>>18685083
Because that would, to the surprise of many atheists, actually limit Pharaoh's free choice.

>>18685088
But He hardened his heart, is that not limiting his free choice?

>>18685088
Hardening it wouldn't because...?

>>18685083
>Gid

It's a religious text that you don't even believe in, you brainlet. Ask the priest in your parish or something.

>>18685094
You are correct, sir.

>>18685095
Because a hardened heart is less responsive to outside pressure, in this case Moses' pleading. Pharaoh made a choice and his heart being hardened meant his decision wasn't suceptible to external influences. His freely made choice was conserved.

If his heart were softened, he would be MORE suceptible to external pressures changing his choice. And his freely made choice would've been overturned by external pressure and coersion.

>>18685106
Why isn't God hardening everyone's heart if that's what's necessary for free will?

"God hardened his heart" means more like "God made him big and tall, therefore he is strong". God ultimately made all humans, but disparity has always been a rule. Some are soft hearted, some are hard hearted. God made all, but God made that pharaoh hard hearted. Meaning he was a man with a stone heart, not a softie. Doesn't mean God intervened in any way or took away his free will, just like if someone big and strong beats you, it doesn't mean he doesn't have a free will because he is big and strong, therefore he has to beat someone up.

>>18685116
>for free will
For free *choice.
>necessary
I don't know that it's necessary. I just know that a softened heart limits free choice. And seeing some of our choices, thank God.

>>18685119
Hm ok

>>18685106
>He made a choice and God forced him to maintain that choice rather than allowing him to change his mind
A better question though is why you think God cares about respecting free choice
>>18685117
This is not what it means lol

>>18685117
This is not a fair reading of the text. The 10 times god hardens pharaoh's heart is clearly god causing him to reconsider after he was going to choose clemency and accommodation. It really does read as god puppeting him to ensure he reaches a predetermined outcome.

>>18685125
>forced him to maintain
He was? Where's that in the text lol
Pharaoh could have changed his mind at any point. He was just immune to pressure and had to choose it on his own.

Oh gee, I wonder if there are answers in THE BIBLE ITSELF TO THIS VERY QUESTION
>Exodus 9:12-16 But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had spoken to Moses. Then the Lord said to Moses, “Rise up early in the morning and present yourself before Pharaoh and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, “Let my people go, that they may serve me. For this time I will send all my plagues on you yourself, and on your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is none like me in all the earth. For by now I could have put out my hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, and you would have been cut off from the earth. But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.
>Exodus 10:1-2 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your grandson how I have dealt harshly with the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them, that you may know that I am the Lord.”
>Exodus 11:9-10 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Pharaoh will not listen to you, that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.” Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh, and the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the people of Israel go out of his land.
>Exodus 14:1-4 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the people of Israel to turn back and encamp in front of Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, in front of Baal-zephon; you shall encamp facing it, by the sea. For Pharaoh will say of the people of Israel, ‘They are wandering in the land; the wilderness has shut them in.’ And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord.” And they did so.

>>18685129
That's what you said dude. Have you read Exodus? God hardens his heart repeatedly.
>>18685126
>It really does read as god puppeting him to ensure he reaches a predetermined outcome.
This is literally what the text says, I have no idea why Christians pretend it was anything else. >>18685138

>>18685143
>Have you read Exodus?
Who is that?

>puppeting
>literally what the text says
>>>> *checks the text*
>>>> *doesn't even remotely say this lol*

>>18685138
>Exodus 14:15-18 The Lord said to Moses, “Why do you cry to me? Tell the people of Israel to go forward. Lift up your staff, and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, that the people of Israel may go through the sea on dry ground. And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gotten glory over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen.”
>Romans 9:14-23 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

>>I'm about to make an example out of this dude
>wait that's literally puppeteering tho

>>18685150
>when god says he is doing something he isn't actually doing it

>>18685166
You pasted two walls of text and he nowhere said he's puppeting. Why are you keeping the best wall for yourself, show me!

>>18685168
Is English your first language? I'm genuinely asking. I can walk you through what is happening in Exodus if you would like.

>>18685190
Who's Exodus bro?

No need to walk me through it, just show me where it says it's puppeteering anyone. Because all you pasted is that God will make an example of Pharaoh and that Pharaoh will not yield to Moses' pressure. That is free choice.

>>18685083
Because he hated him. He was proud and arrogant and evil and he enslaved his people and abused them.

If you who cannot fully know someone can hate him then how much more justified is God for hating someone when he can see their hearts and minds and know their deepest secrets.

>>18685203
>Who's Exodus bro?
I genuinely don't understand the bit here.
>No need to walk me through it, just show me where it says it's puppeteering anyone. Because all you pasted is that God will make an example of Pharaoh and that Pharaoh will not yield to Moses' pressure. That is free choice.
I offered because it really seems like you are having trouble parsing the text. How is he making an example of him, do you think?

>>18685106
what kind of pilpul is this? you should just accept that free will does not exist. multiple instances in the bible of people being forced to do something by God

>>18685233
>How is he making an example of him, do you think?
By letting Pharaoh resist to his heart's desire and to his earthly wealth's budget and then publicly rendering it all null. That Pharaoh isn't swayed by external pressure but maintains his own free decisions is integral.

>>18685253
I was discussing free choice. Free will is something else. It might seem like pilpul to you, but ironically it only becomes pilpul when you secular people take these concepts, crossbreed and bastardize them and then publish books about how choice would work if you time-traveled and re-chose across timelines. Ew.

>>18685264
So when God says "I will harden his heart", why are you interpreting that as God "letting" Pharaoh do something?

>>18685083
because God wanted jews to suffer for their sin of existing

>>18685273
Because God is helping Pharaoh maintain his free choice by making him more resistant to outside pressure. It is completely free.

>>18685291
So ignoring this somewhat bizarre understanding of free choice because I think we'll just end up going in a circle again, why is God doing that?

>>18685310
Didn't I answer that in >>18685203 and then elaborate on it in >>18685264?

>>18685319
I don't think so. Why is God "helping Pharaoh maintain his free choice"? If you think those posts address this question I'll ask you to rephrase.

>>18685336
Alright, lemme get this thang oiled down:
God wants to make it clear that wealth, demonic magic and political power are no match for him. Pharaoh represents all of these because his power is based on all of these. Pharaoh is also a convenient example in that he, out of his own will, refuses to let Hebrews go on the command of their God. So God's power is about to be manifested on a deserving ruler who opposed God out of arrogance. And to make sure the decision is by Pharaoh alone and stems from his own heart, God hardens the heart so external pressures (like Moses' pleas) aren't factored in.

I cannot explain the plot any simpler so if you don't get to make your point based on this synopsis, you likely won't make it ever.

>>18685106
Regardless of motivation, changing your mind on something is still an exercise of free will. It’s not as if “external pressures hijacked your body to make you do those things, external pressures caused you to reconsider your actions for whatever reason

>>18685264
what is the difference between free choice and free will?

>>18685361
>God wants to make it clear that wealth, demonic magic and political power are no match for him.
To whom?
>Pharaoh is also a convenient example in that he, out of his own will, refuses to let Hebrews go on the command of their God.
So I have two issues with this. One is the word "convenient" sort of implies God just sort of got lucky in that Pharaoh just happened to both represent the things you identified, and that he would choose to not let the Israelites go. If he would have let them go, would that have messed up God's plan? The second issue is the "out of his own will" bit. 4:21, 7:3, and 7:13 all make it seem like the reason Pharaoh won't let them go is because God hardened his heart. You have made a distinction between "will" and "choice", but if God hardening his heart causes him to act differently than he would have otherwise, I don't see how it isn't God overriding his will.
>And to make sure the decision is by Pharaoh alone and stems from his own heart, God hardens the heart so external pressures (like Moses' pleas) aren't factored in.
I asked this before, why would God care about this? The same question from before, if Pharaoh made the decision on his own to let the Israelites go, would that have messed up God's plan? And to be clear, one of the external pressures is the plagues. If you believe the plagues would have convinced Pharaoh to let the Israelites go, but God hardening his heart made his decision making not be affected by them, I again don't see how this isn't overriding his will, or why you would object to the puppeting comparison from earlier other than not liking the language.

>>18685369
He did consider them and decided not to let the people go. Being emotionally swayed is by definition not an exercise of free choice.

>>18685407
In the original Christian context, free will is when your soul can express itself freely, automatically choosing the good because that is how it's designed. Adam had this and had to be tricked into choosing non-good. Jesus had this.
Sin corrupted this automatic setting in humans and confused the soul, so now a man might not automatically choose the good, but has to deliberate and reason towards what choice is better and what choice is worse. That deliberation is called 'free choice', it's a fallen faculty that kinda-sorta manages to substitute free will in many cases. It's called 'free' because there is always a point in your deliberation when you can turn to God, so despite being corrupt by sin, you're never fully at its mercy when making a choice. Or at least that's as far as I remember it from back when I read St Maximus. I was surprised that it doesn't at all line up with how contemporary free will debates are being had and I was delighted that, unlike libertarian free will, these Christian concepts are actually useful.

>>18685425
>To whom?
To humanity.
>"convenient"... implies ... lucky
Thanks for the opportunity to clarify. I did not mean convenience as in luck. I meant it as in being appropriate.
>Pharaoh won't let them go is because God hardened his heart
God hardened Pharaoh's heart to protect the decision Pharaoh made out of his own heart. God is precisely protecting his choice from being overriden by emotional pressure.
>why would God care about this?
God obviously cares about being known by humanity. This is one of the things worth knowing about him.
>would that have messed up God's plan?
That entirely depends on the definition of "messed up" and "God's plan". I don't think I can answer that.
>one of the external prassures is the plagues
Correct. And the same logic applies.

>>18685088
This makes a lot of sense. Thank you for this. This fits well into my understanding.