I get there were some where the communist parties were revisionist nationalists from day 1 and it was a lost cause, but not all of them were like that.They already annexed the Baltic states before the war. The whole justification for the USSR existing was that it was the multinational socialist federation that would grow to encompass Europe as national communist movements succeeded.So why did Stalin stop at creating a bloc of separate people's republics after WWII instead of incorporating the ones that actually wanted to join? And why was Königsberg annexed directly into the RSFSR rather than treated as a socialist national republic? Doesn't this ultimately undermine the USSR's claim to be something fundamentally different from a Russian Empire, while leaving separate national republics to develop their own bourgeois nationalism?
Because Stalin was too cautious (and kind hearted) he played it too safe and I mean unironically. If the Nazis had never declared war on him, the USSR would have never even expanded beyond Russia's borders
The Eastern Block was Stalin's biggest mistake. In the end it only was a trojan horse aimed at the Union itself. Direct annexation or leaving them be like Albania would have been better in every single case. If you are occupying a place at all you should go all out than halfass it.
>why did Stalin stop at creating a bloc of separate people's republics after WWII instead of incorporating the ones that actually wanted to join?Because he was playing a game to get Western Europe to join Communism too. Just directly annexing all of that territory would have damaged Communism's reputation and destabilized the Soviet Union by both having to take care of a very war-torn Eastern Europe and also oppressing a hostile population. >And why was Königsberg annexed directly into the RSFSR rather than treated as a socialist national republic?Because the area was ethnically cleansed. There was no population there to give their own republic.
>>18633687kek
>>18633673Look at the difference between the soulless judeo-bolshevik flags in the USSR and the based nationalist flags of the Stalinist puppets.
>>18633710>oppressing a hostile populationbut would they be?If the local communist parties could control these countries then why would it be any different if the local communist parties ruled their countries as constituent republics of the USSR?Among those elements of society who were willing to fight, communism was the most grass roots popular ideology in the whole of continental Europe.>Just directly annexing all of that territory would have damaged Communism's reputationwhy?If anything the USSR showing itself out to be Russian Empire 2.0 is what did the most damage to it's reputation. If they had made widespread annexations and then moved the capital westward somewhere closer to the new center of gravity it would have helped with legitimacy. Could even still be in Russia, like Smolensk.
>>18633759>local communist parties"local communist" parties consisted of jewish immigrants from soviet union / russian empire and have been thoroughly purged even before the war startedafter the war those parties relied on new transplants from soviet union, pushing too far would yield revolutions and stalin already got his ass handed to him once in polish-bolshevik war
>>18633759>If the local communist parties could control these countries then why would it be any different if the local communist parties ruled their countries as constituent republics of the USSR?The union was voluntary. The Communists in Russia and in Ukraine were both on the same page. But introducing a bunch of foreigners would completely change the vibe. It would lead to clashes and a situation like in Yugoslavia, where one faction is semi-openly separatist, whose only issue is separatism. Allowing nominally independent countries also allows them greater flexibility to deal with the situation on the ground better. The GDR for example had the highest living standards, but was so close to the west, that they only felt safe by creating the biggest and most nightmarish security apparatus of any Socialist country with half of the population being Stasi spies. You don't need that for other countries, since Slavs are used to tolerate an infinity amount of oppression and tyranny. >If anything the USSR showing itself out to be Russian Empire 2.0 is what did the most damage to it's reputation.I mean they won in a way. America destroyed their own country forever to prove they are not racist to the new states, which were carved out of the Colonial Empires of European countries. The USA always funded left-wing movements all over the world and in Europe, because they considered leftism to be so superior that the best thing they can do is to promote their own version of leftism. They made the entire world Communist, just a different flavor. It also speaks to the intellectual influence of Marxist hardliners, who manage to frame this all as a right vs left issue or the fact that only pure Marxist-Leninism is true Communism, while everything else is fake Communism. Most people today think like that. They don't even know what actually happened in the Cold War and that it was two Radical Republic competing over who inherits the world from Europe.
>>18633776>America destroyed their own country forever to prove they are not racistIf you are talking about desegregation and the later mass immigration, these are capitalist policies done to make money. If a communist government was in power it would have created autonomous negro republics within the US south, and needless to say the communist states in Europe did not have mass immigration and the populations to this day remain more culturally based than the westerners who have been soaked in the corrosive acid of cultural capitalism.American leftism is comes in two varieties. It is either liberalism to the core, which is ideological and cultural capitalism. Or it is some form of Trotskyism. Trotsky was assassinated by the USSR for a reason. Trotskyism was nonsense to begin with, but it has been distilled and refined into an ideological weapon of capitalism through what people call cultural marxism. isnt it funny that western cultural marxists do everything in their power to foreground racial and gender conflicts whilst leaving economic reform dead last? Almost like they are footsoldiers of the capitalist agenda. Western lefties are pro immigration, the source material from marx himself is clear that immigration is bad for labour and that workers should resist capitalist attempts to import cheap labour.
>>18633728I like how the nations who fought for the Axis had their flags branded over with Communist emblems, while Poland and Czechoslovakia got to keep their pre-war flags
>>18633759>Among those elements of society who were willing to fight, communism was the most grass roots popular ideology in the whole of continental Europe.It depended on where I think. I've read that communists had more grassroots support in Czechoslovakia, but the Soviets had real problems trying to keep a lid on Hungary. Also an interesting thing is how the revolt in Hungary in '56 was more just outright anti-communist (and serious, involved urban fighting) while the one in Prague in '68 was led by reform communists. Another anon mentioned Yugoslavia where the local communist partisans took power. The Red Army never reached that far, and even there relations with Stalin fell out bad by the late '40s, to the point there was real speculation that they might go to war.It was a very contradictory thing like that. Communism in theory was a progressive, internationalist, anti-imperialist movement while in practice became the ideology of a particular state and regime system, which then carried that type of system into Eastern Europe at the end of WWII at gunpoint. Like there is this language of liberation but is it really liberation if other people (from another country) are "liberating" you, and you have to do what they say. In any event, international communism was visibly cracking up by the 1950s, you started to get national communism as a compromise, then those states started going into debt because they were not economically competitive with Western Europe, and by the 1980s they were broke, and also few people even in the government apparatuses themselves believed in the ideology anymore.
>>18633872>If the local communist parties could control these countries Also this is a big "if." To emphasize this point more. It's not at all clear this was the case. Soviet troops also intervened to crush an uprising in East Berlin in 1953. Bertolt Brecht witnessed it and wrote a famous poem about how it would be simpler if the government dissolved the people and elected another one (rather than the other way around).The history is pretty fascinating but communist rule was pretty grim. Problem is a lot of people on the internet who talk about it are nerds like us, and they can either have cliche anti-communist views like people were just eating rats all the time, or they are like weeaboos for dead communist regimes from Eastern Europe. To me it reads like pretty crummy, poor, but not-too-terrible but not spectacular City-17 type police state:https://youtu.be/vATEVi9u0UgBut people still get up in the morning and go to work. Then they go home and get drunk. The issue with these police states is they did not allow any kind of civil society to exist. Just a weird top-down political system that atomized the population in a really radical way, and which was also closed to the public, highly suspect and secretive (and hypocritical) form of government, you wouldn't know what they were going to do until they announced it. So people trudge along, but resentment builds until there was a weird ambience of silent hate pervading a considerable number of people, and then it would randomly explode during a walkout / strike as a mob of angry pissed-off people attack the local communist party HQ (look up Gdansk in the early '70s) and burn it down, and then troops show up and kill several hundred people. You read about this and it's like what the fuck.
>>18633872>YugoslaviaTito was a Franco style paid agent of MI5. In fact more of a paid agent than Franco. His job was to larp as communist just convincingly enough that the genuine communists in Yugoslavia didn't overthrow him. Joining NATO would be too brazen and lead to his overthrow, so instead he made a military pact of mutual defense with two NATO countries Greece and Turkey, which was essentially joining NATO with extra steps. He was vetted by British intel during WW2 and they were convinced he had no plans to build communism, which is why they sent so much aid to the Yugoslav communist partisans. Contrast this with France where despite communists being by far the largest on the ground force, the allies refused to arm them.
>>18633898The core issue is that democratic centralism which is the core political formula of marxism-leninism has never worked because it requires a radical level of democracy and accountability within the party that real humans are not prone to. People are corrupt, and those in power are disincentivized from jeopardizing their own position so will lie and undermine democracy.Plus any resentment builds purely against the ruling party with no pressure release valve. Anglo style two party democracy is a great social technology because even through there is massive resentment against the system, the spectacle of election campaigns constantly allows people to blow off steam casting their useless votes for capitalist party red faction or blue faction.
>>18633673Well a huge part of Communist ideology was being opposed to imperialism. So the USSR, to maintain some legitimacy, needed to have the pretense of not being a conquering empire.There's also the fact that direct annexation would cause so much unrest and partisan activity when there was comparitivally no benefit.If Stalin could control Poland, Romania, Hungary, and so on, through puppet states, he would still be able to get everything he wanted out of them.Also they did take part of the carpathians
>>18633687>masses divisions at the border for some obscure reason>goes 50/50 with Der Führer on Poland>attacks Finland>"no bro we are not expanding I swear on Lenin's corpse"
I think it's funny how Ceausescu went on trip to North Korea, then came back a NazBol. He started ethnically-cleansing Hungarians, while making state programs to encourage Romanian women to have multiple children (who often ended-up in orphanages). He was basically Hitler but with le red star flag. >her is your scepter of power, my liege
>>18633673Because Churchill and Roosevelt told him not to. The whole coordination between western and eastern allies rested on such agreements. The war would have played differently if Stalin didn't agree to this beforehand and him refusing to keep the conditions would tantamount to the Soviets declaring war against the West in 1945.
>>18633673>Although Soviet Russia seeks to extend its influence by every means at its disposal, a worldwide revolution is no longer part of its agenda, and there is nothing in the internal situation of the Union that could promote a return to the old revolutionary traditions. Any comparison between the threat posed by prewar Germany and the current Soviet threat must take into account... fundamental differences... Thus, the risk of a sudden catastrophe is much lower with the Russians than with the Germans.FRANK ROBERTS, British Embassy in Moscow, to the Foreign Office, London, 1946 (Jensen, 1991, p. 56)
>>18633673Communism wasnt popular in Estern Europe outside the URSS, where various forma of hardcore nationalism were the norm. All of these puppets were entirely dependant on the soviet military to survive. Annexxing them would had just caused too many headchacesKonsberg was entirely destroyed, the population killed/escaped and replaced by Russians. Owning that small enclave was userfull to treat Europe with missiles if needed
>>18634053annexations of other states into the USSR would not be considered imperialism if they were integrated as equal members. Leninist definition of imperialism is a specific economic relationship, which is often though not always manifested as annexation. The USA for example has a larger Empire than the British Empire without having practically any of it outright annexed.
>>18634116wanted to do a land swap with Finland because as always his 'paranoia' was proven right and Finland joined the Axis coalition which invaded the USSR.
>>18634250>a worldwide revolution is no longer part of its agendaSo Stalin was a revisionist?
>>18634575>attack someone>they defend themselves>use this as proof they were always going to harm you????Russia also expanded beyond the borders MRP laid out.
>>18633803The “unpersoning” or “othering” of the Whites, who are by far the most productive and largest element of the proletariat, is done by non-workers and bourgeois.They call Whites bourgeois because White workers enjoy a higher standard of living due to being overly productive.But the resentment of the parasites on the top and the bottom wants to destroy The working class, which is undeniably overwhelmingly White and steal their wealth.Modern lefties are degenerate orcs. They’re not even true Marxists.They wouldn’t hate the working class race if they were true Marxists.
>>18633673What pro-Soviets? There was nobody like that. The party cadres were mostly brought from outside. It was colonial in nature.If you allow these other countries people into power at Moscow, they'd pursue their own interests, eventually. USSR was a centralist empire after Stalin. FR is still like that, the federalism is a joke. If Poles and Germans get to decide anything, the Russian mind explodes into confetti. Like with every other Russian state, the payoff for the citizen is a great imperial Russia, foreigners from without having a say dismantles that.
>>18633776>because they considered leftism to be so superior that the best thing they can do is to promote their own version of leftismIs this the "communists won because of wokism" meme ?>>18633673>The whole justification for the USSR existing was that it was the multinational socialist federation that would grow to encompass Europe as national communist movements succeeded.Not after WW2. This was indeed the original ambition during Lenin's time and in the early 1920s. But after Stalin took power and managed to dominate the Comintern, the USSR simply became "Russia", and the Comecon economic alliance and Comintern political "friendship" de facto replaced the USSR's whole strategy of expanding as a worldwide federation.>>18634579On the national question, somewhat.
>>18634273>URSSHola
>>18634656Within white countries browns are vastly overrepresented in low income work. The income from these jobs is too low to live on, so middle class whites are taxed and have their wealth redistributed to the bottom to subsidize low income labor. In other words, capitalists privatize the profits, but socialize the cost of paying their workers. Quite a brilliant scam really. This blatant injustice has naturally been discrediting the welfare state by design, so the victories of the labor movement are being reversed and third world squalor will become increasingly normalized and justified in the west.
>>18633673Stalin was not an ideologue. He was just the next tyrant of Russia. The communist human wave he surfed in on became his own cult. How can you forget once Germany fell Stalin wanted as much of Japan as he could get. Russia still has part of Japan Stalin gobbled.
>>18634273>All of these puppets were entirely dependant on the soviet military to surviveOh no how will we ever survive without an indefinite Soviet military occupation??
>>18634273it was popular though. It's just that these countries had a more authoritarian political environment than a place like France, so communist or adjacent parties were made illegal.
This thread is confirmation that communists neither read historical books nor have the ability to critically think.
>>18633673Because at Yalta, Stalin agreed that they would all be independent and democratic. By the time the Allies realised Stalin wasn't a very nice man, nobody had the will or care to do anything about it.
>>18634579It shouldn't come as a surprise; given his stupid idea of “socialism in one country,” it's more than clear that Stalin and Stalinism are not communist.
>>18634687>This was the original ambition during Lenin's administration and in the early 1920s.In fact, as an additional point, several German communists from the KAPD agreed (in the event of a successful revolution in Germany) that Germany should be annexed to the Soviet Union either entirely or as another republic within the Soviet Union.
>>18634575>attack country>they now want to join the anti russia teamthe russian mind truly is exceptional
>>18633776>, since Slavs are used to tolerate an infinity amount of oppression and tyranny.you're conflating slavs with russians
>>18635006Dang, I wonder why Hitler hated communism and jews and outlawed the commintern and Freemasons.
>>18635014It's unlikely that Finland would have just sat out the German invasion of the Soviet Union. The Finnish government was quite hostile to the USSR and claimed Karelia
>>18635006I've read there were also ambitions to move the capital of this big socialist federation to Berlin as soon as possible. This was during a revolutionary period though at the end of WWI and the communists were defeated in Germany so that didn't happen.
>>18635308best historical timeline.
>>18634575Gee, I wonder why Finland did that
>>18635336Hubris and dishonesty
>>18635074Russians are better people, other Slavs openly love tyranny and brutal oppression as long as it isn't Russian (as seen by how all modern nations are happily oppressed under the EU and the usa)>>18635014>country is about to attack you because they irrationally hate you>You preemptively attack themThe usa does the same btw, and worse, the usa actively tries to genocide civilian populations while Russia desperately screams with all their lungs "we are brothers, please, we are brothers". And yet Russia is more hated.
>>18635351>
>>18635333Worst timeline. Thankfully, Hitler defended Western Europe and mostly only slavs and gypsies suffered under communism until it collapsed under its own retardation.
>>18635242>preemptive strikes are ok when WE do itRussian logic is truly fascinating
>>18635414>slobo picKek do ziggers really?
>>18635308The problem with the German Revolution was that they formed the party right after the war, unlike the Bolsheviks, who had been preparing since 1905.In Hungary, it failed due to the intervention of Czechoslovakia and Romania (if the German Revolution had succeeded, they probably would have helped them)In Italy, that damned monarchy gave the Blackshirts free rein to crush the communists (if the Germans and Hungarians had emerged victorious, perhaps they would have helped).And the Polish-Soviet War, the Soviets literally lost it due to logistical incompetence and internal struggles among generals (especially between Stalin and Tukhachevsky).Damn it, a German revolutionary victory would literally have made everything work out for communism.
>>18635497who says its not fine when others do it?Problem is in both world wars germany didnt do preemptive strikes, they just invaded their neighbors despite appeals to peace
>>18635414is it even a brown or is it a common zigger?>>18635421it wasn't hitler: it was pilsudskis who stopped bolshevik invasion and in germany it was freikorps who cleaned after the spartakus revolution
hitler took no part in any of it
>>18635693you lost. Hitler was heroic defender of YVROPA. Watch Europa: The Last Battle.
>>18635705Hitler as a force for pan-Europeanism is mostly a retcon
>>18635708It is the natural result of the failure of the other right wing movements. The Italian, Spanish and British fascist movements mostly died out without leaving a political legacy: Churchill, Franco, Adenauer, DeGaulle and the other conservative right had all the power, yet were were unable to prevent their countries from liberalising: the monarchists already became a meme after the end of WW1.So what is left? Obviously the guy who the media and contemporard desperately tries to associate with WHITE (not Germanic) nationalism, conservatism and other Right wing movements. And desu, I think that's good. I don't think a national socialist Europe would have been ideal either, but at least the Nazis have an excuse for how Germany turned out, the rest of the right didn't despite being backed by the Superpower that helped bringing the Nazis to fall.
>>18634181You forgot People's Poland
>>18635727>So what is left? Obviously the guy who the media and contemporard desperately tries to associate with WHITE (not Germanic) nationalism, conservatism and other Right wing movements. Huh, that's very interesting actually... surviving nazis (Otto Remer, Degrelle) and media depicting them converged on the same narrative for different reasons.
>>18635736Chud paradise.
>>18633673"Old Testament" (1920s) USSR and "New Testament" (Stalinist) USSR are different beasts altogether. Stalin was actually the CPSU's own "nationalism expert" and studied the topic closely, he ultimately concluded that the whole rainbow nation multiculti shit wasn't gonna cut it and that some degree of assimilation and homogenization really was necessary to keep a country coherent and functional, even if it means putting the interests of his own Georgian culture behind those of the greater Russian one. He didn't necessarily care about Russian culture that much either, but as a matter of PRACTICALITY he was willing to concede that just everyone assimilating into the already largest dominant culture was the easiest path forwards towards greater integration and dissolution of divisions.Annexing the entire Eastern Bloc would be way too much to swallow however, sometimes you really can just choke on your food and he wasn't about to try and keep a pressure cooker lid on 10+ different nations with very self-conscious identities when the Red Army was already manpower depleted and the USSR was in ruins from the war's devastation.
>>18634579always wast. trot
>>18633775>"local communist" parties consisted of jewish immigrants from soviet union / russian empirewtf are you talking about, in Germany's case Walter Ulbricht, Honecker, and Mielke were all working class German-Germans with no Jewish ancestry to speak of. The only prominent Jew was Markus Wolf, who was still an irrelevant cadet at this time and worked as a radio station manager.
>>18636071Political realism is revisionism now.You can make your revolutions in backward feudal shitholes no one cares about but you're way too short to overcome any semi-organized resistance. See your early attempts in the US which were easily crashed by freaking private Pinkerton security.Communism may be attractive to literal slaves but has nothing to offer to people in normal, civilized countries. It's destructive for them even.Marx evidently had his order wrong btw, it's feudalism->communism->capitalism.
>>18633898The insane culture of paranoia and secrecy in Communist states is one thing I never "get" and wonder why it's so consistent and pervasive. Is it really just a contagion of 'Russianism' inherited from the Okhrana days and Chekists? Or is it an inevitable aspect of being in a constant state of a Robespierre-esque paranoia of reaction?
>>18634575>his 'paranoia' was proven right and Finland joined the Axis coalitionAre you for real bro hahahahLets frame it this way:>see woman>try to rape woman because uh... she might try to pepper spray me!>run off with her purse (Vyborg) after also trashing her house>woman sees me again later on>she pepper sprays me because she remembers that time I raped her>"damn look at that I was right, she was going to pepper spray me, therefore me raping her back then was the right move all along"
>>18635308Pretty much all the 'Old Bolsheviks' of the October Revolution were diehard Germanophiles and viewed Russia as a mere springboard for the "real deal" (a revolution in Germany or Britain).
>>18635089Clara Zetkin wasn't Jewish, wtf lol. Anglos just be writing anything on Wikipedia these days
>>18636108I think that would be true for Hungary. Iirc a lot of the communists put in charge were (Hungarian) Jews who had been living in the USSR. I had a thought that was a sick joke on Stalin's part to put Jews in charge of an antisemitic country to make them dependent on him for their survival.
>>18633687Tell that to Finland
>>18633817Because they were technically victors of the war
>>18633687>Finland >Estonia>Latvia>Lithuania>PolandYeah...
>>18636228He was only after lands that were controlled by Tsarist Russia
>>18636124That's right, especially the Russian left-wing communists (leftcoms). Of course, Russia was a good option for a communist revolution, but it was the last resort, you know? Obviously, the best options were France, the United Kingdom, Germany, and Italy.
>>18635089>muh Jewish communism >Looks inside>all of them were atheists who denounced Judaism
>>18634181>He started ethnically-cleansing Hungariansproofs?
>>18636110>Political realism is now a form of revisionism.In fact, yes, political realism is the favorite excuse used by Marxist-Leninists to avoid admitting that their actions were entirely anti-communist.
>>18636729Atheist Jews can still be Zionist, look at Bill Maher. They have a racial loyalty, not strictly religious.
>>18636867It was economic realism. Communism (voluntary sharing) doesn't work as living creatures simply don't do that with strangers. So the whip was "necessary" for the experiment to continue.
>>18635351>but what about americakekl
>>18636729what race where those atheists?
>>18637072Being Jewish is purely a religion not an ethnicity. The idea of a Jewish racial identity is a Zionist meme, every dna test has shown there is no such thing as Jewish dna
>>18637137so how come all those atheists look so fucking jewish?jewish eyes, jewish hair, jewish lips, jewish skull shape
>>18637137>My23AndMe said a thing, therefore centuries of jewish ethnocentrism magically stoppedgeg
>>18637284>>18637242I think what anon is saying is that jew as a distinct race doesn't exist because there are multiple jew races which are too distinct from one another to be considered the same race. Like how American doesn't exist as a race because it includes all kinds of European but also negros, siberian americans, beaners, and asians
>>18636138>I had a thought that was a sick joke on Stalin's part to put Jews in charge of an antisemitic country to make them dependent on him for their survival.You're probably not too far off there, Stalin just seems to have been ruthlessly Machiavellian in everything he did.>>18636955Yeah but Communists are by far the biggest anti-Zionist force of the 20th century, the Soviet Union and East Germany were the only relevant states arming and training the PLO and Arab states which fought against Israel. Yasser Arafat was invited to attend state ceremonies in East Berlin and Moscow but not anywhere else in the "anti-Communist" world.
>>18633673Stalin is stupid.
