Every sect of Christianity is disobedient in its own special and characteristic way, none is the “one true church”, none is perfectly clean, and none owns the unity. Each Trinitarian group participates imperfectly.Why is this so hard for non-Catholics and non-mainline Protestants to accept?
why are catholics so duplicitous
>>18614959> Why is this so hard for non-Catholics and non-mainline Protestants to accept?Because their whole form is built on it. They define themselves by NOT being the big historic bodies, so the only stable identity left is “we are the truly right remnant.” If that drops, the group loses its reason to exist.
>>18614959name one way Eastern Orthodoxy is hereticalpro tip: you can't
>>18615114When it returned the Catholic excommunication tit for tat, it sunk a bit. Would have been taking the high road to accept the humiliation rather than harden the boundary and turn inwards. It chose the low road and became “Catholicism East”. That’s one way. The heresy is the attempt to own the unity locally and confine it to form.Other than that, yeah nothing. Eastern theology is clean and sturdy, especially if you open the window a bit and let it breath.
>>18615114Dyophysitism
>>18615107>>18614959catholics are literally the ones calling themselves the one true church, that's their phrase. popish freaks.
>>18615130Notice how “we are the truly right remnant” doesn’t describe the Catholic vibe at all, because it’s simply never been in that position. It has status quo primacy. Precisely because of that, she leaves the door outside of its own bounds open as liberally as possible, in humility and charity. It’s like noblesse obligee, and it’s what the remnant groups don’t have/do.
>>18615114They refuse the primacy of the Pope in Rome.
>>18615143If Rome would have succeeded in latinizing the East, treasures would have been uniformly erased. Latins were like the Maoists of Christianity. It’s for the best that the East didn’t let that Roman primacy bend into supremacy.
>>18615128>Dyophysitismrequired or the garden of Gethsemane doesnt make sense>>18615143the papacy didn't exist in the early church, it was a blatant power grab by Rome over the church they ironically spent the early days murdering relentlessly, including most of the apostles
>>18615154That’s assuming the Chalcedonian framework in which will follows nature. Miaphysites deny that this inference is necessary. then the inference breaks: you can affirm a real human willing in Christ without committing to two post-union natures, because will is no longer strictly tied one-to-one to nature. Both traditions affirm that Christ truly struggled and truly obeyed in Gethsemane.Ceteris paribus, the main argument for preferring miaphysitism is simplicity. Miaphysitism can be seen as ontologically simpler because it emphasizes the unity of Christ more directly, and avoids the appearance of dividing Christ conceptually into two parallel realities, for the sake of preservation a distinction which Christ came to transcend.The distinction between divinity and humanity is not erased. Rather, in Christ they are united in a higher, inseparable reality. So the distinction still exists, but it no longer exists as a division.The result is visibly healthier icons.
>>18615140Notice how Catholics call themselves the one true church and are now getting mad that other denominations do it (except they don't)
>>18615140You're twisting his words.The official position of the catholic church is that it is the one true church, and that every other christian church is misguided/incorrect to varying degrees.>she leaves the door outside of its own bounds open as liberally as possible, in humility and charity.The catholic church's embrace of ecumenism is simply a pragmatic concession of its ever-dwindling relevance to the modern world.
>>18615177Gnash teeth all you want, but the structure of that unique first mover advantage is apparent. Again, it’s not saying it’s the only church, just the most mainstream temple.
>>18615183>it’s not saying it’s the only churchDo you mean in a Vatican 2 sense, where Catholics for purely cynical globohomo reasons have decided to adopt a framework where the other churches are valid? Or do you mean what Catholics traditionally believed and what many continue to believe.>just the most mainstream templewho the fuck talks like this, are you a jeet? No one has ever called catholicism "the most mainstream temple"
>>18615180> The official position of the catholic church is that it is the one true church, and that every other christian church is misguided/incorrect to varying degrees.That’s different from the “we are the truly right remnant” ache that all the unlisted churches have. Obviously Catholicism teaches that it’s uniquely true in the most important sense. Every church is allowed to do have that conviction. What matters here isn’t that, it’s if you think your church is perfect (Catholicism knows it’s not) and the level of charity you extend the wider body.
>>18615191tranny femcel schizoid nonsense
>>18615174I mean, every apostolic denomination disagrees with you on this and affirms Dyophysitism besides the Oriental Orthodox, so i'd hardly call it a heresy which is the topic at hand
>>18615189Uncircumcised language in this post, not responding to it
>>18615197why are you bragging about being muslim or jewish, that's not something to be proud of.
>>18615195If miaphysitism is right then dyophysitism is a soft heresy that got mainstream traction. It punctures the “our church is perfectly preserved” magical thinking.
>>18615202Colossians 2:11–12:“In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”
>>18615207Why are you proud of being muslim or jewish
>>18615203heresies are declared by ecumenical councils which affirmed the legitimacy of Dyophysitism, so by your logic it would be Miaphysitism that would be the heresy if anythingwe don't just get to declare ideas heresies because we privately decide that they are; these things are determined by councils
>>18615213Yeah and for a council to be considered ecumenical it has to include the whole church. Chalcedon didn’t. That’s the counter-argument. Also the fact that 1 is a more godly number than 2 tells you what you need do know. Occam’s razor, parsimony logic, whatever you want to call it is doing the work here, not private judgment.
>>18615215>Occam’s razor, parsimony logicnot Christian
>>18615216Nonsense. Clean reasoning *is* Christian. 1 is holier than 2.
>>18615221Enlightenment era hogwashby that reasoning the Trinity should not be a thing because one hypostases would be more parsimonious than threeThere is nothing about Christianity that is simple or requires simplicity
>>18615229Dyophysitism is enlightenment-era? No, it’s older. 3 is holy, 1 is holy, 7 is holy, 12 is holy, these numbers go back to before Christianity. Nothing to do with the enlightenment. Dyophysitism divides what never needed to be divided compared to miaphysitism, so it’s the one making the extra move; meaning, more worldly. The Trinity isn’t.
>>18615239okay youre either retarded or arguing in bad faithI was obviously addressing the requirement for parsimonystop wasting my time
>>18615248I mistyped Anyway I don’t actually think dyophysitism is heresy, I just think miaphysitism is more clean and was giving my personal perspective on it.If you want the least clean aspect of EO, it’s the reciprocal ban on Catholics while taking the moral high ground. Relatedly to that, phyletism. Both cases of that same dynamic: reacting at the level of rivalry rather than manifesting the perfection of unity it claims.
>>18615114They worship finger bones. And when criticized for doing as such they produce a 50 page cope as to why they aren't "technically" worshiping a dead guy's finger bones.
>>18615174You already agreed with the Catholics and Orthodox that you all actually have the same Christological understanding in the 90s m8
>>18615215>Chalcedon didn’tNeither did Ephesus 2 where you exonerated Eutyches and condemned the rest of the church which Chalcedon was a reaction to
>>18614959Enjoy Hell.>>18615114Works salvation. Idolatry. There's two.
>>18615191Why are you bringing up this "remnant" nonsense yet again? That wasn't the initial argument.>and the level of charity you extend the wider bodyIt's not charity in any sense of the word given the history of the church. If the church felt it could get away with having other denominations violently suppressed (as has been the historical experience) it would do so.
>>18615357That’s cool, I guess I’m not up to date, but that doesn’t mean one formulation isn’t cleaner.>>18615370You can’t be a Eucharist-taking Christian and casually tell people “enjoy Hell” without sincere contrition and repentance.
>>18615360That’s too tightly looped for me to track the logic, you’ll have to expand the argument
>>18615392Again: Enjoy Hell. That's the choice you made, right? Might as well enjoy it.
>>18615390> Why are you bringing up this "remnant" nonsense yet again? That wasn't the initial argument.It wasn’t the argument, it was the answer for why. Some churches define themselves by being NOT the big historic bodies, that is a fact. For such groups, the only stable identity left is “we are the truly right remnant.” They literally can’t extend ecumenical charity to the biggest, oldest players because it violates the geometry of their self-definition which is wholly based on separation and distinction.
>>18615395I see you are playing judge. That puts you in danger of judgment, not me.
>>18615405>I see you are playing judge.Nope. The King James Bible will judge you. And we all know that it says you're going to burn. Tick tock.>That puts you in danger of judgment, not me.I'm never going to Hell.
>>18615409Your hard line says: “over there is error / danger / hell, and I am on the safe side.”That quietly installs two zones and a second judge (other than God) who stands between them.So your move that feels like self-protection is actually a split. And the split itself is the instability. You now have to keep defending the line, scanning, reinforcing, judging.Your burn will just be that collapse: judgment returns to its source, and dissolves the one who tried to hold it.
>>18615422>That quietly installs two zones and a second judge (other than God) who stands between them.No, it doesn't. God made the line.>So your move that feels like self-protection is actually a split. And the split itself is the instability. You now have to keep defending the line, scanning, reinforcing, judging.Word salad.>Your burn will just be that collapse: judgment returns to its source, and dissolves the one who tried to hold it.More word salad. This is your "brain" on Catholicism.
>>18615300it's weird, but I wouldn't call it heretical as they don't worship to saints as Gods, rather they venerate them as vessels of God
>>18615431I’m a Protestant> No, it doesn't. God made the line.The problem isn’t the line. The problem is taking authorship of its enforcement and outcome. That’s where the heat comes from. If God made the line, you don’t need to enforce it. Your job as servant isn’t to operate it that way.
>>18615445>The problem isn’t the line. The problem is taking authorship of its enforcement and outcome.Great! I'm not doing that. >That’s where the heat comes from.I'm never going to Hell.>If God made the line, you don’t need to enforce it. Your job as servant isn’t to operate it that way.You don't believe the gospel, so you're going to burn. That's what the Bible clearly teaches. I'm committing no trespass by reminding you of that fact. You just don't like it, which is why you're desperate to accuse me of something instead of reconciling yourself to God. Pretty pathetic! Tick tock.
>>18615454> I'm never going to Hell.Yeah you are, because you’re playing judge and condemning a believer for no reason. Idiot. When there is no separate other to hold it, judgment returns to its source. Bye.
>>18615458>God is a liarThose flames just got hotter.
>>18615461The rule you use to condemn others is universal, not personal, so it automatically includes you. The scriptures say that. God is not a liar and I see right now you are under judgment.
>>18615464>The rule you use to condemn others is universal, not personal, Correct.>so it automatically includes you.No, it does not. I believe in Jesus for my salvation.
>>18615465If your rule is universal, you can’t self-exempt. “You go hell, I go to heaven” isn’t how a saint reasons. Just because you can redraw a magical convenience line around yourself doesn’t take you out from under your same judgment that you’re applying to others.
>>18615478Alright you're trolling. You know what that earns you? Rejection from my life. My time has way too much value to be spent on trash such as yourself. Bye!
>>18615479Nice argument
>>18615486Thanks! Frankly I can't wait to rule and reign with Jesus so that when I meet rodents like that on the streets I can just crack their skulls with a rod of iron. At least, that's how I'm hoping that the millennial reign works.
>>18615489That was sarcasm and you’re not a christian, shoo psycho and please avoid going in churches.
>>18615501Keep stoking those flame, rat. :D
>>18615394The Chalcedonian Schism was just stupid on both sidesEutyches was an archmandrite who was excommunicated by Constantinople for monophysitism and was exiledHe appealed to the other patriarchates to try to have his sentence liftedAlexandria then presided over the Second Council of Ephesus in 449 where Eutyches pled his caseNo Western bishops were able to get to the council in timeEutyches pretended that his positions were less extreme than they actually were and convinced the council to exonerate him and to excommunicate the Patriarchs of Constantinople and Antioch, the Pope (of Rome) and his theological opponentsChalcedonian sources also contend attendees were intimidated and beaten into submission by thugs hired by Patriarch Dioscorus of AlexandriaThis outraged the rest of the church, with Pope Leo I excommunicating all participated in it, and led to the Council of Chalcedon two years later, which reinstated the excommunication of Eutyches, everyone that Ephesus II had excommunicated, and excommunicated Dioscorus in absentiaPro-Alexandrian sources contend that Dioscorus didn't attend not out of contempt for the council but because Emperor Marcian had deliberately imprisoned him to prevent him from arguing his case to have a speed council, and that the Empress Pulcheria insulted and had guards physically abuse himDioscorus was exiled and Constantinople attempted to appoint a Chalcedonian successor, who was rejected, with the Alexandrian church selecting one of his disciples to be his successor as Patriarch after his deathThe new Patriarch of Alexandria, Timothy II, convened a Third Council of Ephesus in 475, where they retroactively condemned the teachings of Eutyches in agreement with Chalcedon but didn't retract their earlier exoneration of him, while still condemning the Chalcedonian definition as NestorianismThen for the rest of the time the ERE ruled over Egypt Constantinople repeatedly tried to force convert it to Chalcedonianism
>>18615519>The Chalcedonian Schism was just stupid on both sidesImmediately stopped reading. It's so boring listening to the quibbles one group of heretics has with another group of heretics.
>>18615514דין
>>18615401"Ecumenical charity" has only truly existed since Vatican II. As late as 1908 the official position of the Catholic Church in Ireland for example was that a requirement of any marriage involving a Catholic (that wanted official recognition by the Church) was that the children must be raised as Catholic.Again, it's simply a consequence of the severely-diminished importance and power of the Catholic Church in both the lives of Catholics and on a broader level. It certainly isn't a consequence of some leniency inherent to its position as one of the largest churches.
>>18614959I can't speak for Catholics, but the Protestants I talk to in offline spaces have no problems accepting this. The attitude tends to be "doctrinal leanings are for theologically heady conversations. Your identity as a Christian is in the Nicene Creed." It's only chronically online schizos, cultists, and Mormons that freak out and tell you you're going to burn for not listening to the correct podcasts.
>>18615654They had power before and still didn’t call themselves a tiny pure remnant—so the openness isn’t from weakness, it’s from how they see themselves.
>>18615654>>18615736Allow me to elaborate on that. If Catholics had power before and still didn’t call themselves a tiny pure remnant, then their identity was never built on excluding everyone else. Meaning: Their self-definition isn’t “we alone escaped corruption,” it’s “we are the centre or whole, even if imperfect.”So even at peak power, they didn’t need to shrink the field to validate themselves. That’s the key: remnant groups need others to be wrong to exist, but Catholic geometry doesn’t—it can stay itself while leaving space around it.
>>18615096>why are catholics so duplicitousThey aren't allowed to read the Bible -- the book the literally spells out Christian Beliefs, so many of they are actually fairly confused on many things.Especially things that aren't even biblical, such as 'Purgatory'.Only trust a Roman 'Catholic' who admits to reading the Bible for truth.- those who trust in the 'Pope' are easily fooled, IMO (& I have evidence)
>>18615776Yet again, this is all irrelevant given the history of the catholic church up until arguably Vatican II, in which the church considered the repression of those 'remnant groups' part and parcel of being 'the centre or whole' of christendom.
>>18615422>Your hard line says: “over there is error / danger / hell, and I am on the safe side.”>That quietly installs two zones and a second judge (other than God) who stands between them.That's TRUE, Brother... we Are to judge Right and Wrong, just not Harshly, or as if we were God himself. :-)
>>18617158That’s exactly where it slips. If you’re assigning who stands where, you’ve stepped into His role.Clean is: see clearly what is aligned or not.Unclean is: deciding who is in or out because of it.
>>18615114>work together with the state to such a degree that their leaders are basically just bureaucrats >lived for hundreds of years under enemy occupation, proving they don't have God's favor on their side>be just as corrupt, pedophilic as Western churches, if not more, but they don't live in White countries, so there are no morally righteous people calling them out for it, giving the false appearance of a "cleaner church"
