I'd like to understand this strange fetish for the ancient Vedic Aryans. Why exactly are they the object of so much curiosity and pride? Compared to the Harappans, they were simply extremely backward All RV scholars agree that they didn't have large settlements, temples, or any kind of large-scale agriculture instead, they lived as nomads basing their entire economy on livestock. Ironically, modern East African peoples are like that, and you don't have the same reverence. Why? The most architecturally complex thing I found while studying was grass made of organic materials like wood, bamboo, and thatch, which were only seasonal, and cattle and people mixed in that place KEK Imagine the smell of manure, sweaty butts, and smelly feet?? Meanwhile, the Harappans had public pools, political centers, brick cities, sewers, and public baths. Like, there's no archaeological evidence of the Vedic peoples, lol, they didn't leave anything behind.
>>18633278>grassseasonal grass villages*
It's just the more "noble" culture. I hate it, when people try to equate "greatness" in history to proximity to our modern life style. Yeah, i guess, Harappans had a more comfortable life than Vedic herders. But that's not, what i am searching for in history. There is less romantic appeal in giant stone favelas than in the idea of the free and virtuos vedic herders.
>>18633278And yet, somehow, probably with some magical force of nature, they managed to impose their language and religion for a long time on these superior Harrapans being "peaceful" This proves how useless these Harrapani were bcuz they didn't see much value in their own culture and language to allow themselves to be absorbed. Or, if it was an invasion, all those brick walls and fortifications couldn't stop primitive young men of 20 to 25 years old who had been looting these cities for years, which makes them even more useless. Its your choice, Rajesh
>>18633278MUMMA!
>>18633292>giant stone favelasNice try.>>18633293For your post to make sense to you, you must: 1) show evidence of large-scale invasion. We are waiting. 2) You must necessarily ignore that the reason the Indus Valley Civilization fell was due to the drying up of the rivers and the sandization The choice is yours
Because they had Vedic religion, which was astoundingly advanced for its time. You have hymns about nondualism from like 1200 BC. Then you have an unbroken line from that to the higher forms of Hinduism, so it's more the "wow ancient cultural continuity in this one really important respect" effect than a "wow they sure were good at building aqueducts and shit" type deal.Nobody cares about the IVC outside of India because they didn't have writing.
>>18633334Because they had Vedic religion, which was astoundingly advanced for its timeShut up
>>18633342The only thing that would shut me up would be your luscious lips on mine, anon...
>>18633278?I. THE HARAPPANS WERE ARYAN.II. THE VEDICS WERE TURANYAN, NOT ARYAN.
>18633347Why does this Mexican come into every thread about Indo-Iranians to spam this?
>>18633347Meme map, it is also from after the aryan invasions so it doesn't apply to the Vedic Aryan invasion of the Harappan culture.
>>18633375PLEASE, DECIPHER YOUR WORDSALAD.
>>18633362>Mexican Based on his laughable assertion that the Harappans were Aryan, he is 99.99% likely to be a jeet of the hindu nationalist type.
>>18633380No, cumgenius (aka kevin) is a known mexican. No idea why he's pushing Hindutva slop lmao
>>18633391VEDICS: TURANYANS; HARAPPANS: ARYANS.WHY WOULD STATING HISTORICAL FACT MAKE ME AN ADHERENT TO SOME INDIAN IDEOLOGY OR POLITICAL FACTION?ARE YOU MENTALLY IMPAIRED?
>>18633380100% actually
>>18633408meds now
>>18633278They are the progenitor culture of Indian civilization, and also they scratch a very specific VGH... MVH ARYAN ANCESTVHS itch in people who aren't related to them. Also, while materially poor, some of their poetry and prose has survived to us (Thanks, pajeets), which gives us a far greater view into their society than we can ever have from the IVC. Even if their script is deciphered (never) the information wouldn't match what we can get from the Vedas and related texts.That said I don't get trying to shit on either in favour of the other. The Harappans were exquisite urban planners and decent plasticists. The Vedics had cool poetry.
>>18633535Correct, but remember that Indo-Iranian peoples of the second millennium BC had large, planned settlements and monumental constructions. What led the Vedic peoples to adopt a purely pastoral way of life is another matter, but the OP is biased.
>>18633380Nope https://x.com/KMGN49
>>18633376>Meme mapThe map is a meme.>it is also from after the aryan invasions so it doesn't apply to the Vedic Aryan invasion of the Harappan cultureNot sure how to make this any clearer.Aryan invasion: 1500 BColdest mention of Turan: 900 BCTuran is from after the Aryan invasions. Turan postdates it. The Aryan invasions happened first, Turan appeared second.Literally nothing about my post is difficult to understand unless you are ESL.
>>18633292>giant stone favelasOf all the civilizations you could say that, you choose the Harappans lol. Their cities are widely known for being pretty well organized and with amazing infrastructure, especially if compared to cities in Sumeria and Egypt around the same time.
>>18633693How did the aryans conquered india
>>18633347Shut up Cumginny, isn't there a self-hating hispanista thread you should be in right now? You are outclassed here.
The Rigvedic Aryans built fire altars made of clay and/or bricks, something that can be traced back to Sintashta and perhaps even earlier in MDC culture.
>>18633869Unfortunately, the author still holds the limited view that the word, as well as the practice of using bricks, comes from a borrowing from "bmac," but that's no longer plausible in 2026.Still, it's an interesting article worth reading.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/242265188_Apam_Napat_Dirghatamas_and_the_Construction_of_the_Brick_Altar_Analysis_of_RV_1143As the author says, for now we are restricted to textural evidence and etymologies due to a lack of archaeological evidence, perhaps due to India's climate which makes it difficult to preserve brick altars over millennia, or perhaps the Vedic people simply destroyed them after their sacrificial use.(nomadic lifestyle)But I presume that one day we may find some example, as was the case with the fire-worship structure of Bolshoi Sintashta Kurgan, which also used bricks. This proves that the Vedic people built these brick altars, and this practice cannot be considered a "bmac" borrowing in light of modern linguistic and archaeological evidence. We can discuss Vedic villages.
>>18633907>>18633883>>18633869>no citiesBoring! even Neolithic peoples had their own mud altars... so what?
>>18633907I don't mean to be annoying, anon but I think it's impossible for an altar to have survived to this day Northern India was much more humid and tropical than it is today, so anything like that would have been absorbed by the soil
>>18633837Spear and their swords (not talking about Bronze swords here)
>>18633911Aryans didn't need boring cities. They were mobile and built impressive temples on wheels which the Brahmins used to run over their enemies.
>>18633911Large settlements are referred to only with derision - targets for plundering. Tacitus said the Germans purposefully spread their houses apart as far as possible. Europeans are a rural race. We need living space. Scandinavia was so rural that Old Norse didn't have a word for "town" or "city." They used the word "garðr" which meant "place" or "enclosed area" like a farm Cope and seeth, Dasa.
>>18633932>>18633928So, are gypsies superior then?
>>18633932Dasas were far more superior
>>18633936Gypsies have Indian blood
>>18633675Which aites are you referring too?
>>18633278The Harappans were like the Vinca and Cucuteni-Trypillia. They could build, but they could not fight
Notice how it's only after these guys arrived that people really started thinking. Yeah. they were going around on chariots philosophizing the whole earth talking about deep stuff. You could say even the greek philosophy only came after their arrival and language Nobody cares about some mud bricks and coomer statues.
>>18634086Late Harappa was definitely an empire of some sort. And regardless the culture had collapsed for like 500 years by the point of Aryan arrival onto India.
>>18634099>definitely>of some sort>killed themselves before Aryans came downWell at least we are back in the real world where the Aryan invasion happened. For some time there were a few annoying jeets who kept insisting it was made up lmao
>>18634095The Vedas are about how you shant steal the Brahmin's cows, Indra being epic, and how to kill horses to assert rulership.
>>18634110I'm not going to engage in a thirdie rapebabble contest with you. If you want to call the migrations an invasion then shuck and jive away. Btw tjere are different ways of holding an empire so I do not see why the qualifier is wrong.
>>18634139NTA but what exactly distinguishes a migration from an invasion?
>>18634139>different ways to hold an empireThe Cucuteni and Vinca held empires too. It did not help them against the Aryans any more than it helped the Harappans
>>18634076There are several fortified settlements in the region, perhaps the most famous being Arkaim. The plan of Arkaim is interpreted as a more fortified part, and there were many others, from Abashevo we have urban structures designed for an increasingly "sedentary" life. These "citadels" contained an inner circle of dwellings, and a less fortified outer circle. The building materials were various types of soil including clay blocks and wood
>>18634140In this context specifically the Aryan migration theory entailed the destruction of the IVC by the incoming Aryans and blanket subjection of the vanquished people. This did not happen; the IVC had de-urbanized long before their arrival and the relationship between Aryan and non-Aryan was found to be more complex iirc.>>18634149No. They didn't. They were just farming cultures with big settlements. The later Indus Valley sites show a set of unified traits that make them being an empire probable. I just don't know how it worked exactly.And old Europe was devastated by plague previous to the IE invasions, you know that.
>>18634149>The Cucuteni and Vinca held empires tooLmao. Where did you get this from? The Vinca "civilization" was just a bunch of villages, and the Cucuteni barely had a centralized govenrment, as far as we can assess from the evidence. They didn't have full-fledged states, let alone empires.
>>18633278>degenerate homosexuality out of nowhere
>>18634172>No. They didn't. They were just farming cultures with big settlements.Kinda sorta like the Harappans. Also the ones I mentioned are significantly older ;-)>The later Indus Valley sitesSee above>unified traits that make them being an empire probable.A probable "empire" that collapsed like a deck of cards. Who was their Caesar? He should be crucified>I just don't know how it worked exactly. Nor does anyone else>And old Europe was devastated by plague previous to the IE invasions, you know that.Isolated hunter gatherers and Neolithic farmers were ravaged by plague? Maybe it happened in some area, but not everywhere. Also this is the old farmer trope that their settlements are more plague-prone than steppe pastoralists. It may be true, it certainly was for Romans and Sassanids, but it was the only or the major factor in the Aryan Expansion
>>18634188Calm your tits sister, you don't know how they handled their affairs. They were clearly advanced enough to build the first civilization, they must have had proper governance. Even if their empire was ruled by a council of elders as opposed to a king, they must have had elected kings for easier decisionmaking. It's just common sense, but maybe in your part of the world it's not very common.
>>18634159>>18634076But Perhaps the most interesting thing so far is the "proto-city" (note the word I used, city, not just a simple settlement) of Semiyarka, which belongs to the Alekseyevka culture of the Andronovo Horizon. The city has been dated to 1600 BC, and all indications suggest that the local nomadic communities were already beginning to transform into permanent urban settlementshttps://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/major-city-of-the-kazakh-steppe-investigating-semiyarkas-bronze-age-legacy/7D20FEEC9B8F7BC60721BF7CA401B788Semiyarka changed the way steppe societies are interpreted because he proved that seemingly nomadic communities were building and maintaining large, permanent, and organized settlements centered on large-scale industry. It seems there was a larger central structure, twice the size of the houses, but they don't know what it could be. There's a possibility that proto-cities and large-scale metallurgical centers also existed in other PII cultures. Maybe in the south too, In Tugai (in the middle Zeravshan valley) there is a connection to the Andronovo culture through the exploitation of copper and tin in the region, even pre-Andronovo cultures such as Abashevo and Petrovka. Ceramics made with the "paddle-and-anvil" technique on molds with textile impressions, tempered with crushed shells and talc/steatite, were found. origins in northeastern Kazakhstan or the southern Urals. (The World of the Oxus Civilization Cap. 24)considering the location and date, far from any South Asian center, it becomes complicated to treat the Indo-Iranians of the Middle Bronze Age as purely nomadic. Now, why the Indo-Aryan branch didn't continue this these practices It's a matter of debate.
>>18634199>>18634159I can retract what I said regarding the Indo-Iranian articles, but the Vedic people abandon the greatness of their ancestors and live like Barbarians
>>18634172>the IVC had de-urbanized long before their arrival and the relationship between Aryan and non-Aryan was found to be more complex iirFor example? Did you read that they sang hymns to Ganesha peacefully on the Ganges?
>>18634172It's funny how you pull information from your anus like saying they had an "Empire" while trying to pass yourself off as an intellectual.
I prefer to give credence to the Vedic oral tradition rather than random users from Punjab. I don't see hymns where there is talk of peaceful and loving integration between dasas and vedics sharing Soma in the forts and cities of Dasas >Rig Veda 9.73.5>The rays which were manifested in heaven and earth, illumined by the hymn (of praise), consuming the impious (sacrificers), drive away by their wisdom from earth and heaven the black-skinned hated by Indra.>Rig Veda 1.103.3>Armed with the thunderbolt, and confident in his strength, he has gone on destroying the cities of theDasyus. Thunderer, acknowledging (the praises of your worshipper) cast, for his sake, your shaft agains theDasyu, and augment the strength and glory of theĀrya.”https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/rig-veda-english-translation/d/doc830099.html
>>18634198>Even if their empire was ruled by a council of elders as opposed to a king, they must have had elected kings for easier decisionmaking.This is not how monarchies work or how they are founded, especially in early societies. You should pick some actual social history book.>It's just common sense, but maybe in your part of the world it's not very common.Of course it's "common sense", because it's stuff that laypeople believe without proper studying. Just accept you are outclassed here.
>>18634222>no argument detected>just coping and malding Ok saar great class. Go hug a train now and thanks for wasting my time
>>18634192Oh, I understand now, you are just pulling shit out of your ass, well then. Good luck with that. I hope you Asiatics enjoy talking about who raped who for ten hours.
>>18634220
>>18634225>you AsiaticsYou're barking up the wrong tree saar. And you've been wrong throughout this entire conversation.
>>18634226LMAO And I know which video you used as a reference.
>>18634229You might as well be.
>>18634233Because I proved you wrong?
>>18634226In Mahenjedaro, there were toilets with flushing systems and toilets lol modern India is infinitely closer to the Vedic people than to harrapan. Vedics lived in precarious conditions and fecated in the bushes.
>>18634224I'm not even indian and the seething and racial resentment from you says a lot. By being awake in this hour, I can guarantee you are some spic in a central american country, which makes the obssession with european cultures seem pretty sad and pathetic.I hope you can solve your issues, anon.
>>18634198In ancient Sumer, their earliest cities were ruled by temple bureaucrats, the first kings appeared a full 1000 years after the start of the civilization, and by power grabbing, not the state literally handing the power down. Monarchies are very easy to identify in the archeological record, and it usually requires a full maturity of urban civilization. You can't just handwave the existence of a monarchy. "Oh, perhaps they had a king there, you know?" It's just retarded.
>>18634264They seemed to have an obssession with higiene and cleansing by water. The largest building in Mohenjo-daro is neither a temple nor a palace, but a big bathing pool (to be fair, it could be for religious purposes, so it could be called a temple).
>>18634277Well, what about Egypt? Iirc Naqada has some evidence of monarchic rulership from the pre-historic period. And systems comparable to Monarchy could be observed in societies as unrelated as Hawaii or the Niger Basin. That said, those monarchs did leave some traces. Like the Newgrange ruler, too.>>18634284Their cities were designed with attention put to patterns of wind circulation and drainage 8and iirc you can track the development of these planning guidelines through settlements across time). The later sites (Mohenjo Daro for example) used a very well taylored template.Their settlements were small compared to the other river civilizations, though. They seemed to be less populated.
>>18634220lol retard cant read sanskrit, depends on bad deliberately mistranslated nonsense to live out his fantasies cause he never achieved anything in life.Absolute state of huwites
>>18634220Indians btfo
>>18634309>Their settlements were small compared to the other river civilizations, though. They seemed to be less populatedBut the sheer amount of cities covering a larger span of land compared to Egypt and Mesopotamia indicates that their population could be very large, if not even larger than other civs, just diluted in many smaller cities instead of concentrated in a few large ones.The Indian Subcontinent was always one of the highest populated places on Earth, so it wouldn't be surprising if IVC was already packing with people since the early Bronze Age. >The later sites (Mohenjo Daro for example) used a very well taylored template.Perhaps I remember it wrong, but Mohenjo Daro, being one of the first sites excavated, was excavated in a very poor "early 20th century archeology" style, when archeologists were just rebuilding things on spot. Because of that we unfortunately lost a lot of the nuance of the different layers of the city across time. So perhaps the city layout wasn't exactly as we see in the current site.
>>18633278Aryans were much better looking, fairer of skin, more chaddish, and genocided most of these proto-jeets to the point the vast majority of modern indiands are descendants of them and of the jeetas they sexually enslavedPeople usually prefer to associate themselves with winners and at a deeply biological level aryans are massive winners
>>18635041Sources??
>>18635041Actually the vast majority of the indians are descendants of the IVC in a larger scale than the Aryans. Both the Neolithic Iranian and the AASI ancestry are present in literally every single inhabitant of the indian subcontinent, in a larger proportion overall than the Aryan ancestry, that's only more prominent than the other two in the northern regions.You should check your informations, racial schizo.
>>18634309>Well, what about Egypt? Iirc Naqada has some evidence of monarchic rulership from the pre-historic period. And systems comparable to Monarchy could be observed in societies as unrelated as Hawaii or the Niger Basin. That said, those monarchs did leave some traces. That's what I said about leaving explicit traces. It's very easy to identify a monarchy. If the Vinca or Cucuteni cultures had one, we would know it by now. If they had "empires" like that anon said, it would be even easier to identify. Empires leave a gigantic archeological footprint, very far from what is happening here.
>>18634267>I'm not even indianSure thing saar>you are some spic in a central american country,Jeet knows even jungle spics can't stand them lmao. But you're wrong again sukhdeep
>>18635032>But the sheer amount of cities covering a larger span of land compared to Egypt and Mesopotamia indicates that their population could be very large, if not even larger than other civs, just diluted in many smaller cities instead of concentrated in a few large ones.The settlements orbiting the large cities do not demonstrate that, they are also smaller than equivalent sites in Mesopotamia.https://www.sahapedia.org/the-indus-civilization-interview-shereen-ratnagarHere is an interview with an archeologist that goes a little deeper into it. I draw from her work my hypothesis that Indus Valley Civilization was at one point one unified state, or an empire.>The Indian Subcontinent was always one of the highest populated places on Earth, so it wouldn't be surprising if IVC was already packing with people since the early Bronze Age.Most of India's population is located in the Gangetic plain and not the Indus valley. See map of 19th century Indian population density.>Perhaps I remember it wrong, but Mohenjo Daro, being one of the first sites excavated, was excavated in a very poor "early 20th century archeology" style, when archeologists were just rebuilding things on spot. Yeah. But unified traits are also observed in other sites. Your point is correct though.>>18635070Ah, sorry. That other guy just has a chip on his shoulder and isn't worth the time. He isn't familiar with the archeology and doesn't care about it.
>>18635043>>18635055>Coping jeets
>>18636504sooooo....Indians are Aryan? I doubt Aditya from 1500 BCE would care about ancestry percentages....he'd care about kinship and lineage.
>>18633278
>>18636516>he'd care about kinship and lineage.which includes ancestry you dumb retardAryaman was literally the aryan god
>>18636504So Slavs raped jeets?
>>18636779Yes
>>18636778Lmao. "Aryaman" is a relatively small sun deity that is coopted by modern hindutvas for having "arya" in his name. You are just a race obssessed retard, either from South America or Punjab. Either way, you are brown, physically and spiritually.
>>18636956I'm not this anon but allow me to humiliate you again, the only retard troll here is you apparently. Why do you write like that Brazilian with brain gangrene?>sunHere you've shown that you're not only retarded but also ignorant. Aryaman was not a solar deity. Irmin is the Old High German cognate of the Vedic deity known in Sanskrit as Aryaman. Irmin derives from the Proto-Germanic genitive *Erminiz. Compare Skt. ⟨Aryamṇáḥ pánthāḥ⟩ ‘Aryaman’s path, the Milky Way’ with OHG ⟨Irmineswagen⟩ ‘Ermin’s wagon’. The same figure appears as Érimón/Éireamhón in Irish folklore.Aryaman is associated with “Indo-Europeanness” specifically with marriage, the selection of suitable spouses, and thus with racial propagation, as well as with pathways and expansion. See pic
>>18633308> was due to the drying up of the riversAnd all of your agriculture, your cities become valueless.
>>18633347Turanians were turkic chads not shitjeets
>>18637043>you again?Who the fuck are you talking to?Genuinely schizo.Anyways, comparable indo-europeanism is a known pseudoscience based on fake etymology and coopted by race autists. Please, point me where in the Vedas is Aryaman the god that represent the aryan race. You can't, because all of this stuff was invented by a bunch of orientalists who had a very slight grasp on vedic mythos and abused phonetic similarities to create a mythological lore that never existed in the first place.And please, if you want to "humiliate" someone, try not using pop etymology to just create analogies to everything, you look like one of those those retarded turkish turanists.
>>18637043This, spammer btfo
>>18637043>Why do you write like that Brazilian with brain gangrene?Its him
