How do secular historians, atheists, etc. explain that Jesus's disciples thought he had been resurrected and that he was divine, when it would've been more likely for them to just say it was a ghost if all they saw were hallucinations?I'm not a Christian, mind you, I don't think he actually resurrected, but the topic is certainly puzzling to me.
>>18688144What disciples? By Paul's account they're all out of the picture by the time he shows up to meet them other than Peter and James (who isn't even a "disciple" just his brother), all we have to go on for everyone else are unveirfiable legends and mythical accounts that even churches would say are apocrypha.The fact the narrative accounts in the gospels do this whole song and dance of "no they all saw him and it might have seemed like the doubted and didn't believe but no look they totally did it was just initial hesitation trust me" shows that there wasn't agreement.
>>18688149i don't know if its the Holy Spirit in me, but ever since becoming Catholic a year ago and reading Christian mysticism, i could hardly give a fuck what atheists arguments and stances are.
>>18688153You need humility. I'll pray for you.
>>18688144How do secular historians, atheists, etc. explain that Romans thought Julius Caesar had been resurrected and that he was divine, when it would've been more likely for them to just say it was a ghost if all they saw were hallucinations?
>>18688144>How do secular historians, atheists, etc. explain that Jesus's disciples thought he had been resurrected and that he was divine, when it would've been more likely for them to just say it was a ghost if all they saw were hallucinations?I don't really have a horse in this race, but if asked my secular hypothesis has always been Jesus simply didn't die on the cross. He was crucified for like 6 hours (I believe they took him down early to observe sabbath?), they took him down, put him in the cave, he got *better, and then he came out of the cave alive. *Maybe he was treated in secrecy, maybe he had planned help ahead of time in his cave, maybe his wounds weren't that deep, maybe he "rebounded" as people sometimes do when they're no longer suffocated. People weren't terrible proficient at declaring people dead in the past at any rate.
>>18688155type the prayer out
>>18688159May God have mercy on this annoying retard. Amen
>>18688163Good, but add Christ in there too, anon.
>>18688144Yeah so it's all made up is the answer to that. You can dig into the origins of Christianity and there might have been some rabbi that had a small following in roman judea, or it might be a set of stories that have their origins in the mythical and mystical ancient levantine tradions that simply caught on and was eventually codified by the emperors.
>>18688144This isn't even important or documented enough to require an explanation. It belongs in the trashbin along with every other religious claim.
>>18688144Jesus and his disciples were Jewish apocalypticists, who absolutely believed in the resurrection. We can gather from many of the gospel texts that Jesus was promising an imminent coming of God's kingdom to his disciples, where they would be ruling alongside God. When Jesus was suddenly executed, the disciples were left bereaved and depressed over the fact Jesus's promises weren't fulfilled. Peter and James, and perhaps some other disciples, had individual visions, like grief hallucinations or dreams, which made them feel like Jesus was alive. Jewish apocalypticists believed in an imminent and upcoming resurrection, and to them, Jesus showing up to them was more likely to be seen as a sign of resurrection rather than as a ghost. It makes complete sense for Jewish Apocalypticists, especially the followers of a popular preacher, to interpret such visions as the beginning of resurrection rather than some simple ghost.As for why they came to see him as divine is not that big of a puzzle either, since Judaism at the time was full of divine figures, angels, and the like. I can't recall the source, but there was a rather good study, which proved that it wasn't unusual for popular leaders to become exalted after their deaths. I think Moses (iirc), for example, was seen as having become exalted or somewhat divine after his death. To the disciples and other apocalypticists, Jesus was thus the "first fruits" of the resurrection, already making him special and clearly somewhat divine.>>18688149Also a good point, since we have little evidence of all the disciples even staying within the movement after Jesus's death. We only know for certain that Peter, John, and James the Brother of Jesus (who really wasn't a doubter) stayed. The others are a question mark.
>>18688175Furthermore, a good quote by Dale Allison, who is a Christian and believes in the resurrection:> We can offer an answer once we take into account that Jesus’ followers must have shared his eschatological expectations. As Lk. 19:11 remembers: “they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately.” This entails that, prior to Easter, they expected the eschatological resurrec- tion to take place soon.71 In such an eschatological context, experiences of a Jesus who appeared solid and lifelike would not have led anyone to declare, “I’ve just seen a ghost!” Such experiences might rather have led them to believe that he had risen from the dead and that the resurrection of the last day had begun. This is why I am unpersuaded by the refrain of the apologists, that an apparition of Jesus would not have encouraged the disciples to believe in his resurrection because they knew well enough the difference between a ghost and a resurrected man. The argument not only ignores the phenomenology of a substantial number of visionary experiences but also overlooks the disciples’ eschatological expectations.
>>18688175>>18688177To finish off, what more than likely explains the birth of Christianity is not even the resurrection of Jesus. Rather, the best explanation for it are the usual mental gymnastics of an apocalyptic cult. Their leader is dead, the promises he made are unfulfilled - what is to be done now? In situations like this, the theology often rewrites itself and prophecies become more amendable. When Paul joined years later, the movement had more than likely already transformed enough to not resemble Jesus's own movement that much. Paul took that even further, and the rest is history.
>>18688175>>18688177>>18688186Jesus loves you
>>18688193Then he'll probably understand why I can't believe in his resurrection.
Well, if you do a literary interpretation of the gospels then youd see the resurrection is jesus being there in spirit for you become the body that says his words and does his actions. That is not even doctrine, thats just what you'd get from doing a literary reading of the gospels... but thatd require you not being illiterate animals.
>>18688153so then why did you even click on this thread retard. enjoy worshipping your god of war and a vague spirit of some sorts and a brown jew all at the same time you retarded christcuck. but stop giving everyone else braincancer
>>18688153>get proven wrong IMMEDIATELY>u-uh i actually don't careamazing
>>18688153I agree. For me, it's because they never offer any solutions. All they do is tear other people.down.
>>18688345they just want to drag you down to their misery
>>18688144Isn't that the guy from Aum Shinrikyo?
