>Exodus didn't happen according to many historians>But Moses's name is foreign/Egyptian>Doesn't matter ancient authors knew foreign names and could apply them to fictional characters to make them sound foreign, like the name "Paris" for the prince of Troy being of Luwian origin>Oh wait Troy actually existed and there was a historical ruler there whose name was Alexandrus which is a common alternative name for Paris in the Homeric Epics and he was part of a war with the Greeks>Similar kinda thing happens for Gilgamesh btwSo if historians are repeatedly wrong about ancient stories being mythological, what makes you think they're right about the Exodus being fiction?
>>18699237Youre right and also wrong Exodus IS a myth because it is fiction (you've never seen the sea part and such in reality)... however it is based on historical facts (the liberation of the slaves). Youre also right on Moses probably not being called moses on another culture because God names people according to their purpose (jesus "government name" was yeshua but his "biblical" name is emmanuel, both with different meaning pointing towards the same thing). Jesus himself repeats this by giving nicknames to his followers, renaming them upon their rebirth.
>>18699237>And THAT is why you should believe a guy swam around in a fishes belly for days and daysNo
>>18699237We already know the historical basis for the Exodus, Jews didn’t like it though, so they deny it’s related.Look up the Hyksos, they were a semitic peoples from the Levant who conquered Egypt in the 17th century BC and ruled over as their 15th dynasty before eventually getting expelled around 1550 BC. Many scholars believe that the Exodus is based on a cultural memory of the Hyksos’ expulsion (in-reverse) and that the Hyksos were one of the groups who contributed to the ethnogenesis of the Israelites. After all, there was Hyksos pharaoh named Yaqub who is likely the historical basis for Jacob.Similarly there’s also the “Shasu of Yahweh,” a nomadic tribe from Midian who apparently worshiped Yahweh. Around the 12th century BC, a Shasu warlord named Irsu invaded Egypt, plundered their temples, and “treated the gods as men” (i.e. forbidding their worship). Eventually the Shasu were expelled to the Levant and it’s theorized that not only they also contributed to the ethnogenesis of the Israelites and imported the worship of Yahweh into the Levant, they were also eventually conflated with the Hyksos at some point as evidenced by Manetho. Manetho recorded all this in his now-lost Aegyptiaca and explicitly equated Irsu (whose name he rendered in Greek as Osarseph) with Moses. While admittedly he did confuse the Shasu of Yahweh with the Hyksos, his account is still far more accurate to history than the biblical version.
>>18699377The funny thing is that even Flavius Josephus agreed the Hyksos were the Israelites, but he tried to argue that the Egyptians were just lying about them being foreign tyrants since that goes against the Biblical narrative.Unfortunately for Josephus however, archeology has shown the Hyksos were indeed foreign tyrants expelled from Egypt after a revolt, not escaped slaves.
>>18699237>>18699377it actually goes like>semitic nomads migrate into Egypt and become wealthy rulers over time (Joseph going to Egypt and gaining favor with Pharaoh and moving his family there)>these become the Hyksos who eventually rule over half/two-thirds of Egypt from Avaris (Jospeh being granted secondary rulership of Egypt by Pharaoh and owning all the grain and livestock)>eventually Kamose tries and then Ahmose succeeds in rising against the Hyksos and expelling them due to the Hyksos increasingly taxing imports from the other side of Egypt ("Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph. And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we: Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land." - Exodus 1)>a long period of expulsion begins - an Exodus - during which the Egyptians re-take control of Avaris and subjugate the semitics still living there in the process (the Hebrew slaves in Exodus/the leper colony in Manetho's account)>at some point, a former Egyptian court priest of semitic/Kenite origin - [deity name]mose - leads the semitics out from Avaris to follow the rest of the Hyksos through the Sinai into Canaan after discovering his own heritage and deity of his ancestors (Moses)>the Hyksos were/had become Canaanite deity worshippers and equated Baal-Hadad with Set, and continued to retain this culture after expulsion when re-integrating back into Canaan despite internal conflict with the YHWH worship of Mose and his ancestors (probably Kenites from Midian) (the Golden Calf)>over time the Hyksos/semitics-from-Egypt became raiding nomads back in Canaan taking cities and became known as the Shasu of YHWH when the Midianite factions religion became dominant over the Baal/Set worshippers (Joshua, Judges)>Kingdom of Israel
>>18699435>I trust AIBtw the KJV hates you and you're going to burn in hell. :)
>>18699237keep coping christcuck
>>18699237Literally NOTHING from exodus was written down by the Egyptians who recorded a lot of shit in autistic detail, down to taxes owed and annual harvests.No dead first borns, no frogs from the sky, no Nile filled with blood, none of it.
>>18699435This is historical fan fiction for the following reasons:• Timeline breaks: Hyksos expulsion ≈1550 BCE; biblical Exodus dates (1 Kings 6:1) ≈1446 BCE; Ramesses-era reading ≈1200s BCE. These don't sync — the theory needs all three to be one event. • Direction is backwards: Hyksos were expelled as a defeated ruling/military class after ~100 years in power. Exodus describes an enslaved underclass leaving after generations of forced labor. Can't be both the overthrown rulers and the freed slaves. • Manetho isn't independent evidence: written ~1,200 years after the Hyksos, hostile to Semitic peoples, and his Osarseph story is generally read as a polemical inversion of an already-circulating Exodus tradition — not confirmation of it. • Shasu of Yhw doesn't link to Hyksos: those inscriptions (Soleb, Amarna period, 14th c. BCE) describe a nomadic group near Seir/Edom over a century after the Hyksos expulsion — evidence of a Yahweh-linked group in the southern Levant, not returning Hyksos rulers. • Habiru ≠ Hebrews: 'apiru is a social/economic label (displaced laborers, outlaws, mercenaries) used across the Near East for many groups, not an ethnonym for early Israelites. Most Egyptologists reject the strict equation. • No Egyptian record of mass departure: Egypt kept detailed records through this whole span; no text describes a Hebrew-scale slave population leaving at any candidate date
>>18699237>>But Moses's name is foreign/EgyptianAlready posted this in another thread somewhere. It's "Moshe" in the Hebrew text. And it's a pun. >And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son. And she called his name Moses, and said: 'Because I drew him out of the water.' --Exodus 2:10"Drawing something out" sounds like "Moshe" in Hebrew. That's the origin of the name. The Egyptian princess speaks Hebrew because the story was written by Hebrews for a Hebrew audience.
>>18699646They were embrassed, bro.
>>18699714It's a folk etymology. Pretty common in ancient authors and texts. Josephus and Philo are littered with false and folk etymologies. Moshe wouldn't be the correct form of the verb Mashah because it looks active, as in "he who draws out". Instead we would expect the form "Mashuy", "the one drawn out", to be his name if it were genuinely derived from Mashah. On top of that, other people related to Moses possess what appear to be Egyptian derived names e.g. Aaron, Miriam, Eleazar, Phinehas. Scholars have long recognized that the name Moses is derived from the Egyptian suffix "mose" and it appears in the names of many famous Egyptian leaders, "Ramses", "Thutmose". This suggests that the character of Moses was known through oral tradition before the Torah was written and the Hebrews just forgot where his name actually came from (Egypt), so they tried to etymologize it with a verb from their own language.
>>18699237The Iliad IS fiction, you utter dolt
>>18699655>the theory needs all three to be one eventit doesn't. Only with sola scriptura of ALL of the OT does it need this. There is a majorly important detail that you keep overlooking in regards to this, everything you bring up the fact that the Exodus is supposedly from the Ramesses era: this is based on the fact that Exodus describes the location that the Hebrew slaves were building in as Pi-Ramesses, and so the argument goes 'Pi-Ramesses was built in the era of Ramesses 1200s so it can't be about the Hyksos at Avarisexcept, anonPi-Ramesses IS in Avaris. It's the SAME location. It would be like if someone wrote a text about where some native Americans lived and it said 'they lived in the region of New York and built homes there;' it wouldn't mean that they actually built New York city or that NY already existed yet.i.e. the text saying they built 'Ramesses' is an interpolation to let the Hebrew audience know where it was, since Avaris no longer existed at that point.Furthermore, Exodus also says they built Pithom - now the odd thing here is that Pithom is actually way more ancient and long predates Pi-Ramesses, and in fact its exact location was and is unknown.Perhaps what actually happened is that in the immediate aftermath of the Hyksos being driven back out of Avaris, the semitic peoples remaining there were subjagated and commision with rebuilding Avaris, after Ahmose had just sacked it, and this is what the slave labor and building - at the site that would include and become Pi-Ramesses centuries later- actually was.>Can't be both the overthrown rulers and the freed slaves.they can if the Exodus was not a singular event but a gradual expulsion i.e. Avaris is sieged and razed by Ahmose, the Hyksos ruling class is driven out, their immediate supporters (and firstborn(?)) massacred, and the semitic citizens suppressed and forced into rebuilding the city as an Egyptian and not Hyksos-ian city - and then these people were let go
>>18699768It appears in the names of Pharaohs, because it means "Born of <insert god>". As in Ramose, meaning "Born of Ra". Mose on its own would be a nickname at best, just meaning "child".
>>18699800Yeah that's where the mystery is. We don't know what, if at all, the prefix of his original name might have been.
>>18699775The Iliad is myth, but has a historical kernel to it.
>>18699795>There is a majorly important detail that you keep overlooking in regards to this, everything you bring up the fact that the Exodus is supposedly from the Ramesses era: this is based on the fact that Exodus describes the location that the Hebrew slaves were building in as Pi-Ramesses, and so the argument goes 'Pi-Ramesses was built in the era of Ramesses 1200s so it can't be about the Hyksos at AvarisThe Bible also simultaneously claims the Exodus happened in 1446 BCE based on 1 Kings 6:1 which claims the Exodus happened 480 years before the construction of Solomon's Temple.
>>18699237There's more evidence that I'm related to King Tut and Akhenaten than there ever being an exodus out of Egypt.
>>18699655>Shasu of Yhw doesn't link to Hyksos: those inscriptions (Soleb, Amarna period, 14th c. BCE) describe a nomadic group near Seir/Edom over a century after the Hyksos expulsion — evidence of a Yahweh-linked group in the southern Levant, not returning Hyksos rulers.The Hyksos and associated people lost their identity as Hyksos when they integrated back into Canaan over a century and their descendants became wandering brigand nomads who came to worship YHWH;the fact that the Hebrews are describing as inexplicably wandering in the wilderness for forty years in the Biblical account - despite the fact that it definitely doesn't take forty years just to cross through Sinai from Egypt into Canaan - could actually be some kind of poetical attestation to them being in a cultural decline and losing their identity until they rediscover their Levantine heritage and Yahwaic religious ancestry from pre-Egypt (if you assume that Moses/Mose's ancestors were culturally Kenite YHWH worshippers from Midian)>Habiru ≠ Hebrewsit sounds etymology too similar that you can't just dismiss it like this>a social/economic label (displaced laborers, outlaws, mercenaries) used across the Near East for many groups, not an ethnonym for early Israelitesfrom the Egyptian POV they assign the 'Shasu of YHWH' (the long lost Hyksos descendents wandering in Canaan) the label Habiru because they have become raiding nomads looting cities (like how the Hebrews are in fact described in the Biblical account when they get to Canaan such as sieging Jericho) and then over time the Shasu of YHWH simply apply this Habiru term to themselves but re-appropriate it as a ethonym, perhaps after clashing with Egyptian traders and garrisons since Egypt rules the Levant by this point, which becomes the name Hebrew eventually (much like slurs being re-appropriated in modern times by the group they are applied to and losing the original meaning)>No Egyptian record of mass departurethe Hyksos are recorded
>>18699805What do you think the historical kernel the Moses story is?
>>18699802Wouldn't the real name of the most important figure in Judaism be mentioned in full?
>>18699841Jews being pissed about getting exiled, duh
The bare bones of a Mosiac figure isn't that absurd to think believed many years ago from a pure HCM perspective
>>18699486>KJV hates youHow cana translation of a book hate someone? You are deifying it.
>>18699655>Timeline breaks: Hyksos expulsion ≈1550 BCE; biblical Exodus dates (1 Kings 6:1) ≈1446 BCE; Ramesses-era reading ≈1200s BCE.Why should it matter if it happens a few century afterwards or before? The people writing the story don't remember every detail correctly and it's transmitted through myths.
>>18699655>Habiru ≠ Hebrews: 'apiru is a social/economic label (displaced laborers, outlaws, mercenaries) used across the Near East for many groups, not an ethnonym for early Israelites. Most Egyptologists reject the strict equation.Maybe some of the apiru later joined what later became the israelites or judeans and they took the name of the habiru/apiru and their myths and history were preserved through the Joshua story? > Direction is backwards: Hyksos were expelled as a defeated ruling/military class after ~100 years in power. Exodus describes an enslaved underclass leaving after generations of forced labor. Can't be both the overthrown rulers and the freed slaves.The post you replied to didn't say that the Exodus is a historical document but based on some real events
>>18699768I think Moses is supposed to be Irsu and perhaps the semties in the levant called him Moshe or something similar as a reference to the -moses (son of) endings of pharaohs to call him a pharaoh.
>>18699897that anon interprets Jesus being the Word of God to mean that he is literally the book itself for some reason and that the KJV Bible is the only true word in particular for some reason
>>18699243>>18699377According to Islamic historiagraphy the actual exodus was only a few hundred Jews. That makes more sense than the traditional narrative.The Hyskos are claimed to be Canaanites though. That said, I do think Josephus was onto something there.
>>18699237Wasn't the exodus story created when Jews were slaves of Babylonians?
>>18699383Archeology has also shown that the Hyksos were not Jews at all (the Jews not even existing yet).
>>18699237One of the ancient historians (Strabo or Flavius Josephus) wrote that the Ionians (then Danaans) came to Greece from Egypt. They were some of the Israelites who left Egypt before the Exodus. And to clarify - modern Jews are Edomites, the descendants of Esau, Jacob/Israel's brother. The true Israelites are us, whites. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKpJB2vmhkgThere's a neat PDF in this video's description, with sources, showing how it all happened.
>>18700928That's the common theory.The Moses basket in the river story is pretty much identical to the story of the legendary ruler Sargon of Akkad. Akkad being a predecessor empire to Babylonia and the subsequent Neo-Babylonian Empire, where the Jewish elites were in captivity.It's possible parts of the Exodus story were based on other earlier stories though. Some of which might be historical.
>>18701146>in the river story is pretty much identical to the story of the legendary ruler Sargon of AkkadThat story with Sargon in the basket a much later story that appeared centuries even a millenia after his death. I think both of these stories could be based on some earlier myth about another persons whose myth got lost in time, maybe of some kingdom or tribe whose name got lost in time.
>>18700212That's a lot worse than what muslims do.Book worshippers.
>>18699897John 1:1.>>18701213You're going to hell. Tick tock. >>18700212The KJV is God because John 1:1 explicitly affirms it. Enjoy hell.
>>18699890I think some biblical stories including the Exodus are based on mythologized history. It's a bit similar to the Nibelungenlied and the Volsunga Saga.It's based on the court conflicts of the merowingians. It also has some other historical characters in it like Odoacer and Attila.The german Nibelungenlied is a medieval romance story. The scandinavian version the Volsunga Saga adds the norse Gods to it, some characters even become the children of Gods.The same happened here. It's based on folk memory that got changed over time of the jews. The storyteller adds God and other supernatural stuff to the narratives.
