None of the arguments for his existence have managed to persuade me.

>>18612860
Of I tell you that whenever you hear a trumpet you must jump twice and you hear trumpets but never jump twice, can you claim you believe in me? Would I ever believe you do?

>>18612866
this is what I don't get
if the atheist account of creation is true, there should be no life, only chaos
there should be no rationality, only confusion
there should be no beauty, only survival
but there are all of these things, and much more, yet the atheist still does not see; blinded by his own hubris and ego through the brainwashing of secular materialists for the price of gadgets and trinkets do they barter away their eternal life for an empty promise of ego and death

>>18612872
>Of I tell you that whenever you hear a trumpet you must jump twice and you hear trumpets but never jump twice, can you claim you believe in me?
Maybe. There's not enough context to say.

>>18612860
>its free
>but first you have to
then its not free
>>18612866
>my proof of good is the sun rising

>>18612903
Right, it's free. Jesus did all the work. I'm glad you understand.

>>18612877
>if the atheist account of creation is true, there should be no life, only chaos
Ironically it seems you lack the imagination lol

>>18612860
Both Christianity and Judaism look man-made and phony to me. I just don't buy it.

>free gift of salvation
If it was really free, then I wouldn't need to do anything to get it. Also salvation from what? God's punishment?

>>18612926
>If it was really free, then I wouldn't need to do anything to get it
Correct. You only need to receive it.
>Also salvation from what? God's punishment?
Correct.

>>18612946
Nta but it seems to me a bit dishonest to say you only need to receive it when in reality by "receive it" you mean "perform the action of psyopping yourself into believing a specific set of metaphysical propositions".

>>18612925
>Brooo the universe just happened to have the conditions and stability for life to just appear!
Lmaooooo

>>18612975
Adding a deity (the most complex thing imaginable) as an intermediary step makes it even less likely

>>18612975
>bro the ground of all being just happened to be a guy who wanted people to cut parts of their dicks off but then later changed his mind
...

>>18612946
Receiving it means subscribing to the claims of the new testament though?

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>>18612877
The ancient greeks took one look at chaos and were like, yup, it can do it.

>>18613008
Most of the religions that predate Yahwism had that concept of the creator god arising from the endless primordial sea of chaos. A spark of order randomly created from that bubbling sizzling sea and the universe arose from there.

I always liked that idea more than the "god was just always there" idea. It's probably closer to the materialistic truth while still being poetic.

>>18612994
>Receiving it means subscribing to the claims of the new testament though?
Yes it means trusting in Jesus' work on the cross for your salvation.

>>18613023
See it's not free then. I need to turn off my brain for it to work.

Can't he save me and everyone else without involving me suspending my disbelief?

>>18612860
I've been asking this OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT and OMNIPRESENT god to appear at my kitchen and talk to me at the cup of tea FOR YEARS. And yet, still no answer.
If the god is OMNIPOTENT, it would cost him ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to appear there and have a conversation with me. And yet he's not here, either because he's a coward, evil or doesn't exist.
If the god is OMNISCIENT, he would know about all of this, would know my whole life, what I've seen, what decisions I have made, make and will make under all circumstances, and that it'll only be to both of our benefit. And yet, he's not here.
If the god is OMNIPRESENT, then why can't he be present right there in my kitchen? Again, it would cost him NOTHING to materialize, sit on a chair and have a talk with me. And because he's OMNIPRESENT it won't stop him from any other business he might have, because he BY NATURE is everywhere. And yet, he's not here.

>>18613031
>See it's not free then. I need to turn off my brain for it to work.
No, you don't.
>Can't he save me and everyone else without involving me suspending my disbelief?
That's not how it works. Believing is how you receive it. It's easy, because it is true.
>>18613032
>I NEED the CEO of the company to appear to me on demand
>If he doesn't? Then there is no CEO.

>>18613040
Why does it work that way?

>>18612860
>free gift of "salvation" from the curse he placed on me because a man ate a fruit his wife and a talking snake gave him thousands of years before I was born
>if I don't accept this "free" gift by telepathically making a declaration that I am Jesus Christ's slave I will be eternally tortured by demons
Gee, thanks.

>>18613045
>free gift of "salvation" from the curse he placed on me because a man ate a fruit his wife and a talking snake gave him thousands of years before I was born
No, the curse is placed on you because of your own sins. If you didn't sin you wouldn't need a savior. But you do sin. A lot.
>if I don't accept this "free" gift by telepathically making a declaration that I am Jesus Christ's slave I will be eternally tortured by demons
1. You don't need to be a slave. It's free.
2. You will be tortured alongside demons, not by them. Have fun.
>>18613044
Because that's how God set it up.

>>18613053
>But you do sin. A lot.
And it's between me and God, and not some used car salesman who decided to make money by preaching to the retards.

>>18613053
I'm sorry anon, but it just looks like your religion came up with a crude scam in order to trick foolish people into joining it.
>join us and receive the best possible outcome (eternal life or heaven)
>fail to join us and receive the worst possible outcome (hell, eternal torture)
>source: trust me bro

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>>18613067
>I'm too SMART for salvation
Great. Enjoy burning.

>>18613067
Also, the mere existance of them not being burned alive by God for daring to speak in his name is more than a proof that he doesn't exist.

Fucker annihilated bloodlines for the less blasphemy than that.

>>18613071
>Great. Enjoy burning
You have a weird psychosexual obsession about seeing people get tortured. It's almost as if you don't give a fuck about God, you just want to jerk off at the thought of people burning lmao.

Pathetic.

>>18613040
Man is not OMNIPOTENT, he is limited by his physical abilities and capabilities. God isn't.
Man is not OMNISCIENT, he doesn't know whether someone wants him right there and right now and what would be the consequences for doing or not doing so. He doesn't know the thoughts, feelings and ambitions of others. God, if he existed, could.
Man is not OMNIPRESENT, he can't be infinitely divided and be everywhere at the same time. Man can only be at one place and in his body. Unlike god.
Again, I want to emphasize and I want this thought to linger your mind, IT WOULD COST GOD NOTHING TO APPEAR RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF ME. And yet, he's not here. He's either evil, because he, according to "if yu dont biliv in gad yu gou tu hel", wants me to be in Hell, DESPITE BEING ALL-LOVING; a coward, because he's afraid to show himself; or doesn't exist.

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>>18613080
>>18613074

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>>18613092

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>>18613092

>>18612984
>>18612987
If human minds could just emerge at random by that rationale what is preventing a divine mind from doing the same?
There is nothing preventing it besides you not wanting it to be the case, which is bad logic

>>18613105
No one is talking about "Yahweh". Your brain is worthless.
>>18613101
Enthymeme from incredulity.

>>18613106
We have observed life starting off simple and growing more complex over time via evolution. A fully formed deity (something we haven't actually ever observed) popping into existence out of nowhere seems less likely.

Either way we don't really know how the universe came to be, but some explanations appear more likely than others. Your certainty that an omnipotent omniscient god did it who also happens to be involved in the affairs of bronze age people in the levant seems like the least likely explanation. Or at least pretty far down the list.

>>18613111
At least learn the name of your god, lol

>>18613120
Jesus.

>>18613106
The more I interact with theists, the more I've come to realise much of their philosophical thought stems from the idea that there is this peculiar dichotomy regarding possibility - that is, either everything is the way it is because of a will that desires it to be that way, or else everything is randomly created by a metaphysical gacha machine that spawns random concepts into existence.
I wonder if this idea can be tracked to a particular thinker.

>>18613124
blasphemy. I hope you like it hot

>>18613053
>how god set it up
This makes no sense. An all powerful being goes out of his way to torture people for eternity because the all powerful being wanted to? Can’t it just, well, not? It makes sense if you think god is a sadistic control freak; the proverbial child psychopath burning ants with a lighter. Just if god isn’t a sadist, and is all powerful, hell doesn’t make sense.

>>18613146
>argument from incredulity
Next?

>>18613111
>incredulity
So true, I guess I should just believe everything ever said, even that Book of Mormon. And this Quran. And this post that says mixing bleach and vinegar will cure cancer.
You've yet to prove the positive claim that god exists. No, "THA BOOK!" is not a proof. I can write down that I can fly. Other cult leaders convinced many people of things no less ridiculous as God. But we can both agree that Heaven's Gate or Scientology aren't things that anyone should ever take seriously. No, "THA MIRAKOLS!" on TV are fake. If they were real, people wouldn't grift from them and didn't care about the money. No, the anecdotes are not a proof either. I can say that I saw a gargoyle turning into Hitler, eating exactly 508 babies and turning back into gargoyle. Does me saying something happened necessarily mean that it happened? No.

>>18613149
Well, what’s the point of an eternity of torture? There’s a reason for it, right? Since if the reason is ‘god did it for the lulz’ then god is a sadist. Which is a really unsettling conclusion.

>>18613152
>You've yet to prove the positive claim that god exists.
1. I already have proven that God exists.
2. A logical proof won't convince you. You clearly decided you hate Jesus for some reason.
3. The ministry of reconciliation is not one of debating and logical argument, but rather of preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. If that's not good enough for you, then by all means enjoy Hell. However, God COMMANDS you to repent and believe the gospel.

>>18613116
>We have observed life starting off simple and growing more complex over time via evolution
no we haven't, we've theorized that is the case based on fossils which is far from conclusive evidence
>A fully formed deity (something we haven't actually ever observed) popping into existence out of nowhere seems less likely.
no less likely than life doing the same
>Either way we don't really know how the universe came to be, but some explanations appear more likely than others
yes via math models it is much more likely that a law giver had to fine tune the universe than it happening due to random chance, which on average would have taken trillions of years
>>18613126
sorry but materialist metaphysics cannot account for why there are stable laws to the universe if everything is inert mindlessness
There are no observed cases where a law came into being out of chaos as all of the laws nature abides by pre-existed our measurements of them, therefor by your own standards you cannot claim that laws emerge from chaos as it has never been measured

>>18613153
Reflect on how stupid this logic is:
>God is a sadist.
>Therefore he doesn't exist.
Too, I'm not interested in debating God's existence or justifying his decisions.

>>18613160
I’m not really debating the existence of god. I don’t think you can disprove an intangible concept. I’m just trying to figure out what kind of being makes life so it can torment it. Just seems so pointless. Unless the suffering brings god pleasure.

>>18613169
Why is it so hard for you, personally, to accept God's free gift of salvation?

>>18613157
Given infinite time scales everything that is possible will happen eventually. It doesn't matter if it takes trillion or quadrillion of years.

>no less likely than life doing the same
A god is more complex than regular life. Especially one that is omniscient and omnipotent. So no, you are wrong.
Also I already gave you a possible explanation for something that is simple and therefore more likely becoming more complex via evolution.

>fossils
>not conclusive
Better than your no-evidence-at-all. You are also wrong though, because we can create an evolutionary tree from the genetic similarity between species. And that tree fits what we observe in the fossil record. That's two lines of evidence that support each other. Pretty conclusive.

>>18613176
>Given infinite time scales everything that is possible will happen eventually.
Let me guess: You don't have a bachelor's in math.

>>18613157
>sorry but materialist metaphysics cannot account for why there are stable laws to the universe if everything is inert mindlessness
You say that because you posit the dichotomy I mentioned.
>There are no observed cases where a law came into being out of chaos
See? You're invoking the metaphysical gacha machine again.

>>18613174
Just that. It’s like some eldritch cosmic horror story. If you get an answer wrong when the tentacle faced alien is deciding your fate, you go to the torment nexus. I wonder what it would be like to spend eternity in constant fear of displeasing the creature who commands reality and who you know is currently actively torturing your friends and family that answered wrong.

>>18613178
You have a mathematical prove to share with us?

>>18613183
>You say that because you posit the dichotomy I mentioned.
so what is the nuanced metaphysical position that allows for laws to be made without minds? If it is just objects emerging from chaos, why are there laws?

>>18613176
>Given infinite time scales everything that is possible will happen eventually
so then what is the condition which prevents a divine mind from being inevitable under this rule? What is the proof of it being impossible?

>>18613196
Like I said we don't know how the universe came to be.
A deity is just less likely than any of the simpler solution

>>18613155
>I already have proven that God exists.
I only read replies to my replies. Link yours where you epicly owned le heckin' preddit acmeists and if it's
>"THA BOOK!"
>"THA MIRAKOLS!"
>"IT JUST IS OKAY!?"
>anecdotes
Then I'm not taking it seriously.
>"JUST READ IT YOURSELF IN THE SEA OF TEXT DOOD!"
No, it's not worth it. Just as it was not worth it wasting my time asking god to appear in my kitchen and have a conversation with me, and since you have a memory of a fish I'll repeat it again, IT WOULD COST GOD NOTHING TO APPEAR RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF ME.
> A logical proof won't convince you
Because all the arguments were shit? What does it say about the claim then? If I say that bananas cause cancer and all I can't provide a convincing proof, then my claim is false. Is it because I said I want to have a conversation with god in the kitchen? Well, where is he then?
>You clearly decided you hate Jesus for some reason.
How would you know? Why are you assuming things? How can I hate someone who doesn't exist?
>The ministry of reconciliation is not one of debating and logical argument, but rather of preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ
And I can preach that trans rights are human rights, but it doesn't mean that I'm correct, does it? (before you slander me, I don't prech it, it's an example that we'll both disagree with)
>If that's not good enough for you, then by all means enjoy Hell
Just because I didn't worship someone who has no balls to appear at my kitchen and talk to me directly? Wow, what a narcissistic god he is! Imagine if I pointed a gun at my son and said 'IF YOU DON'T WORSHIP YOUR CREATOR, I'LL KILL YOU!!!". Even that'd be less cruel compared to eternal torture.
>God COMMANDS you to repent and believe the gospel.
Then let the god show up RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW! If not, then he's either a coward, evil or doesn't exist.

>>18613185
>You have a mathematical prove to share with us?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_diagonal_argument It's all yours, my friend.

>>18613200
>A deity is just less likely than any of the simpler solution
again, the fact that there are laws makes it more likely there is a law giver than them emerging from chaos; the law giver is the simpler solution

>>18613184
There's no fear because he already promised me eternal life, and he can't lie.

>>18612860
Personally, I know better than to believe gods write books with petty rules of behaviour

>>18613195
>so what is the nuanced metaphysical position that allows for laws to be made without minds?
First off, there's the question of what you even mean by "laws". (Or rather what kind of thing do you think is necessary to instantiate "regularity", I guess.)
Secondly (and I think your answer to the first question might motivate the answer to this second one), there's the question of why you posit that these laws must be "made".
>If it is just objects emerging from chaos
That's just the metaphysical gacha machine again.

>>18613209
He’s giving eternal life to the people he’s torturing too. Plus why can’t he lie? He is all powerful. He can change his own rules any time he wants. How would anyone even enjoy that life knowing people they love were suffering? Again, some real I have no mouth and I must scream type eldritch horror.

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>>18613203
>Link yours
No.
>Because all the arguments were shit?
No, because you have the very word of God at your fingertips and you still hate him. If the gospel doesn't convince you, neither will logic.
>How would you know?
Because of the way you write.
>How can I hate someone who doesn't exist?
You hate God because he does exist.
>And I can preach that trans rights are human rights, but it doesn't mean that I'm correct, does it?
Sure. My point is that I'm not interested in EPIC DEBVTE.
>Just because I didn't worship someone who has no balls to appear at my kitchen and talk to me directly?
Sure. Whatever your reason for rejecting Jesus, please do enjoy burning.
>Then let the god show up RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW!
I gave you Pastor Shelley's video. This is your chance. If you reject it, you might not get another one.
>>18613211
>Standing in judgment of God
Those flames just got hotter.

>>18613220
>Muh Hell
Muh meditation and stuff happens with divine energy in your chest that makes your larp the larp it is and my practice validated

>>18613217
>He’s giving eternal life to the people he’s torturing too.
No. Those people are dead.
>Plus why can’t he lie?
Because he said he can't.
>He is all powerful. He can change his own rules any time he wants.
Verse?
>How would anyone even enjoy that life knowing people they love were suffering? Again, some real I have no mouth and I must scream type eldritch horror.
1. They had their chance to believe while they were on this earth. They CHOSE to go to Hell despite what Jesus did for them.
2. God will perfect us in heaven so that we have the proper feelings for the trash he sent to the burn pit.
3. None of this is a reason not to believe in Jesus, by the way. You just don't like it.
>>18613224
>meditation and stuff
Yeah good idea, maybe if you get really good at it you'll have a tool to mitigate the mindblowing agony God will subject you to in Hell. Or you could just, you know, believe on Jesus.

>>18613215
oh fuck a post modernist someone kill me
Laws; the things that science measures
the things without which science cannot be done
the things without which theories cannot be made
the things without which a person becomes a puddle of skeptical confusion that cannot operate in the world
before I answer any more of your questions, I need you to make a positive assertion about the nature of the world, or else you are wasting my time with your undergrad routine of Socratic question mongering and I have no time for your games

>>18613225
I sm God, that's what meditation and the left Hand Path gave me.
And remember, I'll fuck you up in Hell

>>18613116
>We have observed life starting off simple and growing more complex over time via evolution
Thats not true, humanity has yet to be able to create life from nothing in a primordial soup in some lab. There is also something called the cambrian explosion which has no explanation to this day. Evolution is not as clear shut as it looks like. It still remains as a hypothesis. It might explain how organisms change over time. But it doesnt solve the full picture of how life originated from nothing.

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>>18613228

>>18613208
Few simple laws can emerge from chaos and as they play out many more complex laws can emerge. There is no need for a conscious mind in this.
And if there was a conscious law giver involved, that law giver did not need to be omniscient, omnipotent, involved in human lives etc.

>>18613232
We are the gnostics you hate
We killed your god
Have fun in Hell

>>18613234
>Few simple laws can emerge from chaos
proof?

>>18613231
I said simple, not from nothing. The theory of evolution works out pretty well starting from single celled organisms.
Where those came from we have not figured out yet.
The point is simple organisms can become more complex via evolution.

>>18613225
>those people are dead
Yet they’re still self aware and being tortured? How is that dead?
>he said he can’t
Are you telling me that god can’t alter his own rules? This is an all powerful being, and you know he is willing to visit atrocities by the bucket full. Of course such a being could redefine his own rules.
>they had their chance, god will lobotomize us so we don’t care about the people we loved, and I don’t like this
Yah. Isn’t that obvious? The people in hell got the wrong answer and so the omnipotent tyrant tormentor sent them to suffer. Clearly I don’t like him or that idea at all. The notion that he will destroy my ability to care about people I love is a great example of why this is so unnerving.

>>18613236
Proof that we killed your god:
The world is going to shit
Coronal ejections are multiplying
The trumpets wont stop:
https://youtu.be/_P4XOiMKLhk?si=DoEEr0ABOkGYtby-
Paranormal horrors manifest in reality:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/animals/a71151516/black-goo-new-species-discovery/

>>18613101
Christianity doesnt really make sense if you narrow it down to God throwing people into fire out of spite. Its such a childish understanding of christianity.

>>18613241
>Yet they’re still self aware and being tortured? How is that dead?
Correct. That's how the Bible defines death.
>>18613241
>Are you telling me that god can’t alter his own rules? This is an all powerful being, and you know he is willing to visit atrocities by the bucket full. Of course such a being could redefine his own rules.
Sorry, I asked for a verse from the King James Bible. Try again?
>blah blah blah I hate Jesus
I don't care. You're free to kill yourself and go to Hell whenever you like. Maybe now is a good time? Better than the alternative.

>>18613227
Laws in science are treated as descriptive models, not as abstract objects with causal powers. That's why I was asking. Science is agnostic when I comes to this stuff.
It could be that there really are these abstract objects, but it could also be that physical objects simply have a set of properties due to which they interact in specific ways. It could be that the whole of reality is an object with a set of properties that manifest as all the bullshit that constitutes it. It could be a bunch of different things.
The reason why I asked this question (and I even alluded to that in the post where I asked it) was that your answer likely motivates your claim that laws must be "made". With that in mind, I don't see why you're treating this as if I'm just leading you on at random. I've been straightforward with where I'm coming from.

>>18613247
>>18613227
>>18613215
This is off-topic. Please refer to the OP. Thanks!

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>>18613239

>>18613244
I’m just asking what prevents an all powerful being from doing what it wants. As far as I can tell, there’s nothing. A little while ago someone told me all I had to do to avoid hell was accept that god defines me as a sinner and accept Jesus as my lord and savior. After doing that I had hoped I’d stop being afraid. It really doesn’t work. I do think I might hate god, but I’m powerless against something that is so vast and cruel so I bent the metaphorical knee. I was sort of hoping I was misinterpreting this shit. Seems not though.

>>18613242
How silent, very eloquent

>>18613252
This conversation is over.

>>18613266
See >>18613242

>>18613247
You have a specific ontology of science that is not common in casual settings; most people take laws to mean binding rules of nature such as the law of gravity and so forth
If science is agnostic, why is it used as a means be so many to definitively claim unmeasurable phenomena to be impossible (science therefor no God!) when by their own admission there is no primary means by which to measure God
When we go then to secondary evidence:
the existence of conscious minds in a material universe where it is extremely unlikely (fine-tuning argument)
the fact human minds keep having divine experiences
the fact a man claimed to be the Son of God, delivering teachings that confounded all powers at that time, fulfilling ancient prophecies and overthrowing all pagan nations
the fact this universe seems to in fact be governed by laws despite the ability to be rhetorically skeptical about that (no one actually lives their lives being skeptical about gravity)
the fact God fearing societies out competed secular ones for survival
the fact that rationality is an activity we can participate in
the fact beauty exists when we are supposedly made for mere survival

It seems as though in the face of all these secondary mysteries on which measurements cannot be made, people proclaiming that science disproves God are making that claim with zero authority which science gives; it is pure skeptical rhetoric with no measurements to back it up
in b4
>that was never my claim
okay, then admit God is a possible being that exists in this universe

>>18613249
nah I don't like that chud in the video

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God created hell and only Christianity can save anyone from it, if you don't believe that then go ahead and move to any dark, hell-spawned demon infested hell hole and see how much you and your progeny enjoy what can be eternal torment.

>>18613266
Why? I explained why it’s so hard for me to accept salvation. I forced myself to accept it in the hope it might help. Yet all I can think about is how cruel this system is. Now there’s the idea that god will lobotomize me so I won’t care that he’s torturing my family. Fucking a, this was always just trying to pick the least awful choice. It’s like the cultists in lovecraft who worship Cthulhu so he’ll eat them first and not force them to go through what happens when he awakens.

>>18613273
See >>18613242

>the structure of the universe has regularities that allow it to be described decently well in some respects with less than infinite information
Why would this require an omnipotent, omniscient disembodied mind? Does the omnipotent, omniscient disembodied mind not have its own peculiar regularities that would then be in need of explaining? "God is not a man, that he should lie." -- How do we account for this law allegedly governing God's mind without invoking a super-God who is necessary to prevent normal-God's mind from devolving into chaos?

>>18613220
>>Link yours
>No.
That's it, case closed. You have absolutely nothing to say.
>Sure. My point is that I'm not interested in EPIC DEBVTE.
Even less so.
>please do enjoy burning.
For someone who worships a god of eternal love and compassion you sure seem to love people burning.
>I gave you Pastor Shelley's video.
Wasn't me. In none of my (you)s did you give any video. Not like it matters since it's probably gonna be "GOD HECKIN' LOVES YOU THEREFORE HE'S REAL!!! GOD FUCKING LOVES YOU, YOU FUCKING HATEFUL FAGGOT!!! I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU, LOVE WINS!!!".

Goodnight everyone, this was tiresome.

>>18613271
>You have a specific ontology of science that is not common in casual settings; most people take laws to mean binding rules of nature such as the law of gravity and so forth
I'm not saying that science is agnostic about the fact that massive objects attract each other in certain specific ways. I'm saying that it's agnostic about the underlying ontology of why this happens. It could be that there is some abstract object that is causing it to do so, but it could also be that certain particles have the property of interacting with gravitons in a certain way and that's the whole story, no abstract objects involved.
>secondary evidence
I'm only interested in this specific argument. If you're not interested in teaching me what your view is on the ontology of so called laws and why you think they must be made, I'll thank you for the conversation and peace out.

>>18613278
I don't know why you're bragging about being a Christ killer and trying to make a hell of the entire world. Anyways, the Spirit will never be destroyed and your alignment with the dark can only end with your destruction at the hands of the light.

>>18613273
You're not white.
>>18613286
>Wasn't me. In none of my (you)s did you give any video.
It's linked in the OP. Your brain is worthless.

>>18613294
>"The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says, The Bible says"
Walls on the toilet stall also say a lot.

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>>18613294
>You're not white.
You seem to think that it matters... but truly I tell you what does matter is if or not you see the light, and love your God.

>>18613287
>your view is on the ontology of so called laws
I don't know the name of the argument, but it would have to be something like the inheritability of the ontological nature of being
wherein, chaos cannot beget order unless acted upon by order
nonlife cannot beget life unless acted upon by the living
and so forth
so an object cannot spontaneously manifest a quality that it never possessed in the first place unless acted upon by something which possesses that character
therefor, for there to be order, the chaos had to be intervened on by order
for there to be life, inanimate matter had to be acted upon by something living
I'd have to work more on the thought but that would be the raw form of it

>>18613323
>chaos cannot beget order unless acted upon by order
That's the metaphysical gacha machine again tho. I don't think many atheists will grant that.

>>18613323
And by grant that I mean specifically chaos being fundamental. Many may not grant that chaos only begets chaos either, but that's a whole another topic.

>>18613331
>That's the metaphysical gacha machine again tho
could you tell me what this is and why it's bad

>>18613335
A variant of the ground of all being that has the property of randomly spitting out all kinds of material and immaterial objects, concepts, entities etc.
I'm not saying it's bad, I just don't understand why you believe that either God exists or this weird gacha thing exists.

>>18613236
What I don't understand is if I just decided "Fuck God, I want nothing to do with Jesus" what would stop me from getting on HRT, getting tats pointing to my ass saying "FUN CENTER", going through 1-3 guys a day taking it raw, pissing and cumming on Bibles and crosses, cursing God, doing drugs, and enjoy a twenty year spiral into Hell?

>>18613355
>and enjoy
what stops most people is that they wouldn't enjoy it

>>18613346
>I just don't understand why you believe that either God exists or this weird gacha thing exists.
because of where we are at now; we had to get to this point somehow (cosmic order and life), and the secular materialist position tends to be "I dunno it just happened, grant me the big bang"
it is not ontologically satisfying to my experience due to having no explanatory or normative power over the things I care most about; life, meaning, beauty, flourishing, etc
If everything just happened and there is no telos behind all this order and life, then how should a person live if they are begotten by chaos?
Either way, there is no reason not to believe in God because either it doesn't matter or it is true

>>18613373
>If everything just happened and there is no telos behind all this order and life, then how should a person live if they are begotten by chaos?
Idk but the fact that I'd like something to be true generally doesn't motivate me to believe it's actually true. I'm too autistic for that. That's also why I can't believe in God just because, I'd need to be convinced of his existence by some kind of argument or a piece of evidence that would align with my epistemic standards.

>>18613381
Keep after the question; at the very least it is the most interesting one

>>18613413
I'll admit it's not that interesting to me because I don't think it's a true dichotomy between the ground of all being either being a mind or chaos.

>>18613101
>ignores sin
Evert time.

>>18612860
which god? There are so many.

>>18613208
why is a lawgiver simply, than chance, over an infinite period of time.

>>18614734
For start, you don't have an infinite period of time to work with.

I like jacking off to porn

>>18614891
What was before the universe?

>>18615003
Irrelevant. Next?

>>18615003
A carpenter from Galilee.

>>18615003
There is no "before the universe" time is a phenomena that started with it
Everything that exists outside of it is an eternal thing outside of time

>>18615066
no its not lol.
>>18615117
probably true. So when I said time, i really dont have words for what you would call before, and I dont think anyone else does. But there is no proof of any kind this is the only universe lol. And thus infinite tries, might be more accurate.

>>18615117
We don't know what was before the universe and we can't know. Because everything we could use to figure it out is a part of our universe.

>There is no "before the universe" time is a phenomena that started with it
That's wrong/unknown though. Before the universe could have been something similar to our universe. And that something could have time.