I'm a complete noob in archaeogenetics. I just play with G25 sometimes and follow some debates on Eurogenes and GenArchivist. The case of the Mycenaeans has always bothered me. We have a few samples and most show 0-20% steppe at most. It's often said to be "average" i.e Mycenaeans had very diluted steppe ancestry. But is that really the average of the Mycenaean population? Aren't we dealing with sampling bias here? is there an ideal sample size to define an "average"? Lazaridis seems very committed to reminding us that steppe migrants should be imagined as a population element that was socially and genetically integrated into the Aegean, not as conquerors who replaced or dominated the local genetics idk I'm neither a Nordicist nor a Mediterranean supremacist, I just want to understand.
>>18683767>Lazaridis seems very committed to reminding us that steppe migrants should be imagined as a population element that was socially and genetically integrated into the Aegean, not as conquerors who replaced or dominated the local geneticsOkay Maybe it wasn't all driven by pure violence, but I think that explanation is even more fanciful. The Peloponnese in the Neolithic and Early Helladic was quite advanced — copper trade across the Aegean, large administrative buildings like the "corridor houses," including the famous House of the Tiles at Lerna, and early versions of the megaron etc etc These were structured societies with many settlements. So why would they just allow themselves to be assimilated by migrants who were arguably less advanced? Are we supposed to believe they simply let their languages and religions be replaced by poor pastoralists?So far, the elite dominance theory has shown flaws, but then what's the explanation? All the explanations so far sound fanciful.
>>18683786What if these Indo-Europeans were mercenaries who gained social prestige?
>>18683789Can you point to a moment in history where mercenaries, due to their "prestige," somehow managed to impose their language and belief systems on the host culture? I still find that unlikely. Lazaridis and company are only using the diluted steppe as evidence of peaceful integration
>>18683792I don't know, maybe the native peoples of the Peloponnese were going through some kind of crisis due to droughts, diseases, famines, or simply the collapse of their settlements, and just like with the Vedic people, they simply took control of the power vacuum? And since they were few in number, they married these women and quickly diluted their ancestral lineage?
>>18683767We have about 30 Mycenaean samples, right? I think that's a good number.
>>18683797It Could make sense. Yeah
>>18683767>LazaridisLOL
>>18683786The ancients quite literally said this. What are you talking about? Mythologies were often based on founder races invading new regions. Why did the concept of the “Pelasgian” exist in Greece?
>>18683767Meds always had ''very diluted steppe ancestry'', the ancient Roman samples are also low steppe so not sure why ''it bothers you''
>>18683767The first Mycenaean elites are buried in Grave Circle B. The founders. The men are very robust, with signs of healed & unhealed traumatic injuries. Some died in battle. We still don’t have their DNA for reasons unknown
>>18683825>not sure why ''it bothers you''Maybe it's because you're a retard with low reading comprehension? Try reading what I said again, but this time calmly. I'm not talking about the quantities of steppe itself, but the implications. The anons above understood what I meant.
>>18683825>Meds always had ''very diluted steppe ancestryMedicines aren't people, but if you're referring to Mediterranean peoples, you're wrong. The early Greeks had more than 35% steppe, reaching up to 40%, and there are some Bell Beakers in northern Italy with 45% steppe.>>18683828Next year we will have the genetic results of these tombs
The Dorians had a lot of steppe. I don't think all Mycenaeans were that low in steppe.
>>18683800Not OP, but I think there are some contexts where it is more appropriate to have a small sample size than others. If you go out into a historically low population area, you should be grateful to get whatever samples you can find. I think it's a miracle that we have as many Yamnaya samples as we do considering these people lived out on the steppe, effectively the middle of nowhere. But then again, their burials must stick out like a sore thumb. They made the job easy for us.Greece on the other hand should have been densely populated since the Neolithic, and in Mycenaean times there had to have been big cities. I feel like we should be able to get large sample sizes "for free". Just stumble upon one good cemetery and our sample sizes could double.
>>18683825>>18683845Bronze Age sample from Theopetra Greece - 2,335–2,140 BC. It's not what I would call a "low steppe"
>>18683845The Mycenaeans are the early Greeks retard, not muh Logka from a thousand years before, and they have the lowest amount of IE admixture in Europe after the Minoans who had noneBell beakers were 1200 years before the founding of Rome also you fucking retard. The actual Roman samples are low steppe as the image shows: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/HQlKP5UXEAANCH5?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
>>18683847"Lot of steppe" = cluster closest with UmbriansAre you dumb or what?
>>18683853So 400-600 years before the Mycenaeans lol.Those were not part of Greek civilization, Greek civilization starts with the Minoans and Mycenaeans
>>18683767You are a nordicist because you already intrinsically assume that steppe is "nordic" which is a bullshit nordicist framing. Steppe people had predominantly dark features and the light features you see in modern northern Europeans is the result of successive selection
>>18683857NTA, why is it that whenever we're having a discussion, people like you need to come here and disrupt things?>The Mycenaeans are the early Greeks retard not muh Logka from a thousand years beforethe Mycenaeans were not "the first Greeks." The first genetically Greek populations, who logically spoke a proto-Greek dialect, would be the peoples similar to Logkas. Let me explain. Unfortunately, Greece is just very poorly sampled. We need samples from 4-5 different spots in Greece every 500 years at least from 2500 BC until now, to have a precise idea of what happened. Regarding the original Greek (that is, directly from the first inhabitants of the steppes who gave rise to the Mycenaeans), the Yamnaya samples from Moldavia (R1b Z2109 from Cahul and J2b L283 from Constantinople) share interesting IBD with Logkas. From an archaeological point of view, Logkas is considered connected to the Armenochori. Armenochori was probably the starting point for these individuals to reach Cetina Dalmatia in Croatia, Cetina Albania at the Shkrel Tomb, and even the Peloponnese in Greece. And if that's still not enough for you to keep barking like a desperate dog in every posy when someone corrects you about Logkas being important for the development of Greek, read this 10 times if necessary. >None of these source groups replaced the Yamnaya proportion, but newly sequenced Early Bronze Age Moldovans (Late Yamnaya) within this cluster replaced the Yamnaya proportion in the Late Bronze Age individuals (Fig. S6.21; Supplementary Table S5). This could suggest that the Moldovans are a more proximal source for the later individuals in GreeceThe early Greeks probably had even more steppe
>>18683862Yes? You ordinary cuck? Compared to 15% of Steppe, that's a lot. Or are you so retarded that you don't know how to analyze from a quantitative perspective?
>>18683873>You are a nordicist>Nobody mentioned skin color, hair color, or eye color. I'm not reading this.>>18683903Thanks for the explanation. That's interesting. It's a shame that trolls came from Brazil to troll.
>>18683865He is correct, though. You refuse to believe that there were Greek stages before Mycenaean civilization for some obscure agenda. Such samples are good representatives of the proto-Greeks, and the proto-Greeks had elevated steppes. Mycenaeans are not the first Greeks>>18683903
It's basically the same in Iron Age, so yeah, seems mostly correct.
>>18683797>>18683804Pestilence could be another explanation for the decline. Climate weakened them with poor harvests and pestilence weakened them further. Moreover pastoralists spread everywhere, and steppe Europeans were no different. They colonized remote mountain and river valleys and occupied the hinterland before moving into the decaying cities
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.12.02.626332v1.full>the very rare subhaplogroup R-PF7558 (R1b1a1b2) has been found so far in Bronze Age Greece. This is a sister lineage of dominant R-L51 and the R-Z2103 found in Yamnaya, and is with all likelihood also connected with the Bronze Age spread of steppe ancestry. Among the newly generated individuals, however, we report here the occurrence of four individuals from three different sites in Bronze Age Greece carrying the R-Z2103 lineage. All four of them can be placed in the R-Z2110 (R1b1a1b1b3a1, Z2103 > M12149 > Z2106 > Z2108 > Z2110) branch; similar to previously published Yamnaya individuals, who belong to R-Z2108. Additionally, one Early Bronze Age individual (CGG_2_103620) from Moldova reported in this study whose autosomes can be modelled totally with Yamnaya source also carries the same subhaplogroup (R-Z2108, R1b1a1b1b3a). We date the R-Z2108 lineage to coalesce at 5.70 (95% confidence interval, 5.03–6.49) kya, which is consistent with a dispersion during the Bronze Age.>Haplogroup J-L283 (J2b2a1) is found among Mycenaeans but not Minoans, and its presence in both Bronze Age Caucasus and a 4.5 kya individual from Moldova, the latter of which can be modelled as 100% from an Yamnaya source, may point to a spread concurrent with the dispersal of steppe ancestry. We date the lineage to be 5.81 (95% confidence interval, 5.13–6.59) kya, which may also support this hypothesisI hate to copy and paste, but for some users with specific agendas, such as believing that the Mycenaeans sprang directly from the earth or that they had divine origins, this is the ultimate way to make them regress in their preconceived ideas. Mycenaean isn't even the oldest form of the Greek language.
>>18683937Very leftist. No.
>>18683865>Those were not part of Greek civilizationVery strange opinion. I don't know what causes this sort of ignorance. There were very clearly Greeks who preceded the Mycenaeans. We call them "Proto-Greeks". They are the reason the Greek language and culture exists. Mycenaeans come later, but everyone is more excited about them for reasons that are easy to understand: Mycenaeans are the first on the historical record and their culture is archaeologically significant and well understood. But to explain how Greeks became Greek and how Indo-European religion became so prominent, you have to go further back, and while the Proto-Greeks may not be known for much of note, it is this exactly this process of the genesis of the Greeks and the cultural turnover of the previous Minoan civilization that is interesting. What went down is still shrouded in mystery.
Therefore, we can proceed with the discussion, since the claim that the Mycenaeans were the "first Greeks" has already been refuted.For those having difficulty interpreting, the article is saying that the proportion of this steppe ancestry was higher *before* 3,800 BP (aka~1,850 BC). When the Mycenaeans appeared centuries later, this genetic signature was already present, having mixed with local populations to varying degrees, similar to Logkas, for example, and stabilized at lower levels over time. Therefore, the Mycenaeans are the end result of a mixture, not the pioneers. Some geniuses misunderstood by science are probably basing their opinions solely on the fact that the oldest written record of the Greek language is the Linear B script of the Mycenaeans, but we know, as the article itself makes clear, that the arrival of potentially Greek-speaking groups far predates the emergence of this script.
>>18683767It's obvious why the steppe was so low. Look at the related photo. This is an Indo-European Yamnaya woman. These are the beauties promised by your father. Then you hear about a place where *Seh2ul reigns year-round and the extreme freezing cold of your homeland would no longer be a problem. You even hear about vast areas teeming with large, healthy animals to steal. Sounds tempting, right? So you set off with a group of your friends as wandering warriors and explorers. 1/2
Upon arriving there, you are confronted with such beauty. Feminine, delicate, with fragile and slender bodies and, above all, without any trace of masculinity. You are mesmerized by feminine beauty and the sweetness and gentleness that a woman can convey. Quickly, you marry them. Over several generations, you assimilate. It's quite simple. You know how our brains work.
>>18683953Not saying epic battles didn't happen. But they weren't fighting a bronze age machinery at peak strength
>>18684013>>18684002˶ᵔ ᵕ ᵔ˶ that's so cute! I'm going to write a love fanfic about how an Indo-European Yamnaya man in Greece fell in love with a farm girl, but her parents didn't allow it, so they ran away and got married. Long story 3: Awwwthank you, anon, you gave me an idea.
>>18684013Literally how Slavs took over Bulgaria from the Turkic overlords
>>18684026>But they weren't fighting a bronze age machinery at peak strengthCould it be? Most of them were Chud and had internal problems and needed to impress the tribe.
>>18684033>most of them*all of themThe Yamnaya-like tribes spread via Männerbund which were brotherhoods of young men sworn to defend each other to death and sent by the tribe to raid/colonize
>>18684013>>18684002Lol >Hey idiot. Why don't you go back to those plains and your wagon and leave my daughter alone? You're not welcome here. GET OUT.>But Dad! I love him! We love each other and he'll fit in. Why won't you let me be with the man of my life? I don't like our neighbor. He only talks about moon cycles and grains every day!>Enough. I said no. You're not marrying strangers.
Since we are discussing the possible dynamics of Indo-European pioneers in Greece, it's worth mentioning the _koryos. According to several authors, like Sergent (2003) and more recently Iversen (2025), the *koryos institution is widely seen as one of the driving forces behind Indo-European migrations and the spread of Indo-European languages. raids that generally led to new settlements in foreign lands, paving the way for large-scale migrations.It turns out the Greeks did have this institution, or at least a remnant of the *koryos preserved in their language. So I don't think it's impossible that proto-Greeks invaded certain regions of the Peloponnese.
>>18684028Are you a girl?
>>18684013>>18684002So, the steppe in Greece is low because the men were grain burners? Cringe
>>18684061>The Yamnaya foid crawled out of her grave to seethe about getting replaced.
