After losing my faith in Christianity, I've become more interested in Buddhism. Dharma speaks to me. What books should I read to understand the religion more, and which denomination is a good one for a Westerner?
All Westerners should be suggested the path of Amitabha is really legit, alternative for christ and requires beautiful faith which Western people have. Start simple with Dalai Lama as your new pope, and don't worry too much about denomination however pure land is best
>>18646477Thanks. Personally, I'm not really looking for a replacement of Jesus, and I don't personally like Dalai that much, but I will look into Pure Land.
>>18646467Zen will probably be the most accessible for a Westerner, if joining a community is a priority for you. Otherwise, it depends on what specifically speaks to you? The Pali Canon? Then Theravada. The Lotus Sutra? Then Nichiren (not Sokka Gakkai. It's just prosperity gospel applied to Buddhism). Devotion and faith? Pure Land. If you're split and like a little bit if everything, then Tendai.And the best book would be The Heart of the Buddha’s Teaching by Thich Nhat Hanh along with the Dhammapada and Heart Sutra.
Westerners can NEVER become Buddhists, you are a cancer on our religion and no one will ever believe that you have any genuine devotion. Go get a lotus tattoo and stick to reddit atheism>t. Thai Dharmic BVLL
>>18646467Theravada for authenticity, Zen for Chad aesthetics >>18646477Don’t actually do this
>>18646519>theravadaOP, you can be assured that this “theravada” practitioner does not perform monk veneration, relic veneration, pilgrimage, indra/ganesha/avalokiteshvara veneration, monk donations, metteya meditation to be reborn in his world (a pure land practice, btw) or any merit accumulation practice to be reborn in the peaceful realms that makes up the bulk of traditional layperson theravada. You’ll often find that western internet theravadins fell for the burmese and sri lankan nationalistic campaigns to legitimize their own buddhist schools and scriptures as the oldest, “most authentic” versions, and in the over-emphasis of meditation by these schools in order to appeal to the west.Zen is a meme in the west and fucking dead in its home country of Japan. Chan (the chinese form of zen) has more serious teachers and adherents. And you’ll find that they mix their practice with pure land practices there as well.
>>18646467Shingon is the most sublime tradition IMO
>>18646467Out of curiosity what made you cease to believe in Christ, and what has you considering Buddhism?
>>18646503Cheers, anon. It seems my local library has Dhammapada, so I'll start with that.>>18646652Thanks for the list. >ShingonIt amazes me how many brands of Buddhism there truly are. >>18646636And thank you for mentioning Chan, first time I hear about it!
>>18646781I'd say there wasn't just one thing. I'd say losing my faith in Trinity was the first step as I was simply unable to truly make logical sense of it. Then the problem of evil and the problem of Hell and Heaven, as well as the general inability to defend Hell as a concept alongside the idea of an all-loving God. Finally, the fact that Jesus fulfilled none of the prophecies and the resurrection can't really be proven were the final straws. I looked into miracles, but ultimately found nothing that convinced me. I suppose the reason I find Dharma interesting is because karma makes more sense to me than sin ever did, and admittedly I did find some of the gnostic ideas interesting when I looked into early Christianity, which somewhat does resemble some Buddhist ideas about suffering and world being an illusion. Ultimately, I don't know if I'll come around to Buddhism, but at least I'll come out more knowledgeable about it.
>>18646636>indra/ganesha/avalokiteshvara venerationThese are folk religion practices that got folded into Buddhism>reborn in the peaceful realmsThis exists, but emphasizing it over nirvana is looking at therevada through a pure land lens
>>18646801>I'd say losing my faith in Trinity was the first step Doesn't Buddhism have this issue to a much greater extent? It claims that everything is ultimately one in the same way the Trinity are ultimately one.>Then the problem of evil and the problem of Hell and HeavenBuddhism has the Hell Realms and the higher realms of bliss as well>Finally, the fact that Jesus fulfilled none of the propheciesNot so! The Old Testament gives a countdown until the Messiah’s death, and we know Jesus fulfilled this down to the very year and month. Daniel 9:24-26 has the prophecy, it says: "Listen, and understand. Seven sevens plus sixty-two sevens will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until a ruler – the Messiah – comes. Jerusalem will be rebuilt with streets and strong defenses, despite the distressing times. After this period of sixty-two sevens, the Messiah will be killed…"So let’s do the math on that: first, it says “Seven sevens plus sixty-two sevens” will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until the Messiah dies. So that’s 49 (7x7) plus 434 (62x7) = 483 years.Fortunately, it later tells us when to start the countdown. Nehemiah 2:1 states that King Artaxerxes of Persia gave the order in his “twentieth year”, which was 445 BC, according to Britannica, in "the month of Nisan" (the Hebrew month corresponding to our March and April). So the Messiah would die in Nisan of 32 AD. This was exactly when Jesus died!So, knowing this, we can calculate exactly when it’s saying the Messiah would die. And, of course, we don't have any documents pre-dating Buddhism that predict Buddha, so if prophecy is your interest you will be disappointed there.>and the resurrection can't really be provenDo you believe Buddha's ascension or his other supernatural abilities are proven?
>>18646833> So let’s do the math on that: first, it says “Seven sevens plus sixty-two sevens” will pass from the time the command is given to rebuild Jerusalem until the Messiah dies. So that’s 49 (7x7) plus 434 (62x7) = 483 yearWhat’s up with christfags and schizobabble numerology?
>>18646833>Buddhism has the Hell Realms and the higher realms of bliss as wellNTA but a meaningful distinction between the Hell realms and Heavenly realms in Buddhism vs Heaven and Hell in Christianity, is that the former are impermanent states of existence, while the latter are eternal.Should one be sent to a Hell realm, their time there is ultimately finite, and will be reborn in another state of existence. Same goes for the Heavenly realms
>>18646845>What’s up with christfags and schizobabble numerology?That's a fun aspect to the Bible
Theravada Buddhism Forum: dhammawheel.comMahayana/Vajrayana Buddhism forum: dharmawheel.net>What books should I read to understand the religion more, and which denomination is a good one for a Westerner?Dhammapada is a good startIn The Buddha's Words by Bhikku BodhiYouTube: John David (formly known as Venerable John David Paññobhāsa who disrobed but still knowledgeable in Buddhism): https://www.youtube.com/@pannobhasaEnglish Buddhist Monk: https://www.youtube.com/@englishmonkClear Mountain Monastery: https://www.youtube.com/@ClearMountainMonasteryAjahn Sona: https://www.youtube.com/@AjahnSonaBhikku Bodhi's lecture: The Buddha's Teaching As It Is (Playlist): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlLsJKuLUkUoXxZWJcMNVbavrowbBY7p0Yuttadhammo Bhikku: https://www.youtube.com/@yuttadhammoSamaneri Jayasāra - Wisdom of the Masters: https://www.youtube.com/@SamaneriJayasara
>>18646845Anon it's basic math. It looks mildly odd from our perspective since we use sets of ten years instead of sets of seven years, but I would imagine that on /his/ of all places "not all timekeeping systems use decades" would be straightforward.We can prove from non-Christian sources that Jesus truly did die in Nisan of 32 AD, just as the Messiah was going to.We know it was Nisan since, as can be read at http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_43.html, the Talmud says in Sanhedrin 43a that "On the eve of the Passover Yeshu the Nasarean was hanged". Passover takes place in the month of Nisan, confirming the month.That he died in that year has outside confirmation from the non-Christian historian Phlegon. While he didn't discuss Jesus directly, he did write about the darkness and earthquake that took place when he was crucified. He wrote: “in the fourth year of the 202nd olympiad, an eclipse of the sun happened, greater and more excellent than any that had happened before it; at the sixth hour, day turned into dark night, so that the stars were seen in the sky, and an earthquake in Bithynia toppled many buildings of the city of Nicaea”. (Source: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_chronicle_03_part2.htm)The fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad is equivalent to our 32/33 AD, confirming the year.
>>18646847He wasn't clear about what specifically he meant by the "problem" of these two things, but whatever it is I can't see it being resolved by them lasting untold quadrillions of years.
>>18646801>karma makes more sense to me than sin ever didKarma isn't real, there are reincarnation cases of children reporting past lives, and the personality and behaviour of the past life personality had no bearing on the health and socioeconomic status of the children. Some of the children who have memories of past lives even remember picking their current parents before they were born.
>>18646895I don’t care you schizo retard.
>>18646920Next you'll be calling someone schizo for pointing out that you need go convert for Julian dates before 1580.
>>18646467> What books should I read to understand the religion moreEverything Buddha taught (dharma/karma/samsara/svabhava/nirvana/anatta/etc.) is lifted from the Bhagavad Gita.
>>18646958I'm surprised more people don't see how ununique Buddhism is. It's just slightly more lax Jainism.
>Which denomination is a good one for a westerner?Whichever one makes the most sense to you. There's no wrong answer as long as you follow the path.Theravada is closer to secular (but not exactly secular), Mahayana is closer to cosmological. Vajrayana, particularly Tibetan Buddhism, inherited a lot of household deities from shamanistic religions which existed in those regions prior to the wider adoption of Buddhism. Zen is difficult. Nichiren is simple. Navayana is controversial and progressive. Secular Buddhism is even more controversial but I believe those who follow the path do not need to believe in any cosmology or esoteric rules governing reality that we can't already observe in order to benefit themselves and all sentient beings.Shop around. Ask a lot of questions to people who are smart and humble. Don't be afraid of making mistakes as long as you continue to return to the path.
>>18646467Why would a retard go from a made up belief to another?Maybe grow a stomach and face life you dog ass faggot
>>18647007are you happier after having said this or do you feel as bad as you felt before you said this?
>>18647013>Thruth is... Le bad!!I feel just O.K.
>>18646958>Everything Buddha taught (dharma/karma/samsara/svabhava/nirvana/anatta/etc.) is lifted from the Bhagavad Gita.By "lifted" do you mean plagiarized or that the Bhagavad Gita/Krishna cancelled out what the Buddha taught? Buddha predates the Bhagavad Gita/Krishna.
>>18647244Whether or not Bhagavad Gita predates the Buddha, Buddhism’s vocabulary is already present in the older Indian spiritual world from which both emerged.
>>18646467ban poopjeets from 4chan
>>18647360Where would e-christians be without thirdie browns?
>>18647360buddhism is very much not an indian religion. the indians who practice buddhism are navayanans and they're basically the same as californians. sri lankans practice theravada buddhism and those bitches are not on the internet
>>18646958It's the opposite; Vedanta is basically the Buddha's teachings repurposed to fit within Vedic orthodoxy. Once you get down to it, the "highest teachings" of Advaita, Traikika Shaivism, Yogacara, and Madhyamaka are all basically the same.>but anatta! eternalism!Calling what remains after everything else has been attenuated a "self" or not calling it that is basically a matter of taste. It's certainly not a self in the way the word "self" is used in common parlance. Like all things it's somewhere in the middle ;)>>18646467Read the Buddha's authentic sutras first. That's inarguably the best starting point. After that the Abhidamma/other Theravada stuff should be compared with the Mahayana sutras. Finally read some Yogacara material; by this point you should be able to pick out the works that address your questions and concerns. >>18646652 is a great chart. Thanks for promoting the welfare of sentient beings!
>>18647492Buddhism isn't true my manYou won't get reborn somewhere different because you try not to think thoughts for a while Buddhism is in fact bad for sentient beings since it gives them a completely false view of the world
>>18646833See it's very interesting, because 483 years from 457 BC (decree of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem) comes out to 26 AD, which is a pretty solid estimate for the baptism of Jesus. (I don't think the vague approval mentioned in Nehemiah 2 counts as a "commandment".) The fact that only a few years (less than seven if we take 30 AD to be the date of Jesus' crucifixion) pass before the death of the Messiah alluded to in Daniel 9:26 means that there's no contradiction between 69 weeks "unto the Messiah the Prince" and 69 weeks before "Messiah be cut off". So that part of the prophecy is intact. But it gets a little tricky with the 70th week, since it was 40 years after the Resurrection that the 2nd temple was destroyed, whereas Daniel 9:27 says "in the midst of the [70th] week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease". This can be scooted around by saying that Jesus' death before the end of said week abrogated the Jewish Law.Now I'm not a Christian in the sense that I belong to a church or consider the NT scripture, but there was definitely something up between the Jewish prophets and Jesus. I do believe that Jesus somehow came back from the dead, but I can't wrap my head around why or how. Paul's explanations don't do it for me.
>>18647577And what, may I ask, is the correct view of the world?
>>18647591That Buddha was likely an Indian teacher little different from the Jains, his words are all but lost and irrecoverable due to the centuries of oral telling they underwent before being written down, and that the Pali canon is no more uniquely true than the writings of Plato or other ancient philosophers.
>>186476061) Oral tradition can preserve things for a crazy long time. The Vedas are basically unchanged from how they were in the second millennium BC. The historical value in the Pali Canon is evidenced by the fact that the same discourses are found in Chinese text collections called Agamas that underwent different chains of transmission. To say that the Buddha's words are lost and irrecoverable is, frankly, a dumb take.>no more uniquely true than the writings of Plato2) Yeah, Plato and the Buddha both had very profound things to say. The Buddha just had more to say, and his teachings on the three marks of existence and dependent origination remain extremely relevant. What's your point? I'm not a Buddhist and I don't think of his words as infallible holy writ
>>18647625>I'm not a BuddhistHm. Well, what religion are you?
>>18647642I don't follow any creed to the letter. I'm an unironic perennialist, though, and for me the "prisca theologia" is nondualism, which gets expressed in roughly the same way by Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Platonist, and Jewish exegetes. Christianity is the big outlier but as I said in >>18647587 I do believe there was something very special about Jesus. However it never developed toward nondualism even though some sayings of Jesus seem to point toward it.
>>18646814>these are ____ practices that got folded into BuddhismTo attain nirvana, one must cultivate all factors of the eightfold path. To practice virtue and skillful action, it is often necessary to meditate upon the skillful qualities of monks, Maitreya, and deities, to venerate them, and to attempt to emulate their ways of life. Hence, these practices aren’t just folded into Buddhism, they are active ways of cultivating virtue in oneself for good karma and preparation for meditation. The Buddha asks the practitioner to look up to the virtuous and noble ones several times in the scriptures, this is merely an extension of doing so.
>>18646467>denominationthe eternal christcuckyou need to let that shit go
>>18646467>After losing my faith in Christianity, I've become more interested in Buddhism.Why though? Are you more comfortable with a religion which gives you full permission to act like a degenerate? Buddhism is such a meme religion.
>>18647748buddhism forbids sexual misconduct for laypeople and buddhist monks are celibatethe fuck are you even saying you kike worshipper?
>>18647753>buddhism forbids sexual misconduct for laypeople and buddhist monks are celibate Why though
>>18647758because it's bad for you and an obstacle on the way to enlightenment
>>18647748What? "No drinking" is about as strict as things get by modern western standards, not to mention the uposatha precepts
>>18647804Can you not be "enlightened" and do that anyways? Whats stopping you from doing both.
>>18647816Read Snp 4.1
>>18646467they're the exact same life denying shit, stop seeking for answers and truth in human ideas of eternity aka nothingness
>>18647821Isnt the Buddha a literal who though? I mean what makes him different than say Socrates or Plato? Do people follow him just because they vibe with him? Not sure why you are supposed to follow the teachings of some guy. What makes him stand out in thay way and not be just another cool teacher? Im serious.
>>18647878>Isnt the Buddha a literal who though?Nah he was born as a prince in a royal palace. The shock of experiencing real-life outside the palace walls, for the first time, is what triggered his path of enlightenment... I think. Im not a Buddhist but that's what I remember
>>18647878https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaññaphala_Sutta>>18647852Never made sense to me why people want "life-affirming" religions. Life is a crock of total shit.
>>18647884I would trust that about as much as Muslim oral traditions about Muhammad splitting the moon. Those are even way closer in time to Muhammad than anything about Buddha is to the man, and we have at least a claimed chain of narrators whereas we know nothing with any certainty about who passed the oral traditions about Buddha
>>18647891>Never made sense to me why people want "life-affirming" religions. Life is a crock of total shit.So kill yourself now then?
>>18647895It would cause unnecessary suffering for others, plus I would be reborn in shit circumstances.
>>18647895>so just be born again into an even shittier life?Interesting solution
>>18647893>I would trust that about as much as Muslim oral traditions about Muhammad splitting the moon.That's dumb. The story of Buddha focuses on meditation and self-reflection, which led to appreciating life and nature + a neat emotional state in his mind. It's nothing supernatural or as absurd as "splitting the moon". Stupid comparison
>>18647905Is the Buddha thought to be divine? I mean the stoics did the same when it comes to self-reflecting about the meaning of life. Yet you dont see golden statues of them everywhere, they dont get revered as the Buddha does. If anything stoicism is thought as a way of life and not a religion. I wonder why buddhism gets that moniker while stoicism doesnt.
>>18647918>Is the buddha thought to be divine?He is thought to be above the gods. He is one with The One. The stoics did not claim this achievement>I wonder whyBecause you are of low intelligence. May you become wiser. I've replied to you three times; I shan't do it anymore
>>18647922Lol. I accept your concession. He is just another cool teacher, blud. Cope about it. The stoics literally did the exact same thing as the Buddha. Those are also cool teachers.
>>18647918Because christians did a good job at killing off most people following the pagan philosophers and now stoicism is a "lifestyle" promoted by podcasters in the current year. You see a similar phenomenon with "secular buddhism", although actual buddhists are still alive
>>18647918>Is the Buddha thought to be divine?Fair point, there is that element to it. Divinity as defined by Buddhists would still be worlds different as compared to how a Muslims would define it though. Buddhism is a philosophy which implies a psychological system of interrogating truth, before it is a scripture based religion which requires 'belief', to my understanding.
>>18647935>Buddhism is a philosophy which implies a psychological system of interrogating truth,It does seem to resemble that. Its very similar in that sense to philosophy. Except this has the supernatural aspect of reincarnation to it. Maybe its the supernatural aspect the distinction on what makes it a religion? Because otherwise Buddha would be just a guy who sat down and thought really hard about reality. And that doesnt seem to be that special.
>>18647905Buddha literally talks with the devil and claims he can fly up to the sun in the Pali canon
>>18647949>the supernatural aspect of reincarnation to it.Plato and the stoics also did that, and they're "cool teachers" as you put it. I'd assume the pali canon's claims of sariputta's ability to walk on water or the buddhas omniscience would make buddhism "special", but you seem committed to not thinking about that
>>18647960>I'd assume the pali canon's claims of sariputta's ability to walk on water or the buddhas omniscience would make buddhism "special", but you seem committed to not thinking about thatWell to be fair no one brought this point until now. This is the first thing I seen that would put buddhism aside from stoics, as they dont have anything supernatural going on with them. But if walking on water is what makes it special, then does it loop back to being a faith-based movement? Also, was it only he (assuming he was just a mere mortal man) who could walk on water? How come no other buddhist monk has been able to replicate such feat?
>>18647971>no one brought this point until nowMaybe because it's obvious to anyone with a basic knowledge of buddhism? Either you haven't even skimmed wikipedia or you're doing a bit>first thing I seen that would put buddhism aside from stoicsThere are so many differences between buddhism and stoicism in terms of metaphysics that I don't know why you would think that they're the same unless you knew nothing about both>faith-based movementYes, unless you are a stream-enterer (or close to one) you have to take the buddha at his word. You can do buddhist practices without faith in the buddha, and you can get a favorable rebirth without ever hearing about buddhism, but its soteriology is based on agreeing with the buddha on practically everything which first requires believing most of what he said>How come no other buddhist monkAny monk that's reached the fourth jhana can, that's not getting into flight, teleportation, mind-made bodies etc. Plenty of modern monks like ajuhn mun have been claimed to have performed supernatural acts. It's forbidden by the vinaya to do that publicly because it may cause people to become monks for selfish reasons. A more cynical reading would be that it's "forbidden" because they don't actually have supernatural powers
>>18647991>Maybe because it's obvious to anyone with a basic knowledge of buddhism?Not really, most people think about the Buddha being a guy who thought real hard until he reached Nirvana, but him having supernatural powers is not basic knowledge. >There are so many differences between buddhism and stoicism in terms of metaphysics that I don't know why you would think that they're the same unless you knew nothing about both.Stoics dont make any metaphysics claims as far as I know. Buddhists are the ones who push the unproven case for reincarnation.But its like you say. It seems to be faith-based. I guess my point is why not be a stoic instead of a buddhist? I dont see the main benefit in chosing to be a buddhist instead of an stoic. You are right to point out that seeing the supposed supernatural powers of the monks would make people believers. Its odd that they are afraid of showing people their powers due to fear of attracting a bad crowd. But wouldnt it also be the most effective way to help people by pointing them to the right way to Nirvana? Seems strange to have this tool to help people and keep it to yourself due to what essentially boils down to fear.
>>18648003>Stoics dont make any metaphysics claims as far as I know.Then you clearly don't know about stoicism as well, achieving eudaemonia through unity with the logos is the entire point>why not be a stoic instead of a buddhistSelf v.s. nonself, permanent unity with the Absolute, desire for justice with punishments/rewards after death, culture, the fact that one is a living religion with hundreds of extant traditions while the other was killed by neoplatonism and christianity thousands of years ago, the fact that most neopagans just really like zeus. There's a reason there's millions of buddhists and not many stoics today
>>18647958And then he says he doesn't do more miracles because miracles are dogshit. Straight up gives examples of how communication at a distance would be outpaced by a device (we know this as a phone), and how healing is useless when advanced medicine might outpace miracles (antibiotics, etc.). This is the Iron Age, and yet the guy was predicting that sufficiently advanced technology is greater than any miracle he could make. Naturally, he said that the real object of value is not any miracle, but the Dharma (roughly translated as "philosophy", "duty" and "path", essentially the Buddhist doctrines) that he taught, as these cannot be determined via any technology but only through the mind of one who is enlightened. As a result, the Buddha's rate of miracles in the scriptures (excluding legendary tales like Jataka) pales in comparison to say, Jesus, who has chapter after chapter and verse after verse filled with miracles.
