mean?
>>18612957>>18612888the substance "soma" was initially thought to have been a psychadelic by scholars the effects described in the the Vedas definately describe a stimulant with some hallucinogenic qualities. Maybe related??
>>18612929>>18612913refuting supremacists: 1.people in excited delirium do rip off their clothes and get crazy. 2. read the sabas berserkers in saga were a court poet's way of praising a rich guy in armor for beating the naked poor
>>18613261>refuting supremacists:"meds now" was not a reference to your estrogen supplement in the form of pregnant cow urine
From the book"Los Cántabros antes de Roma (The Cantabres before Rome)Unfortunately, this super interesting article is in Spanish, I couldn't find any English versions... Peralta says that festivals like the Zamarrones in Cantabria are survivals of ancient Indo-European rituals. Young men formed bands of "wolf" warriors to conquer lands. These initiation rituals with animal skins and ritualized violence were recorded in folklore, I'm not from Iberia to confirm this. if any anon from Iberia could comment and leave an opinion, that would be helpful.Today this appears as "Zamarrones" masked children in winter to ward off evil and werewolf legends in Portugal, lycanthropy in the Balkans. Basically, "beast-man" folklore memory of Indo-European warrior initiation.https://books.google.es/books?id=QB-a2H_8XQ4C&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=berserkers+georges+dumezil&source=bl&ots=W-JI7o-vKa&sig=oRmzRggsf0mvEUTnC3nOaXIR7k4&hl=es&sa=X&ei=STNWU_TNEOKn0QXrgoDQBQ&ved=0CIYBEOgBMAk#v=onepage&q=berserkers%20georges%20dumezil&f=false
>>18613304It makes you wonder how much of this *koryos stuff has been filed away and forgotten because it gets connected with goofy werewolf lore.
>>18613254Starting with Haak et al's provocatively titled "Mass migration from the steppe was a source for the Indo-European languages in Europe", geneticists decisively proved that a plurality of European DNA comes from steppe pastoralists, and except in Southern Europe it's a majority of their DNA.That paper came out in 2015. Before that, even the strongest proponents of the steppe as the Proto-Indo-European homeland believed the Indo-European languages only spread to Europe through elite dominance, where Indo-Europeans conquer the natives and force them to speak the rulers' language, and that there was not a mass migration of Indo-European families. The only places where elite dominance happened were Greece and Hittite, and even there they were 15% and 10% steppe in the Bronze Age. In modern England or Norway or Denmark, people are usually at least 40-50% steppe.This was only accepted by genetic proof, even though linguists, archaeologists, and historians had plenty of evidence to suggest that Europeans were steppe by blood - "native" terminology in European languages resembles that of other Indo-European languages in a way that does not indicate a native population was conquered and subjugated by a tiny elite.And in most cases, especially Britain, it is clear from the discontinuous change in settlement construction from causewayed encampment to roundhouses at the end of the Stone Age that the islands were invaded by whole tribes.It was taught all across Europe pre-WW2 that Europeans descended from people who came out of the steppe, and now the truth has returned.>>18613233Well the only thing Yamnaya left behind were their kurgans, that's what made them so special in the first place. They were the first people to master 100% mobile life in a way that wasn't retarded foraging. They drank horse milk, ate horse meat, road horses, horses pulled their wagons, they had no use for constructed settlements.
>>18613332I should have clarified. The abrupt change from causewayed encampment (the easiest settlement to invade ever, literally a campsite with pathways leading to the center saying "please come on in and attack me") to roundhouse was only in Britain.On the continent, there was a diversity of settlement styles but they were all swept away by the steppe juggernaut.
>>18613309Probably a lot.>>18613304One cool thing about Catholicism is that many of these myths were Christianized, or the main characters/gods were transformed into humans and Catholic saints, instead of simply erasing these myths from existence. The Church apparently didn't erase the old cult. The leader of the "wolf" gangs became a saint, the initiation rite became a saint's festival etc Young people wearing animal skins and bells to ward off evil became a popular Christian celebration. The Zamarrones do this today in the saint's name. Places like Germany were Catholic for many centuries, there's a lot of material in German, and it's beyond my abilities. I believe that, as happened in Spain and Ireland, these myths were also Christianized. If any Germanon could also speak up and contribute something, it would be very helpful.
>>18613309It's the other way around. Wolves and dogs have always been associated with death, usually guarding the underworld. This was probably because wolves and dogs would eat human corpses. The dogs people had raised to be affectionate and loyal hunting companions would eat their corpses when they died if the corpse wasn't secured, this was probably extremely traumatic and memorable.The idea is that the Dog of Death motif was already present in the Ancient North Eurasian hunter-gatherer lore, so connecting myths between the descendant ANE cultures - Indo-European and Native American - would lend it greater plausibility.
>>18613341It's quite possible that much material was actually lost after the Protestant Reformation in these places, because we wuz pagan n shiet. The Catholic Church adapted to local cultures, integrating traditions and transforming ancient gods into heroes or legendary humans see Eremon, he was reinterpreted by means of a Euhemerism. In the mythology rewritten by Christian monks, these medieval monks recorded Irish mythology, transforming gods (Tuatha Dé Danann) into sovereigns and mortal heroes to align local history with the Bible without erasing the roots of the people. Most of this nonsense about killing witches occurred in the Protestant era.
>>18613341The Germanic myths are by far the MOST representative of young male warband culture associated with wolves. The original comparative mythologists who came up with the idea were German, they were the ones to call it a warband (mannerbunde).It's all there: Odin leads a nocturnal male warrior fraternity who coat themselves in wolfskins and go berserk, most active in the winter, they live unrestrained by the normal social and legal sanctions of the tribe and antisocial conduct in faraway lands is permissible. In Valhalla, the heroes selected among fallen warriors battle each other and die every day in preparation for Ragnarok...Sigmund, the older uncle, initiates Sinfjötli into a wolf-outlaw lifestyle where they carry out illicit killings and raids, find enchanted wolfskins and howl like wolves, in preparation for their war against the king...It is the most complete account of koryos. The analysis of every other culture's koryos is arguably just finding connections to the German one.
>>18613369>>18613363I emphasize.Koryos is perhaps one of the best-studied Indo-European themes we have.
What about the absence of cognates inAnatolian languages???
>>18613369>>18613379You're completely talking out of your ass, injecting bullshit prot-cath flame war lies into this discussion. The Protestant Germans embraced and studiously recorded Germanic mythology. Praetorious and the Brothers Grimm were both Protestants. Jacob Grimm basically founded Germanic comparative mythology and he was responsible for Grimm's law in Indo-European linguistics. There's no evidence the Reformation resulted in any loss of pagan mythology. The pagan revival of Nazi Germany was strongest in the Lutheran regions. These myths were mostly saved in Iceland anyway 500 years before the reformation
>>18613394Shut up you idiot that's not even the topic of the thread, and that anon didn't even mention Christianity in his post. Don't go off-topic, and I repeat, don't go off-topic. It's undeniable that Catholics and monks preserved these myths... but that's not important to the thread. I repeat: this is off-topic.
>>18613394Nobody cares.
To continue the thread, some authors argue that the institution of the Männerbund played a fundamental role during Indo-European migrations and the spread of Indo-European languages.https://www.persee.fr/doc/dha_0755-7256_2003_num_29_2_1560
>>18613532
>>18613550>>18613532I can't read French
Is it true that the proto indo european men genocided all the native men in europe and took their women
>>18613550>>18613532The wiki specifically mentions the relationship between Koryos and Indo-European migrations, but I can't read the cited sources for a number of reasons.
>>18613043>28,800artificial numberthe other details of the story may be based on real history but the number is more like an ancient magic number
>>18613569There's a lot for us to deal with.there are various mythological, archaeological, and etymological things to study. It's a shame my folder was lost. I managed to gather several sources and made a PDF compilation, including some sources from your pic I used the Genesis library for some sources and some paid articles through a friend who had a subscription to these magazines.but both are inaccessible to me now, The Genesis library seems to be bugged, and I'm on my cell phone until I fix my damn notebook. On the subject, there's even a pararemo with dark colors like black used by these young warriors.As soon as I get a better cell phone and fix my laptop, I intend to create these PDF compilations, although to be fair my focus is more on archaeology. I'm working on one about the Andronovo material culture I've already gathered 20 articles and I'm also making some maps.
>>18613580just like your life>>18613582Believe me, nobody cares about that. Are you going to waste your time posting tons of articles only for people here to ignore you and go to a religious spam thread?>>18612547It's quite vague, to be fair. Young people make up the majority of the force in any army at any time, and using animals isn't unique to them.
>>18613582annas-archive
>>18613569How did aryans spread their culture in india and iran
Funny how people complain about Protestants destroying Indo-European mythological texts, no one pushes back on them, then I rightly call that out as a complete lie, and I get accused of "spam"I'm also the only one who's contributed anything substantially on-topic to this thread with my post about the Germanic Mannerbunde and my explanation of the origin of the Dogs of Death motif in ANE.
>>18613628Very carefully
>>18613774See here>>18613400Shut up you already lost
>>18612796>>18612694Kris Kershaw's the One Eyed God she talks about how Indian traditions have informed the reconstruction of the PIE koryos - in fact the best evidence of all comes from India.
>>18612957many ancient tribes or the founders of tribes take their names from wolves or dogs or are associated in some way with wolves or dogs because they descend from young men of the koryos.
>>18613582>On the subject, there's even a pararemo with dark colors like black used by these young warriors.What? Sources
>>18614538No>>18614583Also no
>>18613383
>>18613207
Interestingly, Thucydides says that among the early Greeks, piracy was seen as an honorable and common profession, practiced by both Greeks and barbarians.
Old but relevant sources indicate that the coming of age for evils in early historical Ireland was due to a transition from the Fían-chuire raiders to the domestic Tuáth (*teuteh2) Image quality is somewhat poor, sorry.)
>>18616007
>>18616009
>>18616011It's incredible how much Proto-Indo-European material Ireland has preserved
>>18616014The relationship between *kóryos* and *teuteh* has always seemed interesting to me; obviously, the separation between young nomadic warriors (fian) and married sedentary adults (túath) was not invented in Ireland. It reflects a much older tradition, based on age groups, that already existed in prehistoric Proto-Indo-European society. Fian were groups of landless young people, in contrast to the kinship-based social structure of the túath.
>>18616023Lastly, I don't know if this also occurs in other Indo-European branches, but in Ireland the Aire échta was a nobleman who commanded warriors tasked with avenging recent murders in allied territories. If they caused deaths during this period, the leader would pay and guarantee the group's safe return. And we have the Fer midbad, a young man in social transition, between the end of his upbringing (14 years old) and full adulthood (20 years old). He could rise in society or die trying.Very interesting
>>18616014No, they were matriarchal There's Intimations of a female kóryos in early Ireland
>>18616045Doesn't even make any sense
>>18616063Ireland has examples of women who 'became wolves' and entered a female kóryos-existence. Its also a female thing, not some secret male society
>>18616074Moids btfo our answer?
the only mythology that securely attests koryos is norse.
>>18617361Wrong
>>18617841thanks for the response
>>18619078Stop lying around
https://www.degruyterbrill.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783111718583-003/html
>>18619569
