How did he evolve from socialist to a fascist?
In modern times it's all about big goverment and maniuplating the masses by telling them>you getting your shit in order and your life being good isn't your responsibility, its of the state. we will fix all your problems for youAnd blaming it all on nazis/jews/communists, it really doesn't matter which
>>18650408he just didn't like the fact most of his fellow commies weren't nationalistic like he was so he just made his own version
>>18650408there was a world war
>>186504081. Early 20th century socialism effectively has failed. People will babble about how socialism got everything right but if it's 1913 and you'd ask a socialist party official how will socialism be brought to life then most of them would tell you that eventually the great powers will go to war and then, due to great general strike their gears will come to a halt and the armies will stop and the power will be given to the striking workers.In reality all socialist parties and majority of socialist organisations in general lined up behind their respective states, including most of them in Russia. 2. This caused gigantic intellectual void forming in the broader left wing. Some of it was later filled by people who could see no wrong being done in the Soviet Union, some wasn't. Among other things, one of the movements that you may have heard of that came out of this intellectual crisis was the frankfurt school/cultural marxists.3. The big slight Mussolini saw in all this was that the principal part of marxist social analysis - about class solidarity being oh-so-powerful and primal to humans was just wrong. The most class-conscious people on the earth, socialist party members across Europe ended up defaulting to my nation good your nation bad - clearly showing what kind of solidarity was more powerful in practice. Aside from few cases of small countries surrounded by enemeies(Serbia, Montenegro) no country surrendered because the army was decisively defeated but because their bonds with their states have dissolved often losing a war that was lost(Germans lost with Brest-Litvosk, a mere continuation of war in however limited quality would make Soviet Russia see the end of the conflict in the winner camp and get its slice of the pie). Around him a coalition of different movements(including anarcho-syndicalism to make it more fun) has coalesced and that's what became known as PNF.
>>18650439>often losing a war that was lostwon*
>>18650408He started talking to socialists.
>evolved?
>>18650408When does socialism ever not turn into fascism?
Because fascism is basically just socialists who wants to be socialists but also die-hard nationalists.In my country (Sweden) we had an exact same person like Mussolini called Nils Flyg who was a communist but then realised that he actually hated the USSR and was a nationalist, yet he wanted to still be a socialist so... he became a nazi.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nils_FlygMussolini believed himself to be a socialist to his final days.The reason he got kicked out of the Italian socialist party was because he was a nationalist.
>>18650413In fact he didnt like the whole "class-struggle" thing at all.Fascism was basically "how do we create a state>everything kind of society without going full civil war between peasants and bourgeoisie?"Hence you got the fascist corporatism which tolerates classes and capitalism but still has the socialist idea of every enterprise being organized and ruled by the state and whos main purpose is to meet the needs and interests of the state.
>>18650761>Mussolini believed himself to be a socialist to his final days.One of the guys who was shot alongside Mussolini was a leader of the Socialists in Pre-Fascist Italy, was a great admirer of Mussolini and Lenin at the same time, had a nickname that was something like The Red Pope of Fascism, and considered himself a communist and a fascist at the same time
>>18650408How much mewing do I have to do to get a Mussolini jaw?
>>18650408It's what happens to every smart socialist. You join because you read the theory and agree with it in the abstract, but then you realize your fellow leftists are a bunch of spiteful mutants, so you reconsider
>>18650780Because fascists and socialists pretty much emerged from the same grassroot people. something socialists in 2026 has a complexity over, hence why they're desperately trying to monopolize the word "fascist" and being le far right, when in reality they have more in common with fascists than they would ever want to believe.Hence you got the typical 2026 meme that fascism is le racists, when real fascism was never about race and everything about turning the state into some sort of quasi-religious deity for the public.
I’m a fascist.
>>18650882You couldnt describe fascism even if your life depended on it.Also 4chan has an 18+ age restriction.
Socialism always turns to fascism when the marxist economics fail. When you face famines only a tyrant can keep the state together so the true believers happily hand over all power to the despot.
Why does leftoids fear fascists so much and are so traumatized by them they see it everywhere even though fascists hold many ideas that many leftoids also have and they haven't had a significant political movement in 80 years?
>>18650761This guy looks like a total psycho. Holy shit.
>>18650887“Fascism is when ICE sends illegal browns back home” -Giovani Gentile
>>18650408He realised how faggy Socialists are
>>18650408>>18650521
>>18651060Can you blame him with that Norwood?
>>18650882You're an incel loser
>>18650408Mussolini was very radical but became disillusioned by the proletariat, which was supposed to act in his reading of Marxist theory as a great heroic force that will shape history, but it just wasn't doing the thing. He also blamed the leadership of reformist socialist parties for why various strikes in Italy failed to produce a revolution (ironically a big one that disillusioned him was in 1911 during the Italo-Turkish War, which he opposed and spent some time in prison for helping try to stop with a general strike).When WWI started he broke with the socialists completely and threw himself into being a pro-war nationalist while keeping a radical-revolutionary character. He also became convinced that capitalism was here to stay. It's kind of an odd thing reading about him at this time. The international solidarity of the workers can't function because of national rivalries (and after all the German socialists endorsed a huge military budget), so he doubled down on nationalism, yet that made sense to him since bolstering the nation would build up the productive forces, which makes patriotism and socialism compatible. Likewise intervening in the war would serve both the nation and socialism. Also he came to view Marxism as a German thing. Marx and Engels were pan-Germans, the Bolsheviks were also bad because they were Marxists and thus objectively allies of the German Reich (not just because they pulled Russia out of the war). The principle of class struggle no longer applied. The proletariat and bourgeoisie are good/bad depending on their patriotism. The proletariat is good when it works for the country like the "productive" bourgeoisie in contrast to "parasitic" bourgeoisie.I think he also had a deep psychological need to be an action man.
>>18650439Another thing is that socialist parties would adopt a "minimum program." Marx and Engels also had a 10-point minimum program in the Communist Manifesto. They would theoretically aim for higher, but adopt these minimum things to appeal to more immediate concerns. But I think what happens is these socialist parties grew a lot by recruiting people who were interested in the minimum program and not the greater, heroic world-transformation stuff and that changed the parties to become reformist socialists.I don't think there's really any great analogy to this in our own time, honestly. But I think it's a bit like socialists wanting to overthrow capitalism, but they want to appeal to people too, so they say "we'll give everyone healthcare if you vote for us," and then over time the party just becomes the healthcare party and it's no longer a militant revolution thing.
I want to point out one more thing.It was widely held by people from a variety of political ideologies that the old world was coming apart and something FUNDAMENTALLY new was being born. Even if you believe that private property and capitalism are here to stay, psychologically the feeling was that the world was on the precipice of an epochal transition.Look at it from their perspective. Mussolini was born in 1883. The first powered airplane flight was in 1903. The first one in Italy was in 1909 when Mussolini was 26 years old. Today a big transition is unmanned aerial vehicles but back then the transition was from aviation to *no* aviation other than hot-air balloons. This represents man's dominion over nature and the universe! Pioneers of new worlds!There was just a lot of this, a very radical jump from horse-drawn to horsepower civilization within the span of a lifetime. Anyways, one could reject Marxism but still draw the conclusion that the 19th-century bourgeois liberal civilization was coming apart and was ~destined~ in some way to be replaced by something completely different. I liked how the Mussolini show depicted his enthusiasm for aviation at 31:40 here:https://youtu.be/UyExF17TvWYAlso he convinces the blackshirts to Pokemon go to the polls later by starting out with a made-up story about how he was lifted into stormy clouds while flying to Fiume and it was this dangerous, cutting-edge thing. That didn't actually happen but these blackshirt guys are like waow based. But people wanted to believe in these new heroes of the technological age.
>>18651060He definetly gives you Auchwitz commandant vibes.The point is that he (and everyone who followed him) were originally communists, and continued to view themselves as socialists even after aligning with nazi Germany.No matter how hard the left fights the tide on this, they wont escape the fact that being a nazi (a National-Socialist) really isnt far away from simply being a socialist and a nationalist.
>>18651241I think psychology/personality also plays a big role. Also can see it especially for someone like Flyg whose loyalty was not to his own country but a different one ruled by a totalitarian state, and the loyalties can flip. Flyg btw died of a heart attack in January 1943 which was during the period in which the Sixth Army was encircled at Stalingrad. Wonder if that caused it.The tendency in politics to hunt heretics and drum people out for perceived disloyalty also plays a role. The Stalinists did that a lot. They had a theory that social democrats were "social fascists" but maybe that can become a self-fulfilling prophecy if your agenda is focused primarily on politically assassinating the social democrats. You create a lot of future fascists because of how awful the communists treated them. Then it's even more acute when the people hunting heretics are themselves hypocritical in some kind of way.
>>18650408Marxist*"Mussolini From Marxist to Nationalist Collectivist""If the 19th century was the century of the individual, we are free to believe that this is the 'collective' century," wrote Benito Mussolini. He began his career as an ardent Marxist, even editing a socialist magazine. However, World War I and his perceived failure of Communist internationalism to galvanize workers led him to reconsider. Rather than abandoning collectivism, he sought a unifying force stronger than class: nationalism. In The Doctrine of Fascism, he argued that "the nation has not disappeared," emphasizing that class distinctions obstruct true unity: "Class cannot destroy the nation. Class reveals itself as a collection of interests, but the nation is a history of sentiments, traditions, language, culture, and a race; it is a spiritual community."Mussolini criticized socialism, not for its collectivist nature, but for its inability to unify all segments of society. He described Fascism as an ideology that subsumed the individual into the state:Liberalism denied the State in the name of the individual Fascism reassertsThe rights of the State as expressing the real essence of the individual.... The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value."https://mises.org/mises-wire/nazism-fascism-and-communism-warring-sons-common-father
>>18650408What both fascism and socialism have in common is their common adherence to the idea that history is a process reflecting human traits.For marxists, history is the process of the underclass revolting and seizing the means of production to produce accordingly to their needs and potentialOn the other hand, fascists believed that while the process of history as the expression of man's behavior was true, it wasn't classes but nations who actually directed it.Once you understand this, it's not hard to see why Mussolini or why many communists for that matter became fascists. They simply extended their analysis of history to their people, and slowly discarded their focus on the working class. This was often the result of disappointments in the worker's movement, which in Mussolini's case grew with Italy's socialist party.
>>18651241>No matter how hard the left fights the tide on this, they wont escape the fact that being a nazi (a National-Socialist) really isnt far away from simply being a socialist and a nationalist.When Nazi party got powerful enough, it attracted so many new members from ex-communists that they got a mocking nickname, beefsteak nazis. Brown on outside, red on inside.But yeah, fascists and communists will never admit it, but they are much closer to each other than they care to acknowledge. Both believe in the end of liberal-capitalist society, both are willing to go for harsh measures, both advocate central state control, both believe in creation of a new society to replace the old one. Even though those are extremely general statements, once anyone believes in all of those core ideas, it makes you prime candidate for either communist or fascist, which one depends more on details. And afterwards, sliding from one to other is mostly up to on where you end up in internationalist - nationalist axis etc., and that can always slide afterwards.And I guess that this also feeds into the extreme hate between fascists and communists. Both hated liberal democracies, sure, but even more offensive is the idea of seeing other ideology adapting the transformative new world mindset (as >>18651227 mentioned) and then getting it wrong. It’s a time for societal transformation, and *they* think that it’s their place to replace rotting old world, etc.
>>18650408World War I
>>18650408Fascism is a kind of socialism with extra steps so it's not that hard to imagine it
>>18650882Have sex
>>18653424get a job, chapofag
>>18651476>But yeah, fascists and communists will never admit it, but they are much closer to each other than they care to acknowledge.It makes sense. The same material conditions which give rise to fascism are also conductive to the rise of communism, and vice versa, even if fascists and communists end up on different sides of the class divide
>>18650882Have gay sex.
>>18653713>>18651476It's because both of them are revolutionary.People seriously misunderstand the 'revolutionary nationalism' in fascism.They think fascist nationalism is authoritarian patriotism and conservative laws/norms with a bit of terrorizing minorities.Basically modern day Saudi Arabia, Turkey and China.Except no serious historian or social scientist labels these as fascist because they arent. These governments wants you to stay quiet, to stay politically retarded, to not get involved, to not stick your nose up because if you do it will get hammered down. That being politically involved applies only to the government.This is in direct contrast to the revolutionary nationalism in fascism, which basically wants the opposite, it wants everyone to get involved. It wants everyone to tune themselves into politics and into the movement, which is exactly what communism wants as well. In order for a communist societ to work, everyone must be onboard with the ideology, everyone must start to view themselves as class-related and to work for something bigger than themselves and abandon personal interests and pursue of wealth. They must be politically tuned into the idea of communism and the goal of the communist state. They must 'rejuvinate' their souls and identity to a lost concept of a classless society before the burgoisie and nobility had been created.That's what makes a movement revolutionary. It destroys the entire foundations of the old society by getting everyone involved, not just a tiny group of people who seize power one day and then tell the rest of the population that this is whats going to happen and nobody can question them. This is why revolutionary movements wants these kind of mass-rallies, and people wearing uniforms to create a collective mass, and to get everyone involved in organizations starting already in your youth.The fascist wants pretty much copy-paste of what I just wrote about communist movements, but from a nation-prespecive
>>18650408>How did he evolve from socialist to a fascist?it was a small step for a man, but a big leap for humanity.
