What are your thoughts on it?
larp
Are you talking about sects or all the norse pagans?Whatever.I consider myself norse-finnic pagan.>Finns are completely different asian snownigger gook animistsI think way too many of the norse pagans make gods the center of their belief. Instead of making simple beer sacrifice to house tree and landvaettr to have a happy home, they constantly pray to gods for the simplest of things.But I guess that same thing was a thing even in pagan times.>>18699006It is larp until it isn't.Someone becoming christian is just as much larp as becoming a pagan.
>>18699065It's a larp because it's an inauthentic revival. Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Shinto, etc are not larps because they have survived continuously, passing their teachings and practices down directly in an unbroken line, even if certain teachings and practices were later altered and added by followers along the way. Norse paganism has no authenticity to it. There is nothing passed down, with all information and practices being interpreted from accounts written by Christians centuries after Christianization along with fragmented poems and archaeological finding.
>>18699076There are ton of christian sects that took the book and ran with it.Are those larp?
>>18699006/thread>>18699065It literally is LARP. Christians actually believe in God, neopagans do not believe their gods are real, most of them admit this explicitly.
>>18699109Partially.But at least the book has been assembled by christians, off their own materials, that they kept from antiquity.And the catholics and orthodox and other middle eastern christians are there to dunk on them, for it.
>>18699076Why is it authentic for a white man to worship a made up story made up by jews about a made up jew? Because some old nonce in a church has your silly little rituals down pat? Fuck off.
>>18699146>here’s my argument that proves Christianity wrong: Jesus was JewishYeah it’s inauthentic, you just hate Jews and Jew hate is not a foundation for a religion
>>18699134>And the catholics and orthodox and other middle eastern christians are there to dunk on them, for it.Lol no
>>18699120Christians believe in one specific depiction of god.Pagans do not think there is one true depiction of their gods.Interpretatio graeca is common among pagans.I for example do not separate Odin and Väinämöinen and consider two names and mythos to be only a cultural depiction of same deity.In a way I think christian god is semitic interpretation of highest being which many beliefs think to not directly interact with the world.>>18699134>PartiallySo paganism isn't a larp?There is surprising amount of christian mythology that most christians just straight up deny. Apocrypha they call it. If we collected all of the christian mythology in one place I think it would be bigger than Finnish database on Finnic mythos.I think pagan-christian mythos are especially interesting.In Finnic runes Jesus often replaces Lemminkäinen, Jesus also appears to be equated with the sun.In one the runes there is also resemblance to the Sampo which I think tells about how some people saw the Sampo.Belief is rarely tied to one specific interpretation.In christianity there are a ton of interpretation of interpretations interpretations.I would not consider that any different from modern neo-paganism.
>>18699151No, I mean neopagans literally explicitly do not believe their gods exist. There was an /asatru/ board on old 8ch, and there was a thread asking if they believed their gods were real, and everyone gave a variation on the answer “no”. One guy said the gods did not exist and were just allegories for nature and they just “respect nature”. They do not believe their gods are real in any sense.
>>18699158I literally believe Wotan is going to descend from a burning hole in the sky and destroy you
>>18699162This website is 18+ only
>>18699172>Wotan worship is popular with childrenLmao nice self-own, boomer
Väinämöinen will return soon.
I really wish Christianity never arrived on our shores, but yeah, reviving our old faith now is a cringy larp.
>>18699076this argument relies on catholic reasoning to make any sense since catholics are autistic about apostolic succession. the Gods hang above overhead, they did not change or die because that line of succession was severed. such lines can be rebuilt. you speak of religions as if they are corporations that need little titles of authenticity. all religions flow downwards from heaven, they are not created by man and do not rely upon man to exist. its called Asatru because the focus is being True to the Aesir. its not called Norsatru because its about being 100 percent authentic to 1000s norse religion. Odin is a high spirit, a force of nature, a transcendent being. he doesnt need a line of succession to revive a religion
>>18699158>there was a thread on /asatru/ 8ball a billion years ago where some people said thingslord you christians get more and more insufferable and full of shit every year. i remember /asatru/ better than you and i remember most people being pretty solid polytheists
>>18699720Strawman. Nothing to do with apostolic succession but rather authenticity through continuance with doctrines, beliefs, and practices passed down through centuries. Your own conclusion proves as much, that you have no authenticity to your beliefs but instead prescribe your own made up reasoning for what it means to worship the Aesir, beings you only know a little of due to Christian writings and fragmented archaeological findings, not due to any continuity from believers throughout the centuries like any real religion has. This is pure larping.
>>18699000Larp
>>18699749>Christian writingsnone of you faggots that say this have ever actually read the eddas or studied their origins in any depth. the texts were compiled and transcribed by christians, this is not the same as having being designed and written by christians. the linguistics of the poems are much older than their compilation date and the historical matters they deal with are even older, like the inclusion of attila the hun in the heroic lays of the poetic edda. they are not 'christian tales' just because they were recorded by christians, teutonic culture was preserved by our ancestors. why does the norse niflung cycle resemble the german nibelunglied if not so? lines of succession do not rely purely on covens of pedophiles like you christians, they can be transmitted through culture, language and folk traditions. i learned more pagan customs from my christian mother than i did christian customslet me just ask you a question: if christianity was utterly destroyed, even more so than norse paganism, would it still be the true faith? every single bible, and every page therein ripped to shreds, and every church reduced to rubble, and every priest slain and his writings thrown into the sea. would your jesus cease to exist? would your yahweh drop from the heavens and die? would you still believe it to be the true faith?
>>18699000>>18699749Study of related and ancestral traditions alongside Sturlurson, Adam von Bremen, Tacitus, paints a more complete picture than you give just the eddas credit for. We have Gods, mythos, philosophy, rituals. We have the genes.This is closest to my peoples way of life, so I'm faithful to it.
>>18699006Retard who believes in Abrahamic mythology as if it's "real history" thinks his opinion on paganism matters. Adorable!Who's larping exactly? The people recovering & reviving our ancestral spirituality from ancient history, or the people trying to worship the god of Israel through a dead rabbi? If you don't have Israelite ancestry then why would you ever let yourself believe in biblical propaganda?
>>18699749This is retarded fanfiction. We can tell that the poetic edda is substantially authentic to prechristian poetic traditions because many of its poems are independently attested in whole and in part in other sources, conclusively ruling out the dumbass talking point that clueless retards like yourself always parrot in pagan threads that the codex regius is a book filled with a bunch of random junk cooked up by some scheming christians
>>18699959>This is closest to my peoples way of life, so I'm faithful to it.Actually, that would be Christianity
>>18699798>if christianity was utterly destroyed, even more so than norse paganism, would it still be the true faith? every single bible, and every page therein ripped to shreds, and every church reduced to rubble, and every priest slain and his writings thrown into the sea. would your jesus cease to exist? would your yahweh drop from the heavens and die? would you still believe it to be the true faith?Yes, because such a thing is impossible if God is real. Any theistic religion that completely dies either is proven fake by its death or worshipped an uncaring god who couldn't have cared less about its death. The religion you practice is not the same religion as practiced by your ancestors, it is a modernist attempt at revival based on loose strands and you would be more authentic to your ancestors by being a Lutheran or a Catholic, as they all chose to be for centuries.
>>18700067Strawman and projection. The larper accusing fanfiction is cute.
>>18700082So why did you lose North Africa and the Levant to Muslims and why did the church lose its political authority to liberals?
>>18700095Was Christianity completely destroyed with every single Bible and page ripped to shreds and every church reduced to rubble and every priest slain in the world through the loss of North Africa and the Levant? No, it persists as the largest religion in the world. And still persists in North Africa and the Levant to this day even, in Egypt and Lebanon specifically. Unlike Norse paganism, which was totally erases by its own people in favor of Christianity.
>>18699000gay larp
>>18700072You're not fooling anybody by pretending you've never seen this illustration before
>>18700172No evidence of polytheism, let alone norse paganism specifically, being well over 100,000 years old, with the earliest evidence of polytheism being from Sumer, a non-European brown people. But good try, larper.
>>18700194That's okay, I can concede as much.Yamnaya are still almost six thousand years into the past. Sredny Stog potentially seven thousand. Sumerians were impressive people, I am interested in them, but religion itself still clearly predates them, and sacrifice predates them. I don't have to carry on the pollution of natural order because one of my forefathers was forced to.
>>18700194they were animists, the only true religion
>>18700082>>18699798Nope. Christ is Truth, whether He has one living believer or one million.
>>18699158False premise, but what's the difference between that and Christians larping that their religion has anything to do with Platonic theism?
>>18700194>no evidence for polytheism being over 100,000 years old>le sumerians invented polytheism cope>le sumerians were brown picrel is 40,000 years old and sumerians were white people
>>18699000Neat in small doses, but philosophically bankrupt and filled to the brim with crazy people who have identity issues. It's the White male version of tiktok healing crystal astrology hoe spiritualism.
>>18699065>Are you talking about sects or all the norse pagans?for the sake of discussion, you can expand it to all (germanic) pagans, which includes the norse.
>>18699076>Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Shinto, etc are not larps because they have survived continuously, passing their teachings and practices down directlyExplain to me the holly Christian practice of "Christmas".
>>18700028lol, good illustration!
>>18700968based, among the continental Germanics this monument symbolized the axis mundi set into place so that the worlds order is sustained and heaven and earth are connected much like the tree of Yggdrasil for the Norse, and other related traditions. Irminsul/Yggdrasil means order constructed from chaos, raised by Gods and emulated by men as a religious focus/idol. I understand it as symbolizing order/rta/Art in one object. The pillar that holds up the next world above ours, setting everything into place. Since chroniclers like Rudolf von Fulda concede erecting such pillars was a common practice among at least the Irmiones and those Saxon and Westphalian tribes, and the Irminsul at either modern day Paderborn or Obermarsberg was just the most magnificent and central to the Saxon people until its destruction. It's interesting to me because the construction of a pillar, that symbolizes the arrangement of the cosmos, on the occasion of a victory implies "triumph of order over chaos". I don't have a doubt in my mind that raising such pillars is beneficial to those who do so.
>>18700365Animists the longest? Sure. In what exact manner? We have no clue, but it certainly wasn't in the form of Norse paganism, let alone modernist Asatru.
>>18700973Re-read what was written
>>18701397it was something closer to norse paganism than to judaism or christianity. primitive monotheists are autistic retards who ignore all linguistic and archeological evidence. humans were polytheists long before they were monotheists
>>18699076>implying Christianity isnt an unbroken lineYou chriggers infight with yourselves constantly. And you also claim it to be the ultimate truth, but for some reason it only infected Europe, it didn't kill islam, it didn't kill Hinduism, buddhism, etc.Christianity didn't even spawn from your homeland. It never makes sense to me, why would you ever worship some foreign abhramic religion.Christianity is unironically the goyslop of religions
>>18701583>You chriggers infight with yourselves constantly. And you also claim it to be the ultimate truth, but for some reason it only infected Europe, it didn't kill islam, it didn't kill Hinduism, buddhism, etc.Irrelevant to anything I said.>Christianity didn't even spawn from your homeland. It never makes sense to me, why would you ever worship some foreign abhramic religion.Ask the spirits of your ancestors who widely embraced it without force.
>>18701609>Ask the spirits of your ancestors who widely embraced it without forceThe most popular Christian tradition is becoming an athiest.Almost like people are tired of worshipping this forced goyslop belief system psyop.
>>18701609You're completely and utterly retarded, no historical literacy.
>>18701397animism just means believing that everything contains spirit. the animals, the plants, water, storms, roggs, the planet itself. you can communicate with all of them and you can do it yourself without requiring a priest class or a holy book as an agent between yourself an spirit.it is perfectly compatible with both archaic human existence and a modern scientific worldview. you'll just say consciousness instead of spirit. sure, it'll be nothing like a pleistocene mammoth hunter would have done it, but it's the same basic worldview. germanic paganism is another layer of abstraction on top, assigning anthropomorphized deities to natural forces and adding mythology. Id say most people understand that, which is why its hard for most asatru to say they believe odin is a real entity and "critics" call it a larp
>>18701619The most common pagan tradition is becoming Christian. Follow your ancestors.
>>18701632Not an argument.
>>18701677The most common christian tradition is becoming Atheist. Follow your ancestors.
>>18701655It's not that difficult to believe Odin is a real entity, even if only removed from the literal myths read from Sturlurson. Odin can exist as a real entity in the form of the Skyfather, the primordial deity from when Manu split Yemo apart, and Odin is simply the Norse cultures individual perception of him and their interpretation of the Chinese whispers inherited from their proto-Germanic ancestors. The idea of Odin could be an interface and still represent a very real entity.
>>18699723>lordWho??
People like to shit on Finnic and Uralic paganism but to tell you the truth.They were closest neighbours of the norse.I remember reading on one of the assumedly norse worship site and it sounded exactly the same as uralic ones.I guess that worship enclosures in the woods were not that different among all the people across the world.
>>18700721>Sumerians were white peopleI remember I saw some Australian white nationalist record some video claiming this and laughed at how absurd and unnecessary such wuzzing was to his cause. It this something chuds actually believe?
>>18702526Lord, a title often given to deities other than yahweh. you know what 'Baal' means dont you?
>>18702844>christian posters side with brownsevery single time, like clockwork. its one of the easiest ways to reveal you brown shits for what you are
>>18702882not even a Christian lmao, this is my first post in the threadis laughing at wewuzzery “siding with browns” now? Do facts matter less than not “siding with browns?” Oh wait of course they do because paganiggers are all LARP
>>18703193>not a christian>paganiggersonly brown christcucks use forced terms like this, it doesnt even sound good. youre not very good at your masquerade
>>18703229>literally using the same statue argument that blacks use to justify being Pharaohs and Olmecs. Lmao
>>18703229>those big black monobrows
>>18703229This doesn't have much to do with asatru either
>>18699000I wish hellenic polytheists were as active as them. Gods its so hard finding people that want to be active in a polytheist Asatru or Hellenic group that wants to do stuff and wants to talk about it
>>18699000They larp as their ancestors.>>18699120This anon larps as a jew.Choose wisely.
>>18699134No, actually, most of the bible was written and assembled by pre-christian jews, and most of the new testament (a minority of the bible) was written by a genitally mutilated pharisaic rabbi mohel jew.>>18699147No, just a basic prerequisite.
>>18699158>neopagans literally explicitly do not believe their gods existThat's because you're a materialist pseudo-atheist and think that by "exist" one must be flesh and blood in the mortal world.
>>18700112>Unlike Norse paganism, which was totally erases by its own people in favor of Christianity.This literally has never happened and only rootless americans would ever think so.The Scandinavian national churches openly recognize all the syncretism they had to do, all the festivals they had to tolerate, all the customs that could not be eradicated and which remained part of religious life.And the state legally mandated church attendance for centuries, until one day it didn't, and then church attendance plummeted.
>>18701397>>18700194Norse paganism is a local expression of natural religion. The meme says "paganism", which is simply non-yahwist religion (ie. natural religion or animism). Paganism is as old as the first hominid burial and will continue to exist as long as we do.
>>18701179I've read somewhere that this concept might originate as far back as the Ancient North Eurasians.
>>18701609>your ancestors who widely embraced it without force.What if he isn't the descendant of jews or slaves from antiquity though?
>>18701685Nta, but Christians don't follow their ancestors, that's pagan. The lares and manes were banned by the church.They merely obey a genitally mutilated pharisaic rabbi mohel jew from Asia.
>>18702515Odinists really ought to read the continental sources. Odin is not Dyeus Pater, that's Thor.Odin is, in my humble opinion Quirinus and/or Dionysos.
>>18704382There was initially syncretism, as there usually is in cultures just converting to Christianity, which faded out into pure orthodox Christianity for centuries to come with no Norse pagans left, where even today the pagan population in Scandinavia remains positively minute and irrelevant, where even Catholics vastly outnumber them. Cultural practices remaining does not constitute religious belief, as Christianity has been very receptive with retaining cultural practices from Europe to the Middle East to the Americas among people converting to it. There is also zero evidence that religious belief in Scandivania only persisted through the centuries due to mandatory attendance and only began to decline with it ending, as decline came about along with the rise of materialism across Europe.
>>18704392Animist paganism, but not Norse polytheist paganism.
>>18704398If your ancestors were Europeans, then your ancestors were Christians. If your ancestors were not Christians, then they were not Europeans.
>>18704433>pure orthodox Christianity What is this meme lol?>with no Norse pagans leftWhen? Name a century, and I'll name the pagan practice.>the pagan population in Scandinavia remains positively minute and irrelevantI literally don't know a single person that has ever been asked his religious beliefs as part of some survey. Regardless, for Europeans, identity isn't some mcdonalds menu or IDpol plaything. A popular Danish church hymn praises pagan goddesses and spirits. It's more complex than binary-brained americans can fathom.>Cultural practices remaining does not constitute religious beliefYou talk of religion as purely a matter of belief. You are what you do, not what you believe. No man can truly claim to know the mind of anyone except himself, but we can certainly read about what other men did.>as decline came about along with the rise of materialismChicken and egg. It is just as easy to argue that if you mandate a single retarded religion, and then stop mandating it, people will become irreligious.But it doesn't matter, the point is that church attendance correlated directly with mandates.>>18704434Norse polytheism is animistic. The difference between polytheism and animism is academic at best, and even then just represents a clearer hierarchy of spirits, with formalized deities (the Æsir) ruling over lower spirits like Elves, Dwarves, Hobs, etc.>>18704435That wasn't the topic though. If your ancestors are jewish and/or slaves, they probably converted without force. Byt ever since christianity achieved (Roman) state power, all interactions with it have been in the light of overwhelming (Roman) force (military, economic, etc.).
>>18704405Actually Odin is Mercury.
>>18704462>What is this meme lol?Christianity in Scandinavia has been orthdox for centuries, not syncretic. This is objective fact. And in case you're not aware, orthodox Christian does not mean Eastern Orthodox.>When? Name a century, and I'll name the pagan practice.A cultural practice or genuine devotion? Because you seem to believe that the former equates to the latter which is fallacious. But sure, name the polytheists who practiced their faith in 1600s Denmark.>I literally don't know a single person that has ever been asked his religious beliefs as part of some survey.Your anecdotal experience is meaningless. Factually, there are no polls, membership rolls, surveys, or any statistics in any form that puts neopagans as more than a few thousand at best.>You talk of religion as purely a matter of belief.This is a weak copout. Yes, we cannot read anyones minds and cannot truly tell if professed Christians are truly Christians and not truly atheists, if neopagans are genuinely neopagan in faith and not still Christians who are just bitter, or if most people are all secretly Hindus despite claiming to be Christian, atheist, Muslim, etc. So we go by what we can determine, which is what people profess to believe in. Cultural practices without professed belief does not constitute belief, unless all Christians and even atheists who celebrate Halloween are actually Celtic pagans or anyone who says Thursday, the day of Thunor, must be a Germanic pagan, which by your flawed logic, they would be. >But it doesn't matter, the point is that church attendance correlated directly with mandates.Still a false-cause fallacy that also doesn't explain declines in nations without state churches during similar timelines, which suggests that the matter was never about mandatory service, nor does it explain belief in those same nations before where there still was not mandatory attendance.
>>18704462>Norse polytheism is animistic. The difference between polytheism and animism is academic at best, and even then just represents a clearer hierarchy of spirits, with formalized deities (the Æsir) ruling over lower spirits like Elves, Dwarves, Hobs, etc.Obviously the differences between all religious beliefs are academic. But putting animist and polytheist as one and the same is fallacious. We have more evidence for animism pre-history than polytheism, so suggesting that those pre-historical animists from 100,000 years ago were polytheists as well is flawed logic. Norse paganism as established by the Poetic Edda and Prose Edda, as well as by archaeological evidence, is not just animist but largely polytheistic.>That wasn't the topic though. If your ancestors are jewish and/or slaves, they probably converted without force. Byt ever since christianity achieved (Roman) state power, all interactions with it have been in the light of overwhelming (Roman) force (military, economic, etc.).The topic was that Scandinavians largely converted peacefully, which they did according to the established history we have. It wasn't a conversion by the sword in the majority of cases in both Scandinavia and even in Europe as a whole, with people willfully following their kings and chiefs in their own conversions. If that constitutes as violent conversion, then all religious conversion, and not just conversion but practice in general, across all of history were violent, as people more often than not followed the faiths of their leaders and communities.
>>18704501Not likely. Mercury's primary function is as a herald, a messenger and envoy of the highest god. The comparison to Odin is due to both being vaguely associated with the psychopomp role, but plenty of deities travel to the underworld and/or send mortals to the underworld. Mercury is hierarchically also very obviously a servant of Jupiter, whereas Odin is, in the Icelandic sources at least, seen as a rival to, vice-king of or even a superior to Thor.Compare that to Dionysos being Jupiter's heir apparent, the only one who can wield the Thunderbolt, and who takes the form of Saturn (Jupiter's father).Also, note Odin only sustaining himself on wine alone and Dionysus being the the wine grape itself, or Odin's mysterious self-sacrifice with some of the Eleusinian mysteries about Dionysus dying and being reborn. Or the famous "Odin id est furor" with the divine madness of Dionysus.You're presumably thinking of Germania, but Tacitus may be referring to Ing when he says the Germanics worship Mercury. We know that there was a large Germanic confederation called the Ingvaeones ('friends of Ing'), and he may be generalizing their cult onto the rest of the Germanics.
>>18704519Tacitus isn’t the only one to equate Odin with Mercury though. Jonas of Bobbio also equated the chief Germanic god with Mercury and he even gave his original Germanic name as Vodanus, which is clearly a Latinization of Odin’s Old High German name Wōdan.Similarly, the names of the days of the week in Germanic languages come from Roman tradition of naming the days after the seven classical planets. When the Germanic peoples adopted this system, they swapped the Roman gods with their Germanic counterparts and what do you know, Dies Mercurii (Day of Mercury) became Wednesday (Wōden’s Day).So yes, we can confidently say Tacitus was referring to Odin when he mentioned Mercury.
>>18704506>This is objective fact.Not even slightly. Even the national churches disagree with you.>A cultural practice or genuine devotion?Cope. Neither of us can claim to know what is genuine devotion either way, but we can speak to cultural practices, which religion is.>name the polytheists who practiced their faithGoalpost. I said that I'd name the pagan practice, so I'll respond as if that was the question:>in 1600s Denmark.Idolatry.>Your anecdotal experience is meaninglessDo you not know what "regardless" means?>So we go by what we can determine, which is what people profess to believe in. This is exactly how you got duped by yehudis to begin with. No, we go by what people do, not what they say.>Cultural practices without professed belief does not constitute beliefI have at no point agreed to discuss anyone's beliefs other than my own. I reject the premise.> atheists who celebrate Halloween are actually Celtic pagans You seem to like neat like boxes to put people in, but I've already attempted to explain that outside of America, that's not how the world works. Interacting with the dead is a pagan practice originally outlawed by christianity under penalty of death. But, since they couldn't prevent it, they eventually gave up and absorbed it, so to speak. So Halloween is a pagan practice: it originates in pre-christian gentile tradition.>that also doesn't explain declines in nations without state churches during similar timelinesThe conversation is about Scandinavia, I don't claim to know the intricacies of other regions.>nor does it explain beliefAt no point have I suggested that I am explaining belief.
>>18704462>you seem to believe that the former equates to the latter which is fallaciousJudeochristians will literally compare themselves favourably to you leading an orderly life without praying to Yeshuah because they feel "saved by him" while cultivating nothing but disorder themselves. Religion and culture being one is of course unthinkable to Christians but we should be able to understand how they revolve around each other. >It wasn't a conversion by the sword in the majority of casesThat's not true of course. From Olaf I. to Haakon "the Good", the massacre of Verden, the Northern Crusades, numerous revolts and rebellions all over northern Europe, it seems the only ones who wanted Christianity were Kings interested in politics with the formerly Roman territories.
>>18704507>Obviously the differences between all religious beliefs are academic.kek it's an English expression meaning that it is not of any real significance and largely theoretically.>But putting animist and polytheist as one and the same is fallaciousI didn't. I clearly explained the minute difference to you: it boils down to a matter of spiritual hierarchy.>Norse paganism as established by the Poetic Edda and Prose Edda,bruh what the fuck are you talking about?>is not just animist but largely polytheisticOf course. So it is also animistic. But again, you seem to enjoy these little labels you can split hairs about instead of dealing with the topic. I'll simplify the topic for you: paganism = gentile spiritual practice. As long as there have been gentiles, there has been paganism. So the only question is when did hominids develop spiritual practices? We don't know, but burial would be as good of an archaeologically detectable marker as any, and that happens to be about 100.000 BCE, making the meme pretty accurate.>The topic was that Scandinavians largely converted peacefully, which they did according to the established history we haveYou should be reading primary sources instead of making such a weak attempt at apologia on some mongolian basketweaving forum kekWhy don't you start with Charlemagne and Tryggvason, since they nicely bookend the whole project. You can also consider why you think Scandinavia has so many memorial markers for slain early christian missionaries.
>>18704530>Jonas of Bobbio>VodanusVodano, actually. I'll grant that that is most likely Odin, but all this indicates is that Jonas of Bobbio thought Odin was Mercury, which he may merely have deduced from the - at this point already established - weekday interpretatio system. There's no mythological or ritual comparisons made, which is the position that I'm arguing from.>WednesdayAs far as we know, this was done via interpretatio for the purpose of trade, not by gathering councils of thules and flamens and having them figure it out via comparative mythology.>we can confidently say Tacitus was referring to Odin when he mentioned Mercury.No, Tacitus wrote before any Vodano or Wednesday had come about, and he does not use any Germanic name for any of the Germanic gods, instead syncretizing them directly. We can't really confidently say anything about who Tacitus is talking about.Regardless, putting all this aside, all this can ever prove is that a few ancient sources thought that Odin was Mercury (others thought he was Mars) not that this would be a good fit from the standpoint of comparative mythology. Tyr is almost certainly not Mars either (as per the weekdays), and nor is Odin likely Mars (as per Adam of Bremen). People make mistakes, even in antiquity and the middle ages.
>>18704540I'm assuming this was for >>18704506?
>>18704570Both are associated with extensive travel, secret knowledge, magic, trickery, and a role in the guiding of souls. So mythological similarities between Odin and Mercury do in fact exist
>>18704570 (me)>Vodanus>VodanoI messed up my latin there for a minute. The text of course says Vodano, but I retract my "correction" that it wouldn't be Vodanus. I'm a latinlet.
All forms of paganism are fronts for gay polycules. Astaru are what the the Japanese call “bara” (fat slobs)
>>18704580You're posting as if I also haven't skimmed the wikipedia page. All of the above easily also applies to Dionysus (and many other gods):>extensive travelIndia>secret knowledge>magicEleusinian mysteries>trickeryKing Pentheus>guiding of soulsEleusinian mysteriesEasy.
>>18704583https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber_Gomorrhianus
>>18704597Damn already in the 11th century those Jew worshippers (who are Jewish, in a Semitic way) were persecuting your people.
>>18699000I understand the appeal on several levels, but it's ultimately mostly an invented tradition that has no gravitas behind it. Most people who profess it are probably weirdos too. I don't think it will play any notable part in the future of spiritual beliefs in the west.
>>18704610Is it a common trend for e-christians to be illiterate? The book decries same sex activity among the medieval christian clergy.
>>18704624>it's ultimately mostly an invented tradition that has no gravitas behind it.Exactly like christianity in the first and second centuries then?
>>18704627Yes, astaru polycules are far more open minded and loose sphinctered.
>>18704534>Not even slightly. Even the national churches disagree with you.Still objective fact. The national churches have been orthodox Lutheran Christians, not syncretic. >Cope. Neither of us can claim to know what is genuine devotion either way, but we can speak to cultural practices, which religion is.False. By no definition of religion does a mere cultural practice constitute a religious practice. Religions include cultural practices but among many other things such as spiritual beliefs, doctrines, symbols, ethics, rites, institutions, etc. Just as an ethical belief alone that may have been spread from a religion, does not make one religious for practicing it despite ethics being part of what constitutes religion and perhaps being from a religion, neither does a cultural practice alone, done for cultural means only without any religious devotion involved, make it a religious practice. Thus a Christian celebrating Halloween is not a pagan for it, an atheist celebrating Christmas is not a Christian for it, nor does saying goodbye (which comes from God be with you) make one a Christian, nor does saying Thursday make one pagan.>Goalpost. I said that I'd name the pagan practice, so I'll respond as if that was the question: False and projection. I told you there were no pagans, to which you changed the goalpost to cultural practices, to which I established that cultural practice does not constitute religious practice, which you have yet to prove otherwise. >IdolatryWhat idolatry? The decorative busts on Frederiksborg Castle? Come on, try a little harder, it can't be so hard to prove pagan belief in 1600s Denmark, can it? Proving Christian worship certainly is no trouble at all.>Do you not know what "regardless" means?Regardless of your regardless, your anecdotal experience remains wholly meaningless.
>>18704534>This is exactly how you got duped by yehudis to begin with.You mean how your people got duped? Since you were voluntarily Christians for centuries, who all abandoned their prior gods for Christ? >I have at no point agreed to discuss anyone's beliefs other than my own. I reject the premiseI accept your concession >You seem to like neat like boxes to put people in, but I've already attempted to explain that outside of America, that's not how the world works. Interacting with the dead is a pagan practice originally outlawed by christianity under penalty of death. But, since they couldn't prevent it, they eventually gave up and absorbed it, so to speak. So Halloween is a pagan practice: it originates in pre-christian gentile traditionFirst, who said anything about Americans? Strange goalpost. Second, the world doesn't work according to American views nor does it work according to your views either, but between the two, there is far more American cultural influence than your own peoples across the world, not that this has relevance to the discussion. Next, I literally said it came from pagans if you could read before responding. But as already stated, a Christian, Buddhist, or Hindu celebrating Halloween does not make them pagans for celebrating it, just because it was previously a pagan cultural practice, which you have argued multiple times now does make them pagan despite the lack of pagan belief or intent in the modern practice of Halloween. As stated before, this is illogical thinking and no, it does not match up with most of the worlds view.>The conversation is about Scandinavia, I don't claim to know the intricacies of other regions.And thus it remains a false-cause fallacy.>At no point have I suggested that I am explaining beliefAnd at no point did I ask you to explain belief, only further proving that your fallacy does not hold up logically.
>>18704628Yes, but christianity was an answer to the spiritual needs of the masses. I don't think asatru, modern or historical, is the answer to the needs of the masses 2026. The kind of people who are spiritual in the modern world will either gravitate to the traditional option of christianity, or separate into a thousand sects for every personal inclination, drawing inspiration from the entirety of world history. The kind of people who either find asatru an exact fit to their inclinations, or are spiritual and yet drawn to the ethnoreligion of asatru, are few.
>>18704633Christianity cannot be declared as orthodox (in the literal sense) when it is consistently forced to tolerate and absorb non-christian practices. This is not difficult to understand.>By no definition of religion does a mere cultural practice constitute a religious practice.You seem to have trouble with reading comprehension and/or enjoy arguing against non-existing positions.>Thus a Christian celebrating Halloween is not a pagan for itNever said he was, but Halloween is still a pagan practice.> I told you there were no pagansYour need for labels is getting boring. Of course effectively nobody is formally or officially pagan when it is illegal under penalty of death. There are no national socialists in the soviet union either. What we can observe in post-christianization Scandinavia, however, are pagan practices.>you changed the goalpost to cultural practicesNo, pagan practices.>What idolatry?Making a statue of your god is idolatrous and a pagan practice not found in the original christian practices.>Proving Christian worship certainly is no trouble at all.Proving communism in the soviet union isn't hard either, but neither is the topic.>meaninglessYour inability to learn from an anecdote is your own problem. If you want everything neatly peer reviewed and fed to you by the expertsTM, why exactly are you on this anonymous belgian wafflemaking forum?
>>18704551>kek it's an English expression meaning that it is not of any real significance and largely theoretically.Saying that the difference is of no significance is objectively false and ignorant on your end. There is a great difference, as animism and polytheism are not the same thing with minute difference between them such as, say, pantheism vs panentheism.>I didn't. I clearly explained the minute difference to you: it boils down to a matter of spiritual hierarchy.And I have explained that that is simply not true. It could be so in a specific iteration, but putting it as uninamously this way is contrary to the actual definitions of the animism and polytheism and completely unsupported opinion.>bruh what the fuck are you talking about?I know reason isn't a neopagans strong suit but do at least try to keep up with the discussion. The form of norse paganism that we all know of and think of is not the animism as practiced by prehistoric men in any way, shape, or form nor is there any evidence to suggest this. As originally stated, the argument that this has been the faith of the ancestors for over 100,000 is false. >Of course. So it is also animistic. But again, you seem to enjoy these little labels you can split hairs about instead of dealing with the topic. I'll simplify the topic for you: paganism = gentile spiritual practice.That is the topic. You're seriously at the point of complaining about discussing details of the topic at hand? Yes, pagans, which I never disagreed with. Norse pagans however, I did, as prehistoric men are speculated to have been some manner of animist, but not Norse pagan polytheists who worshipped the gods of the Proto-Indo-Europeans that spread to Germanic paganism. Attributing this as the faith of your ancestors for the last 100,000 years is erroneous, for all we know, you ancestors have gone through 1,000s of different faiths in the time it took to come to Norse paganism.
>>18704551>You should be reading primary sources instead of making such a weak attempt at apologia on some mongolian basketweaving forum kekWhy don't you start with Charlemagne and Tryggvason, since they nicely bookend the whole project. You can also consider why you think Scandinavia has so many memorial markers for slain early christian missionariesNot an argument. And slain Christian missionaries does not constitute violent Christian conversion. All historical evidence points to Christianization being largely peaceful and voluntary with a few violent incidents in between: https://historiska.se/en/explore-history/history-hub/when-scandinavia-became-christian/https://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-viking-age/religion-magic-death-and-rituals/christianity-comes-to-denmark/https://norse-mythology.org/the-vikings-conversion-to-christianity/
>>18704647>Christianity cannot be declared as orthodox (in the literal sense) when it is consistently forced to tolerate and absorb non-christian practices. This is not difficult to understand.By this logic, no form of orthodox Christianity, be it Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Lutheranism, Anglicanism, etc is actually orthodox. This opinion is not accepted at large and hasn't been since well before the Viking age itself.>You seem to have trouble with reading comprehension and/or enjoy arguing against non-existing positions.You seem to have trouble making rebuttals, because guess what? This ain't an argument, just an ad-hominems. Fallacies do seem to be your go to.>Never said he was, but Halloween is still a pagan practice.Was>Your need for labels is getting boring. Of course effectively nobody is formally or officially pagan when it is illegal under penalty of death. There are no national socialists in the soviet union either. What we can observe in post-christianization Scandinavia, however, are pagan practices.I accept your concession that were no pagans, only practices of pagan origin. Why you felt the need to make it so longwinded is beyond me.>No, pagan practices.No, cultural practices that no longer had pagan belief attached to them.>Proving communism in the soviet union isn't hard either, but neither is the topic.It is, as your attempted to rebuttal my claim that there were no pagans and failed to do so fantastically.>Your inability to learn from an anecdote is your own problem. If you want everything neatly peer reviewed and fed to you by the expertsTM, why exactly are you on this anonymous belgian wafflemaking forum?Not an argument.
>>18704642I don't disagree, but history repeats. The raceblind zionist yet (allegedly) spiritual people will become christians and eventually non-White, the spiritual chuds will become pagans of some kind and remain White. This mirrors what happened to jews: the raceblind ones became the first christians and mixed with gentiles, eventually disappearing entirely, while the racist ones held on to their ethnic pecularism and remained jews in both race and culture (as recent as it was back then).Only the latter category endures when faced with threats to their identity and amalgamation into larger populations (which is the situation WW2 and the subsequent modern transportation technology has put the entire White race in).Now wouldn't it be poetic if this ecclectic myriad of different pagans eventually formed a collective, and convinced some powerful but demographically and politically troubled state to unify the people with it? Who will be our anti-Constantine?
>all the violent uprisings, religiously motivated violence and laws punishing religious practice by penalty of death are NOT arguments for the violent conversion of Europe, those Ásatrúar who were killed by their traitorous leaders died voluntarily and peacefully
>>18704673We can only dream.I wouldn't rule it out entirely that a panwhite ideology forms and creates its own, novel set of traditions, that both resonates with the modern white populace and has answers to their needs. It would be sorely needed. Albeit, whether we would call it asatru, I don't know. That one is a not just a white but specifically a germanic-nordic tradition. The white ethnoideology needs to encompass all europeans and their diaspora including celts, latins and slavs.
>>18704660>violent but mostly peacefulOkay, we're at CNN levels of gaslighting now kek
>>18704679kek ikr
Where I'm from Christians used to set the houses of their Asatru neighbours on fire while they were sleeping, I think that was around 700 ce
>>18704686I fully agree. I think it is unnecessarily niche and insufficiently documented, and I say this as a Scandinavian. In my household, we are quite literally Romanized (and by extension, Hellenized) Nordic-Germanics. We keep many of the Nordic-Germanic practices going, like Hobs ("Nisser") for Yule and votive offerings to the Elves and so on, but the higher theology is Homeric. Among educated Europeans, seeing ourselves as heirs of Greco-Roman culture has been the norm for centuries until about WW2. I was read Homer (and the Edda for that matter) as a kid.I would (and have) bet on that model for the future. Germanics/Slavs/Meds should keep practicing Germanic/Slavic/Med customs for their dead and their household gods, but given their lack of extant higher theology, they ought to adopt the best documented, most widespread and already integrated one that is closest to their own ethnos, and in all cases, that is Homer.
>>18704688Neopagans and their victims complexes.Since you're slow, I'll make an analogy. Say, 40,000 people peacefully convert to worship of Bob The Builder gradually over 300 years, and in that time frame, 140 people kill each other over conversions in one year. Looking back on conversions as a whole, would you conclude that it was violent or would you conclude that it was peaceful? Obviously not actual figures, just an analogy. The history shows that Christianization of Scandinavia was by and large peaceful, mundane, and often opportunistic, but rarely ever forced.
>>18704712>Neopagans and their victims complexes.Holy projection from the proxy-jews, batman!
>>18704714Your ancestors worshipped Christ and embraced him willfully :)
>>18704702Where we're going we don't need theology my man. God is dead, technology has killed him. The big questions of the future are different, and the answers must be different still.
>>18704718That's unlikely, historically speakingAlso most of his ancestors didn't, right? You can barely refute 100k years, let alone the more modest 8k.
>>18704718Yeah, the story they were sold was a mimesis of Dionysus et al retold by Germans which gave them access to the Roman trade network and didn't require giving up any of their practices (for a few generations at least). I might have converted too under those conditions, but nowadays the bible is freely available to peruse and I'm not a jewish supremacist who hates my gentile family and wants to die childless, and I feel fairly confident in saying that neither were my ancestors.And also>ancestorsSee >>18700172
>>18704726Christfags said the same when they took over, and yet here we are, two thousand years later, still reading Homer, dancing around trees and giving votive offerings to the dead.Jupiter is Optimus Maximus no matter how many satellites we put in orbit around his namesake, and I highly doubt that you can sustain a culture on technological progress alone.
>>18704749 (me)>two thousand years later*1644 years after the Altar of Victory was taken down and Rome subsequently fell
>>18704749You seem very convinced of your greco-roman theology so maybe there is something there that you cannot convey in 4chan messages and I could not understand in my current state of sleepiness.
>>18704732It's only unlikely if your ancestors were not Scandinavians. If they were, they willfully embraced Christianity. Remember, each line you go back in ancestry equals another two parents and four grandparents multiplied again and again with pedigree collapse at several points due to the same people inbreeding and bringing the tree branches back together. Even if your ancestors only converted to Christianity in 1100 AD, that's still a massive number of ancestors you're spitting in the faces of. So the whole "I'm honoring my ancestors" shtick is BS. You're spitting on your ancestors.And I already refuted it. They were not Asatru neopagans let alone Norse polytheists for over 100,000 years. There is no evidence to back that assumption. The faith they likely held would look completely foreign to Asatru and is unlikely to have been polytheistic, with likewise no evidence that whatever beliefs they held naturally evolved into Norse paganism without infusion of foreign beliefs into it, which is highly likely. Believing in Asatru is whatever, who cares. You're edgy with your Thors hammer necklace and rune tattoos, cool. But believing in it because you think it represents 100,000+ years of ancestors is straight up nonsensical.
>>18704782No, I don't have to live in pollution because some forefather of mine was forced to at knifepoint. The European branch of Aryan religion is my ancestral faith. No amount of kvetching changes this past.
>>18704735Scandinavians were pagan for over 200,000 years before Christianity
>>18704802My nigga in Christ, nobody lived in Scandinavia 200,000 years ago.
>>18704765I am indeed, but my arguments are merely descriptive.>>18704809And yet the ancestors of Scandinavians existed, and they were neither jews, nor christians, nor muslims, nor anything that pointed the way to those religions. Ipso facto, they were pagans.
>>18704782>a massive number of ancestors you're spitting in the faces of.Your jewish scripture has Christ saying that you cannot follow him without hating your father.So by your logic, either way some ancestors are getting spat on. I pick the lesser of the two evils (less ancestors being spat on, zero jews being obeyed).A Russian nationalist might go against his recent communist past to honor his infinitely deeper Russian past. Choosing the lesser evil to cease perpetuating a greater evil is an easy choice.
>>18700028Apparently, that's not what your ancestors believed. That is an anachronism at best.
>>18699000The thing with any flavor of Neo-Paganism is that it's more like a fandom than a religion. The Neo-Pagans who admit that it's a reconstructionist religion and are like "so what" I have some respect for the ones who believe in some version of a "burning times" mythology or some other "Zeitgeist" level conspiracy theory I have no respect for. The whole New Atheism thing is on its way out and space aliens, California Dharma, and Neo-Paganism are going to replace it.
>>18704834>some version of a "burning times" mythology or some other "Zeitgeist" level conspiracy theoryqrd?
>>18704718willfully and willingly aren't synonyms, ESL-kun
>>18704908Not an argumenthttps://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/willfully
>>18699000>WEbut cringe, formerly addicted to meth, and half Irish
>>18699065>I consider myself norse-finnic pagan.you can just say faggot
Thoughts on the Athens declaration, or the ECER in general?>https://ecer-org.eu/the-athens-declaration-of-the-european-congress-of-ethnic-religions-2025/I see that one Norwegian organization is a member, and a further 3 Germanic ones are observers.
>>18705299I really wonder how they're going to navigate not being legally dismantled for being racist anti-semite nazis in current year.In Germany at least, that's a non-starter. They've thrown people in jail for less.
>>18705311Speaking of Germany I see there used to be German members and observer parties.>eldaring>germanische GlaubensgemeinschaftI wonder why they left or if they are defunct now.
>>18704836NTA, but The Burning Times are a Wiccan/feminist witch meme, their version of the Holocaust. Once Wicca spread among Jewish American women, they made it all about fighting patriarchy and started whining about muh 9 million burned witches.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K_g-5FEKLU&list=RD-K_g-5FEKLU&start_radio=1
>>18705299>>18705311I checked the local observer org, and was hopeful because it calls itself "politically neutral" and doesn't have any pictures of rainbow flags or whatever, but then I found the part that says something like "the use of heathen symbols in connection to nazism is not tolerated for members". So it's the usual gatekeeping.>we love our ethnic faith but we would never do a thing to protect it and disavow anyone who ever has, particularly if they were mean to the people whose stated goal is the eradication of our ethnic faithW*men need to be removed from politics.
>>18705324That sounds extremely cringe. I understand better why Americans have such strong reactions to anything they even remotely associate with their own cringe versions of paganism.>>18705323They've presumably been gulagd by the federal authorities. A few years ago there was a big police raid that targeted several of these orgs.
>>18705327Depending on the locality this could be a literal legal requirement or practically a legal requirement lest they get "dismantled". It seems eldaring left in 2009 because of said hecking ariosophy. Then the ECER added such a disclaimer against it in 2010 but it still didn't get those mopey Germans back. Looking into eldaring they started as a branch of the "troth", iirc that's a complete faggot org so that would track.
>>18699000I've yet to see a revival of paganism that isn't cringe, basically operates on christian/leftist moral principles, gigalarp, infantile and associated with all types of degeneracyTotal crosscuck social contagion victoryMaybe the nazis could if they won
>>18705338Atheism is the closest thing since it was popularized by europeans, I sympathize with pagans but their aesthetics are bad and they are unserious
>>18705342>Atheism is the closest thingTo what? Atheism is christianity +1 step. It is the thing furthest from the 'all things are full of gods' of the pre-christian worldview.>>18705338100% Agreed. Be the change you want to see in the world. If the theism is difficult to do as a post-christian or post-atheist, start smaller. Bring gifts to your forefathers, obey your father, and read Aesop and Homer to your children.
>>18705334>this could be a literal legal requirement or practically a legal requirement lest they get "dismantled".Specifically in my country I'm pretty sure they'd be fine without such a disclaimer. But maybe the EUfags are meddling.>ariosophy>eldaringThanks for the dig and loredump. I wonder what the point of the ECER is then? Maybe just to create a lightning rod to draw in vaguely ethnocentric pagans and keep them from radicalizing further into muh hecking nazism?I mean... how are you going to get ethnocentrics who are anti-tanakh and refuse to worship the jew god to not drift into dangerous chud territory?
>>18699076Christianity is the biggest LARP of all time.
>>18700172It's worse than that because most Europeans didn't convert until 800-1000 AD
>>18701583What a retarded chart. The "Heretical/Schismatic Groups" is defined entirely by branches that already split off.
>>18705378I see its member organizations are mainly Lithuanian, Greek, Italian, Polish, Ukrainian.They keep publishing declarations demanding their equality to monotheistic religions before the law and such things. I don't think they can accomplish anything as of now, but at least there is such an advocacy group. I haven't seen anything bad from them. Even that disclaimer calls out ariosophy and occultism as off-topic new age inventions, not just because they're not kosher.>Germanische Glaubensgemeinschaft>https://altheidentum.beepworld.de/I can't find out why they're not with the ECER anymore, but it's literally some retards cult who declared himself high priest of the Gods, probably from his own living room.
