Now that the dust has settled down, was it worth it?
The world would be better off with a modern Roman state in Anatolia.
>>18642775>roman>parasitic reekoidsPick oneAnd no, the world is much bettet without judeochristian pigskin filth in rightful MENA lands
Also I'm trans btw
>>18642777Ew, you're one to talk about filth
>>18642768Eh probably. The ERE was going down the drain anyway and even if the latin empire was ass Venice did use its naval hldings to hold back the ottos for centuries.
>>18642768The Rashidun conquests (632-661) made the ERE into a Balkan-Anatolian Empire instead of a Mediterranean empire, but chiefly it was always an Anatolian empire with a network of coastal holdings in Greece and southern Italy. The Empire was very strong and secure in 1025 after the reign of Basil II, which demonstrated that it did not need to be as it was under Justinian to be one of the foremost european states. Additionally Basil II had conquered the balkans, which beforehand had always been a weak holding. The issue is that the balkans was like a colonial holding, with many ethnic groups due to its position geographically, connected to the vast Eurasian steppe corridor wide open to historical invasions which the Bulgarians and Magyars came through, and the south slavs from the north, etc, which made it an unstable region. It had to be governed by a stable and strong power.The loss of central Anatolia to the Seljuks after the Battle of Manzikert in 1071 was their death flag. They had from 1071 until 1204, the Fourth Crusade which was the straw to break the camel's back, to recover that lost land. It's ironic because for nearly 500 years they had successfully defended Anatolia from the 3 major successive Arab caliphates, yet failed against the Seljuks, even after one of their peaks of prosperity. Civil war until 1081 because Romanos IV was captured, which made Manzikert's losses much worse, and then the Komnenos finally come in. The crucial reigns over the next century were Alexios, John II, and Manuel, leading the Komnenian restoration. The issue is that the restoration was a failure. They never resecured Anatolia as thoroughly at it needed to be. Then the conditions that would lead to the unravelling of the empire- central government instability- inevitably happened. They no longer had a heartland, so once someone else came in, they lost everything. It's rare an incompetent state loses so thoroughly as they and it's because of this migration.
>>18642768Fuck off troon
>>18642932tourist
>>18642768The incompetence of the crusaders at varna is really quite astonishing.
>>18642913A shame the Rashidun didn't fully kick the reeks out of Anatolia and Arabized the region before the Turks came
>>18642913>yet failed against the Seljuks, even after one of their peaks of prosperityInteresting, mind sharing some knowledge about what was special about this one invasion in particular, and why they couldn't manage to retake the occupied Anatolia?
>>18642955Don't you have some 9 year old bacha bazi to plow, pakijeet?
>>18642768Bulgaria and Serbia were already independent by 1204 and Mongols rape the Turks creating fragmented beyliks who push west into Byzantine territory with their demographic advantage anyway. Blaming 1204 is cope.
>>18642954>at varna>quite astonishingWhat's astonishing about it? They were massively outnumbered and still close to winning, the 20 y/o king just made one bad call and threw
>>18643014>massively outnumberedLol, lmfao evenJudeochristians rats lie like is sport to them
>>18642768Should have paid denbts.500+ years later and still didn't learn their lesson
>>18642965>what was special about this one invasion in particularThe unique nature of the enemy and geography they were facing. The Turkic tribes were pastoral nomads migrating from deeper inland via horseback from the Eurasian steppe across a dedicated channel through northern iran, escaping conflict and competition against other equestrian tribes, and intentionally settling in the central Anatolian plateau. They would bring over their families, sheep and goats, tents, etc while constantly moving and never permanently settling. The Seljuk invasion and the Ilkhanate made this migration even easier. You could not simply defeat their local capital eg. and be done with them, because they didnt have one until later. Neither could you stop the migration, because they were coming from thousands of miles away, like a long-distance enemy. It was not necessarily that the Ottomans didn't know how to deal with horse archers as they had some themselves and had often fought other groups like the Pechenegs in the past.The Arab caliphates were sedentary imperial states, which had to conquer the centralised government structure of the ERE through sieging the capital Constantinople directly, which they had failed to do twice. Whereas the Turkic tribes simply slowly etched their territory out of Anatolia by immediately settling in whatever region they could and submitting the much larger local population to their rule, which was hard to undo in addition. This was something the Arabs could not achieve despite conquering almost the entire middle east in less than a century and converting it to Islam. Of course the invention of gunpowder and cannons was what enabled the successful siege of the previously impenetrable walls of Constantinople, but they had been successful in dismantling the entire empire before sieging Constantinople. People place a lot of significance on the Fourth Crusade, and while it mattered, it was still largely geography. Also peak art btw. Saved.
The main loss was greater Greek civilisation, which certainly would have been more desirable as a state in Anatolia. I think the Balkans unfortunately was unlikely, simply due to geography, to ever have stability in the first place even without Ottoman occupation. At the same time, western Europeans would go onto colonise over 1/3 of the worlds land area in large part due to the Ottoman empire forcing them to look for alternative trade routes, and Russians went onto conquer large swathes of Asia, together almost 50% of the worlds land area. Anatolia is only 0.15% of the worlds land area.
>>18643021They were outnumbered 3:1. On wikipedia theres 2 figures given, 60k vs 20k, or 60k vs 45-55k. The latter figure is a composite one given by multiple authors living at completely different times, clearly to intentionally inflate their figures as much as possible, whereas the 20k figure is given by a single author that was an eye witness and other authors. Additionally, factoring in the other events and general strategy of the crusade, it would cease to make sense. The operation began with an allied christian fleet protecting the Turkish straits to prevent a large crossing of men on transport ships into europe, thereby isolating the Turkish forces stationed in Europe from those in asia, and making it an easy fight. The issue was that the fleets were poorly coordinated, Venice's advice was ignored, and Murad simply crossed at the under defended Bosporus instead of the Dardanelles, which the Genoese even assisted the Ottomans in doing. Additionally Hunyadi's forces arrived late in coordination to resupply the fleets. Władysław's youthful bold decision to charge the sultan against orders was utterly stupid though and too risky. It is possible they could have won if he did not make that decision, or at the very least if they still lost it would've been far more favourable casualties.
>>18642768No, it wasn’t worth it, but the Greeks deserved everything and it was their fault.
>>18643021>this from the guy who jacks off to arab '''sources''' telling us about a topless arab who killed one gorillion byzantines and persians
Why do trannies love that retarded blonde fuzzy eyebrow look?
It's unironically always the westoid niggers.Even now and after WW2.
>>18643142>The latter figure is a composite one given by multiple authorsVirtually every single one of them being on the judeochristian side Virtually half of the European peninsula of Asia against a single Sultanate and you have the audacy to claim such absurd?
>>18643093What would've been more desirable is the Rashidun or Abbassids completely destroying the greek state and arabizing istanbul and anatolia
>>18643093It's about quality, not quantity. Anatolia is prime land. Siberia is/was worthless, only point to it today is extraction of minerals and fossil fuels.
>>18642768The crippling of Byzantium ensured Outremer would have no local protector, while causing a power vacuum that the Turks would move to seize. A total disaster, as the Latin Empire failed to establish itself as a replacing bulwark.
>>18643039>Should have paid denbts.>500+ years later and still didn't learn their lesson
>>18644432Almost agree with this take (although I cant because without the ERE, the islamification of europe would've been more prevalent especially in the balkans), because one of my main issues with turkish is it's a language and culture originally of tribes inhabiting the steppe. With only about 500 years where it could possibly develop a high culture and I dont think it did. They were originally barbarians stumbling upon a culture at that time of 2000 years of age, not only that but Greek high civilisation. One of the strange things about MENA is the way the 3 great languages, Arabic, Persian, and Turkish each belong to entirely different linguistic families making the kind've cultural community of the IE european languages less feasible. Today, Arabic has about 1500 years of settled urban state development and Persian with about 2500 years. Persian is definitely the prestige scientific and artistic language of MENA, but followed relatively close by arabic as the language of the Quran. It would've been much more interesting if they had assimilated to Greek themselves, and massively kino desu to have a Greek-speaking Islamic state, but also that would've been highly unlikely. Persian would've been very nice, say if they became more persianate alongside when the tribes were islamised in the first place, or even Arabic of course would've been preferable but even less realistic. Turkish in the end was the only feasible language. The switch to latin script in the 20th century was absolutely awful even Im against that myself because what's the point of all that effort if you're just going to westernise and sever links with what should be your brothers in religion? Although I know turks also sort've see themselves as white amongst MENA. Admittedly the empire fell because it could not adapt to western ideas in time. Which is one of the reasons why I think Greek could've been a more successful language overall for the mentality of the empire and its innovation.
>>18642768The Greek Empire fell, because it always considered the West their true enemy. This led to disastrous western military campaigns. Every time they tried to go west, they would lose more and more in the east. This led to bizarre situations where they were unconcerned about all of Anatolia being raided and occupied by Turkish tribes, while doing a stand off with the Normans. Of course if you just leave the Turks to occupy your country for over a decade, they will eventually organize themselves and create state-like structures. This permanently broke their back, but it wasn't an accident. It was a core part of their strategic thinking and cultural attitude.
No.However considering the freefall of Islam in Tůřķëŷ I think the time is ripe for a restoration.Russia must send many legions to Armenia to destroy the wicked state of Gog at long last and bring the light of Christ back to Anatolia.Thank you for your attention to this matter!
>>18644612>Today, Arabic has about 1500 years of settled urban state development and Persian with about 2500 years. Persian is definitely the prestige scientific and artistic language of MENA, but followed relatively close by arabic as the language of the Quran... Persian would've been very nice, say if they became more persianate alongside when the tribes were islamised in the first place, or even Arabic of course would've been preferable but even less realistic. Turkish in the end was the only feasible language.The funny thing is, Ottoman Turkish was basically Turkish, Arabic AND Persian all rolled into one mega-language. If the word existed in Persian or Arabic, it could be used in Ottoman Turkish. If a grammatical construction existed in Persian or Arabic, it very often could be used in Ottoman Turkish. Mastery of the language functionally required fluency in Arabic, Persian and the Turkish vulgate used by the Anatolian peasantry. This was why Ataturk felt he had to destroy Ottoman Turkish and effectively recreate the Turkish language anew. Beyond reasons of nationalism, the level of polyglot erudition required to master Ottoman Turkish meant the elites and regular folk were functionally speaking different languages. You see the effects of this in early Republican Turkish literature (e.g. Vurun Kahpeye, Yaban), where educated city folk write about the incredible feeling of alienation they had interacting with their Anatolian countrymen. >It would've been much more interesting if they had assimilated to Greek themselves, and massively kino desu to have a Greek-speaking Islamic state, but also that would've been highly unlikelyI think this would have been fascinating. The best chance of this happening is Mehmed II, who was a massive Hellenophile, changing the courtly language when he conquers Constantinople. Greek then returns to being the prestige language and the Turkified Anatolian peasantry switches back to Greek, possibly even leading to pic related
>>18642913>Civil war until 1081 because Romanos IV was captured, which made Manzikert's losses much worseThis is what weakened the Eastern Roman empire so much after Manzikert. Manzikert alone would have been just an unfortunate event if the capture of Romanos IV hadn't led to so much infighting in Constantinople. However the Eastern Roman empire was still a strong state up until Myriokephalon. >>18644979>Of course if you just leave the Turks to occupy your country for over a decade, they will eventually organize themselves and create state-like structures.That's not so straightforward. A successful transition from a nomadic horseback empire into an urban state is a very rare thing in history; most of those transition attempts (e.g. Avars, Xiongnu, Mongols, Uyghurs, Pechenegs, Tatars, Xianbei, Huns, Scythians...) usually ended in disaster, foreign conquest and/or genocide. As far as I know, only Hungarians and Turks have been able to pull that off into the modern world, i.e. being ancient horse-riding nomads who settled in a foreign fertile land, stayed there with their original culture and language, gave up on the nomadic idiocy, and eventually became normal countries like their neighbours until the present day, instead of getting the Dzungar/Jié/Khitan treatment in the process. I'd also consider Bulgarians, even though they force-assimilated themselves into the Christian Slavs they conquered. I guess that's a valid strategy too.btw the fact that Age of Empires II Byzantines speak Latin instead of Greek always triggered my autism
>>18644979I don’t think this is a fair picture. Both the Turks and Latins were threats, with the latter concern vindicated by the 4th crusade. Additionally Alexios and John Komnenos had a good relationship with the West, and had practically barreled the Seljucks in to the point of near destruction. Manuel Komnenos was the disaster, with his inconclusive campaigns against Hungarians, Normans, and attempting to get into the Guelph/Ghibeline Conflict. He wasted the initiative his father and grandfather gave him with scatter brained vast imperial ambitions.
>>18642768>>18642965Source of the drawings?
>>18644432This inbred spammer is still here? Lol
>>18642777>And no, the world is much bettet without judeochristian pigskin filth in rightful MENA landsInstead we have the other Torah fanfiction.
>>18642768Byzantine bitch is BAD, now wonder slavs came to balkans to rape and turks wanted a piece of that
>>18647567https://x.com/anonhistory
>>18644431>the European peninsula of AsiaThe levels of butthurt and insecurity coming off this post are palpable lmao
>>18642768Christcucks wnbrThey can't create because evil can only destroy
>>18647973I'll defend you, WRE-chan.
>>18642768what happened?
>>18650291
>>18642913>but chiefly it was always an Anatolian empire with a network of coastal holdings in Greece and southern ItalyChiefly it was the city of Constantinople to the exclusion of everything else. If losing a province without putting up a fight made things slightly more convenient for the elites in the capital, then that province was out of luck.
>>18652039>If losing a province without putting up a fight made things slightly more convenient for the elites in the capital, then that province was out of luck.Imaginary scenario of something that literally never happened.
>>18642768>>18642965It reminds me of this mangaSadly, there are only 38 chapters translated into English (they're one page) with almost 300 chapters in russian moonrunes.
I don't think the dust has settled. But the 4th Crusade essentially sealed the fate of the Romans, as surviving of the mercy of other rulers.
>>18652767Nips are notoriously historically illiterate, so just look at the pretty pictures and be happy.
