I propose a new system. It's pretty simple:If an action you are about to do will result in somebody, you or anyone else, in pain or suffering, then it is not the right action to do. Another, better action, such that it does not result in someone, you or anyone else, in pain or suffering, should be found and done. Only such actions should be done. No action that results in somebody in pain or suffering, can be called good. Only such actions that don't result in pain and suffering can be called good, and only beings that do such actions can be called good.So to summarize, we only do good things, so that everything works properly, as it should, so that nobody gets hurt as a result of things not working properly (as it is now).
You must be 16 or something. Good is subjective. If i have a friend that talks too much and i find annoying should i tell him to talk less, hurting him? should i leave the company, hurting him? or should i endure, getting hurt? Most of the times one must choose the action that causes less pain, but there's no good action available
>>18644618Most gym activities objectively contain pain and suffering. Are kickboxing coaches now morally worse than most shoplifters?
>>18644622>If i have a friend that talks too much and i find annoyingSuch a friend wouldn't be able to exist in this system, as his action would result in your suffering, so this action wouldn't have been performed in the first place.
>>18644624>Most gym activities objectively contain pain and suffering.Pain tells us that something is wrong. If i do something, and it causes me pain, that means that what i am doing is wrong, and that i should stop doing it. If i do something right, then it does not result in me feeling pain. We want to do things the right way, not the wrong way.
>>18644630I've read the OP. I'm asking how it applies to Kickboxing coaches.
>>18644634There would be no kickboxing. There is no reason to get anyone hurt.
>>18644632
>>18644639You win this round, but there are many rounds to come.
>>18644635There are thousands of reasons for fitness training, including kickboxing. Optimalism seems to lead to false conclusions. It must thus be rejected.
>>18644654>Optimalism seems to lead to false conclusions.No. Optimalism would lead to a world without kickboxing. There is no reason to get anyone hurt.
>>18644661>There is no reason to get anyone hurt.False. Hence optimalism is rejected.
>>18644618>If an action you are about to do will result in somebody, you or anyone else, in pain or suffering, then it is not the right action to doUtilitarianism is right there, nigger.>but muh sufference is not muh happinessShow me that sufference is never required, because i would argue fighting in a war it's needed sometimes.
>>18644663>wanting to hurt othersWell, you would also be rejected in Optimalism, so yeah...>>18644672Why would you need to fight a war?
>>18644630>Pain tells us that something is wrong. If i do something, and it causes me pain, that means that what i am doing is wrong, and that i should stop doing it. If i do something right, then it does not result in me feeling pain. We want to do things the right way, not the wrong way.I think you'd appreciate nurgle's blissful decadence.Life is also about growing and growing is painful, otherwise you just rot away.
>>18644675>Life is also about growing and growing is painfulIf you do it the wrong way it might be, yes. Do it the right way, so that it isn't painful.
>>18644674>>wanting to hurt othersAlso false. Optimalism has yet to produce a single correct conclusion in this entire thread. Optimalism hence ough to be rejected.
>>18644676Another false conclusion of optimalism. Birth, even done the right way, features pain.
>>18644674>Why would you need to fight a war?Because war could be defense, war could be opportunity, and expansion is insurance for the future.
>No pain pls>Yes that's called a system
>>18644677>>>wanting to hurt others>Also false.Kickboxing would result in pain and suffering. You want there to be kickboxing, therefore you want to get others and/or yourself hurt. I'll compromise and allow kickboxing if it is done the right way, so that it does not result in pain and suffering.
>>18644676>Do it the right way, so that it isn't painful.You're just another fool in the fools corner, the only way to not feel pain is to kill yourself. In addition optimalism is a shit name for such philosophy since optimization is a completely different concept from pain. Nature optimizes regardless of pain.
>>18644679>defenseWhy would you need to defend yourself?
>>18644687There is no reason, i'm gonna rape your ass and you will let me to because you're an optimalist bro.
>>18644618Yes I should never get out of bed, it results in pain and suffering however I will use the internet and various digital devices that millions of people should slave over for decades to make. Incredible
>>18644690People that rape asses can not exist in optimalism.
>>18644683>and/or yourself hurtI appreciate the concession. Optimalism is on its way to produce its first valid conclusion yet.>I'll compromise and allow kickboxing if it is done the right way, so that it does not result in pain and suffering.Again, virtually all fitness activities result in pain and suffering. Kickboxing, wrestling, weightlifting, rowing, sprinting, cycling, rugby and even pilates, you will suffer during all of them. And it's a trade worth making. If you think you can avoid suffering by never getting fit, that's your gamble to make. Check in in your 50s to tell me how it worked out for you. Until then, optimalism is rejected by virtue of consistently leading to false conclusions.
>>18644693They can because they feel good.
>>18644694The rules of optimalism are clear. If it would result in pain and suffering, it doesn't belong. What i gather is that people want there to be pain and suffering. People want to feel bad, and want others to feel bad as well. Why the hate?
>>18644711>Why the hate?Because of the false conclusions optimalism consistently seems to produce.
>>18644711Why did you re-iterate the premise that was being challenged instead of addressing the challenge? Were you hoping to diminish suffering somehow?
>>18644711>What i gather is that people want there to be pain and suffering. People want to feel bad, and want others to feel bad as wellPeople don't want anything, pain is just part of life and therefore part of the human experience. Pain sometimes trigger pleasure and leads to success because it's bound to sacrifice.
>>18644715What's the challenge? You go on about fitness. Ask yourself if it would result in pain or suffering, and you will know if it is good and if it can exist in optimalism or not. That's it.
>>18644729>What's the challenge?That fitness is ruled out despite there being legitimate reasons to do it. >Ask yourself if it would result in pain or suffering, and you will know if it is good and if it can exist in optimalism or not. That's it.I'm aware. The challenge is That fitness is ruled out despite there being legitimate reasons to do it.
>>18644718>People don't want anything, pain is just part of life and therefore part of the human experience.People don't just happen. It is known that if you make a child, the child will suffer. The ones who decided that a child should be born are the ones that wanted the child to suffer.
Of course it's an anti-natalist thread. I was wondering where I've seen this autistic approach before>I like [thing], oversimplified>it's called a system, lil bro>reality must yield, the theory must never be refinedAm I the only one who didn't spot it at first?
>>18644741>anti-natalistIt's not anti-natalist. In optimalism children that wouldn't suffer and feel pain would be born. There would be no danger of pain and suffering ever occurring in optimalism, since things that result in pain and suffering couldn't exist. Only those things that don't result in pain and suffering would exist. The good things.
>>18644618>If an action you are about to do will result in somebody, you or anyone else, in pain or suffering, then it is not the right action to do. Doctors and veterinarians are going to super mega hell.
>>18644750Anon, what are you describing? In the OP it seemed like you're proposing an ethical system but now it just seems you're reiterating a dream about an altenative universe. What are you trying to get across in this thread?
>>18644736Ah so you are an antinatalist. You let the mask slip off.If life is bad why not kill yourself?
>>18644618False premise. What specifically is wrong with pain or suffering?
>>18644774They feel bad. Bad is not good.
>>18644762>antinatalistUmmm, where did you get that from? Where did i say that children shouldn't be born? I stated the truth. Parents know that if they have children, the children will suffer. They can not say that they didn't know that the child will suffer, it would be a lie. It was known that the child would suffer. If the parents didn't want the child to suffer, they had the power to prevent it. So a logical conclusion is that if a child is born they wanted him to suffer. Is anything i said not true?
>>18644811Everything you said follows from its carefully selected premises. And they're precisely the narrow anti-natalist selection. Let me return your question to you - where did you get that from?
>>18644781Are feelings fundamental to reality?
>>18644814Is it not true? Where is the lie? >>18644822What do you mean? Can you decide how you are going to feel? I don't think you can. Can you decide not to feel pain? As far as i know, short of not letting it manifest in the first place, there is no defense against pain. Once you let it exist it's over and you lost, it will do its job and hurt you and make you feel bad. If you feel bad you don't feel good. Optimalism would solve all this.
>>18644830>Is it not true? Where is the lie?I have just answered this and asked you a question back. What produced this extremely narrow and pointed set of premises?>>18644830>What do you mean?I mean the "feel" part of "they feel bad". Why are feelings the key focus?>Optimalism would solve all this.You never answered >>18644760 so I don't really know what this means. That in an alternative universe, which works as per optimalism, things would work as per optimalism? That if we insist on elimination of "feeling bad", biology will make birth pleasurable? What are you saying here, practically?
>>18644833>I mean the "feel" part of "they feel bad". Why are feelings the key focus?What do you mean key focus? What is the alternative? Can i decide to not feel pain? >>18644833>That in an alternative universe, which works as per optimalism, things would work as per optimalism? That if we insist on elimination of "feeling bad", biology will make birth pleasurable? What are you saying here, practically?Yes basically. Delete everything that is bad, so that only the good remains. Better yet just don't make bad things in the first place. Just make good things, that's it.Also you can't claim benevolence and then do something that results in suffering.>>18644760I'm trying to explain to people that we are doing most of the things in life wrongly, incorrectly. Because you're all masochists, borderline evil, and you're not aware how bad people feel because of suffering and pain. And you insist on keeping doing these things and hurting people. No effort is made to find the right way of doing things, so that they do not result in pain and suffering.
>>18644866>>I mean the "feel" part of "they feel bad". Why are feelings the key focus?>What do you mean key focus?I mean that you only focused on one singluar thing in the entirety of >>18644781. Feeling bad (ie not good). It doesn't get much more key focus than that. My question is "why this focus?">What is the alternative? Can i decide to not feel pain?See? The feeling is still your focus. Your question is "speaking of the feeling and the feeling alone, what else is to be done with it besides xyz?". I'm challening the fact that you decided to focus specifically on feelings.>>That in an alternative universe...>Yes basicallyThen this thread is less about philosophy and more about fiction. I recommend moving it to /lit/.>I'm trying to explain to people that we are doing most of the things in life wrongly, incorrectly.Nope. As per your answer above, you're narrating a fictional universe that yields to a trivially oversimplified axiom. Nobody in this thread is in charge of deciding whether aging or birth are painful and if that's what you think you're arguing against, I suggest /x/.In the original post you propose a "system" and I was confused what kind of a system that would be. It's not an ethical system, because it has us forsake objectively good things like healthy fitness. It is not a social system because nobody socially engineered aging. It's not a philosophical system because it produces no insight. It seems you really just are presenting an antinatalism-adjacent fiction and like every good anti-natalist you are having a tough time reflecting on your premises. The rest of this thread will move nowhere.
>>18644883>The feeling is still your focus. Your question is "speaking of the feeling and the feeling alone, what else is to be done with it besides xyz?". I'm challening the fact that you decided to focus specifically on feelings.What do you mean decided to focus on feelings? There is no focus, feelings just are. There is no decision to be made. I can not decide to not feel. I don't understand. If we keep doing things that result in pain and suffering, then people will continue to feel bad. I don't understand why do you people want others to feel bad. We should focus our efforts into improving our lives. >>18644883>because it has us forsake objectively good things like healthy fitnessIt's fascinating to me how you people seem to magically and easily transform something that feels bad into something good. Life must be easy if you can just decide how you're going to feel.
>>18644618That's just a variation on utilitarianism.
>>18644914>There is no decision to be made.You don't get to decide what your sentences and thoughts are about? >feelings just areMillions of things "just are". The also just are missing from >>18644781. Being a conscious agent comes with limited attention. If you cannot for the life of you reflect on why you pay attention to feelings and feelings alone when drafting this fictional universe, then your though has artistic merit at most. Philosophically it's dead.
>>18644781>They feel badWho is "they"? I just got done lifting weights. My muscles feel sore and thus technically are in pain and by your logic "they feel bad" but I personally feel good. So which is it?
>>18644814Yes it is a lie since you are implying they will only suffer and not experience joy. Which life is full of joy and even out weighs all suffering.
>>18644914>something that feels bad into something goodYes. When I got for a run in the moment I feel tired but after I feel excellent. Why are you so focused on short term pleasure rather than long term pleasure?
>>18644618This is Star Trek tier non aggression principle anarchoncapitalist / libertarian philosophy jargon.Of course everyone agrees to want to go to paradise. But it doesn’t happen. Someone breaks the law. This is why we have Jesus to get out of Hell.See the pictur? The trash can you drew is basically hell. To the furnace.My internet cable company used to be called all sorts of things in the beginning. They keep selling it and flipping the company. I guess Jim Carrey as cable guy did something to it, idk. But now they call their selves Optimum. They used to do cable email, till gmail came out, and then they just gave up. I called them and asked could I have more than 50 Megabytes of storage space for my email that I had since forever. Back in when cable internet was new here. They said no, my mom’s email gets all the storage because mine is a second hand account and they don’t support email anymore, they just keep it barely running for people who still have accounts. And I noticed that our emails are constantly bonbarded with spam and bots. Occasionally someone even does something evil and pretends to be sending emails from our own email like something is hacked in to it. We’ve called and let them know but they just don’t care.I remember when people used to develop their own software for computing for local businesses. People still have those softwares still running , because it’s optimum , working faster than a Microsoft Windows PC. Bill Gates somehow knows but wants it this way. It’s just laziness in the industry. People wanted to just have a job and collect a paycheck and not actually get their work done. So now what happened is you end up with stuff like Gmail, yahoo, etc. Big Tech. Not your local computing, which actually used to be humble, yet fruitful. It’s more of a blind spot thing. In God’s Kingdom there is no blind spots. That’s what rudolf the rednosed reindeer nose lighting the way for Santa Claus. That and my wife.
>>18644627pointless silliness inapplicable to the real world
>>18644931>You don't get to decide what your sentences and thoughts are about?Well yes i do. Sentences and thoughts usually don't make me feel bad though. They also can't help with pain and suffering, so i fail to see the point.>>18644941>Who is "they"?Pain and suffering.>>18644941>My muscles feel sore and thus technically are in pain and by your logic "they feel bad" but I personally feel good. So which is it?Idk you tell me. It seems to me you kike feeling pain, or pain feels good to you. I don't understand either way. Whenever i feel pain i feel bad, pain hurts, that's what it does. >>18644945>since you are implying they will only suffer and not experience joyNo i didn't imply that, i said that they will suffer, that's it.>Which life is full of joy and even out weighs all suffering.Full of it? Perhaps you have a lucky life full of joy, i don't sadly. Doubt about outweighing...>>18644951>Why are you so focused on short term pleasure rather than long term pleasure?What's the longest you have felt pleasure?
>>18645063>kike*like>>18644931>If you cannot for the life of you reflect on why you pay attention to feelings and feelings alone when drafting this fictional universe, then your though has artistic merit at most.How can i not pay attention to feelings? Can i ignore them? Can you? I don't understand. Do you people not care how you feel?
>>18644945>and even out weighs all suffering.It does nothing in regards to suffering. It doesn't nullify it, it doesn't dampen it, it doesn't minimize it, it doesn'tmake it feel any better. You still suffer and feel bad. Damage is still being done.
>>18645063>>You don't get to decide what your sentences and thoughts are about?>Well yes i do.Perfect. I am asking about the decision behind >>18644781 being only about feelings. How do you justify that decision?>>18645078>How can i not pay attention to feelings?I'm not asking you to stop paying attention to anything. I'm asking you what made you focus on feelings alone in >>18644781.We agree that feelings exist. We agree that feelings matter. We agree that feelings should be considered. We don't agree that feelings ALONE should be considered. So I'm asking you why you consider feelings alone in >>18644781
>>18644883>what kind of a system that would be. It's not an ethical system, because it has us forsake objectively goodWell if we stuck to this system we would gradually eliminate all the bad things. Nobody even wants to hear about it so there is no hope of things ever getting better. I guess we're not allowed to win here. Why even try if you can never succeed... Maybe i should give up as well.
>>18644618Defending yourself becomes bad in this system, which it obviously isn’t. Also, most things in life that are worth anything require some amount of pain and suffering to achieve, ie working out to not be a fat faggot slob can be painful. Pain and suffering alone isn’t a bad thing. This system also means there’s no system of justice that can exist alongside it. You have no society if you can’t inflict pain and suffering on bad actors to protect good actors. Pain and suffering could be shooting someone about to shoot up a school. That’s justified pain and suffering that should be dealt and not dealing it would be plainly bad.
>>18645091>Nobody even wants to hear about itWe will listen all day. As long as you call it what it really is - fiction. You're upset as though /his/ owes you an applause for saying "begone bad feelings" and pretending it's a "system". And you're jilted as though someone in this thread was holding a lever to painless aging and just refused to pull it. What reaction did you envision when you clicked Post?
>>18645090>I am asking about the decision behind >>18644781 (You) # being only about feelings. How do you justify that decision?What else is there? I don't think i understand what you want from me.>>18645090>I'm asking you what made you focus on feelings alone in >>18644781 (You) #.>>18645090>We don't agree that feelings ALONE should be considered. So I'm asking you why you consider feelings alone inWhat else is there? You're in pain, feeling bad. You weren't wise enough to be able to avoid it, so you get punished for it.
>>18645105>What reaction did you envision when you clicked Post?Empathy? >As long as you call it what it really is - fiction.Should i call people what they are as well then - evil?
>>18645111>>I am asking about the decision behind >>18644781 (You) # being only about feelings. How do you justify that decision?>What else is there? You don't know what else exists in the world besides feelings?>>18645120>Should i call people what they are as well then - evil?It's your fiction, call them what you will.
>>18645120You proposed a poorly thought out idea and you were going to find out sooner or later. And it was going to feel bad. If people had empathy, they would feel bad for you too, producing more suffering. Optimalism, in this case, rejects empathy. You have indirectly asked people to not be empathetic in this thread.
>>18645140>You don't know what else exists in the world besides feelings?Anon asked me what is wrong with pain and suffering. I said that they feel bad. Then you went on about me only focusing on feelings.... I don't understand what you want from me now.
>>18645152Let's go step by step then. Step 1: Do you know that there are other things in reality besides feelings?
>>18645148If people had empathy they would understand how i feel. They might even agree with my proposed system then and perhaps start implementing it. I got fooled by myself again it seems, foolishly hoping that things could get better.
>>18645158>besides feelingsYes. Go on.
>>18645159See? Optimalism instructs me NOT to have empathy right now because I would feel bad for you. Are you satisfied with how optimalism is performing?
>>18645163Outstanding.Does optimalism apply criteria to judge whether an action should be done?
>>18645165My mistake regarding empathy i guess.
>>18645166Umm, yes. Huh?
>>18645169Well it's either your mistake regarding empathy, or your mistake presenting a "system" that limits it. If you insist on the latter and are willing to sacrifice empathy for it, that's your choice reallly.
>>18645170>Umm>Huh?I'm sensing some confusion already. What part of the question was unclear?
>>18645173I'm just wondering where you're going with this.
>>18645174Alright. >>Does optimalism apply criteria to judge whether an action should be done?>yesAre feelings among the criteria?
>>18645178Yes they are.
>>18645194Perfect. Are there any other criteria besides feelings? For example dignity, reputation, enlightenment, body mass index, life meaning, wealth, the ratio of toes to fingers... anything?
>>18645199>dignity, reputation, enlightenment, body mass index, life meaning, wealth, the ratio of toes to fingers... anything?Well, indirectly yes, since the condition is that actions shouldn't result in pain and suffering. Lack of dignity (or damage to it), bad reputation etc would result in suffering so it's sort of all encompassing.
>>18645234>it's sort of all encompassingIt sort of isn't, since you can completely abandon or downright ruin your reputation without a second of suffering. Note the question says "besides feelings". If there are feelings about reputation, that would not really be something "besides feelings". Keeping that in mind, are there any other criteria besides feelings?
>>18645345The general idea is that things and beings would work properly, as they should, without any mistakes. Optimally. Everything stems from that, and the result should be no suffering and pain. I'm pretty fit actually, but i treat exercise as having fun. I don't strain myself too much, i don't want to injure myself, that would prevent me from having fun in the future. So i pay attention to what my body is telling me. If i feel pain i know i'm doing things incorrectly, and i can't have fun if i'm in pain. If i do things correctly i know i will at most be a little tired, but that's not pain. Not feeling bad is top priority, as long as you don't feel bad i can do many different things and eventually one of them is going to make me happy. Feeling bad does not make me happy.
>>18645415Anon, are there any other criteria besides feelings?
>can't shoot someone raping a toddler because the rapist would suffer
>>18645063Is all suffering and pain 100% equal to you? Yes or no and explain your reasoning.
>>18645503Yes. It all feels bad. Am i supposed to suffer in colors or what? There's different kinds of pain, all of them feel bad. I would feel better without them, life would be better.>>18645438How would a rapist exist in such a system? He can't.
>>18645566>How would a rapist exist in such a system? He can't.I'm afraid rapists don't ask your or your system's permission to do it. That's sorta their thing.
>>18645569The system itself wouldn't allow for rapists to exist. This requires a God to work, he would be the one who would plan everything, and since rapists would result in pain and suffering, he just wouldn't create them. He would only create good people.
>>18645575>This requires a God to workSo this whole thread is you seething that our world isn't perfect huh?
>>18645575Anon, are there any other criteria besides feelings?
>>18645580>seethingIt's sadness. Deep profound sadness.>>18645581Why do you keep asking this?
>>18645566>Am i supposed to suffer in colors or what?Pain is a spectrum to normal people. A vast majority of people will take the very small amount of suffering of feeling tired and sore to feel the pleasure of being healthy. Let me ask you, do you leave the house at all? Why? You might experience pain and suffering leaving the house? This is your logic. It is nonsensical. Due to life everyone needs to feel a little bit of pain and suffering and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.I guess you have some special condition where a stubbed toe feels 100% exactly the same as getting skinned alive.
>>18645596>sadnessAppeal to emotion. Just because something makes you sad that doesn't make it wrong.
>>18645596>>18644618All the pain and suffering in your system cuts out everyone's free will and a lot of pleasure. How would people work normally in your system? Can you give details how it can even function?
>>18645603>Let me ask you, do you leave the house at all? Why? You might experience pain and suffering leaving the house?Yes i do, to exercise, work, to hang out... I pick my things to avoid as much pain and suffering as possible. If i would be smart enough i would be able to avoid all the traps and never have to suffer, but this is forbidden here unfortunately, so i'm forced to suffer. >where a stubbed toe feels 100% exactly the same as getting skinned alive.I didn't say that, but all pain makes me feel bad. I would feel better without it. >>18645607>Just because something makes you sad that doesn't make it wrong.Of course it does, sad feels bad, i don't want to feel bad. Why do you want people to feel bad? I don't want anybody to feel bad. Why would i want that?>>18645610>cuts out everyone's free willHow so? I thought it's ok if someone limits the choices that are available to you by curating them beforehand, is that not the case now? For example a whole subset of choices (those choices that would lead to only good choices) is unavailable to us here now, we only get to pick among the choices that lead to more good/bad choices. Optimalism would just further limit the choices we already have by removing all the bad ones as well, so that only the good choices would remain.>a lot of pleasureHow so? The good things all stay, only the bad ones are removed.
>>18645610>How would people work normally in your system?Work? Well if all the work that results in pain and suffering were to be removed, then only that work that doesn't result in pain and suffering would remain. The good work.All would be good. No bad, no evil. Only good. I thought picrel >>18644618 made that quite clear. You destroy/delete/eliminate/get rid of the bad stuff, and what you're left with is all the good stuff. I would call it "Free will +", you're free to choose among all the good things. You can live in true peace, because you can be sure that whatever you choose, you will never make the wrong choice.
>>18645654Can you name me a 100% "good" job?
>>18645596>Why do you keep asking this?Because you did not understand what multiple people wanted from you and we agreed to go step by step in you figuring it out. Remember?
>>18645654>You can live in true peace, because you can be sure that whatever you choose, you will never make the wrong choice.Not like now where i have to be constantly paranoid whether the choice i have just made will be good for me or it will come bite me in the ass after it's done a few laps around the system. And since we're not made properly and we don't work properly we are bound to make a wrong choice eventually, and then we're fucked. Try as i may, i will fail eventually, and then pain and suffering come and i am completely powerless against them without a way to defend myself.
>>18645668Again just complaing that life isn't perfect. You want life to get better yoyr work hard for it faggot. Get a job. Put some effort in. Stop complaining like a bitch on the internet "woe is me woe is me I didn't sleep well and now I am suffering today". Nigger
>>18645663I would say yes, there is other criteria than feelings. You know the system by now, i explained it, it's rather simple i think.
>>18645679>it's rather simple i thinkThe term is trivial.>there is other criteria than feelingsPlease name which ones. Keep in mind that feelings about reputation etc. are still feelings.
>>18645678>You want life to get better yoyr work hard for it faggot>working hard makes me feel bad>somehow feeling bad will make me feel good>not to mention feeling bad defeats the purpose anywayWe're trying to improve life. You do not improve life by making yourself feel worse. You want to minimize and eventually eliminate feeling bad and maximize, eventually fill your life feeling good. We would like to move from the graph on the left to the graph on the right, so that at the end we never dip into the bad again, always staying in the good. Epic paint skills.
>>18645681>The general idea is that things and beings would work properly, as they should, without any mistakes. Optimally. Everything stems from that, and the result should be no suffering and pain. All is good.
>>18645689I'm aware. Sadly this doesn't help you understand what people were asking you.So back to the step-by-step explanation:>> Do you know that there are other things in reality besides feelings?>Yes>>Does optimalism apply criteria to judge whether an action should be done?>Umm, yes.>>Are feelings among the criteria?>Yes they are.>>Are there any other criteria besides feelings? >I would say yes>>Please name which [criteria besides feelings does optimalism apply to judge whether an action should be done]
This 'suffering to be able to then get something' trick is getting boring. The amount of suffering needed to achieve something is always, without exception, bigger than initially planned or anticipated, and once you achieve the goal it rarely feels as good as you thought it would. So whenever someone says 'Oh you could do that, if only you would work for it.' i imagine the amount of work it would realistically take, and then multiply it by 2 and add an injury or two, or some other unexpected loss to the tally, and then i compare it to the goal and how good that would make me feel, and it never outweighs the bad that i would feel. You're always at a loss, sinking deeper into the bad. Do this a few times in succession and you're bound to crash.
>>18645698So this is not valid? Things working properly does not apply?
>>18645723No idea, we're nowhere near that step. The current step is Please name which [criteria besides feelings does optimalism apply to judge whether an action should be done]
>>18645687Yet you fail to explain specifically HOW to move graph left to graph right. Don't just say "eliminate bad". Explain HOW to eliminate bad.
>>18645714Plus there is no guarantee that you will even achieve the goal. There is guarantee that you will suffer though. So yeah, it's a trick. If you don't want to get hurt, well, don't do things too hard, or too much, or at all. It doesn't exactly encourage trying.
>>18645726Ideally you plan, and as soon as you see that the plan would result in pain and suffering, abandon the step, go one step back, and make a plan around it, so that you ensure that you avoid it. You keep going. After you cover all the possible angles you then enact the plan, and everything should go smoothly.Realistically, we obviously can't. It's forbidden. It's so forbidden that you will be met with stiff resistance and ridicule from the people themselves first for merely mentioning that such a system could even exist.But if you could start from scratch you would just make good, and that's it.
>>18645749>Ideally you plan, and as soon as you see that the plan would result in pain and suffering, abandon the step, go one step backAwesome! Let's see - you work out. Suffering now. Ew. You don't work out. Suffering in old age. Ew.Now what?
>>18645756You work out in a way that you don't suffer.
>>18645764That's sadly still suffering in old age. The stimuli that lead to adaptation are either resisted by the body in the moment or exhaust it during recovery, neither feelings being "good" phenomenologically. How do I apply optimalism?
>>18645764Or is this also forbidden here? They always want you to suffer... Isn't it sad?
>>18645774Who is they?
>>18645774No because not all suffering or pain is made equal. You have not addressed that point either.
>>18644622>Good is subjectiveSpoken like a true midwit.
>>18645749Planning causes me suffering. Now what?
>>18645714>The amount of suffering needed to achieve something is always, without exception, bigger than initially planned or anticipated, and once you achieve the goal it rarely feels as good as you thought it would. i imagine the amount of work it would realistically take, and then multiply it by 2 and add an injury or two, or some other unexpected loss to the tally, and then i compare it to the goal and how good that would make me feel, and it never outweighs the bad that i would feel. You're always at a loss, sinking deeper into the bad. Do this a few times in succession and you're bound to crashSkull issue. Get better at the game
>>18645639>whole subset of choices (those choices that would lead to only good choices) is unavailable to us here now, we only get to pick among the choices that lead to more good/bad choices.Can you name these choices? Remember to be specific instead of being vague.
>>18646302Now we face the fact that OP isn't describing a system, but an alternative universe and his complaints that Anon's don't want to comply are an autistic confusion between fantasy and reality.
>>18644630Clown, this actually offends me. And this type of thinking is extremely toxic because you end up in a situation where sociopaths who are cunning are able to prey on good-willed people because said people are unable to respond.Pain simply means that you're challenging circumstances, the environment and established patterns. A drug addict who has to stop will suffer. Someone exercising will suffer. A nation that is indebted will suffer from austerity and fiscal discipline.In fact most people of wisdom are probably more likely to argue the opposite, that pain and suffering is good or valuable.
>>18645802People.>>18646413I think you're just a masochist. I don't know what to call someone who likes to suffer.
>>18645091You have yet to explain how this "system" would function or even be enforced?
>>18646423How do people "want" you to suffer?
>>18645773I guess you can't. We are forced to feel bad and there's nothing we can do about it.>>18646413>that pain and suffering is good or valuable.You say this, but it does not feel good. >>18646427I did explain, here. >>18645749 . You obviously can't implement such a system, people are too evil and will resist and make you and others suffer out of spite. YOu would have to have godlike powers and start from scratch.
>>18646427By "we" he means God, as admitted in >>18645575OP is not asking us to consider an actionable system, he's asking us to validate an idea he had for a fictional universe. He just did it in a very untransparent way.
>>18646423Also you never said what a "good" job is.>>18645657
>>18646432I did. If all the work that results in pain and suffering were to be removed, then only that work that doesn't result in pain and suffering would remain.
>>18646434And those specific jobs are.....?
>>18646428By suggesting i should do things that include suffering. Instead they should be suggesting things that do not make me suffer.
>>18646456You want to suffer, you've proven it by not working out enough. What's with the high horse?
>>18646456Can you name me an activity you do that doesn't cause suffering? Still waiting for the job that doesn't cause suffering as well.
>>18646430>YOu would have to have godlike powers and start from scratchSorry we can't do that. Try again
>>18646430>but it does not feel good.Appeal to emotion fallacy. Again just because it makes you feel bad doesn't make it bad. Children would like to eat candy for all their meals yet this would cause them suffering. Parents would want them to have a balanced diet even though it takes away the short term pleasure of eating candy. Why keep appealing to short term pleasure?
>>18644618>utilitarianism with extra stepsWhy not just be a utilitarian?
>>18646505>Again just because it makes you feel bad doesn't make it bad.Truly good things wouldn't make you feel bad, they would make you feel good. If something makes you feel bad, then it can't be called good. It seems truly good things can't exist, are somehow forbidden here.
>>18646605Yet you cannot explain what specifically is "truly good". Give me an example of something on Earth that is truly good.
>>18646605>somehow forbiddenYou keep saying this but nothing is gatekeeping you. You just wish for something that isn't possible.Let's play a game. Are you happy with your life? Yes or no?
>>18646663Obviously no.
>>18646423>who likes to sufferNobody enjoys it in the moment they enjoy the pleasure they get of a job well done after. How is this hard to understand fag? They look back at their hard work with pride and that is the pleasure which outweighs the pain during. Why do you think women have multiple children? Is every woman who gave birth a masochist in your book? If you answer yes you are actually retarded.
>>18647369Then why don't you kill yourself? It would end your suffering completely?
>>18647371>Nobody enjoys it in the momentThey enjoy it enough to willingly do it. Or it just doesn't bother them.> They look back at their hard work with pride and that is the pleasure which outweighs the pain during.I feel nothing. I do remember the pain i had to go through.>Why do you think women have multiple children?IDK. IDK why anyone would want to have children, besides the fact you can't protect them from suffering, they will also make you suffer.I finished my high school, it took me 10 years. I felt nothing when i finally did it. Nothing. All that effort, for nothing. It seems people can hype themselves up so much that they will release who knows which chemicals that will make them feel so good that they will forget how bad they had to feel to achieve it. I have no other explanation for this.
>>18647372I probably will. I barely have any teeth left, and the dentist refuses to use anesthetics that would actually work, so i stopped going there. I'll probably get sepsis one day and just die.
What would you do if you knew you would never be truly happy? That there is nothing you can do to avoid feeling bad? That you will never win, that you have already lost? And everyone else just smiles and pretends that this is normal and that everything is fine, and they just go on like nothing has happened. Nothing bothers them, nothing sticks. They can just flip a magic switch and then everything is fine, and they don't feel bad anymore. Life must be easy if you can just lie to yourself and actually believe it.
>>18647554>And everyone else just smiles and pretends that this is normal and that everything is fine, and they just go on like nothing has happenedYou make the implication that because your life is shit everyone else must be going through it just as bad which is wrong. Sorry your life sucks but other people's lives are great and aren't bothered by little troubles you blow out of proportion.
>>18647417What specifically is making you not shoot yourself or jump off a tall building/cliff this very moment? Hell if you truly do not enjoy life you are free. Go take out a large loan and have the best day ever and then you can end it on a high note.
>>18647393>IDK. IDK why anyone would want to have childrenBecause for a vast majority of people life is enjoyable and a blessing. A gift they want to share. Sure it isn't perfect but that is life. You take what you are given and make the best of it. How is this such a hard concept for you? With the mindset you have now you could have the perfect life and stub your toe and you would cry and complain that life isn't worth living because yoy experienced pain no matter how short it was.
>>18644830Optimalism doesn't solve the problem of suffering because there can be situations where some party suffering is unavoidable. Consider that person A has a deep crush on person B but person B finds person A revolting. There is no resolution here even if both persons behave according to your philosophy. The conclusion of this philosophy would be to genetically engineer people to not experience pain and suffering. Then every action becomes permissable because it cannot result in pain or suffering. Personally I don't give a shit about suffering.
>>18645687Our brains will just recalibrate such that the troughs now feel like suffering. Our perceived pain always shifts with the environment, it is not universally constant
>>18647393So you admit you are an antinatalist. You believe all life is bad because suffering happens.
>>18647839Then we should be able to shift it the other way as well.
>>18647987I believe nothing in life is good and people should stop using that word. If you tell me that something is good and i then go do it and it made me suffer and feel bad, i am going to have trouble trusting you.
>>18647987Well, not being anti-natalist means you support and advocate for suffering of others. So i really have no choice.
>>18648396You can either admit you want others to suffer, or you're an anti-natalist.
>>18644618>pain is badproof?
>>18648411Masochist
>>18648411I thought these things are self-evident. You can't honestly say that pain is good. Pain hurts, it makes you feel bad, that's what it does, and there's no defense against it. You people must be wired differently i guess. Or you can lie to yourself and actually believe it.
>>18648443>You can't honestly say that pain is good. You can say it has no moral value in itself. That it's just a signal, like seeing blue.You could make much more of a case for suffering being bad, but optimalism sadly does not allow for nuance.
>>18648397It's not that I want others to suffer, it's that I'm not concerned with their suffering.
>>18648438Different guy but just accept that your naive hedonism is misguided. It's okay, everyone runs this thought experiment at some point in their lives.Like I wrote in some post earlier. Suffering is your relationship to a given environment. Suffering is relative. Some people suffer under certain circumstances. Those who do not don't likely because they have experienced and developed themselves already in said circumstance. The easiest analogy is the gym, you don't gain strength without conquering the environment you artificially create for yourself (i.e. weights). The same applies shockingly similar for mind and character. That's the entire basis for asceticism. Ascetics literally means exercises. If you ask me, the goal isn't to remove suffering for the sake of removing it, but examine your relationship with it. Not all suffering is worthwhile and divine in nature.
>>18648482You don't care, you have no empathy.>>18648459>That it's just a signal, like seeing blue.Seeing blue doesn't hurt or make you feel bad. Feeling pain does. >If you ask me, the goal isn't to remove suffering for the sake of removing it, but examine your relationship with it.What relationship? I don't like to suffer. Never have, never will. You want to convince me that i should like to suffer? Impossible, i can never like something that makes me feel bad.
>>18648665>You don't care, you have no empathy.ok
>>18648665So why haven't you killed yourself again if life is just so horrible for you? Still haven't addressed >>18647647 or >>18647631BTW. Also you still fail to name specifically activities you do that doesn't cause suffering or name specific jobs that don't cause suffering.
>>18648382>>18648396>>18648397You imply that life is only suffering which is wrong. Sorry your life sucks but because your life is shit that doesn't mean everyone else has it just as bad as you.What is even telling is that you still fail to name what you do for work or for recreation. Why keep arguing in bad faith?
>>18648863>You imply that life is only suffering which is wrong.I didn't say that. I said nothing in life is good and we should be realistic about it and stop using the word good. >What is even telling is that you still fail to name what you do for work or for recreation.Work by its very nature makes me feel bad, i know that good work, such that it wouldn't cause me to feel bad, doesn't exist. As for recreation, i throw frisbees. Far. There is technique to it, do it right and it doesn't hurt, don't do it right and it will hurt.
>>18647647>The conclusion of this philosophy would be to genetically engineer people to not experience pain and suffering.You could fix the environment so that it stops being dangerous. And/or fix the people so that they stop doing dangerous things. Or both. But no, people do the opposite, they claim it can't be fixed and just keep plowing on, doing damage.
>>18648854>So why haven't you killed yourself again if life is just so horrible for you?You would rather see people die than fix things? Why this refusal to improve life?
>>18648665>>That it's just a signal, like seeing blue.>Seeing blue doesn't hurt or make you feel bad. Feeling pain does.Factually incorrect. Suffering makes you feel bad. Pain is a signal that sometimes causes it and sometimes doesn't.
>>18648916It is far more feasible to eliminate people's capacity to suffer than to eliminate danger in the environment. In fact we already have the ability to do so. We have a reasonable hypothesis of what mutations caused Jo Cameron's condition(a woman who feels almost no pain or suffering) and we have CRISPR. All we lack to eliminate suffering is the eugenic will to do so. Once that is accomplished, people can kill, rape, and mutilate each other freely without causing suffering.
>>18648924Huh? Can you decide whether or not you will feel pain? You can't honestly say you can. Can you just decide how pain is going to make you feel? I doubt that also... If you can, well, you've hit the jackpot, life is easy if you can just decide how pain will make you feel.
>>18648948>Can you decide whether or not you will feel pain?No. Like I said, it's a physiological signal.>Can you just decide how pain is going to make you feel?Yes. Everyone can. Again, optimalists wouldn't get it because the entire system prevents this nuance from ever being discussed. All they can do is passively aggressively wait for God to re-make the universe.
>>18648955>Yes. Everyone can.I think you're lying. Nobody aside from masochists can honestly say that pain feels good, nor can they say that they can choose how pain is going to make them feel. If you have that ability that basically equates to having a magic switch that you flip to turn something that feels bad into something that feels good. You're lying to yourself, and then you actually believe it. How that can work i have no idea. Must be magic.
>>18648955Let's just abolish all painkillers and anesthetics then and just tell people to decide that pain will make them feel good. I wonder how that would turn out.
>>18648970>Nobody aside from masochists can honestly say that pain feels good> nor can they say that they can choose how pain is going to make them feelFactually incorrect.>Must be magic.You're free to consider basic physiology magic. You're the only one who will be worse off.>>18648986>Let's just abolish all painkillers and anestheticsNo they are necessary for pain that people cannot handle. I know you're new to biology (I mean magic) so we can take it step by step.
>>18648997>that people cannot handle.What do you mean? They can just decide how it's going to make them feel. If they can decide that pain makes them feel good, then more pain would make them feel even better.
>>18649003>>cannot handle>what do you mean?I mean cases they cannot handle. I'm fine if you play dense. Nobody is more entertained than I am by you not managing to understand that people have limits lmao. How ironic.
>>18648997I should really do a poll, because i simply don't believe you. I don't believe there are many people that can say that pain feels good. And i don't believe there are many people that can say that they can decide how pain is going to make them feel. You say everybody can.
>>18649008Maybe read a thing or two instead. Oh wait, it's an optimalist thread.... yeah go on and make people address your interests for no reason.
>>18649007You said people can decide how pain is going to make them feel. Now you're telling me that they can't.
>>18649011No I'm not. I said people can decide. That their decision power is infinite was never said and only a sub 80 IQ person could interpret it that way. Do you know someone who thought that? No way.
>>18649013>That their decision powerI mean it's easy if you can just invent other variables... Why wouldn't their decision power be infinite? What is hampering their decision power? I wouldn't say that they can decide then, if their decision isn't theirs alone.
>>18649013What good is it if you can decide on something, but the result doesn't match your decision. You can't rely on it at all. It either works, or it doesn't.
>>18649036>Why wouldn't their decision power be infinite?Is yours?>I wouldn't say that they can decide then, if their decision isn't theirs alone.So ... you can't make life decisions?>>18649039>what good is anything less than 100%?Between 0 and 99% good.You guys need to find a job. Forget the lips of a woman, you have yet to be kissed by life itself.
>>18649055>Between 0 and 99% good.Unreliable then.>>18649055>Is yours?Can you explain? Do you have an answer or not? >>18649055>So ... you can't make life decisions?Look, you said people can decide how pain is going to make them feel. Now you're trying to tell me why they can't. It's starting to not make sense, and i'm getting tired. Maybe you can explain, in a simple way, unambiguous way, and maybe i'll come back and try and understand it tomorrow. Because i feel today it's not going to happen.
>>18649075>>Between 0 and 99% good.>Unreliable then.No.>Can you explain?I can but I shouldn't have to explain the absolute basics of what human beings are. If you don't why human faculties and powers are finite, I think I'll just leave you to it.
>>18648443>Pain hurts, it makes you feel bad,Guess what, RETARD, if it didn't hurt you would not move your fat fucking underage ass to solve the problem causing the pain.
>>18649230Well, it's easier to just not do things that you know will cause you pain, don't you think?
>>18644618>If an action you are about to do will result in somebody, you or anyone else, in pain or suffering, then it is not the right action to do"The entire economy of my soul and the balance effected by 'misfortune', the breaking open of new springs and needs, the healing of old wounds, the shedding of entire periods of the past - all such things that can be involved in misfortune do not concern the dear compassionate one: they want to help and have no thought that there is a personal necessity of misfortune; that terrors, deprivations, impoverishments, midnights, adventures, risks, and blunders are as necessary for me and you as their opposites; indeed, to express myself mystically, that**the path to one's own heaven always leads through the voluptuousness of one's own hell. No, they know nothing of that: the 'religion of compassion' (or 'the heart') commands them to help**, and they believe they have helped best when they have helped most quickly!**Should you adherents to this religion really have the same attitude towards yourselves that you have towards your fellow men; should you refuse to let your suffering lie on you even for an hour and instead constantly prevent all possible misfortune ahead of time; should you experience suffering and displeasure as evil, hateful, deserving of annihilation, as a defect of existence, then you have besides your religion of pity also another religion in your hearts; and the latter is perhaps the mother of the former -*the religion of snug cosiness*. Oh, how little do you know of the happiness of man, you comfortable and good-natured ones! For happiness and misfortune (*Glück und Unglück*) are two siblings and twins who either grow up together or - as with you -*remain small*together!"
>>18649312These are all just tricks with the goal of getting people hurt.
>>18649300>every painful thing comes from stuff you causedpoor bait
>>18648921>fix thingsThat is all well and good but you still haven't explained specifically the steps on HOW to fix things.
>>18648887If it hurts sometimes why do you keep doing it? You said it yourself that unless you do it perfectly there is no point in doing something since it causes suffering. You said if you do it a wrong way it hurts so obviously you did it wrong once. So why keep doing it?
>>18648916>they claim it can't be fixedSo do you know how to change the environment and human nature entirely?
>>18644618Doing wickedness and degeneracy hurts God and pains him and his holy ones. There's no such thing as behind closed doors, nothing is hidden from God. Heaven is forced to witness all the evil you do even in your thoughts and desires and imagination and God will eventually get tired of it and will eradicate you from existence so the holy and innocent ones can finally live in peace.
>>18648970>I think you're lyingHow is this a hard concept for you to understand? Still haven't addressed >>18647631
>>18647554>They can just flip a magic switch and then everything is fine, and they don't feel bad anymore.Yeah it is because (unlike you) little pains do not bother them. They see the joy and blessing in life and decide they outweigh all the bad. You simply cry at the bad ignoring the blessing and good in the world
>>18650524The only reason he hasn't done it yet is because he is mercifully waiting for some of the wicked to repent. Remember God promised Abraham that if he found even 10 rigtheous people in Sodom he would spare the whole city. So one wicked man who repents and turns to God is worth waiting for to him. One rigtheous man is worth a million wicked ones combined and God will reward them in The Great Day accordingly.
>>18648921How exactly can we fix things when you say yourself it is impossible to fix
>>18648665>Seeing blue doesn't hurt or make you feel badIt does if you don't like blue. What then?
>>18650525>How is this a hard concept for you to understand?One moment you say they can decide how they are going to feel, only for the next moment to say they can't decide how they are going to feel. They either can or they can't. >>18650525>Still haven't addressed >>18647631What is there to address? People apparently have the ability to enjoy life. They can enjoy feeling bad. How i have no idea.
One of you admitted that you don't care about other people suffering. I don't expect psychopaths to understand.
>>18650982What makes them enjoying life bad if the good outweighs the bad?
>>18650982>One moment you say they can decide how they are going to feel, only for the next moment to say they can't decide how they are going to feelWrong because pain and suffering is a spectrum. You can tolerate pain until you cannot. Do you immediately quit a trivial task if you meet resistance? Say you are going to your car and you drop your keys, are you immediately giving up?
>>18650984Should I as an individual care about Everton single person on the planet? Why? Why should I as an American living in the central valley give two shits about some starving kid in Bangladesh or whatever poor shithole flavor you want to chose? I care about the people in my life and the ones that directly involve in my day to day activities.
>>18647631>With the mindset you have now you could have the perfect life and stub your toe and you would cry and complain that life isn't worth living because yoy experienced pain no matter how short it was.No, i would complain about feeling bad because i stubbed my toe. I would be stating the truth. I would say that my life would have been better had i not stubbed my toe. Again, i would be stating the truth. I can not lie to myself and say that stubbing my toe felt good, or that stubbing my toe made me feel good, and then actually believe that. Perhaps you can lie to yourself and believe it, i can't.
>>18647631>A gift they want to share.>A gift that makes you feel bad.Make a better gift, so that it doesn't make others feel bad.
>>18651000No need to lie to oneself, stubbing a toe is such a trivial matter that even though it caused a tiny but if harm it is absolutely irrelevant and not worth crying and complaining over. You keep looking at all the tiny and irrelevant things that happen and scream they are on par with or even worse than getting skinned alive which is stupid
>>18651003You chose to feel bad for not manning the fuck up and dealing with it. Rather yoy sit cry and complain about it
>>18651003And again it begs the question if you hate life because it is imperfect why don't you leave? Suicide is easy yet you choose to stay alive even though you claim it is awful.
>>18650984Anything can cause people to suffer. Say a person really hates seeing black people, is it now black people's responsibility to stay out of sight? I follow the NAP. So long as I am not committing acts of aggression, then if my actions cause someone to suffer that is their problem.
>>18651003>make a better giftSkill issue. Use your gift better. You have only yourself to blame for having a bad life. Try working hard to improve it.
>>18651005No, i would just state the truth. >>18651000>i would complain about feeling bad because i stubbed my toe. I would be stating the truth. I would say that my life would have been better had i not stubbed my toe. Again, i would be stating the truth.For some reason stating the truth is a problem. Would you rather i ignore the truth, pretend it doesn't exist, lie to myself and believe it?
>>18651027>Try working hard to improve it.Will working hard make me feel good or will it make me feel bad? You say improve...
>>18651039Why state an obvious fact? Stubbing your toe hurts yes, but why make a spectacle of it and bring attention to yourself. It is no different than people who complain about the weather. Yes it is hot, why state it? You are just needlessly being annoying doing that. No matter what you do you cannot stop pain from happening. It is just part of life.>just change itHow? You have provided 0 ways to make this change>>18645687>God should have...Irrelevant. We are in the here and now and unless yoy can provide step by step solutions on how to specifically reach your goal it is as relevant to our world as a story in a fiction book.
>>18651044So your solution is to never work and never improve? In order to improve at something you need to put in effort. Why do you hate putting in effort? Why remain lazy? Because laziness feels good? It won't feel good later in life. But you are so fixated on short term pleasure you fail to see long term.
>>18651039You said throughout this entire thread to just "do things that won't cause suffering" yet complaining causes suffering and you have been doing it this entire thread? Why?
>>18651049Well you should have said the truth then.>Why don't you make your life worse by working hard so that then MAYBE it can improveYou see, then at least i have a clear picture of what will actually happen. The proposition looks much less enticing though. >>18651046>Why state an obvious fact?Why ignore an obvious truth? Why stay quiet?
>>18644618In defiance of common sense, nature, and all observable evidence. Everything has a cost, everything is at the detriment of something else.You can and perhaps should aim to minimise, but you can't eliminate pain or suffering.
>>18651044Is improving bad now?
>>18651062>ignore an obvious truthWho said it is being ignored? Why acknowledge something irrelevant?>make your life worseCan you prove it 100% makes your life worse?>then MAYBE it can improveSo you would rather stay miserable for your entire life than put in effort to try and improve it? If you try you might improve to something better. Do nothing and you are choosing to remain just miserable.
>>18651049>In order to improve at something you need to put in effort. Why do you hate putting in effort?>Why do you hate feeling bad?Really?
>>18651074>Why acknowledge something irrelevant?So that it can be improved upon and avoided.
>>18651084And you still have yet to provide ways to specifically improve it. No outline of steps. Nothing. Curious.>>18651081If you out in effort to improve you will feel less bad. This is a truth you refuse to accept.
>>18651081So you would rather feel ok now and horrible in the future vs feeling somewhat bothered now and great in the future? Interesting short term goal. Again refusing to look at the big picture.Do you like the idea of children eating candy for dinner every night? Why or why not?
>>18651110>So you would rather feel ok now and horrible in the future vs feeling somewhat bothered now and great in the future?No, i would like to feel good now and good in the future. For some reason that is forbidden here.>Do you like the idea of children eating candy for dinner every night? Why or why not?If the candy doesn't have any negative effects on them, then why not? Make such candy that it doesn't have a negative effect on people and we should be good. Good candy.
>>>>18648382Here is a wheel. There is a circus guy next to it. He says you're a lucky guy and can win 1 million dollars, enough for you to live comfortably for a few years.You just have to land on the blue space. But if you land on the red space you have to give me 10$.Two strangers have both spun the wheel and gotten 1 million dollars so you know its real.If you spin that wheel and you land on the red space does that make the wheel bad and no one should ever spin the wheel?
>>18651784>He says you're a lucky guyHe's lying obviously.The wheel can't be called good. Something that is good doesn't make you feel bad. If it makes you feel bad, it isn't good.You want to call bad things good. That's how you trick people.>oh, do this, it's good for you>i do the thing, and it makes me feel badSomeone wasn't telling the truth.
>>18651137>For some reason that is forbidden hereBecause you refuse to put in effort and are lazy>If the candy doesn't have any negative effects on them,It is normal candy. Lots of sugar and it will rot their teeth and give them a stomach ache.>Make such candy that it doesn't have a negative effect on people and we should be goodSorry that isn't possible. You have to decide will they eat a normal dinner made by their parents and "suffer" or have long term health consequences in the future but feel good cause they ate candy. Strangely enough your mindset would still eat the candy since it is "good".
>>18652019Still cannot grasp tolerance and amounts can we? Why still say a stubbed toe is 100% exactly the same as being skinned alive?
>>18652032>You have to decide will they eat a normal dinner made by their parents and "suffer" or have long term health consequences in the future but feel good cause they ate candy.Make better children then. I wouldn't have children in the first place if i wouldn't be able to protect them from suffering. I don't want people to suffer. Me having children would make them suffer. I don't have the heart to make them suffer.>>18652035>Why still say a stubbed toe is 100% exactly the same as being skinned alive?But i didn't, you did. Read what i said again. Should i copy it for you?>>18651000>i would complain about feeling bad because i stubbed my toe. I would be stating the truth. I would say that my life would have been better had i not stubbed my toe. Again, i would be stating the truth.
>>18652035>toleranceExplain tolerance please. Am i supposed to pretend pain doesn't feel bad? Am i supposed to pretend pain doesn't make me feel bad? Am i supposed to lie to myself and actually believe it?
>>18652048>Explain tolerance pleaseDo you not know the definition of tolerance you dullard?
>>18644618Suffering is overrated. Optimize around greatness
>>18652043So you would rather stub your toe vs get skinned alive? And no you cannot say I would rather not have either. Pick one.
>>18652043You are going to die so why worry about shit that MIGHT happen? You are petrified of living.
>>18652084IDK what it's supposed to be in this case, how does it work with pain.>>18652101Why do you want me to feel bad?>>18652118Because when it does happen it's too late. We are trying to prevent it. I can't just become stupid all of a sudden and start living my life recklessly like i don't care if i get hurt.
>>18652118Because i fucked myself up like this once already and i regret it to this day. I injured myself and i am experiencing the consequences of it every day. So i would rather not do something like that again.I do not want to make my life even worse than it already is, i want to make my life better. How hard is this to understand? Do you people just not care how you feel? Life must be easy if you just don't care how you feel.
>>18652084>Tolerance is the capacity to endure, accept, or respect ideas, behaviors, physical substances, or environmental conditions that differ from one's own or from a specific standardSo it is just lying to yourself...>this pain is making me feel bad, but i will pretend it doesn'tI would still feel bad. I would by lying if i said i don't.If i'm wrong please explain how tolerance is supposed to work with pain.
>>18652174>bybeLife must be easy if you can just lie to yourself and actually believe it.
>>18644618Retarded faggot thinks utopia is possible. Next you will say everyone should be treated as if they were the exact same person and invalidate all of their personal experiences, emotions and skills.Whos going to tell him?>>18645904>good is objective.Another retard, why dont you prove that faggot? Prove that morality is objective and not a concept we made up you brain dead moron.>>18644661>Optimalism would lead to a world without hurt.Let's say I'm a deranged monster, and if I am not constantly hurting someone, I will be in immense suffering. A. I hurt people to avoid being hurt.B. I don't hurt people and get hurt as a result.Boom your philosophy is retarded because bad people exist go figure.>>18644741My only regret is that I was ever born so its hard for me to be against anti-natalism. I don't appreciate the continued existence of humanity. It should all end soon.
>>18644618The problem is that in a long enough term, any action can cause suffering. For example, buying any product can contribute to a company somewhere in the supply chain causing environmental damate or exploiting workers, and paying taxes contributes to the state paying for the military industry, causing deaths. And in a long enough timeline, any act will cause some suffering indirectly.Also, pain is very relative to people's expectations and the available pleasure they can compare it to. Arguably the amount of pain people feel can be best reduced by lowering their expectations to a minimum.
>>18652199>The problem is that in a long enough term, any action can cause suffering. For example, buying any product can contribute to a company somewhere in the supply chain causing environmental damate or exploiting workers, and paying taxes contributes to the state paying for the military industry, causing deaths. And in a long enough timeline, any act will cause some suffering indirectly.Then we should stop pretending anything is good and say the truth. Words have meanings, You can't just replace bad with good.
>>18652199>Arguably the amount of pain people feel can be best reduced by lowering their expectations to a minimum.>reducedHow about bring to zero?
OK. If Optimalism doesn't work, how would you improve it then, so that it would work? Let's call that Superoptimalism. How would Superoptimalism look like?
>>18652449I already gave you a blueprint.>>18647647>>18648933
>>18652174>acceptance is lyingWow yoy really are retarded. Look up the definition of "acceptance" now.
>>18652310>bring to zeroSo you want to kill everyone then? What a strange philosophy you have where you want the extinction of everything. Sorry your life is bad but other people's lives are great. You should put in work to feel better.
>>18652216>you just can't replace bad with goodYou easily can.
>>18652158>doing any action is now recklessSo you just sit inside your house all day?
>>18652954What does acceptance have to do with it? >this pain is making me feel bad, but i will pretend (lie to myself) it's not making me feel badPlease explain.
>>18652956Why would i want to kill everyone according to you? Because they would feel no pain? I fail to see a connection. >oh, i don't feel any pain, this will kill meHuh?
>>18652956>You should put in work to feel better.>You should feel bad to feel betterDoesn't make much sense, does it?
>>18653073One of the main problems with that mindset is that pain is relative.Once you get used to a certain level of comfort your definition of pain changes.If I live every day of my life in complete bliss with nothing ever going wrong then one day I cook my toast a little bit too long and it tastes worse. I'll be suffering because its such a foreign thing. The opposite is true too.If I live my entire life with broken bones, one working eye and unable to taste anything. I'll be ecstatic when something nice finally happens even if its something as small as someone giving me 5$ out of pity.You can't eliminate suffering because everyone's definition of suffering changes all the time.
>>18653217>One of the main problems with that mindset is that pain is relative.>Once you get used to a certain level of comfort your definition of pain changes.Feelings don't care about definitions. You feel pain. No amount of you talking about it and defining it will change the intensity or duration of pain. You people really do have a magic switch inside you, and you can't seem to understand that some of us don't have it.
>>18653217You talk like you have some sort of control over pain. It seems that there is something between you (the one who perceives pain) and your body that can somehow filter pain. I admit i am lacking that part.
>>18653082>work is bad because I am lazyStop being lazy then
>>18653256I think you need to realise that 99.999% of people have this "magic switch". you probably have it too just in a severely spoilt/broken form. Everyone experiences pain differently and we cant change everything because 0.001% of people cant see a difference from someone cutting in line and having a limb torn off.The severity of the pain matters. theres levels of pain. you can try and reduce the amount of pain you inflict/endure sure, but you can never ever get rid of it fully.
>>18653595>The severity of the pain matters. theres levels of painWell yes, but that's just saying things are bad and really bad. They're still bad. I have a feeling like you people are only making excuses and defending pain.
>>18653871>you people are only making excuses and defending painWhy would they do that?NTA
>>18653876IDK, why would they indeed?
>>18653876Maybe it's because they can just decide that it doesn't make them feel bad, doesn't bother them, so they're ok with it. Life must be easy if you can just decide how you're going to feel.
>>18653880They probably wouldn't.>>18653882So it's because everyone has a power you don't? That's your most likely interpretation?
>>18653883>So it's because everyone has a power you don't? That's your most likely interpretation?Well if it's raining and everybody but you has an umbrella, then i can imagine they wouldn't mind the rain.
Rain isn't that big of a problem, anon. Just open your umbrella! See, life isn't that bad.
>>18653886Or perhaps you're just standing under a leak. Move.
>>18653882>>18653886Every time you post it makes me feel bad. If you really believe what you are saying, you should stop posting. If you don't stop posting then I will take that as an admission that you don't actually believe any of this.
>>18653070Pain is a part of life. You not accepting that is evident with how you want to create a new system (that can't even be properly made without divine intervention) and crying that you stubbed your toe and are now suffering.
>>18653260There is. A stubbed toe hurts less than being skinned alive so when I stub my toe I can go on with my day and not worry.
>stubbed toeClassic foot in the door. Stubbed toe today, drilling into bone tomorrow, what's the difference, right? Just accept it.
>>18654870So you are saying all pain is equal? Yes or no?
>>18644618This is retarded. Sometimes people need a good beating.
>>18654969Equal in that it makes me feel bad. Duration and intensoty change of course, but once things go bad, it is bad.
>>18655431They wouldn't need it if they would have been made properly.
>>18655500Do you feel joy and other emotions the same way?does eating some penny candies fill you with the same joy as making one of your dreams com true?It must be very strange living in a world where thats the case.
>>18644618Why are you trying to reinvent utilitarianism?
>>18644618Moral philosophy is intellectually bankrupt and annoying. The real world has a diversity of strategies, each with its own merit. It is good to be a thief in a mostly cooperative society. It is good to be cooperative in most instances, and every other variation of this has its merits. Learn to love life as it is
>>18644781Spectacular!
>>18655624That's retarded. Some kids are born assholes, and they stay assholes for the rest of their lives.
>>18656742Yeah, because they aren't created properly. A properly created being wouldn't make mistakes that would result in any kind of suffering.If you can't do things properly, then it's probably best not to do them at all.
>>18656303And yet people have problems understanding that.
>>18657623That's retarded. You've never met a real asshole kid and it shows. It doesn't really matter how their parents raise them, they are always finding a way to do fucked up shit. This it's all muh environment cope is delusional.
>>18654870Because people can easily deal with a stub toe and not worry about it. Yes it still hurts but they don't cry about how all pain is equal and therefore all pain is bad. You keep equating that all pain is equally bad which is wrong in itself. By that logic all feeling that uplift are 100% good.
>>18655500What specifically is "bad" about suffering especiallywhen it is small stuff like soreness after working out? Have you ever heard the saying don't sweat the small stuff? Do you just not know what that means?
>>18653073If you don't want to feel any pain ever, death is the only solution for this. So you keep claiming life is so horrible because pain happens sometimes. So why not kill yourself?
