How do you think your study of history has influenced your political beliefs? It certainly provides a lot of fuel for arguments that support free speech without censoring hate speech, I mean most people side with Socrates in his right to interrogate Athens, right? Perhaps unbiased, logical discussions of subjects without feeling the need to accommodate for feelings now only belongs to the right, who mainly house the red pilled. Now, you may say that the right does this too, and yes they do, or Maga does at least. But I'm not arguing that the right is more truthful to human nature in its entirety, but the fact that the left is now so Marxist that it allows for no diverse perspectives on human nature, is without a doubt, as history proves, an extremely dangerous ideology that is founded on no evidence, just contrary evidence that points at suffering and says we can end it with this one simple trick. It's anti human nature, and now the whole political left is aligned with it. If you endured my schizo rambling, and understood it, congrats
>>18691578It's impossible to read history and not come away thinking the history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggle and how imperative it is to abolish elites since they have always been responsible for the demise of their countries.
>>18691612Abolishing the current elites only makes way for new elites which will inevitably arise from the leaders of the working class, and the cycle repeats ad nauseam
>>18691614>source: I made it up
>>18691612They've always been responsible? What about things beyond their country, like protecting from existential threats or Waring nations? Do you think history teaches us to rise up against the elites then, or to listen to them? A civil war would be a little too extreme in depletion of resources, perhaps a dialogue would be better, like Socrates had? Maintaining open and non biased dialogue might be essential then, right? Perhaps sometimes within a healthy society the elites could help the people, like a sort of good king. I dunno, maybe that's not resolute and utopian enough to be a solution
>>18691612>class strugglepeople struggle more with foreigners and pirates than they do with the local chieftain who you owe fealty to.
>>18691663...and why do people struggle with foreigners and pirates?
>>18691700That's like asking why do wolves hunt deer, and why do mosquitos suck blood
>>18691710human beings aren't wolves or mosquitoes. engage with the question without comparisons or platitudes.
>>18691578>How do you think your study of history has influenced your political beliefs? Every form of government, be it a monarchy, democracy or oligarchy, serves only to enrich those who hold high offices and positions therein. >>18691651>Maintaining open and non biased dialogue might be essential then, right? Humans are animals and violence always trumps talk. Everybody knows this but few want to admit it.
>>18691578>It certainly provides a lot of fuel for arguments that support free speech It does.>without censoring hate speechIn general? No, there is no evidence for this. There is only evidence that certain limits of speech were poorly set.>that the left is now so Marxist that it allows for no diverse perspectivesAs opposed to the ultra diverse rightoid opinions on anything from gender to Russian invasion. Please...The average alt-right fag was equally marxist to an average blue haired liberal, just in a different direction.
>>18691801They are not marxistAlthough many are still revolutionary (various flavors of neopagan romantic nationalism, classical liberalism and bonapartism in a blender.....)
>>18691810I would argue they were. Marxism in its general outlines is about splitting the society into the oppressors and oppressed, the elites and the romantically striving savages etc. The only difference was whether elites are trying to replace white people or police black people, besides that the dialectical method was compeltely identical.
>>18691617Show me one actual state without an eliteNot some sort of hippie commune or paleolithic tribe that would be completely defenseless against the outside world
Reading history made me realize that the ideas of the Enlightenment, on which all modern states morally rest, are completely retarded.>>18691612Only if you are a very poor reader of history.
>>18691812I will say the right still has more diverse opinions and is more or less legal to criticize in most countries that are not islamic theocraciesEven the Russian invasion you brought up is an example of this diversity, as you can see on any /k/ flame war (there is actually some debate on whatever le based trad russians are fighting woke EU or le based Ukronazis are saving the west from commie mongols)In my country's election you have 1 left-wing candidate and like 5 right wing ones (all the left-wing and fake right social democrats are not even running to help the left get reelected)
>>18691818The people behind these ideas are shown as le rational fedora atheists enlightened by their own intelligenceThen you look further into it and it is a bunch of gnostics, deists and neopagansEssentially the new age weirdos of their time
>>18691651I think it teaches that sometimes you need to rise upNot to abolish all elites, but sometimes a more competent elite is needed.
>>18691823I have been leaning right all of my adult life and I can tell you my experience is the opposite. The more to the right you go, the narrower the scope of opinions on common subjects. All right wing influencers (Owens, Tim Pool and even minor rightoid channels) are all selling mainstream Russian media reports re-packaged as profound insights. There are fake news Russia started peddling in 2011 that have largely been forgotten, only to be revived by the right wing "alternative media" ecosystem. On the other hand, the more to the left you go, the more genuinely diverse the opinions are because the left is inherently fractured in what their north star is. Is it a virtue? Probably not. Is the left better informed? Doubtful. But it's clear both wings are comparably shite at diversity of opinions besides allowing convenient conspiracy theories.
>>18691700People struggle with pirates because they want to rape, steal and sell people into slaveryWith foreigners peaceful contact is often possible, but issues may arise when cultures have different moral standards(IE one culture treats dogs as hecking furbabies, the other culture cooks dogs alive.)
>>18691824I suppose I can understand how they arrived at their notions by grasping in ignorance but the whole anthropology and history underpinning their ideas is complete nonsense. They were literally just making shit up and it sounded good to nascent ruling classes and we sort of just accept these ideas as founding fables today. New age weirdos is fitting.
>>18691834maybe it's just the bubble you were in.There are very ''far-right'' i may discuss why fascism and nationalism are actually revolutionary ideologies later) neonazis who were volunteering to fight in Ukraine even before 2022
>>18691813Switzeland
>>18691837I find it funny how nowadays even science is sort of confirming man's sinful nature and refuting Rousseau's ideas Evolutionary psychology basically argues for all sort of awful behaviors being natural instincts Studies aboutthe ''noble savage'' cultures show they had wars and many were complex societies before being depopulated by foreign diseases
>>18691847https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/economic-divide-how-equal-is-switzerland-s-wealth-distribution/47609892Switzerland is not a classless communist society Most of their income literally comes from banking
>>18691834>Owens, Tim PoolIf this is 'right' then God help us, for we need it greatly. Probably you need to pay less attention to modern internet grifters and go back a few centuries and read literary grifters.>>18691841>i may discuss why fascism and nationalism are actually revolutionary ideologiesBased. I have been on this kick for a little while. Nationalism is commie garbage. The whole notion of 'popular sovereignty' and the conflation of the state with the people is a hugely destructive fable that fucks people up in understanding states. As a bonus, pointing this out seems to piss off literally every one.
>>18691859If you read up about the Coalition Wars you will realize that revolutionary France was one of the first modern nation states spamming conscript hordesAside from being new age pagan weirdos, Nazis are an offshoot of 19th century German romantic nationalism which can ultimately be traced to the 1848 revolutions (just like Italian fascism)
>>18691862Ultimately a lot of modern ideologies (socialism, liberalism, fascism) are just new age freemasons poorly attempting to larp as Romans and GreeksAlthough Anglo liberalism also has medieval germanic roots that are overlooked
>>18691841Maybe. But if there are right wing influencers openly cheering for Ukraine, I'm not seeing them.>neonazisThose are everywhere and the right seems to have understood that pre 2022. Shapiro always had the "I'm jewish tho" card when people called out nazis in his audience, but when it comes to Zelensky conservatives collectively flush that card down the toilet.>>18691859>>Owens, Tim Pool>If this is 'right' then God help us, for we need it greatlyYou really do. The left has literal trannies that outperform the right wing media sphere.
>>18691895>media sphereI don't really think that is important. If grifting 'influencers' determine the future course of this society, I really don't give a damn what happens to it and it deserves everything that happens to it.
>>18691913We're not discussing the future of our society. The left and right have very little to do with that and media talking heads were always mostly retarded.
>>18691578>belongs to the right, who mainly house the red pilledThe right is more populist and more about feelings now than the left. What a weird thing to say. >Marxism Marxism is largely dead. The current populist right is closer to totalitarian communist dictatorships than anyone in the mainstream left or center.
>>18691848It's not sinful nature, it's humans acting like every single living creature on this planet.
>>18691788>>18691700Okay I'll answer, the reason people struggle with foreigners and pirates is because whenever you have wealth, and land that's basically openly inviting, you will naturally, as naturally as you would have flies in shit, have pirates and foreigners in your country and in your waters. It would then be the elites job to maintain a strong military for you, to deter these threats, and also maintain a strong devotion to protecting your people over the out groups. >>18691799Humans are animals, that's what I was trying to say before. The more you look at history, the more evident the fallen nature of man is, or should I say, the separation between the ideal world, and the animal, brutal world we live in, becomes apparent, and clearly unfixable via utopian plans. >>18691801Certain limits of speech that were poorly set? Like what? Is the free speech law in the American constitution set well or poorly? I think as soon as you censor speech based off intent like hate, you submit to emotional argumentation, which is a really terrible idea for open exchange between opposing parties. And having those laws be voted in democratically just leads to the tyranny of the majority, and also the wealthy who bankroll the politicians, and push for populism.Yeah, but even this level of discourse, in many, many modern liberal spaces is a rarity, it's mostly shoulder pats and purity tests. Those that do fall into this area in the right, like Maga, or fascistic groups, are from what I've seen, still able to talk openly about what they believe in to the people around them, even if it's drivel.
>>18691818>Reading history made me realize that the ideas of the Enlightenment, on which all modern states morally rest, are completely retarded.Yeah, the damage it did was irreparable for the west, it'll probably take a total collapse before we fix all the things it broke>>18691831Yeah, and to always be aware that the rebels will ninety nine percent of the time take power, and often be ruthless, and more extreme than those before them. >>18691831Yeah, and to always be aware that the rebels will ninety nine percent of the time take power, and often be ruthless, and more extreme than those before them. >>18691952Sorry, yes I feel that actually both sides are increasingly populist, and have little room for contradicting opinions, especially in americaBut Marxism isn't dead, all of feminist, LGBTQ, even environmentalist movements are lathered with Marxist readings of history, and full of wild Marxist solutions to those problems. Perhaps we have different definitions of the term though
>>18692032>Certain limits of speech that were poorly set? Like what?Like the threat of torture for opposing geocentrism.>Is the free speech law in the American constitution set well or poorly?We will see.>you submit to emotional argumentationI don't think you do. I think you can represent the restriction as though it were an argument, and it would fare poorly. Because it's not an argument. It's a restriction.>it's mostly shoulder pats and purity testsThat is fair. The right will wipe your opinion from their minds and consideration in 2 seconds whereas the left will never let you forget it.
>>18692033>But Marxism isn't dead, all of feminist, LGBTQ, even environmentalist movements are lathered with Marxist readings of history, and full of wild Marxist solutions to those problems. It's better to pretend those problems don't exist? There's no climate change and gays shouldn't exist? Because the current right became strogly anti-scientific about most issues.
>>18692033>But Marxism isn't dead, all of feminist, LGBTQ, even environmentalist movements are lathered with Marxist readings of history, and full of wild Marxist solutions to those problems. The right wing literally worships post-communist dictatorships now because they are more "trad". They are like New Left useful idiots from the 1960s and 1970s.
>>18691974Whatever you call it is still far from Rousseau's idea of human nature (inherently good man somehow creates an inherently evil society and corrupts itself)>>18692032At it's core those speech laws basically support punishing someone by what they might potentially cause, or by what people with allegedly similar ideas did (almost crossing the line into pre-crime, collective punishment)Even by a ''potential damage'' viewpoint it's still overly harshSpeeding kills infinitely more people than speech (hate crimes are a small parcel of murders and there are more car accidents than murders) and is generally only punished by a fine
>>18691578Yes, you cannot understand ancient Egypt without doing an extensive deep dive into the Egyptian religion since the line between culture and religion was far more blurry in the ancient world.
>>18692067There is nothing communist about those countriesThey are left-wing insofar as any fascist or liberal nation state is based on revolutionary ideologyAnd there is a lot of right-wing opposition to these countries in any case
>>18692079They are essentially a continuation of the Soviet Union with similar policies even. Modern rightoids would actually love commie countries. They constantly complain about the degenerate West, exactly like Soviet propaganda.
>>18692092What policies?Is it just generic authoritarian stuff they'd also have in common with Mussolini?AFAIK they are a capitalist country with private property
>>18692039I mean emotional argumentation within the law, aka pathos. As soon as you start censoring language based off whether you think it's hateful or not, you open up an endless list of arguments about what the parameters of hate are, and what the parameters of protected classes there are. Suddenly you're policing what can and cannot be said, based off a changing list of protected groups, managed by your government, and litigated over a court room. I'd rather just not involve those things and settle disputes in the forum, openly. >>18692056I believe both sides are incredibly unscientific, you can't get much more unscientific than Marxist dogma, and communist utopias. Should gays exist? I guess, I don't believe in forcing a gay person to be straight, but I do believe in openly investing time into the debate of whether sexuality is innate or circumstantial, open debate about the nature of homosexuality and it's adjacency to narcissism, sexual trauma, bullying, different childhoods, etc. not saying any of these are true and have a correlative effect, but I frankly don't see factual discussion of these issues in leftist spaces, not ones open to all opinions and positions. Does man made climate change exist? Is it an existential threat? What solutions do work? What solutions just look good on a leftist politicians campaign? The discourse of environmentalism would only benefit from seperation from socialist ideology>>18692067Who woulda guessed, morons fall for ridiculous propoganda from national that only try to export propoganda. Next you'll tell me moronic leftists worship foreign nations that are in complete political opposition to them, just because those nations tick a few boxes. >>18692073Agreed, I think a call to action being punishable is as far as it should ever go.
>>18692104It's not like feminism or LGBT wants to introduce planned economy, so why call them commie or marxist?
>>18692113>you open up an endless list of arguments about what the parameters>changing listsThat is how words and concepts work in general. None are static and virtually none are precise irl. Yet we have managed to pass quite a few laws using words and we seem to agree on an incredible amount of difficult-to-define things being not okay.
>>18692113>Does man made climate change existYes. It's the general consensus of climate scientists. It's not some socialist boogeyman.
>>18692113more importantly, is it even reversible?Are we just going to eat bugs for no reason?Are we supposed to stop having children for the climate?Is there even a reason to care for the distant future without them?
>>18691612But then you realize that class struggle is merely the child of racial struggle, and there is no class society that did not come about as a result of one one people conquering another
