Is Judaism indisputably true?
>>18672142no.
>>18672632Well it certainly appears to be so from both the christian and islamic perspectives
Judaism is the religion of truth-seeking.
>>18672142Rabbinical interpretation of the Torah and Old Testament and other sapiential texts are accepted as true by SOME practitioners of Judaism. Y'know, the Babylonian Talmud, the Zohar and stuff. But these things (I don't know about Islam) mark the evolution of Judaism as separate from Christianity from their background of Hebrew and Mosaic teachingsAlso, this>>18672772nigga is an idiot
>>18672142true in what wayin any case you gain nothing from converting to it and they aren't asking for converts
>>18672793You don't need to convert to judaism to be saved. In fact you're better off not converting and just following the noahide laws which makes way more sense than having to worship a man in order to get to heaven, something God explicitly states will result in the worst possible punishments in the afterlife. It also means that muslims and unitarian christians and even members of other religions will all get to share in the world to come if they are righteous, which makes sense logically from a God's eye view even though it means these other religions are mistaken at least in part.
>>18672786The Talmud and the Zohar are simply documents analyzing the meaning of passages in the Torah. This would be like saying Christianity and Islam are no longer Christianity and Islam because church fathers/quranic scholars have produced works analyzing those texts that believers now rely upon. Jews are still the only followers of the original Torah as Christians have explicitly thrown it out, despite God saying the Torah is eternal, and Muslims have claimed it is corrupted and useless now despite their own Quran claiming it is still 100% reliable and from God. Both religions explicitly affirm Judaism as true in their own sacred texts.
>>18672142I think you feel this way because you are comparing it to Christianity and Islam. When you compare to those 2, Judaism seems much more logical and closer to the truth, so you jump to the conclusion of it being true. But, that doesn’t mean Judaism is true. I’m a Jew myself (breaking Shabbat right now lol) and I stopped believing.
>>18672831>When you compare to those 2, Judaism seems much more logical and closer to the truthsaid nobody ever
>>18672849It is literally presupposed as the absolute truth prior to the subsequent revelations of the respective religions
>>18672868the talmud was written in 500 AD and is even more retarded than the hadith which is saying something
>>18672871They're not even remotely similar documents so not sure why you'd compare them unless you literally had a sub-5th grade understanding of the different religions
>>18672804>most other religions EXCEPT CHRISTIANITY are ok from Judaism's povthe fact that Christianity is always the reviled underdog religion that the others are always the most hostile towards just makes me think it's more likely to be the truth and that the others are all suspect since they are all in agreement on this one point and a monolith against Christianity in particular; especially given that Jesus literally prophecies that it will be like this for his followers, that the world will hate them. Christianity is like the only religion I know of that has this 'everyone will be your enemy and the world will be against you if you follow it, you are not guaranteed any positive incentives to keep following it if you do' premise built into it
>>18673200>reviled underdogLmao, it is the world's most popular religion with literal billions of adherents. Pick 4 people randomly from the world and you will get a Christian among them. Even better, the amount of people who have heard about Christianity is staggering, almost the entire living population on earth outside of isolated jungle/desert tribes. The others are a monolith against Christianity because it is the normie, common religion, the "wide way" so to speak.Judaism by contrast has a paltry 16.5 million people, lower than the state of New York. And it suffers from far more labeling, stereotypes, historical aggression, and enmity than the oh-so-persecuted Christians. Nobody will bat an eye at a Christian millionaire, but a Jewish one is always suspect somehow.
>>18673219For most of Christianity's existence, Christians were being persecuted. They were persecuted under Rome for hundreds of years until Constantine and then new persecutions happened internally in the Byzantine empire thanks to an iconoclastic emperor and then while Christianity was in the west, the Ottomans took over the east and were oppressing Christians there for a thousand years until they fell, and then there was mass persecution of Christians under the Soviet Union, and now, recently, as soon as Christianity enters an era of 'peace' immediately it is set upon by new atheism and progressivism trying to destroy it and Christians have meanwhile not stopped being persecuted by Islam in the middle-east the whole time. There has literally been no point in history where Christians weren't being persecuted somewhere.
>>18673243>They were persecuted under RomeAs was the Jews, as was several other groups>persecuted by the Byzantinesonly an iconoclastic fraction that existed in the eastern half, not true of all Christians everywhere so it was hardly universal>then the Ottomans took over the east*casually skips over several centuries of Christian dominion*>oppressing Christians there*casually skips over the fact that Europe and later North America were still prosperous Christian dominions well into the 19th century, and housed the majority of the Christian populace*>and then there was mass persecution of Christians under the Soviet UnionRussian Orthodox Christians, you mean. The same guys who had unchecked power during the rule of the Tsars and had the absolute gall to call themselves the true Eastern Roman Empire after the fall of Constantinople. Oh, and it's not even like the Soviets targeted Christians only, Buddhists, Muslims, and religious Jews were also persecuted.>as soon as Christianity enters an era of "peace"Anon it was already in an era of peace for the majority of its populace from Constantine onwards, you are extrapolating from the experiences of a few groups in unfortunate historical circumstances to be universally true.>immediately it is set upon by new atheism and progressivismOh boo hoo, lesbian dominas exist and it's hurting my soul, I'm so persecuted!>Christians have meanwhile not stopped being persecuted by Islam in the middle-east the whole timeThe Middle Eastern Muslims persecute other Muslims anyway. Go ask them their opinion of Shia Muslims, of Quranist Muslims, or of Sufi movements. There's a reason why all Jews in Arabia immediately flocked to Israel asap when it became a thing.>There has literally been no point in history where Christians weren't being persecuted somewhere.With the sheer numbers of Christianity both today and historically, it's a statistical inevitability that *someone*, *somewhere* is being persecuted in *time period*.
>>18673243How many countries were Christians kicked out of?
>>18673200>>18673243they want to pretend to be oppressed so bad
im sure a religion that thinks a wire around manhattan will fool god is "indisputably" true
>>18673792It's not fooling God. Being able to maintain a wire around a place fundamentally changes your relationship to that place and so the laws of the sabbath are different within the bounds of wherever you are able to maintain it.
>>18673243No, early Christians were not persecuted in Rome, rather they were prosecuted for crimes such as vandalism, lynchings of pagan priesthoods, and overall being violent savages no different from BLM. No, Nero was not wrong or lying when he said Christians burnt down Rome (he wasn’t even in Rome at the time), Christians already viewed Rome as the kingdom of Satan on earth and it’s gods as demons, so it’s not out of place for a Christian to want to burn it all down.
>>18673792Those Orthodox Jews who are constantly trying to find loopholes around every law are very retarded. They should either become Reform or Reconstructionist and just straight up disregard the laws or actually practice them as they know full well they're meant to be practiced. Their attempts at dancing around them are just embarassing.
>>18673243>then there was mass persecution of Christians under the Soviet UnionEntirely justified. The Russian Orthodox Church was a branch of the Tsarist regime who aided in the oppression of the working class. They were a reactionary institution who obstructed all development, it is not ok to give the people hell on earth under the justification of “Heaven will come later”.Anyone who claims the revolution was “orchestrated by Jews” is a literal retard>Why would the peasantry and workers rise up against nepotistic monarchs who never worked a day in their life and hoard most of the country’s wealth? Why would they rise up against the aristocrats and landowners who treat them like shit and send their sons to die in unnecessary wars?>Surely it must be because of the Jews. An organic uprising is impossible and would never happen. After all, the ruling class who values nothing but their personal power and wealth totally have my best interests in mind.
>>18673928What law are they disregarding?
>>18673934Reform? Whichever they feel like disregarding, as it's incredibly pick and choose. Orthodox? They're not 'disregarding' laws but instead pursuing loopholes for them, such as putting up wires outside so they can carry stuff outside during shabbat, since the wire apparently means its not a different domain even though objectively speaking, it is and the wire is just a convenient loophole to an incredibly inconvenient law that was accepted due to the law being incredibly inconvenient. Unlike Reform, they don't just admit that shit laws are shit and disregard them. Instead, they just find a million ways to bypass them while still claiming to be following them.
>>18674006Implicit in your use of the term "loophole" is that they are actually following the laws. The law itself permits the construction of the eruv. There are jews who live in places that do not have an eruv and are subject to those additional restrictions on the sabbath.
>>18674023Only because the loopholes were deemed to be acceptable, which does not discount them from being blatantly loopholes. The actual laws the loopholes are made for and their intent are very clear, with the loopholes established contrary to those intents but kept out of pure convenience.
>>18673925>rather they were prosecuted for crimes such as vandalism, lynchings of pagan priesthoods, and overall being violent savages no different from BLMnice fanfiction>Christians already viewed Rome as the kingdom of Satan on earth and it’s gods as demons, so it’s not out of place for a Christian to want to burn it all downheadcanon
>>18674031Explain the laws and the intent then and how the loopholes violate them
>>18673918>Being able to maintain a wire around a place fundamentally changes your relationship to that placeSounds like Catholic nonsense
>>18674089Having a wire around a town or a neighborhood makes it fundamentally different than a separate neighborhood or a town or a whole country or a wilderness.
>>18674074The law we're talking about for one, which has physical specifications:"A Reshut HaYachid is defined as an area of at least 4 Tefachim by 4 Tefachim surrounded by walls of at least 10 Tefachim. This includes a pit which is 4x4 Tefachim with walls of 10 Tefachim.[4]A Reshut HaRabim is defined as a street which is 16 amot wide. Some say that if there's not 600,000 people passing through it daily it's not a Reshut HaRabim.[5]A Karmelit is defined as an area of 4 Tefachim by 4 Tefachim with walls which are less than 10 Tefachim in height. It also includes areas where the public doesn't walk and doesn't have proper fencing such as fields, or rivers which are 10 Tefachim deep.[6]A Makom Patur is a place which is less than 4 Tefachim by 4 Tefachim but is of at least 3 Tefachim in height. They are only a Makom Patur when placed in a Reshut HaRabim, but in a Karmelit they are considered like a Karmelit"The eruv allows a large area containing streets, houses, sidewalks, etc. to be treated as a single enclosed area for the purposes of carrying, despite the fact that the entire area does not physically meet the direct specifications of the law. That is a clear cut loophole, therefore, it is a loophole to the law.You can justify the need of the loophole and how the Orthodox see it as legally valid all you want but you cannot dispute that it is absolutely a loophole to the law made due to people finding the law to be too inconvenient and thus requiring a loophole.The Orthodox would be more intellectually and spiritually honest with themselves by adopting the Reform view on law i.e. that the law is revisable and not binding, rather than dancing around it as they do.
>>18674374>You can justify the need of the loophole and how the Orthodox see it as legally valid all you want but you cannot dispute that it is absolutely a loophole to the law made due to people finding the law to be too inconvenient and thus requiring a loophole.Legally valid means legally valid. You cannot simultaneously argue that they have found a legally valid solution and that they are disregarding the law.
>>18674374> A Reshut HaYachid is defined as an area of at least 4 Tefachim by 4 Tefachim surrounded by walls of at least 10 TefachimThe wires, in regards to Sabbath, are considered walls. That means an entire neighbourhood can be considered A Reshut HaYachid. (Besides the fact that most people do not rely on an Eruv that encompasses a very large street which would reasonably carry 600,000 people daily. Meaning the place the Eruv encompasses is not even a Reshut HaRabim and doesn’t even need the Eruv.Kek, the Eruv in most cases is actually a stringency, and you wouldn’t even need it to carry.)It seems the loophole you’re talking about would be to hat a wire is considered a wall.You must understand that this law, as well as every other, is derived directly from a verse by one of a very small set of rules (32).According to the simplest meaning, these rules is the entirety of the Oral Law that Moses received on Sinai.
>>18674866Learn to read. I said they are pursuing loopholes of the law and should adopt the Reform view of disregarding it if their laws are to be dance around. Making a loophole of a prior law later on legally valid, doesn't make it less of a loophole in regard to that prior law, it's still a loophole devised to change a law due to finding that law inconvenient. It also furthers the argument that the law is ultimately pointless, revisable, and subject to change.
>>18674979Again, you justify the loophole but do not contradict my argument that it absolutely is one. Yes, later on eruv was devised to be symbolically considered as walls as a way to change the prior law to be more convenient, with this method having been heavily debated by other rabbis at the time who argued that it is ultimately a bypass and even many who are for it today still firmly against city wide eruv for going far and beyond any meaningful definition.
>>18675326>>18675334Deuteronomy 17:8-11 permits rabbis to make judgments regarding matters such as these thoughbeit.
>>18675326>>18675334>>18675892I also want to point out that what we are ultimately talking about is whether mothers can push their children in strollers to shul or housekeys can be carried in your pocket instead of around your neck on the sabbath. This is the issue you're saying the jews should just through the entire law out over despite them finding a legitimate workaround.
>>18675897*throw
>>18672831>breaking Shabbat right now lolAh yes, the long Jewish history of fooling your complete moron of god, because who cares about pesky ideas like omniscience. One of the most amusingly persistent myths is that Jews are smart. You are fucking idiots and the least consistent and devoted people in the religious sphere.
>>18674261No it doesn't. You're just an inbred retard.
>>18675904It does. Someone has to inspect an eruv right before every shabbat and make necessary repairs to ensure that it is valid. That's not possible to do with the planet as a whole or an entire country or some overly expansive area. It means if you're carrying something where it is permissible you can expand that permissible range but there are still places where carrying something would be impermissible. There is still a fundamental separation between where something is permitted and where something isn't.
>>18675902It’s not about omniscience for them. Rather, it’s that God made a covenant, a contract, and so as long as the rules of the contract with God is satisfied, it doesn’t matter. Even if God would say “the cable doesn’t qualify as a wall” in a Christian or Islamic-style declaration from the sky, Rabbis would instead retort with something like “Your contract with us said this, we are still following the contract. If you can’t tell us where we are genuinely wrong or illegal with our interpretation and instead just cry about legal loopholes in your contract, then cry because you can’t change the contract once you gave it. Telling us what’s right and wrong now would change the contract retroactively and thus break your ancient vow with us, and as God you cannot break vows, so we will treat your words as an opinion”.And yes, the Talmud references the “Divine Voice” interacting with rabbinical debates, except the Rabbis simply treat God as another opinion and continue with their analysis and interpretation of the Law.
>>18675904>It does.Nope. This is low-IQ ritual that means something to you because you're insisting it does, but it's mindless and perpetuated by inbred fanatics.
>>18675897>This is the issue you're saying the jews should just through the entire law out over despite them finding a legitimate workaround.Partly, yes, but I'm primarily saying that the Reform/Reconstructionist approach is the most sensible i.e. Laws are not binding therefore they are revisable. The Orthodox have spent centuries realizing how impractical many of the laws truly are, which even the Talmud is full of debates on, but instead of the reasonable approach of seeing many laws as relating specifically to the periods of time and place that they were written in and thus impractical to be kept today, the Orthodox insist that they are all sacred, binding, and must be kept no matter what while still realizing how nonsensical it is to do so, thus pursuing loophole after loophole after loophole instead of either A. Sticking to the laws entirely as intended which should be done if they are indeed totally sacred and binding, or B. Acknowledging that the laws are in fact not binding and can very well be changed and even disregarded entirely.
>>18676111The laws are binding and not revisable that's why your argument is retarded. Finding a legally permissible workaround is not the same as saying God doesn't exist and you can do whatever you want aka the Reform and Reconstructionist perspective. Not sure why you can't comprehend that.
>>18672632>no./thread
>>18676099>ritual = bad>why>because...IT JUST IS OKNot an argument
>>18676120Because if the law is binding and sacred, you wouldn't and shouldn't need to find, let alone create (as most workarounds were), workarounds, you would follow it exactly as intended, which you do not, because doing so was and is impractical.
>>18676120Pretty sure God wants you to follow the rules, not try and trick Him. How stupid do you have to be to think you can pull a fast one an omniscient being? Jews are supposed to be smart but they clearly have not thought this through. >oh I put a wire around my city that means I can skirt this rule because ACKSHUALLY this whole metro area is now a private areaThe whole religion is like this. Wacky.
>>18676129The supposed "workaround" is exactly as God intended>>18676130God is not tricked. His law is perfect. Any "workaround" therefore was anticipated from the start and was permitted from the beginning.
>>18676138Stringing up a wire around your enclave doesn't turn it into your house and nobody is fooled by your obvious violation of the Law, especially God.
>>18676138Delusional cope. Either the law is important and should be followed to the letter, or at least the spirit. Or, it is not important and you can freely eat a bacon cheeseburger. Eating a bacon cheeseburger with magic gloves doesn't change the fact you are breaking the law. Just say the law isn't important to you. Or follow it. This trickery and half following the rules is not working.
>>18676141Sure it does. It meets the legal requirements of an enclosure and food is used to make it into a communal living space.>>18676143It is followed to the letter. That's the point. Eating a bacon cheeseburger would still be a violation of the law so that's a retarded example.
>>18676124>Not an argument>ritual is good because I want it toMy argument is you have no reasons for it, it's just a ritual that you insist means something. You have literally failed to make an argument. That's my argument, which is an argument. Keep trying you inbred moron.
>>18676159The ritual is good because it's part of the law given by the creator of the universe, anon.
>>18676163Not an argument.
>>18676150>We did it reddi- I mean NYC Jews! We have tricked g-d with a wire! At least the Nietzcheans are honest about their contempt for God. You are lukewarm, trying to weasel out of following your religion. I'm not sure if Jews even believe in God, or they would fear Him. Instead, they say they follow the rules with their mouths but their actions prove them to be in contempt of said law.
>>18676181If they didn't believe in God they wouldn't bother with the wire in the first place. The wire is literally proof of the belief. Something that would appear completely meaningless to a nonbeliever but absolutely essential to someone who fears God.>>18676172There can be no better argument than being compelled by the divine.
>>18676194>There can be no better argument than being compelled by the divine."I do it because I'm told to do it, this is the best argument"No, the best argument for something is a logical one you goofy dunce. Your argument is completely mindless, thanks for proving my point.
>>18672871The Hadith unlike any Judaic text can be verified to a believable extent because it actually has claims beyond simple conjecture.
>>18676194Seeing how much you can get away on a technicality with does not indicate fear to me, seems more like contempt.
>>18676196There is no greater mind than the ultimate mind which is that of God's.>>18676197I asked `Aisha about the clothes soiled with semen. She replied, "I used to wash it off the clothes of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and he would go for the prayer while water spots were still visible. Sahih al-Bukhari 230>>18676198You can "get away" with whatever is legally permissible, and not with whatever isn't.
>>18676197How? The Hadith is based entirely on hearsay and gives no arguments to support its existence beyond "I knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy who heard Muhammad say this, so it's completely true".
>>18676234Who decides what is permissible? God says one thing. Some rabbi says you can not really follow what God has commanded, you can do this thing which violates the spirit and letter of the law, twisting it in an attempt to fool the almighty. Like I said, lukewarm shit. Either follow the law or don't. I don't care which you choose, I just can't stand hypocrisy.
>>18676234>I asked `Aisha about the clothes soiled with semen. She replied, "I used to wash it off the clothes of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and he would go for the prayer while water spots were still visible. Sahih al-Bukhari 230So? Semen itself isn’t purely unhygienic are you mad that they didn’t have washing machines in 600 AD? That has no damage against the structure of Hadith science as we know it, would you rather people burn their clothes if they got semen stains on them?>>18676240>The Hadith is based entirely on hearsay and gives no arguments to support its existence beyond "I knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy who heard Muhammad say this, so it's completely true".No? That is an oversimplification of what it is. Every “so” in that chain is someone with documented historical biographies to verify their existence. It isn’t a simple game of telephone. Like how you can verify people before you existed through conjecture you are sure of we do the same with these narrators.Judaic text on the other hand literally has no support, you will even find Jews admitting that their religion is unfortunately pick and choose.
>>18672813>Both religions explicitly affirm Judaism as true in their own sacred texts.Gee I wonder why.It's almost as if that was the literary intent of the Semitic people who wrote & compiled then later reformed those texts. Almost as if identity-politics is baked in to the fabric of all 3 Abrahamic religions, but truly benefits just 1 exclusive identity more than all othersBut that would be antisemitic to suggest such a thing hah hah. Better not talk about it or else we'll offend one of the chosen!
Yes but only Kabbalah Sufism & Zoroastrianism are also incidentally correct
>>18675334>>18676129>>18676130>>18676198>>18676301Did you even read my post?I addressed every point you made.Every single law, “loophole” or not, is derived directly from a verse by one principle from a very small list.Scoring a point after the buzzer is not a loophole or a technicality.The rule is if the ball leaves your hand before the buzzer it counts; that’s how the system operates.
>>18676573That's how your rabbi interperets the law, not the law itself. It's more like traveling in basketball, you get two steps. Modern NBA is like the rabbinical interpretation of the rule where you get 5-6 steps and don't get called for it, because the NBA doesn't actually care about the rules and neither do your rabbis it seems.Once you have a technicality to avoid having to actually do any of your obligations as a Jew, what do you have left exactly?Just like when you ignore or create technicalities in basketball to evade the rules - at some point are you even really playing basketball? Are you practicing Judaism when you skirt the rules or are you just a hypocrite? But by all means keep inventing new ways to "trick" God. I think it's hilarious you think you can. The Eruv Wire is especially egregious, you really think God is going to accept this subterfuge? You are breaking the law that YOU claim to care about, thinking you have outsmarted an omniscient being. Hubris.
>>18676588>Once you have a technicality to avoid having to actually do any of your obligations as a Jew, what do you have left exactly?The eruv doesn't remove the obligation to follow even 1 commandment let alone the 612 others. You seem desperately trying to say that it is but all you've expressed is that even though they are following the law, you don't like how they follow it so they should stop believing in God because it doesn't comport with your particular autism.
>>18676427Kabbalah doesn't even make sense if uou don't grant the Torah as true in the first place.
>>18676404>but truly benefits just 1 exclusive identity more than all othersIt sure seems to have benefited the arabs, who were literal nobodies and after accepting the God of Israel became the most scientifically advanced medieval society. Or the Europeans whose acceptance of the God of Israel created the values that informed the greatest moral society in modern times.
>>18676382The historical veracity of Muhammad cumming his pants is not germane to the topic of this thread.
>>18676588You’re suffering from some real dissonance, buddy.These laws are part of the Torah, not up to interpretation. Some are used explicitly in the bible, like the a fortiori.
>>18676665European morality stems from greek philosophy, mostly neoplatonism, not from Christianity
>>18676800That's where the transing kids, drag queen story time, and gay surrogacy comes from. I'm talking about the actual moral core of conservative Europe/America.
>>18676778>>18676658They are not following the law, they are directly disobeying what is commanded because they think they can "trick" God. Take the "Eruv wire"— do you really think this slight of hand makes your shabbot obligations change?But hey, maybe you Eastern Europeans have really adapted the religion you converted to centuries ago. In the Old Testament the people were always disobeying. worshiping the golden calf, etc. Now you do it with a rabbi's blessing.Again, follow the law or don't. Don't claim to follow the law but be a pussy when it comes to a bunch of rules. There is nothing wrong with having a beer and eating a chili cheese hotdog. Of course, if your religion forbids alcohol like Mormonism and Islam, you can't drink the beer through a straw to make it technically allowed. If it forbids meat of cow like Hinduism, you are not supposed to eat beef chili. Pork is forbidden in Islam and Judaism. Additionally Jews can't mix meat and dairy so they are doubly prohibited from this delicious hotdog. Now, do I care if a Jew eats pork and cheese from the same plate? No. I care about hypocrisy. Claiming you are one thing while your actions betray your true self. That's repugnant. >oh we are so righteous. We follow the law. Except this part. Also this part. These parts don't matter. My rabbi gave me a trick to get around this part. Well ACKSHUALLY my entire borough is a "private area" thanks to a wire strung up so these restrictions don't count. EVEN THE "ULTRA ORTHODOX" use these type of deceptions against God, thinking they are fooling Him. You're only fooling yourself.
>>18677012>There is nothing wrong with having a beer and eating a chili cheese hotdog. Of course, if your religion forbids alcohol like Mormonism and Islam, you can't drink the beer through a straw to make it technically allowed. If it forbids meat of cow like Hinduism, you are not supposed to eat beef chili. Pork is forbidden in Islam and Judaism. Additionally Jews can't mix meat and dairy so they are doubly prohibited from this delicious hotdog.see >>18676150
>>18672804>means that muslims and unitarian christians and even members of other religions will all get to share in the world to comeIt is against the Torah to form new religions.
>>18677020Yes, focus on an aside and not the actual argument of the post. You're trying to get out of this on a technicality, like you THINK you can do with God.
>>18677031actually i wasn't even here for the entire argument and i'm noticing that you're repeating the same wrong aside, so you're probably missing something that was already said
>>18677029Presumably the teachers of these religions will all be damned but the average non-idol worshipping goy who acts righteously will share in the world to come.
>>18676661The Torah is trueBut it only applies to Jews
>>18676573I want you to do me a favor and Google the definition of the word "loophole", as you don't seem to understand what it means. And as I've said already regarding "that’s how the system operates.", it operates in that manner of allowing loopholes because rabbis decided to legalize loopholes to prior laws for convenience later on, something that was not even unanimous and is still debated, albeit by a smaller minority than those who choose to accept it. Loopholes remain loopholes even if later legalized and despite those who later legalized them allowing themselves to create them in the first place.
>>18676661It can easily be applied to a perennialist viewpoint.
>>18677110I was going to suggest the same thing.> : a means of escapeespecially : an ambiguity or omission in the text through which the intent of a statute, contract, or obligation may be evaded.Your timeline is upside-down.It goes like this.>Be God>Have a Torah that is ambiguous most of the time, incoherent at others, *Necessitating a counterpart.*>State explicitly that Rabbis (Elders) in each generation will judge ambiguities (based on the *necessary counterpart to the Torah you gave them*.THEN>Rabbis study every verse, from its context, content, particular spelling - common or uncommon, even the “crowns on top of the letters.>Derive laws based on the ALREADY written verse by ALREADY given counterpart.You do know the Eruv has existed written for over 2,000 years, right?Let me know if you want a simplified version of this system for the Eruv.Again, this is how God intended it to be, as stated in the verse, coupled with obvious ambiguity.That’s definitionally not a loophole.
>>18677131>Doesn't believe in the Torah>LARPs as a JewYou're an atheist bro, culturally you might come from a family that followed the Torah at some point but you deny the religion is coherent.
>>18677131>Have a Torah that is ambiguous most of the time, incoherent at othersThe Torah is very straight forward in the instances where law is given, painfully so. It is ambiguous outside of those circumstances and more so regarding the Nevi'im.>State explicitly that Rabbis (Elders) in each generation will judge ambiguities (based on the *necessary counterpart to the Torah you gave them*.It does not. Priests and rabbis are not the same thing. The priesthood is suspended until the temple is restored along with all laws related to the temple and priesthood, such as ritual sacrifices, and authority given to priests remains with the priesthood until its restoration, not passed over to rabbis.>Derive laws based on the ALREADY written verse by ALREADY given counterpart.I.E. creating loopholes (which they are by the definition of the word: an ambiguity or omission in the text through which the intent of a statute, contract, or obligation may be evaded) on passed laws by finding ambiguity and omissions in said past laws for greater convenience from the direct restriction of said laws. >this is how God intended it to beNothing in the Torah even remotely implies such, this is simply justification given by later rabbis to consider their alterations to be halakha, which they concluded for themselves, not God nor any prophets of God nor even priests.And this goes back to my prior and primary argument: >>18676111You support loopholes to laws because it allows for convenience in practicing of laws that are inconvenient, when if the law is truly binding and sacred, it should be practiced exactly as it is stated to be practiced by God without finding ambiguity within them to avoid doing so.
>>18672142No. Even if you look at it historically the Samaritans have a way better claim to actually follow the authentic original Israelite monotheistic religion.
>>18677198>The Torah is very straight forward in the instances where law is given, painfully so. It is ambiguous outside of those circumstances and more so regarding theNevi'im.Instead of dancing around the issue, give the straightforward chapter and verse of the law that eruv violates.>The priesthood is suspendedThe priesthood is not suspended and continues onto this day. That they don't have the same obligations regarding the temple because there is no temple did not eliminate the existence of the priesthood or all of their responsibilities.Also authority isn't given over to the priesthood exclusively, but the priesthood AND the judges as there will be in those days. This is inclusive of the current rabbinic authorities.>an ambiguity or omission in the text through which the intent of a statute, contract, or obligation may be evadedProve the intent of the particular law chapter and verse that the eruv is avoiding. We've been waiting all thread. By definition an ambiguity or omission means avoiding something that BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION is not there.>Nothing in the Torah even remotely implies such, this is simply justification given by later rabbis to consider their alterations to be halakha, which they concluded for themselves, not God nor any prophets of God nor even priests.Chapter and verse please>t should be practiced exactly as it is stated State the law. Chapter. Verse.
>>18677199Pretty sure ISIS genocided the last of those a few years ago
>>18677096I don't think any jew would disagree, orthodox or otherwise.
>>18677179Im an ultra-orthodox jew.It’s like you don’t even know how to read.The written Torah is obviously incomplete.>>18677198Not when you subject the verses to biblical exegeses.Priests and judges.I have no idea where you got this. Priesthood is very active currently, including priestly gifts.But the “loophole” IS the law.And again, extremely bad faith, you refuse to entertain the proposition.>God gave an incomplete Torah (“you shall slaughter as I have shown you” with no mention of it, one verse stating you cannot eat CHLV and another stating you can, and more examples.>God is not retarded >There’s a part two.
>>18677298First, go take your benzos. I can tell you're having a crashout. Now, I have already given the legal requirements long ago and have addressed the justification for seeking loopholes to these requirements: >>18674374>this day. That they don't have the same obligations regarding the temple because there is no temple did not eliminate the existence of the priesthood or all of their responsibilities.I am obviously referring to the institution of the priesthood and its sacrimental roles, which are suspended until the temple is rebuilt. This is unanimous among Judaism and your opinion that it is not is fringe among even the Orthodox. >Also authority isn't given over to the priesthood exclusively, but the priesthood AND the judges as there will be in those days. And is a keyword; and, not or. Furthermore, the modern rabbinic authority does not constitute the authority of the judges even disregarding priests and are only considered inclusive because the rabbinic authority of today decided to considered themselves as inclusive. There is no functioning priesthood, there is no unbroken semikha, there is no temple, there is no Lishkat HaGazit, and there is no functioning Sanhedrin.>We've been waiting all threadThen you are too dimwitted to read what was already written.>Chapter and verse pleaseYou are the one who is making the claim that this is approved. Show me the chapter and verse that proves directly that loopholes are what God specifically intended without adding in your own interpretations. And no, Deuteronomy 17 does not support your claim by any stretch of the imagination with Deuteronomy 4 directly contradicting your claim.>State the law.Read Jeremiah 17. You can argue that only applies to work loads but in taking that interpretation, you also void any meaning to eruv entirely and uphold it as needless, as anyone can carry anything anywhere on Shabbat, and you will also further my argument regarding the Reform position.
>>18677572The halachic validity of the eruv rests on the precise legal architecture of Shabbat domains, which dictates that an eruv does not circumvent biblical law, but rather restores an area to its original biblical status. According to the Torah, carrying is strictly prohibited only within a Reshut HaRabim (a true Public Domain), defined by the Talmud as an unroofed, heavily trafficked thoroughfare at least 16 cubits wide that is traversed by 600,000 people daily [Shabbat 14b, Eruvin 2a]. Because the vast majority of modern neighborhoods do not meet this massive 600,000-person density on any single open-air street, carrying in them is actually permitted by Torah law. Instead, these areas are classified as a Karmelit, a semi-public space where carrying is banned solely by a protective rabbinic decree (gezeirah) [Eruvin 2a, Eruvin 49a]. Because the restriction on a Karmelit is entirely rabbinic in origin, the Rabbis retained the complete legislative authority to design a structural mechanism to lift it. By physically delineating a perimeter using continuous gateways (tzurat hapetach) made of posts and overhead wires, and legally pooling ownership of the enclosed space through shared food (eruv chatzerot), the community literally transforms the collective area into a single, shared private domain [Eruvin 2a, Eruvin 49a]. Rather than exploiting a loophole, utilizing an eruv fulfills the law exactly as designed.
>>18677464>ultra-orthodox JewSorry for your loss in spawn rng. You really think you're not wasting time here on the non-kosher web? >>18677663>Lots of words means we can trick god
>>18678338It's not tricking God as it's not even a biblical restriction. It's a rabbinical restriction to avoid accidentally appearing to violate a biblical restriction.
>>18672632fpbp
>>18672772>Cool story, rabbi.
>>18678479Christianity and Islam both affirm Judaism as true as the central tenets of their religions.
>>18678481>Christianity and Islam both affirm Judaism as true as the central tenets of their religions.>continues to practice blood sacrifice forbidden by both
>>18678486What do you mean blood sacrifice? As in human sacrifice? That is explicitly forbidden in the Torah and ironically only Christians view sacrificing a human as a valid atonement for one's own sins. Such a thing is absolutely detestable in the Torah. Or are you talking about Kapparot or something, which is just the kosher slaughter of a chicken that is then donated to the poor as charity?
>>18678499>What do you mean blood sacrifice? This.Jews still abuse animals thinking it will absolve their sins.
>>18679859It's not animal abuse. They carefully and gently circle a chicken around their head, give it a kosher slaughter (painless instantaneous death) and donate the meat to the poor. It does not absolve sins.
>>18679875Ok lemme swing you from your ankles around my head and slaughter you, you won't feel a thing I swear. >Animal sacrifice>In 2026Barbaric
>>18679878It's a ritual slaughter of meat for charity. You do understand if you bought 100 hamburgers and gave it to the poor you would have to consider that animal abuse then.
>>18679892Yeah but I'm not killing cows for religious purposes. I'm not swinging pigs around my head thinking it makes me holy.
>>18680011>I'm not swinging pigs around my head thinking it makes me holy.I hope not, that wouldn't be kosher.
