Do angels have free will and if they do where in the Bible does it say that?
>>18615883I love this exorcist.
>>186158832 Peter 2:4 states: "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment".If angels are incapable of free will, they could not be said to "sin".
>>18615890There's nothing about sin that necessitates free will. It's a retroactively constructed concept that has to defend itself against scripture constantly by reinterpreting the text and/or making exemptions.
>>18615893If free will does not exist, then the word "sin" becomes meaningless.
>>18615883According to the strict law of the Torah, angels in Judaism do not possess free will and are simply agents of G-d.
>>18615890It's almost like the NT is a Greco-Roman fanfic...
>>18615898Ha-Satan is also an agent of G-d and serves as his prosecutor of the sinned.
>>18615901Not an argument.
>>18615897No, it just loses the concept that coincides with any normative ethic of agency. God could both be the primary cause of sin through the instrumentation of mankind and enact just wrath on sinners. Because the Potter gets to decide what to do with His clay.
>>18615909I'm just saying that the fact is that Judaism doesn't treat Ha-Satan as an agent with free will, Ha-Satan's rebellion against G-d is a later theological development instituted by Gnostic (and later Christian) heretics.So, OP's question of whether angels have free will and what that means for the Christian myth of "fallen angels", holds no weight in Judaic texts, which maintains the orthodox Abrahamic position that angels have no free will to begin with and that Ha-Satan is simply part of G-d's agency.
>>18615883And he's going to join them one day.
>>18615934Protestantbro?
>>18615939I don't know who that is. I'm a Baptist.
>>18615923More like OT revealed what a small tribe could handle and NT revealed what humanity should know.
>>18615901Enjoy Hell.
>>18615897So Pharoah didn't sin when god hardened his heart and forced him to sin to further the narrative instead of doing what he originally intended making the murder of every first born unjustified and the wandering for 40 years unnecessary punishment?
>>18615917Scared, Potter?
I feel like the bible is full of shit when its not the gospels
>>18615883So technically, according to the strict law of the quran, not one angel has free-will. They are beings of pure light; an extension of God's own will. much like in rabbinic judaism.In contrast, God created Adam from dust, and he said to him "Be" and he was. He was taught "names" that the angels did not know; understood in our tradition as innate capacity for learning and reasoning. God offered him a burden of Trust; agency and accountability. The heavens choose to obey in perfect obedience, fearing this 'choice', but Man assumed it, and his soul was inspired with rebellion and piety. He was made vicegerant of earth.In our theology, Iblis is an exalted jinn, possessing free-will. There was not one corner of heaven, he did not honor God. But out of arrogance he saw himself superior to man, when he had no knowledge of the unseen.He was humbled, and became an agent of God's trial, promising to mislead people. He has no real power over men, but he whispers into their hearts, to lead them astray.
Reminder - Exorcism is fake. Ghosts are fake. It's all in your mind. Human mind can create powerful hallucinations on its ownFollowing christ niggers like this so called priest is not good for your mental health. Everything you fear is in your brain.
>>18615897Only if you don't understand what sin actually is, which is an infection of spiritual corruption
>>18615970God hardened Pharaoh's heart with His presenceBecause Pharaoh was of wicked and prideful character, the presence of what is holy turns his heart to stone and maliceThe same holy energy empowers righteous men
>>18616235>God hardened Pharaoh's heart with His presence>Because Pharaoh was of wicked and prideful character, the presence of what is holy turns his heart to stone and maliceIs that written in the Bible?
>>18616239Yep if you speak Hebrew the words they use mean this, go translate it yourself
>>18616235Yes that is what I said, it was god's will, not pharaoh's, pharaoh wanted to let them go until god intervened.>Because Pharaoh was of wicked and prideful character,By that logic, every individual is prisince god is the only I, so that means god doesn't give anyone free will, everyone is always subject to the changes in behavior caused by that presence.
>>18616266Pharaoh has dominion over his character and could have repented at any timeBecause of a hardened heart, God knew that His presence would cause Pharaoh to be spiteful
>>18616295>God knew that His presence would cause Pharaoh to be spitefulHow do you know this? Does God know everything?
>>18615898 #Not true. The angel God sent to lead Mosha and the Israelites was given free reign to punish israel however he saw fit, it was an angel who has the name of God in him, so one of them who's name ends in El. And since he appeared to Joshua as the Commander of God's armies then he was likely Mika'El.Also on Daniel Gabriel was held for 21 days by the prince of Persia which is also an angel. And according to Jewish lore this happened because Gabriel disobeyed God when God ordered the death of some of the Israelites and Gabriel pittied them sent them to exile to Babylon instead. Jewish lore says Gabriel was in temporary disgrace for 21 days and was replaced during that time by Dobi'El, who is the prince of Persia.
>>18615917So he makes sinful creatures. And he knows 100% what they will do in the future as he is making them. And then when they die he puts them in hell as punishment for the sins they committed, which they did according to his plan?
Where does it say that they don't?
>>18615883>angelsAngels were just white people.It's there in the Sumerian mythology. They came and civilised the "black headed" savages. Eventually became gods, and angels.
>>18615883>>18617047You can assume everyone in the old testament has free will, unless stated otherwise. The concept of God as omniscient and omnipotent prime mover is a Greek invention. The original concept of God in the old testament is quite different. Greek ideas got injected into Christianity early on by the people who formalized the new testament.
>>18615883If you don't mind courting heresy there's always the Book of Enoch, when a group of angels let their horniness drive them to fall. They even individually picked out grils to mate with.>And it came to pass, after the children of men had increased in those days, beautiful and comely daughters were born to them. And the angels, the sons of the heavens, saw and lusted after them, and said one to another: "Behold, we will choose for ourselves wives from among the children of men, and will beget for ourselves children."Enoch 6:1-2
>>18616932Yes
>>18617095The stronger case for the religious seeding of a tri-omni modeled divinity comes from the Persians during their occupation of Jerusalem. Aristotalian logic definitely went a long way into fleshing out the ideas and formalizing systematic theologies, but cosmic dualism was the catalyst that made omnipotence an imperative in the first place.
>>18616890The Jewish God isn't real that's the reason why Iran is more powerful without the Supreme Leader who enforced his evil Abrahamic religion of Shia Islam to a country that only lost to pagans from Greece before it made the terrible mistake of abandoning Zoroaster
>>18616295>Pharaoh has dominion over his character and could have repented at any timeNo, his heart was hardened by an omnipotent being, he wanted to let them go, but god forced him not to with magical intervention that overrode his initial intentions and basic free will since pharaoh didn't harden his own heart, god did.
>>18616295Who hardened Pharoah's heart anon? Hint: scripture tells us. In two separate places.
>>18617831Pharoah and God.
>>18617832Scripture says Pharaoh hardened his own heart?
>>18617838Yep.
>>18617840Care to provide that verse?
>>18617895>And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.Exodus 8:32
>>18617900Cool. Let's dig into those "also" times. Because you chose the very last time of the other 4 occurrences in that chapter to quote. Care to pull up and post the others?
>>18617904>Care to pull up and post the others?Not really. My position is that Pharoah and God both hardened Pharoah's heart. That position has been successfully established by the record in the Bible. Care to admit that?
>>18617914>My position is that Pharoah and God both hardened Pharoah's heart. That position has been successfully established by the record in the Bible. Care to admit that?If that's your sole position, then sure. Do you still maintain this position?>Pharaoh has dominion over his character and could have repented at any time
>>18617919>Pharaoh has dominion over his character and could have repented at any timeThat's never been my position.
>>18617927Ah, well the question you responded to was addressed to someone else who did maintain that position. On a semantic level, it can be said that Pharaoh hardened his heart. But on a conceptual level, what plays out in scripture is a sovereign God molding His clay as He sees fit.
>>18617900Too bad that doesn't prove you point since it came well after god cast a heart hardening spell on pharaoh.
>>18617943>Too bad that doesn't prove you point since it came well after god cast a heart hardening spell on pharaoh.It completely proves my point, which is that God and Pharaoh both hardened Pharaoh's heart. Your brain is worthless, and you're going to wish you were never born when you wake up in Hell. Enjoy! :D
>>18618194No, god hardened it, after which pharaoh really had no say in the matter because god is omnipotent.
>>18618200God has no obligation to be fair with the unfair. Pharaoh enslaved them and mistreated them and abused them and treated Israelites extremely harsh and unfair without realizing that the Creator of all things was their God and their protector.
>>18618229I accept your concession, god hardened his heart because god plays favorites and has no consistent morality because he is fine if his family enslaves others, but gets mad when his bloodline is enslaved.
>>18618200Did Pharaoh harden his own heart according to the King James Bible? Yes or no?
>>18618234IDK man, I'm pretty sure God has devastated Israelites many many times for their wickedness. Burned down their cities and sent armies to slaughter them and rape their wife's and enslaved their children. Israelites have eaten the flesh of their own children during famines sent by God for their oppression of the poor and needy, foreigners, orphans and widows.
>>18618242>>18618234NTA but you don't usually "harden your own heart" any more than you "lift your own mood" lol it's a condition produced by dozens of internal and external factors. Pharaoh did not harden his own heart. He did freely choose to not let the people go.Had God not hardened Pharaoh's heart, you could just as easily cry about his free will being changed by an external factor - Moses pleading. As long as you imagine free will to be an isolated computer unaffected by external factors, you will always have to conclude it's missing from the texts, because the texts aren't working with a Cartesian ghost in a machine.
>>18618279God has no obligation to be merciful with you if you have been merciless with others. God is a nightmare for the wicked.
>>18618279>Pharaoh did not harden his own heart.Exodus 8:32 clearly says he did, see >>18617900. Are you intentionally lying or do you have a reading disability?
>>18618284The chapter directly links Pharaoh's hardened heart to God promising to harden it.>7:3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart>8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, [just as the Lord had said].We can split hairs over whether this is a case of delegation or synergy or whether God has actually done it and Pharaoh was just a vessel or whatever, but one way or another, an equivalent of a mood change isn't something that cancels out free will, so the whole discussion becomes pointless to begin with. Take it easy.
>>18618295What does Exodus 8:32 say?
>>18618298You quoted what it says and responded to how that chapter introduces Pharaoh's heart hardening. If you have a point, I'll be glad to hear it, but just insisting on a verse in isolation isn't going to do it for me.
>>18618303>pretending not to understandI think my job is done here. You lost. Which means........I WIN! D::D
>>18618306If this is a victory for you, I'm glad we can both walk away satisfied. Till next time!
>>18615883>Do angels have free will and if they do where in the Bible does it say that?Yes. Genesis 6:2>That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
>>18618311>the sons of GodThat refers to men who called upon the name of the LORD, not angels. Try again?
>>18618315Satan is a man who called upon the name of the LORD?
>>18618315>the fall never happenedif it hadn't then the Son would not have been required
>>18618318>Satan is a man who called upon the name of the LORD?No.>>18618321>the fall never happenedYour brain is worthless. Stop trying to make connections, you're simply not capable of doing so in a coherent manner.
>>18618323>>Satan is a man who called upon the name of the LORD?>No.Then why is he among the Sons of God in Job?
>>18618323>Your brain is worthless.if you projected any harder you'd be on the moon
>>18618327>Then why is he among the Sons of God in Job?He was among them in the sense of being physically in their midst, not among them in the sense of being a member of that category.>>18618329Yeah, rapejeets aren't exactly known for their love of Jesus. Try again?
>>18618331if you loved Christ then you would not be denying the reason His incarnation was required
>>18618315Why would the union of a regular man and regular woman produce giants?
>>18618333You're a moron.
>>18618337>You're a moron.
>>18618336>Why Time wasting question incoming>would the union of a regular man and regular woman produce giants?Things were different back then. People used to live to be 900 years old. That wasn't because angels magically conceived with them. Grow up.
>>18618331And I imagine Jesus Christ being the Son of God was an exception to this extremely clear rule of Sons of God being men and spiritual implications just sort of accidentally making their way into the sentences?
>>18618347>And I imagine Jesus Christ being the Son of God was an exception to this extremely clear rule of Sons of God being men Jesus Christ is a man>and spiritual implications just sort of accidentally making their way into the sentences?The clear teachings of the Bible are more relevant for doctrine than an unsaved idiot's hallucination of meaning. Pretty basic.
>>18618350If standard Hebrew understanding of "Son of God" is idiotic hallucination, then the Bible must be by definition unintelligible. I'm afraid you're putting the cart before the horse and rushing them both from a very steep hill. There is no "clear teaching of the Bible" that "Son of God" means men and nobody in the whole book treats it this way.
>>18618353>No. NO!!!>I LOVE my delusions>How FUCKING DARE YOU try to take them away?????>*doubles down*Great, have fun with that.
>>18618364Please do take them away. You mentioned "clear teachings of the Bible". Please show me.
>>18618370>He came unto his own, and his own received him not.>But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:John 1:11-12 King James.
>>18615883>where in the Bible does it say that?Pr*t moment
>>18615883When one third of your underlings defect that's usually a sign of something...
>>18618378I won't comment on the obvious lack of clarity here on what sons of God are (besides something humans can become), but I will ask you how come "men" were sons of God already in Genesis when it was receiving Jesus Christ of Nazareth who gave people this power? Or is it also a clear teaching of the Bible that John here is testifying to good news from hundreds of years prior?
>actually goyim its really unclear and there is no consensus
>>18618391The Bible clearly teaches that men were calling upon the name of the LORD in Genesis 4:26, which precedes Genesis 6:2 since you probably have a hard time counting.
>>18618397So it is actually the "consensus" in your mind that John is merely re-iterating the Good News from hundreds of years prior. Wow.
>>18618402>consensusWhat? I don't care about that. Loose association is a sign of psychosis. Meds.
>>18618412It doesn't get looser than re-iterating centuries old reality in your proclamation of "news". I don't think John really needed meds though. I think you just need to be a little more intellectually honest. There are no medals for barely functional private semantics. "Men can become it so it's just men" is sadly just that.Take care, Anon, and cheer up a little. Neither your nor my opinions matter all that much.
>>18618413*yawn*
>>18618345The people who loves 900 years old and the giants were rel completely different groups of people.If the Benei Elohim mentioned in Job are angels then the Benei Elohim mentioned in Genesis 6 must also be angels.
>giants are children of angels and humansThat's a monotheism retcon. They were the children of gods and humans. Legendary figures like Gilgamesh.
>>18618721Angels are greater than gods, all the gods bow before Michael for example.
>>18618727Angels are just lesser gods who serve El / God / Yahweh. Demons are lesser gods who refused to serve him and got punished as a result. Micha-El is the greatest of the servants of El. So naturally the other ones bow to him.The early parts of the old testament is pretty clear that other gods are around besides the god of Israel. Just the god of Israel is the greatest of them.
>>18618835>“See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him
